Comments on: The Church In the Community http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2007/12/02/the-church-in-the-community/ Engaging the depths of God and life in the Kingdom Thu, 24 May 2012 06:59:53 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Joe C http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2007/12/02/the-church-in-the-community/comment-page-2/#comment-32419 Joe C Wed, 05 Dec 2007 03:24:07 +0000 http://christianresearchnetwork.info/2007/12/02/the-church-in-the-community/#comment-32419 Chris L, That was an awesome article you wrote on the subject of PD/FW. Blew my mind up. I had long suspected a concept such as that. Thanks, Joe Chris L,

That was an awesome article you wrote on the subject of PD/FW.

Blew my mind up. I had long suspected a concept such as that.

Thanks,

Joe

]]> By: Joe C http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2007/12/02/the-church-in-the-community/comment-page-2/#comment-32413 Joe C Wed, 05 Dec 2007 02:55:45 +0000 http://christianresearchnetwork.info/2007/12/02/the-church-in-the-community/#comment-32413 SJW, Please write, study, and pray your heart out. I highly encourage this in all of us. I'm simply just saying, let's not put God's perogatives, will, and power in a box. God can save a man anyway He likes, and it will always be by Jesus, because Jesus is God. Simple. Soup cans...The Gospel...warm blankets...medical aids...mercy...love.... Just put it all together. Love, Joe SJW,

Please write, study, and pray your heart out. I highly encourage this in all of us. I’m simply just saying, let’s not put God’s perogatives, will, and power in a box.

God can save a man anyway He likes, and it will always be by Jesus, because Jesus is God. Simple.

Soup cans…The Gospel…warm blankets…medical aids…mercy…love….

Just put it all together.

Love,

Joe

]]> By: Chris L http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2007/12/02/the-church-in-the-community/comment-page-2/#comment-32410 Chris L Wed, 05 Dec 2007 02:31:58 +0000 http://christianresearchnetwork.info/2007/12/02/the-church-in-the-community/#comment-32410 SJ, Free will and predestination don't have to be an either/or proposition. Here's <a href="http://christianresearchnetwork.info/2007/08/03/of-blind-men-elephants-and-the-tyranny-of-the-or/" rel="nofollow">something</a> I recently wrote on the subject. Rick, I hear you, and while we might disagree on whether or not to work alongside unbelievers (I do see it as a witness opportunity to them, as well), I have no doubt that you care for those in need. Sometimes I wonder if we all don't approach these things too much with our heads more than our hearts when writing about them... As for what you believe might be a limited role on your part (I sometimes feel the same way, in terms of going vs. supporting), I have found some peace in realizing that perhaps it is better for me to be in the support role (holisitically in God's plan) than in an on-the-ground role. Someday, that may change, but I am trying to find contentment and use where I am... SJ,

Free will and predestination don’t have to be an either/or proposition. Here’s something I recently wrote on the subject.

Rick,

I hear you, and while we might disagree on whether or not to work alongside unbelievers (I do see it as a witness opportunity to them, as well), I have no doubt that you care for those in need. Sometimes I wonder if we all don’t approach these things too much with our heads more than our hearts when writing about them…

As for what you believe might be a limited role on your part (I sometimes feel the same way, in terms of going vs. supporting), I have found some peace in realizing that perhaps it is better for me to be in the support role (holisitically in God’s plan) than in an on-the-ground role. Someday, that may change, but I am trying to find contentment and use where I am…

]]> By: Rick Frueh http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2007/12/02/the-church-in-the-community/comment-page-2/#comment-32401 Rick Frueh Wed, 05 Dec 2007 01:50:19 +0000 http://christianresearchnetwork.info/2007/12/02/the-church-in-the-community/#comment-32401 Actually Chris, the larger problem is the church in America treats missions and helping the poor as a part of their church but certainly not eliciting much sacrifice and life changing participation. With that I wholeheartedly agree with you, but I could never join with other than Christians no matter what denomination they were. Even a liberal church but at least was Christian in name I would cooperate with, but not outside the faith. My health prevents me from going long term so in that I am a hypocrite, but ten years ago my partner and I started a missions organization to Africa and we have been privileged to support many missionaries there including sending some fresh from Bible school. And of course we send and pay for materials and goods but you have identified a sore spot for me because God has chosen to keep me as a facilitator and not allowed me top go and live there. It is one of the few things I cry over but I must bow to His will. Actually Chris, the larger problem is the church in America treats missions and helping the poor as a part of their church but certainly not eliciting much sacrifice and life changing participation. With that I wholeheartedly agree with you, but I could never join with other than Christians no matter what denomination they were. Even a liberal church but at least was Christian in name I would cooperate with, but not outside the faith.

