Does Ken kind of endorse woman preachers?
From what I can see so far concerning this “Passion for Christ Movement,†though not necessarily an endorsement on my part, I am pleased to tell you that it does actually appear P4CM may indeed be a legit Christian outreach geared most specifically to the black and urban community.
If you watch the videos, it appears that the leader of the Passion for Christ Movement is in fact, a woman, Blair Wingo.
I’m not making an issue of whether women should be pastors, however, Ken (or the mysterious editor) has slammed any church that has a woman pastor/teacher/leader. What’s going on here? Is it because she takes a shot at Purpose Driven?
*Update
Ken edited the article since I wrote this post. I suppose the question now is, is it ok for a woman to preach?
The other question: Is Ken endorsing Christian Rap? Here are some youtube videos of a Christian rap musician that performed at P4CM:
Update 2:
Lecrae, a Christian rapper and his performance at P4CM. The video is mostly of testimonies of kids who went to the show, interspersed with clips of Lacrae:
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Matt B, perhaps in your rush to try and slam Ken you didn’t actually read his article, because it clearly shows Blair Wingo is not the “pastor” of this group:
Pastor Justin Cox, 30, of Los Angeles’ Passion for Christ Movement, said GodTube has helped his congregation reach an audience well beyond the 60 people who regularly come to his services, where he preaches against what he sees as harmful images of blacks portrayed in hip-hop music. “I have to address Tupac before I can even get in there and address Jesus Christ,†he said. Cox’s group scored a hit with a video of a slam poetry sermon given by actress and model Blair Wingo. With nearly 30,000 views, Wingo’s lyrical performance is now one of GodTube’s most-viewed clips and has elicited fan mail from China, Australia and Europe. (Online source)
So are you fine researchers now going to print a full retraction? This whole post is null and void because Wingo’s pastor is a man named Justin Cox, and right in line with the Bible it is the man Cox who heads up Passion for Christ Movement.
Jim,
If it looks like a pastor, acts like a pastor, and preaches like a pastor, she’s probably a pastor.
Jim:
Ken edited his article as soon as I wrote the post here. The part that you quote wasn’t in the original article.
She did preach a sermon. Are women permitted to preach sermons at Ken’s church?
Tim Reed is arguing from silence. No where does the article specifically say she is a pastor. It is a secular author would uses the term “sermon.” Even so, sermons are not exclusive to pastors.
So then, using the exact same line of reasoning ODMs are now correct when we say: If Rob Bell looks like an Emergent, acts like an Emergent, and preaches like an Emergent, he’s probably an Emergent.
And in regard to Matt B: “Ken edited his article as soon as I wrote the post here.” I discussed this with Ken and he told me that he edited nothing. So Matt’s statement is not true.
“So Matt’s statement is not true.
Yeah, cuz ken doesn’t have a history of truth distortion.
No, he did edit the article. That part wasn’t in there.
While we are at it, P4CM had a rap concert at their church. Is Ken endorsing Christian rap music as well?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U00AwIHcTOw
So let me get this straight, a woman can preach, teach, reprove, rebuke, stand behind a pulpit and deliver a sermon, and all the other things that usually are meant for pastors and elders, but if she is not an official pastor or elder it’s all right?
Oh yea, Ingrid, I forgot.
Except you’ve got no idea what an emergent is other than something that you don’t like.
Alright Jim here’s your big chance to take a stand. Is preaching something women can do in a church as long as they’re not THE pastor?
I think the better issue for you guys to deal with is whether or not what she is saying is the truth.
Now who’s compromising for the sake of practicality?
Hmmm…addressing Tupac before he addresses Jesus sounds very…purpose driven, man loving, emergent, etc.
Really?
Then someone changed the article between the first time I clicked on it (right after Matt published it) and when I clicked on it after your comment.
I trust Ken about as much as I trust Bill Clinton… it all depends on the definition of what “edited” is…
Tim,
I’m not. I don’t know the context of this video. Was it a church service? Was it Sunday School Class? Was it a gathering of concerned people who wanted to take their community back from a bunch of lawless thugs?
What I do know is that she was reciting a poem that she wrote. It looks like it was delivered in church.
If she’s a pastor in that church that is clearly contrary to scripture.
Clearly there are two levels that you could discuss her poem.
1. What is the role of women in the church and is this a violation of Biblical norms?
A. If this is a violation then I think the more interesting followup question would be where are the men in this community and why aren’t they saying what this woman is saying with the same passion? There are a couple of examples in the Bible of God using women to shame the men into doing their duty. Is this an example of that?
2. Is this woman right? Has the church sold out to the ‘Come as you are STAY as you are Jesus?” Where have holiness and repentance gone?
This video is an enigma. It opens up all kinds of thorny and messy issues that need to be sorted out. Are you guys brave enough to face these deep issues and actually debate and discuss them or are you going to stay in the shallow end of the pool with your rubber duckies and arm floaties?
Name the issues, Chris R.
Chris R-
While your at it, could you address the use of rap music by P4CM? How come if Rob Bell had this rap musician play at Mars Hill, Ken would be all over it, yet a church he kind of endorses has the same rap musician, it’s ok?
“I have to address Tupac before I can even get in there and address Jesus Christ.”
Chris R – also address this statement by the pastor of P4CM.
There were no takers for my questions. Interesting….
You boyz can do better than that. I seriously would like to know if any of you boyz think that what Blair said was wrong or if you thought she was right. Was she on the money or is she nothing more than the Urban Ingrid?
Tim Reed I am VERY interested in knowing what you thought of the content of Blair’s poem. Did this woman speak the truth or was it something else?
Hey Chris – “Urban Ingrid”. I am convelescing at home and that made me laugh. Thanks. I did not watch the video but is the poem too long to post it so we can read it?
I watched both vids posted on AM.
I found what she was saying to be good.
So there you go Chris, one person answered.
You should answer all the questions directed at you though.
Joe
Rick,
The poem is a bit long. Sorry.
Joe C,
Answers to questions fired at me.
1. Regarding Rap Music, this church’s use of it and and Ken Silva. I am not Ken Silva nor do I play him on T.V. I seen his very valid critiques of the rap culture and their exploitation of women, glorification of gang violence etc. I’ve Also, I’ve seen this P4CM group go after the whole rap culture too. So, You’d have to ask them about their use of rap when it appears that they are condemning it. As for my opinion on it, I don’t really have one. I consider it to be adiaphora.
Thanks Chris. I don’t have an opinion on Rap Music either. If it’s used for God, it’s used for God. Good stuff then. If it glorifies sex drugs etc etc, then it’s no good. But all types of music and TV do that.
Nearly anyting can be used to bring glory and honor to God. David dancing half naked was God honoring, afterall.
Joe
Joe C,
Ahhh there is one thing I noticed after tracking down the links to the rap videos. They are NOT videos created by P4CM. Matt B just grabbed them off of YouTube and put them next to Blair’s video and said this rapper performed at a P4CM event.
