THIS JUST IN!
in Commentary, Emergent Church, Ken Silva, Linked Articles, ODM Responses, ODM Writers, Theology, What Can You Say?
10
Dec
apparently Peter and Paul preached universal atonement! Read this!
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, (I Peter 3:18)
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. (Eph 2:8-9) ** note, there is no limitations on the “you”. “You” must be referring to everyone!
DID YOU READ THAT!! He said that Christ died for ALL!!! All will be SAVED!!!! Peter and Paul were a UNIVERSALIST!!!!
I guess you can twist anything to have it fit your agenda, right Ken?
for the record — the bible doesn’t preach universalism.
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48 Comments(+Add)
I haven’t ever researched Rod Bell’s theology so I am asking this question to people on this site that seem to have researched his theology. Do you think he is preaching universal attonement outside of Christ or strictly in Christ. Is there a source where he addresses this with more clarity? Could Rob Bell be preaching from these scriptures?
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our’s only, but also for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2 KJV).
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation: even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life (Romans 5:18 KJV).
Just asking, not debating……..yet
F Whittenburg
When you are “flattered” to be on Rob Bell’s Wikipedia page, you have to keep those articles coming.
Link to Apprising
I would suggest you read the doctrinal statement for Mars Hill, Bell’s church, or Bell’s book in context rather than any article that chooses to pull a particular sentence and attribute some agenda to it.
http://www.marshill.org/pdf/narrativeTheology.pdfÂ
For the record, I did not read the article from Apprising Ministries because past experience has shown me that I cannot trust what is written there. There may be some or a lot of truth, but the guessing and assuming that are added are not research worthy of serious thought.
Darren,
I agree, when I find a site that is a mixture of assumptions and facts and things just pulled out of the air and… it seems to be a huge waste of time. Most the time if I see name calling I can spot that as as person who is so biased that it is not worth my time.
Now, someone I might recommend is Matt Slick. I might not agree with him, yet one can see there is more time put in quality research. He makes assumptions, yet he also tries to be fair… he also WAS mentored by Walter Martin… and did not purchase a bunch of tapes and then tell everyone Walter was his mentor… Like Ken did… even though Ken never met or knew Walter.
iggy
I will look into Matt Slick. I have been using carm.org for years but did not know who was behind it.
I would add Mike Corely to the list of someone who is worth listening to. I have listened to about 40 of his radio programs and have found him to be very fair.
I tried Mike but I could not get through the whole program… of course it was with Ken Silva and after the first few minutes I just got bored and turned it off…
But the Doug Pagitt interview is pretty good at Matt’s site… I have not heard the M. Driscoll interview yet. Again, I did not agree with all Matt stated, but I have gone to CARM a few times myself and found it a good resource. It reminded me of the Bible Answer man of the old days.
iggy
pretty poor examples. I don’t understand some of Rob Bell comments in Velvet Elvis, like hell is full of forgiven people. This does not deal with the topic. But what we say in the context it is said is import. Although the path he is on can be very slippery. I think that is the point that they are making. That was this statement and ones like are accepted this will lead to great and great confusion and heresay. The man debate I think with the two sides is between universal redemption or definte(limited) atonment. That is why this statement is confusing. If people are fogiven by God and loved why are they in hell?
Kyle,
I have to admit that out of all the supposed “controversies” in Velvet Elvis that people bicker over this one surprises me the most. I think it’s easy to see even in human relationship that forgiveness and reconciliation are different things. We can forgive someone for an act a long time before reconciliation takes places. The person may not want to acknowledge guilt, the may not know there was an offense, etc. In any case we can forgive them.
This is much the way I view God’s offer of reconciliation to us. He has taken the first step. He is just waiting for our response. The offer is available to all. If you want to call that Arminianism, fine.
As far as forgiven people being in Hell, I don’t see why that’s so hard to grasp. When Jesus was on the cross, He asked God to forgive all who were killing Him. Did they all accept that forgiveness? Not that I can tell. Forgiveness is an offer that we have to choose to accept.
