yeah, but are they REALLY saved?
Once again, Old Truth doesn’t necessarily mean good truth. In this article, the author’s cynicism and god-complex is in plain sight. Oak Leaf Church celebrated 39 people coming to Christ in their service. The exact line reads
“39 people decided to follow Jesus! 39 people who are now Christians! It’s cool when you run out of counselors.
to this, Jim replies
“Aside from the fact that salvation is not due to human will and decision (Romans 9:16, John 1:12-13, etc), Michael’s remarks beg the question – how does he know they are now Christians? We all know how angry people get if someone questions the salvation of another professed believer. Questions start flying like “how do you know that person is not saved?”. Just turn that question around 180 degrees and ask pastors like Michael “how do you know 39 ARE saved?”
First off, ladies and gentlemen, this is what we in the theological community like to call hyper-Calvinism. When the scriptures say if you confess with your mouth and believe with your heart, you will be saved — it really means that if the holy spirit takes over your bodily functions, and God himself mutters the words for you, then you will be saved. There is no responsibility on the human to make the decision to make Jesus Lord of their life.
Second, why could Jim not just be happy for this church, instead of messing with semantics and playing God. Maybe we should put all 39 of those people in a room with Jim, so he can judge their hearts and be the final word on IF they are saved. It’s rediculous to make those statements when someone is sharing that several people came to faith. I am all for looking for fruits in new converts, but to make these comments about a church service that you were not at is juvenile at best. In fact, Jim closes the article with this
“When I see posts like this, I can’t help but wonder if these pastors are simply engaging in self-promotion, ie: “look at what we’ve done HERE at OUR church?”. Praise God for any true converts that may be in the bunch of 39″
I usually hear statements like this (about self-promotion and boasting) about other pastors from Christians who are not leading people to Christ themselves. I guess If you can’t do the work, just criticize those that are attempting to.
61 Comments(+Add)
I agree. Although that is not what historically has been called hyper-calvinism. Although anytime you want to put down a calvinist just call him hyper and it always works. None of of know who is elect and who is not! It is our duty to preach the gospel to all peoples. The only way that the bible gives for diserning if they are of God is twofold. One is the confession, which you meantioned, by confession I mean an orthdox confession. If you confess that the JW Jesus saves you I am sorry an angel can save no one. The second is orthapraxy. Do you bear fruit in keeping with repentance. Or as James says you say you have faith well I show my faith with my works. So are all those 39 people saved, the evidence so far is YES! The angles rejoice! Will all of them die a a christian, the evidence is not yet in on that part, but more than likely not. Look to the parable of the sower. You sow the seed get a good reponse but only those with roots will produce fruit.
Side note, a lot of churches try to inflate “conversion” or ‘desicsion” for Christ, because it does look good! Most of the time though there are not true or new converts. One time i saw a drunk man wheel into a charimatic service. he got “slain in the spirit” and confessed about Christ. What do you still think he is doing. Riding, drinking and begging. Again I do not know who God has elected unto salvation so maybe those where some seeds sown and some else will water and true repentance will come crashing down on his heart like an a bomb, but as of right now that guy is still lost even though he confessed that one night!
“I usually hear statements like this (about self-promotion and boasting) about other pastors from Christians who are not leading people to Christ themselves. I guess If you can’t do the work, just criticize those that are attempting to.”
There ya go it’s all about numbers!
Why do the contributors here do exactly what they criticize?
Acts 2:
“42And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. 43And awe came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. 44And all who believed were together and had all things in common. 45And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. 46And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, 47praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.”
No mention of a message or altar-call here. We are commanded to make disciples, not save people. We call this hyper-arminianism. That’s where God is on vacation and we do it all.
first off, there was NO mention of numbers in this piece. I did not say “I usually hear statements like this bout other pastors from Christians who are not leading MASS AMOUNTS OF people to Christ themselves.
way to look into things Chris P.
Also, there was no mention of an alter call in my article either. I had no idea how these people came to faith. I am assuming that they were in the midst of a community that devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. Can you prove otherwise? Can Jim?
