Comments on: Grace isn’t understood by the graceless

By: Chris L

Chris L — Sat, 08 Dec 2007 13:47:56 +0000

Chris, good articleâ€¦.but since most anything can be a stumbling block to someone , somewhere. what do we do? Do absolutes in moderation, convicitions in moderationâ€¦or clamp down and donâ€™t do anything at all?

TJ,

I would say that, out of love for brothers, we ought to be accommodating with our freedom, realizing that there are some who will try to use this (per Joe’s comment) in a controlling fashion (and this is what we should avoid).

For example, I know a woman at a church I used to attend who would use every “offense” as a way to control her personal preferences – complaining to the minister every time that someone wore jeans on stage; every time that someone placed something on top (or sat on the edge of) the organ; etc.

My advice would be 1) don’t go out of your way to offend a brother’s conscience, realizing that this can be accidental; 2) realize that you can be part of the problem if you try to codify preferences/convictions as if they were absolutes; 3) utilize the pastor(s) and/or elders of the church to directly address the petty issues (particularly dealing with style); 4) when you find yourself being ‘offended’ at something, do a gut check of the A/C/P classification before you open your mouth (often the hardest for me);

With the internet, though, we would always have to go to the lowest common denominator in discussion if we are not careful, and we also need to realize that TALKING about drinking/style/etc. is not the same as DOING the drinking/style/etc. With that in mind, we need to be able to discuss these things without fear of offense.

By: Rick Frueh

Rick Frueh — Sat, 08 Dec 2007 00:53:49 +0000

I believe the phrase is “offend their weak consciences”. It isn’t causing them to sin, it would be your sin. And I agree there are things that cannot be avoided.

By: Reverend Joe Martino

Reverend Joe Martino — Sat, 08 Dec 2007 00:45:28 +0000

Rick,
If they just felt it was sin, then I’m not causing them to stumble by drinking. Otherwise, my wife couldn’t wear pants because I know believers who believe that is wrong. Causing someone to stumble in Romans 14 is causing them to sin. How am I causing them to sin by drinking a beer?

By: Rick Frueh

Rick Frueh — Sat, 08 Dec 2007 00:33:56 +0000

Joe – Romans chapter 14 does encourage us to be aware of others and their consciences when we can. If you went out with a couple of believers and you knew they were not drinkers and you did not know their view on it, it would be inappropriate to order drinks without knowing. Right?

By: Reverend Joe Martino

Reverend Joe Martino — Fri, 07 Dec 2007 23:15:24 +0000

It would be helpful I think to define what “stumbling block” means. What the original writers and readers would have understood it to mean. Too often I hear people say, “Well, I think drinking is a sin, so your drinking is a stumbling block to me.” That’s such a perversion of the text it almost makes me stumble b/c I want to beat the person.

By: T.J.

T.J. — Fri, 07 Dec 2007 22:05:18 +0000

Chris, good article….but since most anything can be a stumbling block to someone , somewhere. what do we do? Do absolutes in moderation, convicitions in moderation…or clamp down and don’t do anything at all? Having been a social drinker in my past I know the reason I drank was peer pressure and socially propping up my insecurities. Or just being depressed about my sad miserable life. When I had a winer cooler I never once thought of any health benefits or how a glass of red wine before bed was good for my arteries. After coming to Christ and growing in Him it was easy to put the booze down. My identity was in HIM, as was my security. So I had courage to be in groups of people drinking and not drink and answer questions WHY I was not drinking. We’re trying to raise our kids that way. Strong in their convictions. Not from a LEGALIST point of view but from the point of view that it can bog you down in your walk with the Lord. Walking free of vices is a very good thing. As for people in Europe drinking is no big deal because they are
for the most part, secular. Here in America the cultural battle wages as to whether we will be secular or a people of faith in the Lord Jesus. And that is why we struggle with it….flesh and spirit are battling…over in the UK the flesh has won out.

By: Phil Miller

Phil Miller — Fri, 07 Dec 2007 16:05:32 +0000

There in lies the crux of the issue.Â Â

Chris,
Yes that is it.

By the way, I should add that making hard and fast rule for everyone prohibiting alcohol is probably the worst thing a Christian can do. I think the reason I was never tempted to rebel against my parents in this issue growing up is because they led by example more than anything. I don’t even know if I can remember them specifically ever telling me not to drink.

Also, I think that Christians moralizing on this issue is why it is treated differently here than other countries. We make it a “forbidden fruit” of sorts and so when people are in an environment where it’s available to them, they just go crazy. I’ve talked to some of my friends from Europe, and they can’t believe that it’s such a big issue over here.

By: chris

chris — Fri, 07 Dec 2007 15:55:47 +0000

I guess itâ€™s just my environment, but I see so much of the destructive side of alcohol that it would be really hard for me to even drink at all where I am now.

There in lies the crux of the issue.

By: Chris L

Chris L — Fri, 07 Dec 2007 15:12:34 +0000

TJ,

Did you read the article and answer the question?

I agree with Phil on the wisdom of abstinence, particularly in the sight of those who might stumble, but I read agreement between Phil’s statement and mine – it is a culturally contextual choice that is often wise to make in favor of abstention.

This is completely different that a faux-biblical prohibition on alcohol.

By: T.J.

T.J. — Fri, 07 Dec 2007 15:02:37 +0000

sad…I agree Phil..thoughtful post…..America is drowning in alcohol and the results (that still play out in my marriage from a man who never drinks but bears the emotional scars of a father who was a gambling, raging alcoholic) are SAD.