the gods are angry?
In Ken’s latest hit piece against Rob Bell, he writes this
According to his myth The gods Aren’t Angry, Rob Bell would have us believe God says, “I will be calm and will no more be angry.â€
But here is what the LORD God Almighty actually says: “I AM a righteous Judge, a God Who expresses My wrath every day.†(see—Psalm 7:11)
I am wondering if Ken missed these verses in his morning conversations with the Divine
Psa 36:5 (NIV) Your love, O LORD, reaches to the heavens, your faithfulness to the skies.
Jer 31:3 (NIV) The LORD appeared to us in the past, saying: “I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with loving-kindness.
Lam 3:22 (NIV) Because of the Lord’s great love we are not consumed, for his compassions never fail.
Zep 3:17 (NIV) The LORD your God is with you, he is mighty to save. He will take great delight in you, he will quiet you with his love, he will rejoice over you with singing.”
1 John 4:16 (NIV) And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.
John 3:16 (NIV) “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
1 John 3:1 (NIV) How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him.
I wonder if the ODMs just skip over verses like these. They certainly don’t jive with their theology.
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
22 Comments(+Add)
Nathan, I AM SO THANKFUL for God’s love for the world. However, I cannot ignore the fact that the Bible preaches and teaches about God’s anger.
How do you explain the text in 2 Thessalonians where God will “in flaming fire take vengeance on them that know not God and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Please, explain that verse to me in light of what you have written.
And there we have the rub.
ODM’s see God as full of wrath and people as “Sinners in the hands of an Angry God.”
As for me and my house we’ll live by 1 John 4:9-11
-
Just do a waord search for “wrath” in the New Testament and you will find plenty of passages about God’s wrath. There is a balance, but God’s anger is real.
Clearly,
Please explain 1 John 4:9-11 (see above).
And so is His Love Rick.
I agree that there is a balance. I also believe that both (Love and Wrath) draw people to Christ.
But I would never deride anyone who preaches the truth in love. The problem is that Ken doesn’t.
I really don’t think watchdoggies understand God in the least. Over at churchvoices Ken took umbrage over my assertion that understanding God through taking on the role of father was impossible. Which is a bit odd since God seems to think it was worthwhile enough to put all through scripture. Apparently the book of Hosea tells us nothing about God, but a single verse from Thesselonians illuminates Him entirely.
I think if I were God, I’d have one of the gifts of the Spirit be “balance”. It seems lacking in so many areas among those that call themselves the Church. Clearly there is both a wrath and love element to God. I don’t see these as exclusive. But many err by focussing on one or the other of these.
There is one door and that is Jesus Christ… if one chooses not to enter in the Kingdom by Him, all that waits is the wrath they choose over Jesus.
But, I do not preach wrath at the expense of grace… for it is the kindness of God that leads us to repentance… not His wrath.
Someone (not here) stated that salvation was all about being saved from God’s wrath and we are… but that is one verse and Paul states it in a way that since since in now taken away, how much more since all men are justified (all has been set to right at the Cross) then how much more will we be saved from His wrath… and if saved from His wrath we are now reconciled how much more are we saved by His Life.
If someone does not not accept that the wrath of God was poured out on Jesus at the Cross, then they will experience the Second Death and will be judged by their words against Jesus’ words.
iggy
Let me say, I am not trying to disprove God’s wrath. I am simply saying that there is another side of YHWH that the ODMs rarley show. Yes, he is extremely and justifiably wrathful. However, the scriptures tell us that it is His kindness that leads us to repentance. Why do we never see a God of mercy and love from the ODM. He is always pissed off at someone.
Do any of us fully understand God in the least? I don’t think it’s possible.
But I agree there needs to be a balance. There are many different sides to God, just like it is with people. If I focused on my parents’ anger and ignored their love I woudn’t have a good relationship with them at all.
The confusing thing about God is that there are three different forms of Him: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So far the articles written about God’s anger seems to be focusing on God the Father or just God in general. Jesus got angry, too. I’m thinking of in the temple when he overturned the merchants’ tables. Yet he still died for those he was angry with; he died for everyone.
And sometimes when I’m sinning or doing something not honoring to God the Holy Spirit makes me feel so bad, I stop and ask for forgiveness on the spot. I’m not sure if that’s anger, but if God is angry with me, I feel it’s because He loves me and wants my love, not because God is Angry All The Time . . . lol. If I’m not making sense, sorry.
Nathan,
In Calvinism God only really, really, really love the elect. Some Calvinists (and certainly not all) would explain away the verses by saying they referred to the elect.
In my Calvinistic days I remember a discussion over the Rich Younger ruler….Jesus “loved” him. Simple Explanation from a well known Calvinist. Well, the rich young ruler was Paul and that is why Jesus could say He loved him.
I in no way desire a debate over Calvinism but I do think that is what drives some of the stuff at Christian Research Network. Those who drink heavily at the Puritan fountain tend to sound like Edwards and Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.
I am too old to continue trying to figure out who God loves and who he doesn’t.
This in no way negates God’s wrath. It is also taught in Scripture. Rejection of Christ has a consequence.
Wow, Bruce, a recovering Calvinist. A rare bird indeed. Usually they are like a Biker Club, once you’re in they won’t let you out!
I agree with what you said, very balanced.