I would hardly call someone confessing with their mouth that Jesus is Lord “doing it all”. Ridiculous. But thanks for the drive-by.
for the record… the only numbers mentioned in this piece are the 39 that were brought to faith. Numbers were not the issue here… a man judging the salvation of 39 people he had not met is the issue
If no one can know who is saved how can he know who isn’t? If it is God that does the complete saving then only God knows who is saved. This is just Calvinistic hubris again parsing words that do not fit with their finite theology.
I got saved in 1975 by making a decision for Jesus Christ by the power of Jesus Christ and the gift of a free will choice. These guys exude doctrinal snobbery as is showcased by the opening sentence:
“Well,I thought we were making some progress with Michael from Oak Leaf, but sometimes progress is slow.”
Oh thank you for throwing us some crubs from the delicacies of your theological table. I am glad we live in today’s world or they might have had me burned at the stake as did the father of their movement. As you can see, progress is real slow with me!
even Michael syas he does not know if they are all saved and he hopes that God will sort it out. So maybe the way we do numbers should be different. maybe instead of the 3 B’s we should be worried about the depth of the 650 already there. maybe that could praise about the works that flow to the community around them, about how they stand up for the word of God. Now I don’t know this church. Just all american churches are pretty much about how pople where here and how many raised there hand. now what I am sayin? It seems we never care about disciplship!
Hey my family was burned at the stake for calvinist doctrine, look how slow the progress is truly. Calvinist are still treated the same way as a disease! Just look at the way you talk about it, all most with a hatred in your heart for it.
Kyle,
if you saw what the ODMs do in the name of their precious theological framework, you would think Calvinism WAS a disease.
I do dislike Calvinism but only second to the attitude of some Calvinists.
I consider the doctrine error and their behavior idolatry.
Calvinism is a disease.
The Holy Spirit is the cure.
Just kidding
(kind of)…
“We are commanded to make disciples, not save people.”
How can you make a disciple without making a convert first? No one’s claiming we “get them saved”, just that we can influence people for Christ. Without converts, there can be no discipleship. What the guys at Oak Leaf did was great!
And as far as “fruit” goes, a public confession of Jesus Christ as your Savior is a pretty good first fruit to produce if you asked me.
I agree that the profession is a fruit! It is one way to have assurance of salvation, to make sure of your calling and election. How does on infulence a none belevier for Christ? This is a rather odd statement. I do not know how to do this could you explain how to infulence people for Christ?
What is ODM? Remember I am kinda new to you guys, although I have been reading slice for along time and enjoy VCY, especially the channel when I lived in MIL!
I am a calvinsit! And you are right the only cure is the Holy Spirit, because natural(flesh) man can not understand the things of God. I just think you guys need a better diagnosis of the diseases because you have mislabled it, it is actually called arminflunzea!
LOL
There certaintly are false converts in many churches do to pragmatic and false presentations of the gospel. However one of the reasons we do not have to worry about too many false converts in many reformed churches is they don’t have many and they grow by doctrinal conversion rather than salvations.
That is false! Most seekrer chruches do not have new converts just poeple moving from chruch to church to find the cool one. Look at history. Who where some of the best evangelist(meaning making new converts). Most worry calvinst I am not saying that all where and that calvinist where the best. And sometimes doctrinal conversion is salvation!
Two lines below the comment of 39 people deciding to follow Christ was the additional comments that “The band sounded great today. They did some of my favorite worship tunes.”
“Band!”
“Worship tunes?”
Clearly the Gospel is not taught at this place so I think “Old Truth” is safe in their doubts…
As we all know “Cloneliness is next to Godliness!”
Neil
Please let me know how you can tell who is saved so soon? How can Old Truth tell so soon that people are not saved? Is it a gift? And the doctrinal conversion is salvation is the exact attitude I referenced since many Calvinists speak more about their doctrinal epiphany rather than their salvation.