Yes I agree somewwhat. Christ sacfice was a propitation for our sins. Is is complete and finished. One payment for sins. If God had Jesus pay for someone’s sins then why would they also have to pay in hell! This is double jepoardy and an injustice if this is the way God operates.
If I had a 100,000 fine and could not pay so I was going to jail for a long time to pay that fine and a man walked into the court room paid the judge the full amount could the judge still throw me in jail for the fine? No because it is paid in full. The greek word for “It is finished” was used at the time as a stamp on bills(taxes) meaning paid in full. So if my fine is paid in full then why would I have to pay again? Again this is a debate between unversial and limited atonment.
Kyle,
Here is an interesting verse for your consideration…
Now if Jesus became sin for us, and Jesus died on the Cross… what happened to sin?
Just as Jesus died, so sin also died.
If you area Calvinist, you will just say that it was just for the Elect, but scripture states it was for all men…in was dealt with at the cross “Once and for all” All men are reconciled.
In fact that is what Paul states above this very verse…
The only sin that will cause a man to go to hell is the rejection of Jesus Christ. If he rejects Jesus then he is a forgiven man, but by default rejected Jesus and is so rejected by Jesus at the Judgement.
At the Cross all men are reconciled… and we are forgiven, but forgiveness only opens us to salvation, it is not salvation in and of itself… what we are then with only the Cross is forgiven dead men.. for the wages of sin is death, and dead men need life.
Romans states
We are reconciled at the death of Jesus on the cross but saved by His Life… for the Life is in the Son… and the Life was given to men as they come to the empty tomb and see Jesus is alive and risen… we are saved by the Resurrection… for if Jesus had not risen, we would be forgiven but left in our state of eternal death.
Remember the statement God made in the Garden concerning the tree of Life? He cast them out so they would not eat of it and be lost in their fallen state for eternity. Here we have the opposite come true. Man must eat of Christ Jesus and take His Life into them to be saved.
This is the full Gospel and the reason so many have no power in their walk… for they believe the Cross, but have not received the Life… or if they have, they do not understand the power of the resurrection.
Be blessed,
iggy
So if I have commited the sin of unbelief in Jesus then I am not saved because that is the only sin not covered by Jesus? Then we are all doomed. Christ did not just make salvation possible on the cross He saved all that the Father had given to Him and He will lose none of the because no one(even me) is great than Him. The refernece to Hebrews means on sacfice for all the sins not for all the people. Did Christ die for the prophets of Baal? They had already been receiving the justice of God for over 1,000 years but yet Christ paid the penalty that they owe God? Read Owen’s book The death of death in the death of Christ. Great book hard read. These same discussion have been going on a long time and there have been great men on alsides of the discussion. Remember Christ work is finished he intercedes for us(all who beleive or the elect) because He is faithful! Was His death a substutionary death, Christ in my place taking my punishment? If Christ did this then would not ever man be saved from the judgement of God? How does one know if Christ died for Him? Well if the hear the gospel, repent, beleive ect.. then you can know for sure that you are elect. It does not end there if you keep the faith, finish the race, grow in holiness these are all things that make you calling and election sure. This is one of the many verse that says that Christ died for a group of all peoples! Not one race, or cultre but for the whole world! no this does not mean ever sinlge person that has ever lived this simple means that God is not a repecter of persons, He is not racist!
John 6:38-40 (English Standard Version)
38For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
I showed you the verses so your argument is with scripture not me…
Do you not believe Jesus’ blood is sufficient to take away the sins of the world?
That is all I showed you… and yes unbelief is what will separate us from God for eternity… for salvation is from Christ alone… or do you deny that? If so, then you are in trouble!!!
I am stating Christ works are finished…
really much of what I stated you seemed to not even grasp by your other comments… as it seems you take offense of my saying Jesus is how we are saved and that His blood is sufficient to take away the sins of the worlds… or as Paul stated…”that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them”.
So is this verse wrong?