That my friends is what we call a Red Herring. It has nothing to do with the price of smoked cheese in Wisconsin.
Ken hasn’t officially endorsed P4CM and Ken is definitely not in any leadership position at P4CM. Calling Ken a Hypocrite regarding the use of rap by P4CM is quite a stretch and too ridiculous to even really comment on.
Ummm,
I am not sure this is about “women pastors” but I do see the hip-hip-hipocrysy that on one hand the ODM’s state that the “gospel is not cultural” and then Ken states…
So the black urban community can have a “legit” Christian outreach geared to them… but “emergents” are all wrong when they want to be relevant to their own communities?
Now, that is a bit of brain teaser in how one can justify one and call out apostasy at another… LOL!
iggy
Chris R,
I feel the same way when I read most of Ken’s articles… oh what is your opinion of the one where Ken mocked me for calling for a day of fasting and prayer to bless him?
http://christianresearchnetwork.com/?p=2905
I just wonder in how you can justify his mocking over someone sincerely praying for him?
iggy
BTW i am over it… i was never under it… just thought Ken to be a bit strange that he would mock someone for praying for him… and I was blessed greatly that day also! = )
I watched the first video (couldn’t make it through the second) but she was good and forceful. I do not think that young girl was stepping in the role of pastor, I think she was tesifying.
It was urban but it certainly gave a strong word. Let’s pray many will come to Christ, the urban community needs it too.
Yeah Iggy, that is very odd. “Brain teaser”, ha ha ha.
I agree man, I mean how can they say being ‘relevant’ (ie, gearing towards a certain culture or community) is wrong, if they’ll selectively approve of the same things in varying ministries?
Weird.
Iggy and Joe,
Apostasy does not have to do with the cultural context that message is being preached. It has to do with the content and fidelity of the message.
Some cultural instruments are not appropriate for church because they carry with them a cultural context that is incompatible with the gospel. I’ll give you an outrageous example so that you see what I am talking about. For example, Pole Dancing although it may ‘reach’ the strip club culture could never be appropriate in church because of its unbreakable connection with sexually sinful behavior.
Those who argue against Hip Hop, Rock and Rap in church do so because they believe that they are not “neutral” forms of music. They carry sinful and rebellious cultural overtones that are not appropriate in God’s church. For these people it is NOT just a musical form, there is a clear message attached to the musical form and that message wars against the message of God and his holiness.
So going back to my first point. Apostasia (the greek word for rebellion) is all about rebelling against God’s Word and sound doctrine. Many times, (not always) churches that adopt musical styles that were forged in cultural rebellion also rebel against sound doctrine. These churches aren’t just changing the music style of worship they are also changing the message itself. They oftentimes, take the focus of their messages off of Christ and make man and solving his pesky life problems the focus of the message.
So, true apostasy always is first and foremost about rebelling against sound doctrine and the gospel. Musical forms used in worship can be one of the ways to spot problems, but that is not necessarily the case. When in doubt look at the lyrics.
Chris R.
I think you missed the point… I know of nothing like a strippers pole in any emerging church… and do not see how candles or couches would be as sinful as a strippers pole.
Also, apostasy as defined by the early church had to do with purposely stating that something other than Jesus and the gospel proclaimed by Him and the apostles is not enough to save us.
Also you did not answer the questions…
iggy
= )
Chris.
What if a Rap artist, say he’s Christian, had very very godly lyrics? Is the Rap still evil?
You can’t draw lines really, except when it’s obviously not for Christ. If it’s Christian, and has a sound Christian message, I can’t see it as evil just because of the style, and I doubt God does.
If you think all Rap is evil because of the style and the cultural baggage with it, then I think that’s only your opinion. You could say the same about ANY style of music. Even a hymn.
I think content is everything.
PS, I REALY dislike Rap music. Just don’t like how it sounds.
Love, Joe
Iggy,
Regarding your question I cannot and will not speak for Ken. I am not his proxy. I seriously do not understand why you guys keep asking me these types of questions. I think you guys are haunted by the ghost of Ken
Regarding candles and Emergent worship, I wasn’t actually addressing that subject. But, since you brought it up. The question I would want to ascertain from any ’style’ of church is what is the center and substance of that worship service? I am a Lutheran we utilize incense, candles, wooden pews and an organ in our worship. But knowing that doesn’t tell you squat about our worship except that Lutherans like dimly lite smelly services with old hymns and uncomfortable seats. All of these artifacts don’t tell you anything about the heart of our worship service because Roman Catholics utilize many of the same artifacts and our worship is VERY different.
Okay so you use couches, and candles. That doesn’t tell me anything except your very informal with an eye towards old ritual and symbols. I want to more deeper and more important things about your church.
How does your worship begin?
What are the lyrics to the songs that you sing?
Who preaches/teaches and what do they preach/teach?
What role if any does God’s word play in your service?
What is the purpose of your service in the first place?
Why should anyone come to it?
Does the architecture play any role in the service? If so what?
How often do you have communion and why?
How are sins dealt with in the service? Is the sinner pointed to Christ or is the sinner left to solve their own problems?
Joe C,
Is rap still evil if the artist is a Christian and the lyrics are Christian?
That is going to depend on who you ask. 1 Corinthians 8 is going to lay down our limits here. Take a moment and read it.
So, for some Rap music will always be the music of rebellion and their consciences will never be able to see it as anything other than that. Others see all music as neutral and only the lyrics can decide whether or not the song is “Christian”.
Whose right? The Biblical answer according to 1 Cor 8 is that both are right. The important thing for us to remember is not to practice our Christian Liberty in such a way that it snares the consciences of our brothers and sisters.
Verse 9 of 1 Cor 8 holds the key.
9 But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.
One of the reasons it is wise to choose neutral music forms in worship is so that the greatest number of brothers and sisters can participate without it being a stumbling block to their conscience.
Music can do a lot of heavy lifting in worship but it can also be a impediment. Keep in mind that worship is NOT a performance, it is not entertainment, it serves a completely different purpose.
Chris,
You make an awesome point with 1 Cor 8. And I know this chapter. I really love it.
But you ask who is right, and I would say, the weaker is not, as their stumbling comes from a lack of knowledge, faith, and understanding of Freedom in Christ. They are not sinning, but I don’t think they’re in the better position according to this chapter and others. As the brothers who do not stumble over ‘food sacrificed to idols’ or whatever else that is a matter of conscience, it’s our job not to wave our freedom in someone’s face, as to make them stumble. I’d much rather never listen to music again in front of a brother that found all music offensive and hurtful to him, than to continually make him stumble in a life of sin. (Hyperbole)
You said:
But you must define neutral by an objective standard, preferably Scripture, but we cannot do that. “Neutral music” is a totally subjective ‘genre’. What I consider neutral, an old lady might not. And what you consider neutral, is obviously completely different from what this musician (me) thinks is neutral (I think all music is essentially neutral).