Rick,
If you have a “band” or use “worship tunes”, then converts are less likely to be genuine. It’s as simple as that.
Neil just told you
Whether or not that has any basis in scripture isn’t important though. Neil said it, so it must be so.
So if a man converts from the World Wide Church of God(a cult) to a christian church is this not a doctrional conversion. I have had to give a lot of testimonies(in front of churches) about my life. After first I told about myself my history and what happened. But as I grew I say myself as self-centered. Trying to impress on the crowd that salvation was about me in a way. Then I started giving doctrnial testomines. Talk not about myself but about God and what He did, not what I did. Salvation will be experenced differently by all peoples but doctrine(the Bible) will always be the same and slways give glory to God.
Kyle,
let’s be honest, most reformed churched stink at evangelism. No matter how much they say they do it, it just isn’t in their theological DNA. And to get down to the nitty gritty, reformed theology doesn’t really have an ugrent need for evangelism if all the elect are gonna make it in regardless.
I am not saying that SS churches are much better, but it is certainly a more urgent matter.
That is not the doctrinal conversion about which we were speaking. I have heard believers speak about their coming to the “doctrines of grace (man made)” as if that was their salvation. And many try and convert other believers to that doctrine disproprtionately to witnessing to lost sinners with the gospel.
I was saved under an Arminian, semi-plegian, seeker gospel preached by Billy Graham in 1975. I made a decision for Christ and Old Truth would have judged me as unsaved back then.
Maybe they still do.
Thanks Nate!
Neil
Will Carey, the “founder of modern missions” calvinist. There are more too just like the otherside has. It is in the “thelolgical DNA” First God commanded it! Second all other doctrines of Grace support the spreading of the gospel! T-since ever man is so currpot it is the mission of the church to send pastors otherwise they perish in that state. U-it is not based on what we do, but upon God. So how does God save poeple. Do we just sit back and “let go and let God”, this is what is called Hyper-calvinism, or has God given us work. What is the power of God unto salvation? I can countinue through the five points but I hope my point was made. The reason people don’t preach the gopsel to others is SIN. They are lazy and scared to talk to people about the Jesus of the bible. Me incldued, it is hard to step out of the comfort zone and biblical evanglize someone! We can not say that either calvinism or arminism is a better theology for evanglizing, they are the same in regards to this pretty much. Now what this is what Nathan said and this is NOT CALVINSIM but it is HYPER-CALVINSIM. historically at least.
reformed theology doesn’t really have an ugrent need for evangelism if all the elect are gonna make it in regardless
risking going into a huge theological debate, try to answer this Kyle:
If we all decided that they were not going to evangelize anyone, would the elect still go to heaven?
No, the bible is pretty clear about that. No hypo are stupid questions. Remember God uses secondary causes(people0 to bring about His will. Why do people become missionaries for the money, seeing the world, the great carrer opertunites. No it is not the Navy! It is God you causes them to go. Would you agree with that?
I don’t think it is very hypothetical… people choose everyday to not evangelize. I would say that God causes people to go, but we still have to CHOOSE to go. But in reformed theology, if you follow it to its logical end, all of the elect will be saved regardless of you an me evangelizing them.
I guess my question wouldn’t be either. It would be one of “why are we trying to determine who is saved or not?” Go, preach the gospel, baptize. Evangelize. Not tally.
I get fairly unimpressed with numbers counting when it comes to who “gets” saved. I’m not sure of the purpose or need to quantify these numbers except for human purposes of proof of success, evidence of success for financial support, etc. The need for numbers is a human thing, not a requirement or need of God’s. He isn’t fooled by tally.
In David Fitch’s book The Great Giveaway (yes, yes, again I mention him and his book), he talks a bit about this, and said that if we absolutely must have a tally or number figure of some sort to show supporters of a ministry, perhaps counting the number of baptisms would be a better option instead of counting decision cards or hands raised. He actually talks quite a bit about this numbers “game” whether it be in decisions, converts, or church membership.