My health prevents me from going long term so in that I am a hypocrite, but ten years ago my partner and I started a missions organization to Africa and we have been privileged to support many missionaries there including sending some fresh from Bible school. And of course we send and pay for materials and goods but you have identified a sore spot for me because God has chosen to keep me as a facilitator and not allowed me top go and live there.

It is one of the few things I cry over but I must bow to His will.

]]> By: S.J. Walker http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2007/12/02/the-church-in-the-community/comment-page-2/#comment-32400 S.J. Walker Wed, 05 Dec 2007 01:47:32 +0000 http://christianresearchnetwork.info/2007/12/02/the-church-in-the-community/#comment-32400 Joe, I will take that challenge. But, if you all here don't mind, I will take some more time to explain, as clearly as I am enabled, what Scripture says regarding this issue. I find that sometimes, that my passion is tempted to morph into blatant argumentative sin. This issue (Sovereignty) has been a much deliberated subject in my own mind. I will confess, I have wrestled with it much. For now, I would ask that you look <a href="http://amos3verse8.blogspot.com/2007/11/free-will-predestination-part-iv.html" rel="nofollow">here</a> for a precursory glance at where I stand. I will break from regular study at A Lion Has Roared! and will attempt to state my answer. This may take a few days as I am pressed for time right now. I cannot leave this alone, but I don't think I would do my convictions any justice to try to communicate them in a terse response in a comment page. Does this sound alright gentlemen? Just answer a quick yes or no. Joe,

I will take that challenge. But, if you all here don’t mind, I will take some more time to explain, as clearly as I am enabled, what Scripture says regarding this issue.

I find that sometimes, that my passion is tempted to morph into blatant argumentative sin.

This issue (Sovereignty) has been a much deliberated subject in my own mind. I will confess, I have wrestled with it much. For now, I would ask that you look here for a precursory glance at where I stand.

I will break from regular study at A Lion Has Roared! and will attempt to state my answer. This may take a few days as I am pressed for time right now.

I cannot leave this alone, but I don’t think I would do my convictions any justice to try to communicate them in a terse response in a comment page.

Does this sound alright gentlemen? Just answer a quick yes or no.

]]> By: Chris L http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2007/12/02/the-church-in-the-community/comment-page-2/#comment-32395 Chris L Wed, 05 Dec 2007 01:35:53 +0000 http://christianresearchnetwork.info/2007/12/02/the-church-in-the-community/#comment-32395 Actually, Rick, it it not a self-serving definition, but a real problem a number of churches in Africa face where Christians organizations won't give them the kind of help they need (typically material/medical/labor support) without spending significant time trying to add to what the church is already doing (and often doing well). In the US, the problem is just the same. I have worked with a church camp on an Indian Reservation in North Dakota, where the minister running the cam during the summer and youth groups during the rest of the year literally has his facilities falling apart around him because churches won't send workers who aren't there to teach Bible school or "witness to the natives". I remember how thankful they were toward a church in my area that went to their camp before it opened, build a building and did all sorts of maintenance that was needed for the summer - without taking days off to go into the villages of the Rez. SJW and Rick - I am not saying that nobody witnesses to the people being served to, but that not every server HAS TO BE somehow connected to sharing the gospel or else, somehow, Christ won't be served. <blockquote>If church XYZ is ministering to them (very nebulous) and they don’t need help with that then materials are fine.</blockquote> This is not a nebulous issue - unless you're willing to plop yourself down for 6-12 months (at a minimum) in these places (Africa, Eastern Europe, the Rez), your best and most effective service is often in non-speaking roles - leaving the speaking to those who ARE in these places for the long haul. I know this because I know many of these people and what their complaints about the American church are. We take such a short and faithless view of service that we are pitiful at being good stewards of the talents given to us... Actually, Rick, it it not a self-serving definition, but a real problem a number of churches in Africa face where Christians organizations won’t give them the kind of help they need (typically material/medical/labor support) without spending significant time trying to add to what the church is already doing (and often doing well).

In the US, the problem is just the same. I have worked with a church camp on an Indian Reservation in North Dakota, where the minister running the cam during the summer and youth groups during the rest of the year literally has his facilities falling apart around him because churches won’t send workers who aren’t there to teach Bible school or “witness to the natives”. I remember how thankful they were toward a church in my area that went to their camp before it opened, build a building and did all sorts of maintenance that was needed for the summer – without taking days off to go into the villages of the Rez.