So even this is debatable. Which is why it makes no sense to make a big deal over it.
To some, Rap music always carries the connotation of ‘evil’. To some, guitars do. To some, an organ sounds like the instrument of doom and gloom. So what?
“Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment.” John 7:24
That whole section of Scripture is GREAT, I recommend re reading it, since you asked me to re read 1 Cor 8. =)
Love,
Joe
Chris R,
We ask you questions about Ken because he doesn’t engage in a meaningful way (sometimes you barely do too) and it seems that if you are concerned for “the right” then you would be at least a little disturbed by his tactics. The END doesn’t justify the means. By the standards of the community we see you identifying with it’s incumbent on you to delineate between Ken and you, ESPECIALLY when he crosses the line without confusing the issue by pointing the finger at people here.
As far as worship goes…I think that if some of you and your friends actually engaged–not books from a select few–but to the broad diverse world of so-called emerging churches…you would see an equally broad and diverse, but thoughtful and theologically reflective, approaches to worship practices.
I wish you would see though that it’s not throwing your friends under the bus to be mature enough to publicly own that informality with couches is NOT inherently irreverent…it could be…but I’ve seen just as many people slam their rears into wood pews thoughtlessly and robotically…
I think your questions about worship are great and are far more prevalent in their being considered in these churches you and friends feel a need to critique.
Mega-churches that appeal to a upper middle class corporate culture…now those are different ball of wax when it comes to worship…but then again for all the tantrum attention some of your friends give them they really only represent about 6 percent of the north american church experience. They’re flukes. They get attention, but they aren’t really indicative the state of religion in the country.
anyway…It’s nice to see a discussion here that’s a bit toned down with you Chris R…really.
Actually Chris R… None of what you stated pertains to me… so you made a lot of assumptions about me that had nothing to do with me…
We have tables and chairs and no couches.
Yet, you consistently skip over answering direct questions as to your connection with Ken and how he does stuff… in fact you seem to consistently turn a blind eye to his sin and thus condone it.
So do not think I or anyone should take you seriously as you condone the sin of one and attack the superficiality of practices that have no eternal consequences of another. You discredit yourself and disqualify yourself by condoning Ken’s continuing sin which seems to worsen every day…
So is it wrong as Ken asserts to be culturally aware and use culture around you to promote the Gospel… why is it “legit” if one is “urban” and “black” and not if one is emerging?
There is no consistency of thought and this is the type of hypocrisy that runs at the core of CRN.
Now before you say, “guilt by association” then repent for all the times that this also has been committed against people like me who “associate” with emerging/emergent and are condemned and assaulted with lies and slander. No one I know of has ever lied about Ken or you, yet your association with being a writer with CRN makes you directly condoning slander and lies. If you cannot see the difference then I pray for you.
In fact as you distance yourself from Ken here as you just did you discredit him, yourself and CRN more.
I see that you have not right to tell me or anyone that we do not stand against sin, (since you do not even know me) yet allow it in your own association.
I know of no one in emerging or emergent that openly condones sin as you are here with your own words.
iggy
NC,
It is not the size of the church that matters. My critique isn’t against BIG churches but the growing number of churches of all sizes that have bought into the seeker-sensitive and purpose-driven approach to doing church. Those approaches are not a fluke. They are implemented in hundreds of thousands of churches across the globe.
Regarding Ken. I am not Ken. I do not speak for Ken. I am not Ingrid, Phil or Jim either. Ken has an email address if you want to take your issues up with him then drop him a line. Furthermore, I don’t share your conclusions about Ken.
Iggy,
It is so difficult to have any kind of a coherent discussion with you guys because all of you seem completely obsessed with Ken. It is like all of you have shell shock. Furthermore, so many of the responses I see on this site are very superficial. What exactly does this site stand for? I feel like I am watching a Ken Silva group therapy session. But the really bizarre thing is that the contributors on this site use the exact same tactics they accuse Ken of using. So how on earth are any of these complaints about Ken supposed to have any credibility?
Chris R:
I updated the post. I think you missed one of the videos I pointed out. It shows clips of a rap concert performed by Lecrae. It was produced by P4CM.
All things are lawful but not all things are expedient. I think rap music, if it is clear and not beat overbalanced, can be used as an evangelistic toll. I personally do not see it as a part of a worship service.
Hi Rick-
I agree in part. But I also don’t completely understand or appreciate rap. There are probably cases where it can be used in worship. How do you define worship or a worship service?
Matt B,
Thanks for fixing your Red Herring.
This doesn’t change the fact that I don’t speak for Ken Silva, nor does it change what I’ve already said about Rap and its use in the Church.
My personal belief (even though I don’t like rap) is that its use will fall under the category of Christian Liberty. Even though its use is not automatically sinful it could be sinful if its use causes problems with the consciences of other brothers and sisters who cannot disassociate the musical form with rebellion and sexploitation.
I am personally not scandalized by the Lecrae video. I would remind you that the video was shot after a Lecrae Concert. Lecrae wasn’t leading worship in the church service. This was a performance, a concert, and an outreach event this wasn’t church.
I think this would have crossed the line had this been done in a church service. Why? Because church isn’t a performance. Church serves a different purpose and it includes young and old and because of that many of the older folks in church may be scandalized by this type of music. It would become an impediment to their worship. When we worship together in community that means being considerate also to the older saints among us as well as our weaker brothers and sisters in Christ.
Chris made a good point. Rap is too generationally narrow to allow all ages to worship. Most of it is also too overbearing in the beat and usually no melody or harmony, it’s actually a poem put to a beat. It is more performance than congregational worship.
But if any man seem contentious, we have no such custom neither the churches of God.
Rick,
I would also add that rap is to racially narrow for use in the church. I am a firm believer in diversity within the church. I think it is a crime that the we don’t see ethnic diversity within the church. I have my white suburban church, others have their African American church, and still others have their cowboy church etc.
I think this a problem rather than a strength. I think this ‘cultural’ silo mentality fractures and divides us in ways that are unhealthy and dangerous. Different ethnic groups and sub-cultures need to worship together as the Body of Christ rather than sub-groups that are divided by race, personal tastes and passing cultural fads.
Chris R-
I might be splitting hairs but one of the first things one of the guys says was “they had everybody in the church…”, referring to the concert that happened at church.
So, the concert took place in a church. Although, it’s the ODMs that believe that the church is a building…
I agree that rap is an issue of Christian liberty.
I have no idea how you would do this. Does everyone have to sing hymns written by crusty dead white Europeans? I’d rather that each culture worship in the way that uses the music they understand.
I love the hymns by the way. I’d prefer to do them much more then these newish worship songs. But that’s a matter of personal preference.