Numbers mean some kind of quantification is taking place, and if, indeed, the process of dying to self and coming to life in Christ is a process, then when do we make the tally mark? The classic example is the thief on the cross — he said it with his mouth. That’s it. But since most of us don’t die soon after confessing it with our mouth and have a chance to continue on the journey…well, then, here we find ourselves in the “can you lose your salvation” debate, I suppose. Our lives should be markedly changed. Go, and sin no more, Christ said to the woman. The thief had no opportunity to do that. It seems to me to be a kind of process, then. Confess with our mouths, but then, repent and turn from our sinful ways. So, where do we mark the tally as to when a person is “saved”? I find it useful to never really worry about the tally since I don’t know the where, why and what-for of doing it. The focus should be on something else, rather than a count.
But, of course, in the western world, in American Evangelicalism, we like to keep count. We’ve kind of turned our churches into a business of sorts.
Can this be more plain over the condition of Jim’s heart toward sinners compared to Jesus’? I think Jim’s own words speaks for themselves.
And that is truly sad!
I for one rejoice as at least one of those 39 where saved that day… and God was glorified in that church. = )
blessings,
iggy
Not everyone stops! That is what Elijah thought, he was the only one but God kept his remenat. If you follow all doctrines of grace the only out come is a passion for the glory of God. What most glorifies God? This is where John Piper comes in. He has covered this stuff and it is great!! Don’t know how you guys fell about him though. Again why do we CHOOSE to go on missions. Because God took out our heart of stone and put in a heart of flesh. A new birth took place and now we love God instead of hating Him. So why do people choose missions, because people do choose? Is it because they are super spiritual and superior to the rest of us or is it a grace of God like the rest of the spiritual gifts. So how are people saved, what is the power of God for salvation?
I want to mention that I know for sure that Jim is not reflective of most “Calvinists” and that hyper-Calvinism is not biblical while at least “Calvinism” has mostly biblical based view.
Through i have learned a lot from Calvin, I do not see that his views are the final authority and that his teachings the best as far as understanding predestination and election.
iggy
Oh btw biblically not one of us is “saved” yet… for it is not until Christ comes again that salvation is complete.
Salvation starts here but is not completed now. I believe we have assurance of salvation now, but it is not known who is until Christ returns who truly is. With that the Calvinist should be the most humble of all for though he may see himself elect, he need to constantly make his election sure.
iggy
I’m not really sure why some Christians get in such an uproar about who’s saved and who’s not.
It’s like Jehovah’s Witnesses who believe only a certain number of believers will get into heaven or Muslims who think they have to work to get into heaven.
People are saved by believing in Christ as their Lord and confessing their sins and asking forgiveness.
People are rewarded by a lasting relationship with God and doing His will.
Merry
I am sorry that is not how people are saved at all. At least not according to the bible. But I am sure we mean the same thing.
People should be worried and always thinking about who is saved! What a statement huh? Why should we worry? Well the bible tells us to work out are salvation. We should be concerned about are brothers and sisters always pointing them to Christ. We should worry about their salvation and ours as well. Paul when he wrote to the Romans, who were christians, he said he could not wait to preach the GOSPEL to them. Why should he tell them something they already now? We should always care about wether people are saved because this is how we show love for our neighbor.
Kyle,
Admitting that you are a sinner, believing that Christ is your saviour, and confessing your sins is not how people are saved? If that’s not how one is saved then what on earth is???
“For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.” John 3:16
I have no clue what you meant by your first statement.
Yes, the Bible says to work out our salvation. Yes, we need to encourage each other in our walk with God.
There’s a huge difference between caring about whether someone is saved and telling someone they’re not really. saved. I’ve known of people who renounced both Christianity and God because they were told the latter. So sad.
I think it is entirely possibly — and likely — that we will very much care about a person being saved while simultaneously not seeing a need to debate whether or not they are. It would seem to be a conflicting statement, but it is not.
Demarcating salvation turns us into religious slide rules rather than servants of Christ wanting all to know the Gospel and not willing that any go without hearing it.