LOL!
iggy
Kyle – What Bell should have said is that there are people in hell whose atonement was completely offered but never by faith placed upon the doorposts of their heart. They are not forgiven hence they are in hell forever. To belive that people who God has forgiven go to hell is unbibilcal and misrepresents the atonement.
Jesus died for the entire world, but that salvation is only effecatious through personal faith. The offer is universal, the result is counted among the redeemed by faith,
Kyle,
You are correct. These are age-old discussions, and it’s probably not worth going around and around.
I will say this. I think what you getting at is pointing to some of the limitations of the Penal Substitution theory of atonement. In that system, sin is man’s biggest problem, and Jesus came to deal with sin.
I tend to view sin as sympton of man’s separation from God, not the cause of it. The cause of the separation was the evil that came into the world when Adam and Eve listened to the serpent. This unleashed all kinds of havoc on the planet. Jesus came to conquer these forces and claim earth for God again. Through His death, the earth and the entire cosmos were reconciles back to God. Now, I believe that people still have a choice to not partake in this reconciliation. In the end, it’s like C.S. Lewis said, we can either say “Thy will be done to God” or God can say “Thy will be done” to us.
So have you commited the sin of unbelief?
Can you still go to heaven?
So can you beleive in Jesus and still pratice sin(pick any)?
So sin(exculding) is not what upset and cause the wrath of God only unbleif(which is a sin)?
If Christ work is finished and for ever person why are there people in hell?
What does the word world mean? Does it mean every person of evertime?
Does world mean all differnt peoples from the world or every person?
If men’s sins are not counted against them who are they counted against?
Who are these men? Just litterally males? All humans to ever live? Or the men God has given grace to?
How about the verses from John where Jesus says there is a group of poeple that He has be given and He will not lose?
Is that verse wrong?
No offence is taken by you saying that Jesus died and He is the only way! This is very true, this isthe gospel! But God has still told us that He has a people for Himself because of Christ work.
Titus 2:10-14 (English Standard Version)
11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.
Please note that God redeemed a people for His own possesion who are zealous for good works! Does”people” here mean everyone that ever lived? Does the word change in a couple sentences? Because it also says that the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people.
A good starting question would be what does the bible mean by salvation?
Phil
So what is the cause of this seperation from God? Was it listening to the seprent or acting on what the serpent said? Can you read the book of Romans and come to the conclusion that Christ was not here to die for mens sins? God will restore all of creation(the world and cosmos) to the state it should be in? How can he do that because of the death of Christ but God main concern was not the rocks being seprated from Him but that people where because we where enemies of God only fighting against everything that is good. We we sinners and God so loved us that He decided to deal with sin in bodily form. Everything starts at the beging. What is man, God, sin, salvation?
Without faith it is impossible to please God. We are saved by grace through faith.
Yes I total agree Rick. Where does faith come from?
It comes from God as does our free will, all from God.
Can we as men, apart from God, understand the gospel or things of God?
I do not know what you mean apart from God. Our intellects are from God, the material universe is a witness, and the gospel is simple. However, only the Holy Spirit can bring a man to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.
How all that works and to what chronology and proportion is a mystery.
Kyle,
I think the issue you are having is that you do not understand that “unbelief” is the “denial of Jesus”… Of course all believers have doubts once in a while, but true believers live by faith and not their feelings.
So again, it seems you are arguing in circles and miss the main point…
There will be people who spend eternity without God becuase that was their choice… they chose to be judged by their word against Jesus’… and in the end they exchanged Jesus’ righteousness for their own.
You are making this much more complicated if you ask me…
You are confusing forgiveness with salvation… you have place salvation only on the cross and not as Paul taught on both the Cross and Resurrection.
Forgiveness does not equate salvation or the Jews would not have needed Jesus as they had the blood of bulls and goats, but as Hebrews states: “But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. ” (Hebrews 10) Note it states that the blood of bulls and goats did not “take away sins” but Jesus’ blood did…
And yes according to Hebrews if one keeps on sinning there is no other sacrifice for sin except the one of Jesus… and having rejected that sacrifice, “only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.”