Chris R,
It is not an obsession with Ken it is trying to get through to the leadership of CRN who seems to not want to have a discussion but put people down and attack them on the none essentials of salvation.
Is Ken the leader and head of CRN? Then we are calling him into accountability for his words and actions… unlike those who also write under him… like you who seem to not care what he states or how he states it or who he hurts… you all just give the unaccountable answer of “i am not accountable for Ken”… but if you are part of a church and the head pastor is in sin, and you are under him… then you are accountable for not doing anything to stop him…
This is the standard placed on me as being part of emerging… and btw, unlike you I have told others in emerging things I do not appreciate when I think they do things not scriptural and not appropriate such as for example when Tony used an inappropriate word or when I told the person who puts the emergent podcast together to ask then not to use inappropriate language (which only happened once).
I do call my friends and associate (even as loosely nit as we are) into accountability… yet I never see that from people like you who claim to be calling the Body of Christ to a higher standard… Why should I or anyone listen to you when you come across as a joke? When you come across as someone who talks one way but then acts another? You seem to be as one very famous biblical character stated… “whitewash tombs full of dead man’s bones”… or more concerned “with the outside of the cup” and care little if the inside is truly “clean.”
If you are here to hold anyone to such a high standard… or write about how others are not holding a standard you see as “good enough” and do not even do it yourself… do I need say more?
Do your part to walk the talk you want others to do, then I might take you serious.
iggy
Oh btw Ken is obsessed with me… he likes to come to my blog and leave snide remarks all the time… yet, when I have tried to email him of my concerns he only tells me I am stupid or ignorant or whatever thing he wants so he does not need to address the things I state.
Can anyone there give a real answer? It seems not.
If one could then we might have a real discussion…
iggy
I love the hymns also, kind of like musical Shakesphere. But I prefer to sing them like meaninful choruses and not as starchy, bland words off the page. Make them personal. Remember most hymns are written in the second person (Let all God’s people praise the Lord) while praise and worship songs today are in the first person (I praise you LOrd from my heart).
Matt,
Your statement that ODM’s believe that Church is a building is WAY OFF the Mark.
The Church, the ekklesia (the ones called out) is made up of those whom Christ has called out of the world, given faith to and marked as His own. When the church gathers they do so to receive God’s word, Christ’s forgiveness, respond with worship and thanksgiving, pray and receive the Lord’s Supper. I do not know a single ODM that believes otherwise.
Acts 2:42   And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.
You also said:
For nearly two thousand years Christians of all cultures shared a common liturgy and hymnody that crossed all earthly cultural barriers. Those who still follow this liturgy can participate in worship with other Christians across the globe even if they don’t speak the same language or ethnic culture. This has only recently been lost. The reason we lost it is because of the insistence on dividing the church along musical tastes.
Gal. 3:28 is no longer true. It says that in Christ, “there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free,”
Today it should “there IS white and black, goth and freak for None are United in Christ but each keeps to himself”
We’ve created a bunch of worship consumers who claim their ‘worship experiences’ are less than satisfactory unless the music fits their current favorite musical genre.
Well I like music from the 80s like Duran Duran and Van Halen. Does that mean I’d have a more fulfilling worship experience if I found a church whose music fit those styles? Isn’t the content of the lyrics more important than the style?
new tactic, same old tripe.
Now it’s about an obsession with Ken…
whatever Chris.
Just because you and your friend’s tantrum sites don’t go unopposed is no reason to try to take the high ground.
It may seem childish, but the reality is you guys came vomiting onto the scene and people don’t have to lay down for it.
People don’t have to take it.
Your friends can’t have it both ways:
Be “leading voices” of opposition in the truth war, raising their swords of the spirit because it seems good in the Lord, O flock.
And then take some kind of tack of being piled on because they’re poking people in the eye with impunity.
You’re right that you aren’t Ken, but you yourself have been clearly told that you are guilty of the same tactics. It doesn’t matter if it’s Ken, your mom, or boo-kitty. It’s the tactics.
why, oh, why, oh, why can’t you at least own something?
Honestly, Chris, I sometimes agree with the substance of your complaints. I even said I agree with your questions about worship. (But the fact that you miss that stuff reveals a lot about you.)
Why should people have to wade through your and your friend’s unecessarily inflammatory crap to get to the issues?
Why can’t you own that the bombastic, high flown language and the polemic right out of the gate have created the adversarial environment that you use as a sign of being justified?
(”They resist us, so we must be right.” That’s crazy talk and that is the essence of all that remnant and war imagery.)
Frustration about those tactics that claim the sanction of God is a justifiable frustration.
Seriously, it’s people like you and your friends that have made my ministries so much harder because it’s not just a little thing on the internet. What happens here is symptomatic of how many people comport themselves in the world. I’ve seen too many of your kind in too many churches. You treat people like dirt–on a good day–and then when people don’t want to take it you say it’s a sign of rebellion to the bible…or God…or whatever…what we’re really in rebellion to is YOU and your particular demand that we live and express our life with God the way your PREFERENCES and INTERPRETATIONS guide YOU.
Nobody cares if you do church, the Christian life the way you are led to Chris R…Good on ya!!! Go for it…
You’re just so arrogant as to believe a particular stream of North American middle class social respectibility is equivalent to biblical christianity for all.
I’m sorry we all just don’t lay down for your wisdom.
No doubt you are the people and all wisdom will die with you.
There. That’s not about Ken, Chris R.
That’s about YOU.
enjoy that today.
hmmmm….
you can’t speak for Ken, but you can speak for all ODM’s?
whatever.
Chris R,
You already do this… you are Lutheran and go to a Lutheran church… you do not go to the Baptist or some other church… you choose your brand that you like and go to it…
Do you not realize not all Christians even have that luxury in other countries? They are just happy to find another believer in Christ to fellowship with… and you are trying to push you “brand” of fundamentalism as THE brand that is only right.
It really makes me sick to see how you take fellowship with God and other believers and reduce it to some perverted platform for you to display your own self indulgence and call it pure.
iggy
Do you ever read Slice of Laodicea, and the polemics about churches which don’t own a building and, instead, meet in a movie theater or a pub? While Ingrid might agree with your statement in fact, in practice this is something she blurs – at high volume – on a frequent basis….
There are a number of other forces and practical considerations which drive this, Chris, apart from the oft-characterized ’smorgasbord’ or ‘choose-what-you-like’ mentality.
1) Most churches I am familiar with are strapped for space (which is typically an indication, at least in my area, of good stewardship of the space they own). As such, there is a need for multiple services. (My own church has 4,000 members in 4 services.) If you do not have something that differentiates between the services without affecting the message, you will have incredible difficulty balancing out the attendance in each service. The easiest neutral element to change between the services is musical style, which also tends to bring other benefits.
2) Many churches are built on the small-group model, where your primary ‘church family’ is the small group you meet with during the week. When the small groups come together for Sunday morning (or Saturday evening) worship with the larger body of the church, there is already a diversity in place that goes deeper than the skin.