I think, Kyle, you may have slightly misunderstood what Merry had originally said. I didn’t take her earlier statements to suggest that she wasn’t concerned if people found salvation in Christ or not, but rather, the unnecessary debate over who is and isn’t saved was more detrimental than useful.
I personally know over 30 people who ‘confessed their sins, asked Jesus for forgiveness, and believed all the right things about His deity, death, resurrection etc.’ and yet were not saved. They will tell you this with their own words. They then eventually REALLY got saved and REALLY placed their faith in Christ.
There are literally millions of people in the world who ‘believe’ in their head, but don’t believe in their heart.
Therefore, understanding how salvation works is so very important. Which leads me to a comment I made a while back when I asked, “doesn’t anyone care to learn more about how salvation works and how to know if someone is really saved?”
and the response was…. “no”
So irresponsible!
“Band!â€
“Worship tunes?â€
Clearly the Gospel is not taught at this place so I think “Old Truth†is safe in their doubts…
Umm… wtf?
Can some explain to me how “bands” and “worship tunes” equate to “the Gospel is not taught?”
Inq – you do not know who is and isn’t saved anymore than I do, only God knows. By the way your they “really placed their faith in Christ” is so very Arminian of you.
As to the thirty people that you know who were not saved and then got saved I suspect your are referring to them believing the doctrines of grace. If not, they along with millions have made false professions, just like they do IN EVERY CHURCH.
As Julie has rightly observed, if any of you are in possession of the Lamb’s Book of Life please produce it so we can check out the list.
Thank you, Julie. That’s exactly what I meant. Of course I care about and want people to become saved. I was responding to the original article about the person who was questioning whether those 39 really were saved. I don’t think those 39 people, brand new to their faith, reallly need to have Christians questioning their true salvation. If that happended me as a young Christian, I would be rather nervous.
^^ I meant happened, not happended. Lol!
Inquisiter said:
“I personally know over 30 people who ‘confessed their sins, asked Jesus for forgiveness, and believed all the right things about His deity, death, resurrection etc.’ and yet were not saved. They will tell you this with their own words. They then eventually REALLY got saved and REALLY placed their faith in Christ.
There are literally millions of people in the world who ‘believe’ in their head, but don’t believe in their heart.”
You now know of 31. I wrote a book (When Faith Came) that I offer as a free download on my website http://www.christiannewbirth.com about my years in religion believing I was saved, until I actually was. I wrote a whole chapter called “How I messed uo the sinner’s prayer” and a chapter called “My testimony” that explains how I was finally delivered from the deception. For years I only knew Jesus as a “forgiver”, but not a “Saviour”.
F Whittenburg
I mean that the bible does not say it is what we do that saves us(repent, believe, ect..) it says that it was Jesus death and resurrection that saves us. His blood shed for me a sinner. If I say I am a christian because I choose to be you are putting your faith in yourself. It is justification by faith alone in Christ alone by the grace of God alone that saves. It is always essitinal and biblical to warn the people of the consequences of the action and professions with gentleness and love regardless if the have a been a christian for 5 minutes, 5 days, 5 years, 50 years. We should always be remind it is not us that save but Christ alone and put are trust in Him. Repentance and faith and not just a one time thing, a ticket to heaven, it is a life long repentance, a life long faith in Christ.
I believe that was a bit of satire parodying the anti-PD crowd…
We religious humans make salvation very complex.
Christ made it simple.
Luke 23:42-43
As I earlier mentioned, continued life in Christ calls us to repent from sin and more, but salvation itself is simple. Was that thief saved? Was he? What did Christ require of him to do to be saved? Do you doubt his salvation?
He did not require a free downloadable book detailing the “false” starts. He did not require an altar call. He did not require an agreement with specific creeds. He did not require an adherence to any human understanding of theology. What did Christ require? At it’s simplest, then, what does it take to be saved?
Surely there is no argument from anyone here stating that a head belief will get you anywhere with Christ. Romans 10:9 takes care of that, and does it, again, quite simply.