If one rejects Jesus and all his finished works they will not have eternal life… “for the Life is in the Son”… (1 john 5:11)
iggy
When I say things of God I mean spiritual things.
1 Corinthians 2:14
14The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
Well in Romans it has what is called the “golden chain” that gives some of the order of salvation. The reason I ask all this is that the only reason we believe in Christ is because of God. He reconciled Himself to us not only by paying the penalty for sin, but also by procurring the means of salvation for us. Faith, repantence, obedenice, endurance, gifts all these come from God because of what Christ has done. So if poeple in their entire life never show the sign of salvation then did Christ die for them? Did not Christ die to acutally save people. Like Titus says a people zealous for good works!
So forgiveness is outside of salvation? People can be forgiven but not saved?
Why are people that have never heard the gospel of Christ condmened or are they saved?
Is the sin of unbelief covered by the death of Christ?
my main point is that I used to hate God and did not believe in Christ! Like all people. So is this sin covered in Christ death? Am I saved because I believe or because Christ died?
Jesus did die to save people… yet, people must come to the Son to have Life and that Life is eternal… without the Life one cannot life the Life of a true believer.
John 3:36 states it this way…
Jesus also stated it this way in John 5: 24
Jesus rebuked the Pharisees in verse 39-40 for looking for eternal life in the scriptures…
One must have Life to have eternal Life and the Life is in the Son… to just believe we are forgiven and not have also received the Life… leaves on only a forgiven dead man… and what good is that? How can a dead man do the “good works” that God has for them to do, if they must depend on Jesus to do those works? They cannot, for if the Life of Christ Jesus is not in us, then all our works are our own and amount to nothing. One may be “saved” but only as one who passes through the fire… yet many will not be saved but have only been deluded to think they are. This is regeneration… or being born again… this is simple bible I am talking about.
iggy
We live by the life of the risen savior… and yes the sin of unbelief is covered if one comes to believe and receive they are saved…. they believe they are forgiven (that the blood of Jesus is sufficient to take away their sins) and receive the Life (the same life the raised Jesus from the dead and now raises us) and then they have salvation.
iggy
Yes I agree with everything you just stated! You must beleive, you must repent, you must have holiness, you must be born again! This is the sign and fruit of God’s people who are zealous for good works. These things only come to us because of the cross of Christ!
So if there forgiveness outside of salvation?
Are there people forgiven but not saved?
I agree with your last statement to. How can a bad tree produce good fruit? It can not. So if I was a bad tree producing bad fruit how then did I become a good tree producing good fruit? Through the life, death and ressurection of Christ. He is the gardner not us! We can not graffe ourselves into Christ!
Kyle,
I still feel like you’re not hearing what we’re saying. Forgiveness and justification are somewhat different things. Look at what Paul says in Acts 13:38-41, when he’s in Antioch:
It seems Paul was proclaiming foregiveness of sins before anyone had a chance to believe.
I see that from scripture all men are “reconciled” which is the same as forgiven. For one cannot be reconciled unless their debt was paid. So did Jesus pay the debt for all mankind or not? I understand if one is a Calvinist, they will not be able to agree with that… but that is what Scripture plainly states.
Calvin feared that it would lead to “Universalism” if all men were reconciled so he created “limited atonement” … which first off shows that he missed it was not “atonement” as atonement is just a covering and is what the OT sacrifices did… Jesus sacrifice “took away sin” as Jesus became sin and as God judged Jesus in our place, so sin was also judged. These are the finished works of Jesus at the Cross…. but the way we get Life is by the imparted Life of Christ by the power of the resurrection. I guess it is whether one wants to believe that Jesus was the Lamb of God that take away the sins of the world or not…. it is in how we choose to “behold” Him as John the Baptist stated…
iggy
Phil
I do agree forgiveness and justification are different but they are still all apart of salvation. Although they are linked also. Also forgiveness was long before the world began. It has always been God plan to reconcile the world to Himself through Christ. So I can produly claim that all who beleive will be forgiven, that God has truly forgiven the sins of the world!