SJW and Rick – I am not saying that nobody witnesses to the people being served to, but that not every server HAS TO BE somehow connected to sharing the gospel or else, somehow, Christ won’t be served.

If church XYZ is ministering to them (very nebulous) and they don’t need help with that then materials are fine.

This is not a nebulous issue – unless you’re willing to plop yourself down for 6-12 months (at a minimum) in these places (Africa, Eastern Europe, the Rez), your best and most effective service is often in non-speaking roles – leaving the speaking to those who ARE in these places for the long haul. I know this because I know many of these people and what their complaints about the American church are.

We take such a short and faithless view of service that we are pitiful at being good stewards of the talents given to us…

]]> By: Neil http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2007/12/02/the-church-in-the-community/comment-page-2/#comment-32394 Neil Wed, 05 Dec 2007 01:35:39 +0000 http://christianresearchnetwork.info/2007/12/02/the-church-in-the-community/#comment-32394 Rick, Depends - besides, I can't back into a position that annecdotally... but I'll give it a shot. If community I live in was to collect clothes to send to Haiti and they asked local churches to participate - I would... regardless of who else donates. If the LDS church was sponsoring the event, that would be a different matter... therein lies the problem of "What if..." - not enough details/too many variables. What I am trying to get my mind around is the specific fact of your first post - the fact that you say a Christian Pastor should not minister to his community, using a particular venue, if the community allows others to use that venue as well. Neil Rick,

Depends – besides, I can’t back into a position that annecdotally… but I’ll give it a shot.

If community I live in was to collect clothes to send to Haiti and they asked local churches to participate – I would… regardless of who else donates. If the LDS church was sponsoring the event, that would be a different matter… therein lies the problem of “What if…” – not enough details/too many variables.

What I am trying to get my mind around is the specific fact of your first post – the fact that you say a Christian Pastor should not minister to his community, using a particular venue, if the community allows others to use that venue as well.

Neil

]]> By: Rick Frueh http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2007/12/02/the-church-in-the-community/comment-page-2/#comment-32389 Rick Frueh Wed, 05 Dec 2007 01:28:26 +0000 http://christianresearchnetwork.info/2007/12/02/the-church-in-the-community/#comment-32389 Neil - Should the First Baptist Church publicly join hands with the LDS church down the street in sending clothes to Haiti? And would you mind if both churches were stamped on the boxes? Joe - The "C" things is in their blood, they can't help it! Neil – Should the First Baptist Church publicly join hands with the LDS church down the street in sending clothes to Haiti? And would you mind if both churches were stamped on the boxes?

Joe – The “C” things is in their blood, they can’t help it!

]]> By: Neil http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2007/12/02/the-church-in-the-community/comment-page-2/#comment-32387 Neil Wed, 05 Dec 2007 01:23:08 +0000 http://christianresearchnetwork.info/2007/12/02/the-church-in-the-community/#comment-32387 I'm trying to get my mind around Rick's first post - where he says "...unequal associations especially on a public scale obscures the message." So far my minds can't stretch that far - too many questions... too many questions... Neil I’m trying to get my mind around Rick’s first post – where he says “…unequal associations especially on a public scale obscures the message.”

So far my minds can’t stretch that far – too many questions… too many questions…

Neil

]]> By: Joe C http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2007/12/02/the-church-in-the-community/comment-page-2/#comment-32384 Joe C Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:47:32 +0000 http://christianresearchnetwork.info/2007/12/02/the-church-in-the-community/#comment-32384 Which is funny SJW, because I specifically asked you not to let the C thing get in <em>your</em> way of considering certain things outside your systematic theology. No one said any Scriptures lessens God's sovereignty. On the contray, I was saying your view of God makes Him less sovereign than He actually is. Chew on that and tell me what you think. No one will be saved except through Jesus. A given. But that's like saying no one is created or exists except by God's power. If anyone's saved, it's by Jesus. Leave it up to God. Joe Which is funny SJW, because I specifically asked you not to let the C thing get in your way of considering certain things outside your systematic theology.

No one said any Scriptures lessens God’s sovereignty. On the contray, I was saying your view of God makes Him less sovereign than He actually is. Chew on that and tell me what you think.

No one will be saved except through Jesus. A given. But that’s like saying no one is created or exists except by God’s power. If anyone’s saved, it’s by Jesus. Leave it up to God.

Joe

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