I’m not sure if you think anything I, Merry, et. al. have suggested that. Above all, your heart is Christ’s concern. I read your comment, Inquisitor, and see how people “really” got saved, wondering why you chose to write that comment as some sort of response to the other comments here, wondering what I or another has said that makes you think anyone thinks an intellectual belief is advocated. Do you see that as what I, or another, has been suggesting? I am curious.
The more a person chooses to debate the moment of salvation, tries to list who is or is not saved (per the original post and article linked at the top), or starts to note examples of people who they know finally “really” got saved…head stuff. From the head. Not heart stuff.
What does it take to be saved?
Confess with your mouth, and believe it in your heart.
Simple.
We make it messy and complicated for our own ends.
Over at Old Truth the author takes exception with reporting a person made a decision for Christ and that there should be some arbitrary length of time before they can be publicly declared a Christian. I understand part of his concern about testing, but the Book of Acts is full of one moment conversions and the Scriptures immediately giving a talley.
We can only report what took place but it is God’s work to authenticate the salvation experience. Let us not either restrict or take the place of the Holy Spirit.
Good point about Acts.
True dat.
Rick,
That is the difference between Jim’s standard and God’s…
It seems that God’s is just not good enough… though it is perfect in all ways.
iggy
Hello Julie,
Thank you for your post. You are the one I need to ask the question, “In your opinion, believing in what flawed doctrine results in a “false” start?”
You quote Romans 10:8 “confess with your mouth, and believe in your heart”. Very simple.
How do you reconcile these two verses?
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven (Matthew 7:21 KJV)
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved (Acts 2:21 KJV).
Is it possible to confess Jesus and not truly believe in Him? In the book of Acts, there were people that were trying to do ministry in Jesus name yet they didn’t know Jesus personally. They had just heard the stories about Jesus and acted upon that knowledge with their faith in his power to cast out the demons. They meant well…….
Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so. And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? (Acts 19:13-15 KJV)
What results in or identifies the true act of believing? Signs (Mark 16:16-18), Fruit (Galatians 5:22,23), Works ( James 2:14-20), Faith (Ephesians 2:8)
Does confession = believing?
I am just asking some simple questions
F Whittenburg
F.W., I have to first state that your comment is mildly confusing to me — I am getting that you think I need to prove or clarify something I’ve said or that you think I’ve said? I’m not clear on what you want. Why am I the “one” you need to ask this question of?
Regardless, you give me two verses, and then this statement:
I look at Romans 10:8, the verse I quoted, as not conflicting with the two verses you listed. I see it as stating two things: confess with your mouth, and believe with your heart. The and indicates they are two things we do, not that one comes automatically with the other. So, in response to your question on whether confession equals believing: no. There are two things we do.
All the other verses you supply — fine, fine — not sure what you’re trying to say. If you are looking for a way to “flesh out” what believing means, that is a further discussion on works, faith, etc. My mere point in my comments above was how salvation, taken to it’s most basic “instruction”, is simple. It requires sacrifice and is not easy, but that doesn’t mean that it isn’t simple. The way may be narrow and few may find it, but it is not a confusing or crooked way. The path is made straight. Christ offered us a simple salvation, unlike anything man has tried to do to it since.
What did I say, or imply, that made you feel like you had to ask this question of me? I never indicated confession equaled believing. I merely said salvation was made simple by Christ and complex by humans.
Great. Because I think I’ve provided the simple answers. Simple seems to be the word of choice here: salvation is simple.
Now, we sinners don’t always like simple, so we muddy it up or refuse to bow and take such a simple gift. Again, another topic, another time. On this current, most basic discussion on being saved: confess and believe.
F.W., as I re-read your comment and the two verses, I wonder if you’re saying “look, one says just calling on the name isn’t good enough, while the other says it is.”
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven (Matthew 7:21 KJV)
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved (Acts 2:21 KJV).