The ODM’s seem to miss the purpose of His wrath was to show God’s mercy and long-suffering… which is His Kindness…
One cannot have mercy or grace without wrath, but they flip it on its head and present a God of Wrath that if appeased, will show kindness and that is pure paganism.
It is the type of God that Job’s friends believed in and told Job he must of angered God in some way… then Elihu that all men are wicked and that all men should be judged accordingly… but God gives hardship so that man will turn to Him and cry out… but men will mostly turn to more wickedness instead.
It is in this that God loved and sent His Son. It is in this that God now holds back His wrath so that man can be wooed to Him by the Holy Spirit as Elihu states:
God wrath is only to show His kindness so that man will come to His kindness in repentance.
To state “God is angry” I will quote Elihu who rebuke the Job for such accusation.
Ken and company fail to see that they are like Job’s friends… and finally Job who claimed that God will justify them for not doing evil… but failed to see that God should punish them all for their own evil. In fact the ODM’s make God out to be unjust and unkind by pushing wrath on those they deem worthy of it.
All men have fallen, and all men need salvation. We are saved by grace through faith so NONE SHOULD BOAST of their own righteousness… and Ken seems to be on a roll in doing just that!
iggy
Not only this, but in criticizing “the gods aren’t angry”, it is quite apparent that most of those laying out the criticism haven’t gone beyond the title.
Dave – is there anything that we can do to appease the anger of God so that He will love us? What work can we perform that will make him bless our lives? What work can we perform that will make Him end difficult times we are in?
Bell’s entire presentation is basically a narrative defense of how we are saved by faith in what God has done and not by works that we have to do. It is about God being at peace with us because of HE sacrificed, and not an angry god that leaves us in limbo as to whether he loves us or not – requiring more and more sacrifices (works) to appease His anger.
All of the critics are hung up on a title that doesn’t mean what they’ve built it to mean as their straw man.
I’m still working through a potential article on Bell’s speech last week, and what amazes me most is how stupid and ignorant the comments are that come from people who weren’t there (like Ken and several commenters here), and who have gone ahead and made an effigy and burnt it.
Add another ignored verse:
Rick, I’ll ditto agreement with your statement that there is certainly a wrathful side to God’s nature (after all, I’m one of those nasty Calvinists, so I have to attest to that).
I’ll also ditto the lack of “truth IN LOVE” at AM [sic], but add another thing. If I may paraphrase the verse above, God is saying that He will show grace and compassion to whomever He darn well pleases, and He’s not going to consult the ODMs first.
The big difference is most people don’t question the salvation of people who focus on wrath…just the fact they focus on wrath so much…
The people who focus on wrath eventually (if not out of the gate) disfellowship those who focus on love. It’s just the truth. It happens a lot.
I just can’t see God damning us to hell if we happened to overestimate his love.
The point isn’t “balance” or “the whole counsel of God”, etc. etc.
The point is: Why, oh why, oh why do people seem to revel in the idea of God being angry?
Regardless of God’s anger toward sin…I think it says a lot about you if you only hold up God’s anger or make it the central definitive reality of the gospel.
Mercy triumphs over judgement…
God so loved “the world”…all that badness…
While we were yet sinners…
The one who knew no sin BECAME SIN…
hmmmmmm
nc,
My issue is how those who focus on wrath seem to attack the Love of God as not being truth…
They take the love of God as something to hold contempt at… as if some inner self loathing has attached itself to them and in that moment of realization, hate themselves for what they are… but have not truly repented…
It is like someone who goes through the stages of death.
1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance
Now, they seem stuck in the Anger/Bargaining stages…
Anger at their own inabilities and bargaining as they hope that what they do gets God’s attention and that they find His acceptance.
They cannot move on to depression and acceptance as they have yet to realize that they must die to themselves and come to Life in Him.
In that I find great joy in the Kindness of God that I was forgiven… and that I now know I am undeserving, but more that His Love and acceptance is greater than my sin! I walk in the forgiveness and trust that I am accepted by God in Christ… for God accepted Jesus and now, by His eternal plan, I am accepted in Christ also.
Blessings,
iggy
Ok, so, are those of you who are critical of the ODMs for what you say is their focus more on wrath then love, also going to be as critical of Bell for making the opposite mistake, in focusing on God’s love and saying He has no wrath?
Yes, I am.
I believe we are in more grave error to state “God hates” people than to preach Grace to them…
God is Love, and by default someone without Jesus get wrath, so it is not just “balance” rather it is the understanding how we over come sin… “by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony”… I think that when one teaches this error, it misrepresents God as not having compassion. God first states He is compassionate.
Note He has “anger” but is slow to anger… notice also that there is a lot more here on his loving side.
Love side:
1. Compassionate
2. Gracious
3. Slow to anger
4. Abounding in love
5. Abounding in faithfulness
6. Maintaining love to thousands
7. Forgiving
Wrath side:
1. Does not leave the guilty unpunished
So to say God describes Himself as “angry” or that He “hates men” misrepresents who He is.
I think to error on the side of Grace and Mercy and Love is not as egregious as to error on “the angry God side.â€
iggy
Jazz,
I won’t, because that was not the point of Bell’s talk, and in the context of Bell’s presentation and the ‘anger’ he was centering on, God is not angry.
Perhaps a better title would have been ‘the gods don’t need to be appeased’, since it appears that some people cannot see the difference between anger (an emotional condition) and wrath (an action taken).
One large problem Jazz; Bell didn’t say that. Remember Jesus loves you if you’re elect.