Iggy
Calvin did not just make up this doctrine. In fact it was held long before him! It was Jacob, a student of John, that rejected this and came up with what he thought was more biblical. Then lead to the synod of Dort, no Calvin, where they reponded to Jacob and the T-U-L-I-P came from a reponse to Jacob. How do you see the passages in John where it says like the rest of the bible that God has a people he has called to Himself what the bible calls elect. Do you just dismiss that for the other portions? Again what do these words mean like “words” “sins” ect…?
Yes it took away the wrath of God!This is what is meant by propitiation.
25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
My question is what is biblical salvation?
This is actually a very good question. The word “salvation” probably meant something different to a Jewish reader than it does to you and I today. Salvation was more of a holistic concept to the Jewish people. Forgiveness of sins was one aspect of it, but it also included things like deliverance from oppression, healing of disease, restoration of God’s people, and eventually a hope for resurrection.
What it did not mean to Jewish people was that our disembodied souls go to heaven when we die. This was more a Greek concept that was later tied into Christian thought. Salvation in the Jewish sense was a much more “earthy” and organic thing in many ways.
I would just like to say how awesome it is to see an adult, calm, respectable theology debate. It it pretty rare with the ODMs. No one has called anyone a cult leader or apostate yet
what are odm’s?
I am not sure if you are asking me if I deny predestination… but no of course not… in fact I agree with Calvin’s definition being “the eternal plan of God in Christ Jesus”. Now, Jacob was a student of Calvin and in that he got the idea… and disagreed with Calvin… so i do not get where you say that it was not part of Calvin’s teachings originally. Universal atonement was what Paul taught by inspiration by Jesus so if we need to go for origins, I default to Jesus and Paul over Calvin… but let’s not be silly as if you truly understood propitiation you would get what i have stating and this conversation would not have been as long as it has! LOL!
Biblical salvation is as i have been stating over and over, to believe and receive and be made a New Creation… in that we have now the imputed righteousness of Christ so that we are in Him, and the imparted Life of Christ so that He is in us.
The knowledge of salvation comes through the forgiveness of sins… as Luke 1:76-77 states.
For without the forgiveness of sins man cannot be given life… for he is still under the old covenant of death.
We must be united with Christ in His death… so that as we then are dead in Him, we are freed from the Old Covenant… that is the work of the cross. Yet, also we must be united with Jesus in His resurrection.
Salvation comes in it’s fullness when Jesus returns and judges all men and some receive eternal life… and that is salvation.
iggy
Yes salvation does include us going to heaven. The bible says when we die we are absent from the body yet present with the Lord. Now I don’t know if this is what most christian call heaven but we will be with the Lord in non ressurection bodies if we die before His coming.
Also I was not just refering to the ways Jews thought of salvation, everything you included I agree with and there are more, but what does the whole bible say about salvation. The jewish concept of “earthy” salvation was wrong, that is why the never understood the gospel of the Christ! Look at Abraham he was the “Jew” but did he look to the promise of land and offspring as his salvation and that the ultimate fulfillment would be when he got that land. No he look for a city who designer and builder was God! So he understood “jewish” salvation to mean something differnt than the pharisses and saducess did! It is a now and later salvation with the ultimate fulfillment at the reutrn of Chist!
Note: I am sorry Jacob did not learn under Calvin but the succesor of Calvin.
I to defer to what the bible teaches regarding this. Calvin is wrong about things, Arminus was wrong about things along with other great men. I did not come to my conclusions from these books. I started reading a while after I started to see what I would latter call calvinism. We all say that the bible is the only authority! So Jesus says that there are a people that are His given to Him by the Father which will never be lost! That is what Jesus says! Now the bible also says we must repent, beleive, have holiness all of these things. But which comes first God’s election or our choosing. Does election flow from our choosing or does our choosing flow from election! Remember election is always seen in the bible as election to Christ, not apart from Christ!
Here is what Jesus says. Notice a ransom for the many! Isaiah says the exact same thing when he prophicies concern the coming Christ!
Matt 20
25But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. 26 It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, 27and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, 28even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
Going back to the origins in the first exodus (with Jesus’ being the second exodus), was the people putting blood on their doorposts a saving work?