What is it you want me to do? Say the Bible doesn’t have apparent paradoxes or something? Play some kind of theological game of words and meaning? I have said before that I’m not the most learned writer here, so if you’re looking for information for personal growth, I hope some of the other writers can shed some light. If you’re looking to trip me up or get me to say something so you can jump all over me and say “aha! see?!” I think that’s a stupid waste of time.
Why do they seem to contradict each other, those two verses? I don’t know. My gut take would be that people say a lot of things and don’t mean it, and that the first verse is addressing those who outwardly identify with Christ but do nothing else with it in their heart. They confess but don’t believe, essentially.
The second verse would seem to negate that. It’s from a passage in Acts where the prophet Joel is being quoted by Peter (Acts 2:15-24), after the speaking in tongues. The passage is describing something where, when you see the verse in question tagged onto the end, it makes it less like random people are calling out his name, but instead that it is believers doing this. My take on it is that the people likely to call out his name in this time are not going to be the confess-but-not-believe people, but those truly believing that Christ will help them.
But my question then, is this: who calls upon the name of the Lord, in such a time as described? The “casual believer” or the one who truly believes in his or her heart?
I don’t like semantic games, games of “Well, Julie, how do explain these to verses, then, hmm?” I know people do that on this site, but I don’t find it anything but cloying. It’s chopping up the scripture to use it for argument-winning only. I’ve already expressed my distaste for this elsewhere.
So, if you had a serious question, I did my best to answer you, F.W. If you were looking to win some little verse battle and prove your rightness, I would say you’re wasting your time with me. It’s a pointless exercise and no one, actually, wins.
Rick,
There are those that you can know if they are saved. If you claim that no one can ever know, then you contradict Christ saying that “you SHALL know them by their fruit” He doesn’t say that you can never know, He says you “shall” know.
Also, when He tells the parable of the wheat and tares He advises us not to rip them out. However, notice that before we can rip them out He substantiates that they are identifiable.
FW One of the keys to Matthew 7:21 comes in understanding the concept of the “Kingdom of God” (which Matthew, along, uses the honorific “Kingdom of Heaven” to avoid the use of God’s name in vain, per first century custom).
The Kingdom of God/Heaven is Jesus’ primary teaching topic in the gospels, and it has both a temporal and an eternal component. The Kingdom of God exists where things are as God would have them.
There were a huge number of people that expected him to be a physical, conquering Messiah, which he was not (see John 6 and elsewhere), and those who would call him “Lord”, expecting an earthly ruler, would not understand who he was and what he wanted. They would know he was “Lord”, but not believe what it actually meant.
This would be added to Julie’s comments on “knowing” and “believing” – with one being basic knowledge and the other being a belief of the heart. One could know who Jesus is and believe he is
I got cut off there…
This would be added to Julie’s comments on “knowing†and “believing†– with one being basic knowledge and the other being a belief of the heart.
The belief that Jesus was going to be the conquering messiah would lead people to call him “Lord” – expecting a physical ruler who would give them physical deliverance and power over their current captors. So – they would know him as “Lord”, but not believe who he REALLY was, and the type of salvation he was bringing.
Hello Julie,
Thank you for your answers and posts. The reason I asked those questions because you seemed to answered definitevly in a previous post about how simple salvation is. I was not trying to trip you up, but I am just curious about how people come to their conclusions. I am glad you have found security in your salvation, but some people do wrestle with these verses and do not nessesarily come by their faith in their salvation as “simple” as you have.
And account that the long-suffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction (2 Peter 3:15,16 KJV).
Many today are teaching that just because some denomination is doing ministry in Jesus name that we need to embrace them as Christian brothers and sisters.
They may say, “I believe in the Jesus of the Bible”. If that amount of belief is all that is relied upon, then according to the scripture I quoted in the previous post (i.e. the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, Paul, I know… Acts 19:15 KJV) their faith is now on the same level as a demon. Even though it may be simple for you , many do wrestle with the question of true salvation.
F Whittenburg
“The path is made straight.”