3) Service times: There is some natural selection which goes on – even in churches which do not change musical styles across worship services – simply based on the time of the service. Early morning Sunday brings in a disproportionally older group; Saturday night brings in a much more casual (often non-traditional) group; late Sunday morning brings in a much younger crowd. Recognizing these differences, you come to see that they really place your “musically neutral” point in a different place for each group!
4) Your ethnicity/sub-culture mix is not likely to shift past the mix in the community in which you exist. My church, for instance, is in a rural/suburban area just outside of Indianapolis, where the local population of African Americans (as an example) is about 2%. Therefore, it’s not a surprise that the AA attendance in my church runs right at about 2%… With that said, though, I agree that churches should avoid the subtle signals which sometimes cause ethnic self-segregation to occur.
I was struck by Ingrid’s admiration for a certain wooden pulpit of old whose carpentry design, she said, lent itself to visually displaying the importance of God’s Word through God’s man. So it isn’t true that some ODMs do hold even the externals concerning buildings as important.
Iggy,
You twisted my words and completely dodged my point and my question. I thought emergents were into having ‘conversations’ and being open to other peoples’ ideas and expressions. I’m not feeling that from you.
NC,
I don’t think we’ve been introduced. Hi, I’m Chris Rosebrough. It’s a pleasure to meet you. Let me shake your hand. What?! You won’t shake my hand? Sheeesh you look really angry and upset. I understand that you’re an emergent. Is that true? Maybe we can have a ‘conversation’ some time after you’ve calmed down.
Nice snide remarks Chris.
You and NC both need to learn:
DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU.
I’m tired of bringing this up. All of your anger, discord, and slander towards each other is just this big cycle of antichrist attitude. Get over it. “He started it” doesn’t apply here, and certainly doesn’t work with God.
Joe
Rick,
Christians through the centuries have used architecture as a means of expressing their theologies. It can be a wonderful way of ‘experiencing’ a theology or even teaching one. But again the church is not a building and I do not know a single ODM that believes that is the case, and yes I dialog with many of them on a regular basis.
Since many of the ODM’s read this site and the comments on it for research and entertainment, I’m sure that if one of them actually believes the “church” is the physical building then I welcome invite them to correct me. In fact we could have an emergent conversation about the whole topic as soon as the emergents here start showing some love for their neighbor named Chris Rosebrough.
Joe C,
I wasn’t being snide. I meant every single word that I wrote.
wow. Chris R.
There you guys go again…
using the “conversation” tripe as a means to complain.
The conversation is about people who genuinely want to converse, openly, with humility about your own position.
But you and your friends always come in on blast and then complain that we’re hypocrites about conversing when we tell you that your tone and approach actually hurts conversation.
It’s a brilliant tactic. I have to hand it to you.
Also, you represent an attitude and particular perspective that mistakes itself for being lock step with the mind of God.
It’s a dominating, arrogant and unbiblical view that has dominated the “conversation” for some time.
You have a place at the table, Chris R, but could it be to restrain the monologue of your sub-culture and listen more then talk? Could it be that for all your self-righteous truth-bearing that you betray the truth by your less than irenic spirit?
Could it be that you are manipulators who come into a conversation, kick people in the shins and then cry “victim” when someone rightly rebukes you?
Could it be that you and your friends just don’t know “how to play well with others” and thus you have to be shut down from time to time because you poison the environment that needed to have any real dialogue?
Conversation for you guys is not honest, measured, rational disagreement, but on blast attacks about the hearts of genuine people and then whining when we don’t let you dominate us.
You should read more Augustine…he had a lot to say about your sinful dominating behavior.
That’s not attributing motives, Chris R. That’s the record of your actual deeds.
And again…that’s not about Kenny.
That’s about YOU.
Chris R,
I wasn’t necessarily talking about your most recent comment…
You have a conscience, you know what you’ve done and not done. I’m just trying to yell out to the crowd: Stop the Christian murder.
Joe
Chris R,
I’m not emergent, so I’m not in favor of them or against them. But YOU, have been just as ‘bad’ as the (one or two) emergents who post comments here. Maybe you should start loving your neighbors more??? Gosh man, take the plank out of your eye. Everyone can see it here. And we’re NOT all apostates who you don’t have to listen to.
Sheesh. =(
Joe
NC,
In case you haven’t been paying attention, I have actually been have some VERY PLEASANT and rational conversations with a few of the people on this site. If that isn’t proof that I want to have a conversation then I don’t know what else I can do for you.
If all you want to do is vent on me about your anger for ODM’s then we will never be able to have any type of conversation or dialogue. If you don’t like a doctrine or a position that I hold and defend then show me from scripture how God’s word teaches something different. I love those types of dialogues. Taking personal shots at me isn’t exactly a great way to start a conversation. But, dialoging about thoughts and ideas and doctrines can be very enjoyable and edifying. We can all benefit from that.
But, I do believe there is a such thing as absolute truth and sound doctrine and I think the Post-Mods are flat out wrong when they say that is arrogant to believe such things. If you’re going to accuse me of being arrogant every time I claim that absolute truth can be know and defended and that someone is wrong when the contradict that truth, then we’re going to get no where because you are
“arrogantly holding to the ‘absolute truth’ that it is arrogant to believe that you can know ‘absolute truth’.
That new friend is a self-defeating truth claim and they bore me to tears because of their stupidity.
Actually Chris R…
I’m not an “emergent”.
There’s no such thing.
And the fact that people still go around implying that there are people who self-identify as an “emergent” like some do a “baptist” just shows are obtuse some of you really are.
I do have friends that are part of an network of relationships.
But that nuance is clearly lost on you and your friends.
But I know that broad brush grouping helps keep things intellectually and emotionally simple for you.
Chris R., you’ve never come here facilitating actual dialogue.
You’ve come here on blast, kicking people in the shins.
Don’t make their justifiable frustration “the problem”.
If we’re angry at you and your friends, that’s not the issue.
The issue is “why” we’re angry?
So the problem is you, Chris R.
I’m not witholding anything from you because I’m angry.
You’re not safe.
You and your friends have a fake calling to a fake ministry to hurts people, not even trys to help them if they really are wrong.
Being honest about that is not being mean.
To say it is is weak.
Unless…and in typical fashion…not rolling over and taking it and bowing to you people is “being mean”.
if that’s the case…then you got me…and I’m glad to be it.
save the self-righteous tripe, Chris R.
We’re all full up here.
Joe C,
Iggy and NC have both just laid into me and vomited all their anger and bile on me. So now I have a few options.
1. Ignore the anger and try to work past it (tried that and it didn’t work).
2. Forget even trying to have a conversation because its not worth it. (defeatist attitude)
3. Call out their behavior and see if they put their anger away and so we can actually have a conversation. (I’m trying that but I’m getting pummeled for even calling out their bad behavior. I’m not claiming perfection for myself here by doing this. I’m just saying that is no way to have a conversation. Comprendo?)