In the same fashion, we choose whether or not to accept Jesus’ blood to cover us from judgement. In Exodus, the blood only covered the Jews. With Jesus, his blood was sufficient for all, but like the Jews in Egypt, only those who accepted the blood received its blessing.
I think again you miss that yes Jesus was a “ransom for many” yet, in that “many are called, but few are chosen”.
In the case of one who has crossed from death to life… then all you state is true (though i wonder at you stating “have holiness” for no one has holiness apart from the holiness imputed to us in Christ… but that is another discussion.
The truth is we have nothing to give in exchange for eternal life… except our death. As we give our death to Jesus, He give His Life to us. We have the exchanged life.
All that dwells in man is death, and the only true life is in Jesus Christ. In Him we have all things… in fact it is His obedience we walk in and not our own as we also do not even have that.
So unless we totally depend on Jesus for all things then we only deceive ourselves thinking we can life “holy”.
Also, be careful in adding “repentance” as part of the salvation equation as some have turned that into works…
One can confess sin and be saved. One can confess Jesus and be saved. Both acknowledged their sin and that they are dead without Jesus. So many place repentance as an act to receive and miss that salvation is all of God. Repentance is simply doing a U-turn from death to life.
iggy
So could a Jew of put the blood on the door and been killed because they did not beleive the blood did anything. Who choose the Jews and there slavery and the plagues and the salvation from it. Who caused it all? What was the original cause? Yes the people had to take responsiblity for it. That is why I said election to Christ or maybe icould say in Chirst. God choose Isreal. God choose me. Isreal listened to God and followed his commands(blood on the doorposts) I listended to God’s command (faith in Christ). The root cause though was not in what they did but in God and His purpose. So what is the root cause of our belief? Is it that I saw Christ and new that the only right and wise discision would be to follow Him? Or is it because God had mercy on me and through His mercy and grace I follow Him?
Just a side note there where egyptians who followed God and listened to Moses not just the jews.
So what is the root cause of our belief?
Chris L,
Excellent points…
Note also that Jesus states that he is likened unto the bronze serpent that cured the Hebrews from the poisonous snake bites… God did not want a sin offering for their sin of complaining against Him, but only that they gazed upon the snake on the pole. We are only to gaze on Jesus in the same way the Hebrew gazed on the snake on the pole and had his life spared… we are also spared by faith.
iggy
Iggy
Hebrews
13and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. 14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holinesswithout which no one will see the Lord.
Repentance is required in the life of a beleiver. Again this is not the cause of salvation but a fruit of a beleiver. So can I tell if I really believe. Well have I repented from my sins(stop sinning) and turned to Christ. Repentance as you said is a u turn.
Pastor on Sunday had a good point. If you are going to IL(starting place WI) but you are driving towards MN you will never make. If someone tells you are going the wrong way and I say “You know, you are right I believe you” but do not turn around you will never make it. But if you listen, beleive and turn around then you will make it.
You are right to say apart from Chist we can not be holy Christ says so. Apart from me you can do nothing! But does this negate the duty we have before God to be a people zealous for good deeds? Nope but the only way we are a people who can be zealous for good deeds is because of Christ and shows that His death was effective.
Kyle,
I think you miss the point of the Exodus…
If the Hebrew was in unbelief… then they would not have applied the blood… and would not have been spared… but they did believe and applied the blood and were spared.
If someone does not apply the Blood of Christ to themselves they then cannot be open to the Life and will not be spared, but if a person applies the blood to themselves and receives the Life, they will be spared.
You seem to be hung up on this for some reason…
iggy
No I total agree with that. So a jew that did not believe Moses would not put blood on his door. I am sure they would still put blood on the door even if they where not a a true jew, meaning one that is saved.
Why do I apply the blood? What is the cause that makes me want to apply the blood?
But why am I saved?
Because I believe?
Or because God has mercy?
What comes first mercy of belief?
What creates belief in a sinful man?