I believe that also, but I was told the path was a “paradigm shift”. When my church “shifted” and said, “we need to take the bend in the road”, dumb me, kept going straight
All of a sudden, I found myself as a voice in the wilderness saying, “prepare ye the way of the Lord, make His paths STRAIGHT”.
F Whittenburg
Compare the original with the condescending commentary.
Original:
and the condescending commentary:
First observation – no one said anything about 39 people being saved. He said they chose to follow Jesus. Maybe 39 were saved that evening, maybe 6 of them decided to follow Jesus and they’ll be saved later… who knows?
Second observation – How do we know they are Christians? – they chose to follow Jesus.
I don’t understand the obsession ODM’s have with being negative…
Neil
(and Chris was right, the bit about the “band” was sarcasm… my local church has a band)
Ah, but remember, I said we humans make our salvation complex. Don’t think I’ve arrived at some secure place in which I do not have doubts where I think “how could Jesus possibly have saved me?” or where I don’t find creeping thoughts of all the reasons I shouldn’t, couldn’t, wouldn’t be saved.
I do find a great deal of comfort in the directness of the verses I discussed, though I confess I have doubts and struggles on always accepting them at their simplest take. We humans like to make things complex because we think it can’t possibly be that simple. I’m no different. I in no way want to portray someone who’s just gadding about, all secure and concrete and super happy without those struggles you’ve alluded to in your comment. When the Bible says we are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12-13), I do. I don’t just take it lightly or flippantly, though it be simple.
Hello Chris,
Thank you also for your response.
F Whittenburg
Hello Julie,
“Don’t think I’ve arrived at some secure place in which I do not have doubts where I think “how could Jesus possibly have saved me?†or where I don’t find creeping thoughts of all the reasons I shouldn’t, couldn’t, wouldn’t be saved.”
After examining myself to see if I was truly “in the faith”. I not only realized I wasn’t saved, but I actually got to the point that I thought I may have done something and could not be saved. That is a pretty low and miserable place to be in, and I hope and pray that no one else has to sink to that level, but it is the place that Jesus ressurected me from. I never found my salvation in a church, through a Christian missional visit or witness, but alone with God. That is why I shared my testimony and wrote the book When Faith Came. To show people that are wrestling with the assurance of salvation, and show them how I was saved out of that and they are not alone.
F Whittenburg
F Whittenburg,
It sounds like our story could be quite similar. Yet, I am hesitant to state I was not saved before I was confronted with the Grace of God.
At times I thought maybe I was not saved, but then after reflection I would have to base my salvation on my own understanding or in that I did something to receive. So, I concluded that on the day I sat in the church and responded to the message out of my total ignorance, I was “saved” then and God has been growing me in understanding of what happened then.
My sinners prayer at 15 years old was this… “If you keep me sober tonight, I’ll see what I can do for you.”
He kept His part of the deal, and then taught me that I could not do anything for Him nor was called to do so… Now it is Him doing what He wills in and through me.
I see each person is an individual, and though there are commonalities God deals with us as an individual as He grows us into the image of Jesus.
iggy
Hyper Calvinism has nothing to do with what you described it as. It would be better termed “double predestinationism”. Calvinism: God chooses who is saved. Hyper-Calvinism: God chooses who is saved AND who is lost.
I, honestly do not have my brain quite yet wrapped around it. I mean, if you say that God exclusively decides who is saved, and there is no way for the rest to get themselves in the right groove, isn’t that the same thing as saying God chooses who lives AND who dies?
There’s an explanation for it that I’ve heard, but it so far doesn’t quite explain it so that I understand it…
This poses a problem for me because I subscribe to the notion of “the elect” only (and I emphasise ONLY) because the scriptures do in fact seem to say this, and it is one of the very first doctrines that I learned from my own reading of the Bible. No man comes to God but by the Son. No man comes to the Son except the father draw… All whom the father has given to me WILL come to me and NOT A SINGLE ONE will be lost…” Uh oh. This is an “invitation only” party.
It’s not like there’s some context that it can be taken out of to help it make sense. It just kinda sucker punches you.
If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me.
All = all.