Wow. Thanks again, Chris R.
YOu don’t know anything about my views of truth.
So please save the attribution of a particular view on truth that only a very few Post-mod’s (in your parlance) actually hold to.
I’m actually a lot closer to you then you might think.
Surprising as that may be.
And I don’t take personal shots at you.
I take issue with your behavior, your comportment, (regardless of the blessed few that don’t have the misfortune of you and your friends ire being experienced.)
I don’t speak as an “emergent”.
I speak as me who has seen too many lives destroyed by churches full of people who go on blast at people right out of the gate.
I’ve been a pastor whose job was made more difficult then it already is by this kind of attitude in action.
It’s a justice issue, it’s a sin issue wrapped in the hardened “righteousness” of people who, in principle, may be spot on, but whose hearts and actions are far from the Spirit of Christ.
And yes, I’m angry about it. And I’m not sorry that I am.
I don’t know why anyone wouldn’t be…
just being honest with you Chris R.
And that’s a start for a real conversation, if you really want one.
I’m offering.
NC,
So If I understand you correctly, then all the people at Emergent Village do not actually self-identify as emergents because they are actually nuanced networkers in relationships?
Sorry but saying Emergent is just a lot easier. Saying “nuanced networkers in relationships” takes too many key strokes. So from now on when I say Emergent I actually mean “nuanced networkers in relationships”. That way you don’t mistakenly think I’m misrepresenting your nuance.
How’s that?
Yeah I got you Chris. I’m just saying, don’t throw stones in a house made of glass.
I think you’re both wrong, just an outside perspective. Take it for what you will.
I’ve seen you have good convos here, in Christian love, and I’ve seen you do exactly what NC has seen you do. So…it’s time for everyone to reflect on their sins. Thanks.
Joe
Chris R,
I am trying to keep you on point of the conversation you and I are having… and it is YOU who seem to twist things and turning this to be about me… I am saying to you now that you are one that dodges questions and does not want to be held to be accountable to your own actions and words…
I guess the point is that you are making is that you do not care to have your talk and walk match… and that is fine with me. It means you are not one to take serious.
As far as your “feelings” it seems that no one on your side of the park there cares about anyone but there own little ghetto so again, please face your own sin and go and confront your own people instead of taking issue with me. You guys all seem to be able to dish it out but seem so thinned skinned as far as taking it back. LOL!
I really have to laugh though as it seems you act like you know so much about me and can judge me from where you are and yet not one thing you have stated about me is true and are only based on your assumptions of what I am supposed to be.
On the contrary I have gone to numerous different churches and seen and interacted with many different people… so I know who and what you are about. That is no condemnation in that if you read it that way… And I might state that many Lutherans would not agree with you on much of the things you bring up here.
iggy
The term “emergents” is either wittingly or unwittingly a tool that gives the impression that there is harmony of thought, unity of agenda and purpose that is typically driven by the theologies of men like Brian McLaren, Doug Pagitt, etc.
Honestly, I don’t even read McLaren’s books. I’ve read 2 in the last 6 years. I don’t peg my ministries to these men’s thought. And I don’t know many folks who do.
My relationships in that network are with other ministers from wide denominational background’s who band together to encourage each other, provoke deep theological reflection and how it relates to actual praxis and, yes, sometimes, a place to strategize how to survive when faced by people in our congregations who think loving Jesus means bludgeoning people with “the truth”.
That’s why I object to that term and it’s useage. It automatically indicates a definable group with a definable agenda when the praxis and even the particular theological commitments of my friends are too diverse to allow for that.
I’m anglican, but I hang out with some presby’s–liberal and conservative, some lutherans–same, some non-denom guys, etc.
So do you see my point about how the term is really useless because it creates inaccurate understanding?
NC,
While I was composing my previous post you were posting yours. Had I been able to read it first my response would have been different.
I AM interested in having a real conversation with you and with any one else on this site.
By the way, I don’t claim ANY righteousness of my own. I AM the chief of sinners. I am not here to say look how holy I am you rotten bunch of sinners. Instead, when I Contend for the faith, I define the faith as Christ Crucified for Sinners of whom I am the worst. That is the Biblical Gospel message and without that gospel I am lost for eternity because the debt of my sin exceeds my ability to pay.
So don’t think for a second that I think I am righteous. I am anything but!
Chris R,
I have not vomited on you but call you out as to being a man and walking the same way you are talking… if that is vomit I feel sorry for you! Nothing I have stated was out of hate toward you… but I will not let someone stand there and lie to me and then thing they can get away with it…
Comprendo?
iggy
I’ll admit that I get snarky, and that it can offend.
So for that I’m sorry, Chris R.
Iggy,
I do not dodge real questions from people who are actually trying to dialog. Go back and look at the questions I’ve answered in this thread. They are my proof.
That being said, I will not engage with a person who blasting me for whatever sins they think I’ve committed by siding with Ken Silva and working with him.
If you want to dialog, then pick a subject make a point, plant a flag in the ground and ask a few questions soliciting opinions. If I give an answer or opinion that is wrong or doesn’t take all the data into consideration tell me because that is exactly what I’d do for you. I can handle being wrong and don’t mind being told it. It helps me grow.
I can’t say I see the same attitude from you guys. You act like you’ve got it all figured out and you dogpile on anyone who would commit the sin of telling you or anyone else that they are wrong (especially if you detect even the slightest hint of sarcasm or snarkyness) Quit being the emotion police.
Sheesh, let’s debate some ideas and doctrines and not take things personally.
NC,
I’m sorry that we got off on the wrong foot.
I was hoping we could have a civil discussion and I am VERY excited that it looks like that will be the case.
What would you like to talk about?
Pssst…NC….say: “monkeys”….or “elephants in church”….
Joe =)
Soooooo anyway…the woman can preach!
Chris R,
Why will you not face these sins? Why do you think anyone should listen to you until you confess them?
I am not saying that siding with Ken is a sin, but that condoning Ken’s sin is a sin… get the difference?
iggy
Thanks Chris R.
I guess I would be interested in if you see any merit to the concerns that I talked about from my own experience in ministry?
Let me be clear: I think truth is important. I think it is knowable. I agree with Luther that theology is about making “assertions” so I don’t have a problem with disagreement.
I guess my question is:
Do you believe that any care needs to be given that our assertions, if offensive, are only offensive in their content and not in their delivery? Since we’re giving “the poison pill” to some people, should we be careful to do it in a pastoral way?
I’m not asking you so I can then grill you…
I just don’t understand what I see is, at times, a disregard for any need to be careful of the “disagreeableness” factor in our disagreeing…
I know I can be disagreeable when I have no relational basis or relationship to protect… =)
is the key “relationships”, building credibility and trust with each other?
thanks…
I would shudder to think that that is the only value of a woman preaching.