Kyle,
I probably won’t comment a lot more here, but I don’t think anyone is denying that God takes the first step in salvation. The question isn’t about that. The question is whether or not God truly created men and women as free agents who had genuine choice. In my opinion, to say He didn’t takes away from His glory instead of magnifying it.
Yes he did I agree but how much is left after the fall?
…we are dead in trespasses and sins.
…we are by nature children of wrath.
…we love darkness and hate the light.
…we have hearts that are hard like stone.
…we are unable to submit to God or please God.
…we are unable to accept the gospel.
…we are unable to come to Christ or embrace him as Lord.
So what cause us in our current state to choose Him?
One last comment
You guys say that it is because I beleive that is why I am saved. So you say that the reason I am saved is because I did something. Belief is the work the God would have us do. I say belief is not what saves me but it is evidence that I am saved. Not every person that believes will be saved but every saved person will believe! I hope this clears up my perspective a little bit for you and why I kept on asking questions. It is not that God takes the first step, it is that he takes all the steps.
Kyle,
I’m sorry, but I just don’t think Calvinism will ever make sense to me. It seems to have several fatal flaws that make it impossible for me to accept.
Kyle,
God initiates and we respond… it is pretty simple… in that God initiates salvation and we respond we then are “followers” and no longer taking the lead in our own life.
It is that we submit out of Love as a response…
The other question is “So what cause(s) us in our current state to choose Him?” It is that the Holy Spirit was poured out on “all flesh” on the day of Pentecost and we are now “wooed” by Him. (Job 36:33 NIV but the word means stired up in us) I see God’s calling and the same as the Spirit wooing. It is His Kindness that leads us to repentance and God shows His kindness through Jesus Christ.
It is that God calls us in that we choose to respond…
God calls us for He justified us, he justified us so He could glorify us… and all this was predestined in Christ before creation.
I am not a Calvinist… so my view of predestination is not exactly the same as that view. I see that the eternal plan was Jesus and that those who believed in Him would be placed in Him… I do not see that God just arbitrarily took some and then created others for damnation. In fact I see that in the passage in Romans 9 most Calvinists stop at verses 18… James White at least goes to verse 24, but the punch line is in 25 through 33!
It is that those who were considered to be vessels of wrath (the gentiles) are really revealed as vessels of mercy… while the vessels of mercy (the Jew) have become vessels of wrath… why? Because they pursued it ( law of righteousness) not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the “stumbling stone.”
This “Law of righteousness” was that one would seek God out of faith as they realized they could not fulfill the Law in and of themselves… yet they pursued the Law as if it would bring them righteousness… but it only brought death.
God has flipped things on their head and all this by His Grace. Since the Jews failed in their vocation to bring the righteousness of God to the nations, God came Himself to bring righteousness to all mankind.
Yet, again this is all to fulfill the promise of Abraham as God does not lie.
I see salvation is offered to all mankind so none have an excuse and that God is just.
Now I do not want to go into the difference between what I see the bible states about predestination and Calvinism… that would take too much time… but feel free to email me if you so desire to continue this discussion.
iggy@wwdb.org
Just one last comment on this. The wooing in greek is used other places in the bible. In Acts it is refering to Paul, pretty sure, as being wooed to jail. Actual it is dragged! Also there is one refernce that I have hear of outside the bible. It has to do with drawing water out of a well. So you can call and woo the water all you want but it still has to be pulled and dragged? Don’t know if you have heard this stuff before or not? I won’t go one to much more because we both know what and why we believe.
I have come in late on this post and have just breezed over a few. Is the discussion about whether faith and true belief in Jesus Christ is an act of us or an act of God in us? Do these scriptures add more clarity to the discussion?
And nothing terrified by your adversaries: which to them is an evident token of perdition, but to you OF SALVATION, and that OF GOD. For unto you it IS GIVEN, in the behalf of Christ, not only TO BELIEVE ON HIM, but also to suffer for his sake (Philippians 1:28,29 KJV).
And when they were come, and gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how HE had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles (Acts 14:27 KJV).
F Whittenburg