But you know, two weeks and about 200 comments ago, I said my piece. Very tiring, this constant theme.
Jumping in way late and I didn’t read all the comments but a few things.
Chris R. said:
I’ll just say that if it was a white woman reading poetry at a church you would never have made that statement. But I won’t go down that road again.
In regards to the question about Ken and how he feels about Christian Rap music and woman preaching. Much of what Ken says and writes I don’t agree with however I do believe that has a heart for the lost, particularly the inner city. I’ve seen nothing to the contrary of that.
On woman preaching I’ve not read anywhere where Ken has an issue with this. Can someone provide a link?
*edit*
I believe Ken is sincere in his statements about urban ministry. I can not be certain where he stands on particular issues facing the urban church.
Julie,
It is nothing personal against you. I happen to believe the Bible does not permit women to be Pastors. That is how I read the book.
Iggy,
I am not responsible for whatever sins you feel Ken has committed against you. If you need a moderator so that you can air your grievances I may be able to help you. But as long as you keep insisting that I am responsible for or condone the sins that you believe Ken has committed then I don’t know what else to tell you except I am not Ken.
NC,
You ask such a good question and one that I wrestle with that myself.
Speaking the truth un-lovingly is contrary to scripture. The question I always come back to is how is love being defined. I am a firm believer in tough love and don’t believe that calling a spade a spade is unloving. It certain gets people upset though.
Chris R,
You miss the point over and over again… I am saying you are responsible for your own sin… and that sin is condoning Ken’s sin. As you have set yourself under his ministry at CRN you need to take responsibility for being a part of CRN.
If you do not then you have no right to state anything against Emergent Village as a group but only as individuals… I have not issue with that. But to insist ALL at EV or that all people in the ec are wrong, is like me stating you are all wrong at CRN.
That is not true not all are “wrong”. Yet, If I was a member of Emergent Village and knew one of the people there was in sin, I would confront them in love also.
Over and over you make this out about me… I see that as dishonest of you. It is not about me. Tell me of my sin and I will confess it if guilty. This is about you and you being a part and under Ken Silva’s ministry at CRN. You cannot deny it is his ministry… Just as all who write here are under Chris L.’s ministry. Ken has the last word at CRN.
iggy
Iggy,
I don’t believe in the concept of ’sinful by association’. You’ll have to quote some scripture here if you want to prove otherwise.
Regarding diversity in the Emergent church. I personally have always recognized the diversity of the movement and that individuals may or may not believe the same things taught by McLaren, Pagitt, or Jones. The problem with writing against Emergents is that their doctrines are sooo loose and diverse that writing against McLaren’s version of Emergent ideas will cause you to run afoul of the Emergents living in Montana.
I think it would be helpful if the NON neo-liberal Emergents would call themselves something else. It would help cut down the “friendly fire”.
Ya’ll should have a Name Contest
Chris R,
So if your pastor sins at your church you will say and do nothing about it? Yet, you will talk smack about emergents and such without a second thought? LOL! You cannot see the hypocrisy in that?
Each person is to account for their own sin, yet many “groups ” were judged as a group… so many in fact that many God wiped out entire nations in the OT.
If you want a NT example, God judged the Jews as a whole nation and not just as individuals as in the case when Jesus stated that they would have a veil blind them until the age of the gentiles was done… so there are quite a few examples of what I am speaking of.
Yet, again each are judged as individuals by God. What I am stating is not by association, but directly you are sinning for letting Ken continue in his sin without doing anything about it.
I don’t get you… really… you state you are out to warn people of the evils of those who teach bad doctrine, yet refuse to face someone in your own camp who blatantly sins with lies and slander. In that you are willing to warn others of people like me, yet cannot see that it is people need warning of people like you who condone the sin of others… funny thing is this is laid out agianst “emergents” and I am here laying it back at your feet and you refuse to acknowledge it. LOL! You guys claim we use Grace as a liscense to sin, yet do the same thing! LOL! Romans 2 has a bit to say on that one.
iggy
(I didn’t take it personally. I rarely do.)
Iggy,
I don’t defend sin and I don’t defend ‘talking smack’ against Emergents.
Again, Iggy if you need to air your grievances with Ken please do so and be done with it. You obviously believe he’s committed all kinds of sins and evil. Please, Please, Please follow the Biblical rule and go and confront him with his sins. If that doesn’t work two of you can go and if that doesn’t work…..
Just curious Chris R, have you done that with everyone you’ve posted about?
Tim,
Thanks for acknowledging me.
I’m not so sure I need to take that course yet. I don’t have a list of grievances and sins that I need to air with anyone here. That doesn’t mean I haven’t been sinned against, or for that matter that I myself haven’t sinned.
It is clear that Iggy and others here feel that they have been PERSONALLY wronged by Ken Silva. It really has morphed into a PERSONAL thing.
I remember when this site was started. There was a strong sense of purpose to this site to right the wrongs of Ken and Ingrid. But, as a far as causes go, that is a pretty lame cause cause Ken and Ingrid are just mere sinful people. Let’s just pretend you win your Battle with Ken and Ingrid. What would that look like. Ken and Ingrid will never stop writing against error and false teachers. If you ‘win’ then maybe you’d feel that they had become softer and nicer and more accurate in their reporting. That is not much of a victory. There would always be a few of you who would never be satisfied with that result.
I must confess, even though I am an avid reader of this site, I don’t know if I truly understand your mission.
Chris R,
Correction, Ken has wronged people… it is not just a feeling and you are part of a group he leads in doing more harm… who you are a contributor to the same harm as so condone it…
You keep side stepping this as not your issue and it is. It is truly sad you will not acknowledge that you are part of CRN and approve of what Ken does in his harming of others… it is like you may have not cast the stone yourself but you held them in your hands and shouted “get them Ken” from the sideline… in that just as Paul did not cast the stone against Steven he was still guilty of approval of his death sentence…
If you cannot see your own guilt of sin in this, I pray that God open your eyes to free you of it.
Yes, Ken and Ingrid are simply sinful people as I am also, which really does not make your case at all, in fact those words add more to ours!
It is a mockery for you to tell us you want to converse yet refuse to even listen. In fact you keep changing the conversation to others and never face what you do and continue to do.
Can you in fact accept responsibility for your own actions instead of blaming others or adding distance from it when you are standing smack in the middle of it?
Maybe sin has hardened your heart so you cannot see it… and that is why you are blinded to the mission of mercy and justice this site calls for.
iggy
Iggy,
Fine you win! Ken Silva eats small children for breakfast everyday. He wears a fur coat the he made himself from the kittens that he kills with a baseball bat for fun every afternoon and it is ALL MY FAULT Because I’ve posted information at CRN.
Please convene the war tribunal. I am worse than Stalin and Osama Bin Laden. I really should hang for whatever sins you think Ken Silva has committed against you and the Montana strain of non-neo-liberal Emerging Emergents.
I have been ignoring Ken Silva for months now. I feel fine.
Chris R,
Think about all the accusations you’ve slung here on the basis of what evidence, and then not a single peep out of you when Ken lies insults, and slanders regularly.
Can’t you see how that would create a credibility gap? Its tough to muster the motivation to discuss anything with you considering the relative fairness of the shakes you’ve given.
Chris R,
I thought you were a mature Christian…
Again, I hope you are trying to add humor and that is fine… I am not stating you are a worse person than I am myself… nor have I ever stated Ken “eats small children for breakfast everyday”, I am only stating that you do as you are telling me to do, which I have explained to you at least 3 times I already have and now appeal to you as one who contributes to Ken’s ministry CRN… if you are a part of that ministry HE HEADS, then Ken is the Head of you… or do you not understand the teaching of submission in scripture?
You can play all the games you want, but I hope you have a good excuse to tell Jesus why you let a brother continue in sin and attacked others in His Name. I am sure He will have much to say then as Scripture states now for you to do.
Also, IF that was an apology, I find it most mocking of one… have some respect for people… remember Jesus died on a Cross for me also…
I just hope that somehow I can get through past your “me” based faith.
iggy
Tim,
Have you ever stopped to think that I don’t think your charges against Ken are credible because of the complete and utter pettiness and shallowness of your so-called charges? Personally, you guys sound like a bunch of whiny school girls. Like I’ve said before you guys are OBSESSED with KEN SILVA and the REALLY funny thing is you are guilty of ALL of the same things that you accuse him of! I’d laugh if I didn’t feel so concerned for your well being.
In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if some of you have a nervous twitch that surfaces every time you see the name KEN SILVA. I wouldn’t be surprised if some of you have nightmares about Ken Silva lurking under your bed like the boogy man waiting to pounce on you. Ken Silva must be the Dark Lord himself! Look at the power he has over your minds! Wake Up!
Chris R,
Whatever. I told you why you’re viewed as completely lacking credibility, you can ignore it, and that’s fine, but expect it to be a continual topic that’s brought up whenever you comment.
Chris R,
I appeal to scripture to rebuke you that slander and lies are “pettiness”.
I hope you can start to see the truth and it will set you free from your condoning of Ken Silva’s sin and in your approval and him as he practices it.
iggy
Iggy,
My hands are tied here. We have a Policy at CRN for handling these types of Issues. Our Policy clearly states that If you have a grievance with KEN SILVA and believe he has sinned against you, that you must Contact KEN SILVA and lay out your case to him.
That’s our policy at CRN. That’s the way Ken wants it. I wouldn’t want to go against Ken and get on his bad side. I’ve seen what happens to people when they get on Ken’s bad side. I can’t let that happen to me because from the looks of you guys I could never afford the therapy.
Tim,
My point to you is that your credibility is also in question because of the tactics that you employ.
I went to your blog earlier today and read the article you wrote about the Prosperity Preachers. It was a good article. In it you said something that struck a chord with me.
You said:
“Rhetorical Hand Grenades†is a very poignant word picture. I use a term that is similar to yours. My phrase is “Doctrinal Drive by Shootingâ€.
What are the chances that the running battle between you guys and the ODM’s has degenerated into a theological ‘gang fight’?
You can’t maintain credibility if you complain about someone lobbing a “Rhetorical Hand Grenade” at you or anyone else while lobbing a “Rhetorical Hand Grenades” of your own back at them.
Chris R,
The rhetorical handgrenades I’ve tossed at prosperity preachers who have little or no gospel in their “ministry” have been no where near as harsh as the ones lobbed by yourself, Silva, and others at sincere brothers and sisters who are looking at the scriptures as authentically as they can.
Not only that but they’ve been void of personal insults, and they’ve been true. Things that can’t be said of many watchdoggie posts.
Chris R,
How convenient for you… Jesus will be sure to take note of the small print I am sure! LOL!
Then my grievance is with you and your condoning of Ken Silva’s sin…
deal with it.
At least my conscience is clear for trying to warn you.
iggy
Iggy, it can’t be any plainer! Chris R doesn’t think that Ken is doing anything wrong……
Tim,
Your grenades are every bit as insulting as the ones that you claim to be offended by. (BTW, I’m not saying that mine have not been insulting or saying that I’m right because you do it too. I’m saying that all parties have sinned here.)
Do you really want to carry on like this?
Iggy,
Your system has locked up. You need to reboot.
This site is nothing like CRN. Apples and oranges. That’s my honest opinion.
This is coming from the guy who used to like CRN et al more than this site. Honestly.
Joe
We at agendalesslove.wordpress.com wholly claim all and any references to “drive-by” in the blogosphere. Any use without the written consent of those here in mentioned will be cause for trademark infringement and deemed unlawful.
Nah! Just kidding. As if I needed to tell you that.
In case anyone hasn’t picked up on it yet I like to point out that I came up with that term! LOL
I’m offended by all the offending going on in this thread.
Wll, Julie – I’m offended and your offense of all the offending going on on this thread…
Joe said, “This is coming from the guy who used to like CRN et al more than this site. Honestly.”
Me too, brother! They lost me about a year ago!!
Chris R,
Sin is sin and if you condone it, then go and do so… but do not pull me into your own sin.
I am not “offended” but am warning… if you cannot see you sin then go and pray and ask God to reveal it.
I see that really the issue is you have no respect for me as I am just a string of labels you put together, “the Montana strain of non-neo-liberal Emerging Emergents”.. for example…
I have shown your from scripture how you are guilty and you turn from scripture and justify your own actions by stating jokes.
Now, jokes are funny… and I appreciate the try… but they do not lessen sin.
I find it truly sad that you who consider yourself so righteous that can accuse me and others of things without any actual proof, can stand even over scripture and feel you can justify yourself from it, but it makes sense since you mix Law and Grace.
Now, if I was to lower myself I would call you the “baptism salvationist” or the one who adds works to the blood of Christ” or “the one who thinks water is better than blood” but we wont go there… but i have not stated that I think that that doctrine in and of itself negates the Cross of it’s true glory.
In fact I have only stated that you condone sin… and yes it seems I am repeating myself and be the Holy Spirit true those words will haunt you until you confront your own sin.
Again, i am of clear conscience and will move on. But be assured I will not waste my time in conversation with you as I see you as one not sincere in faith and that you are one who mouths only words… you profess but I do wonder i He really does possess you and you Him.
I am not saying you are not saved, but he who hates his brother, the truth is not in him… I see that you hold to your own justification over that of Jesus and that you also hold to your own righteousness in exchange for Jesus’ righteousness.
You are like a man who looked in a mirror and then after walking away forgot what his own face looked like.
My prayers are with you that you come to the fuller knowledge of the Grace, Mercy and Love of Christ.
iggy