You’re making me look stupid, iggy.

have you ever heard Brian McLaren’s “bridge to no where” teaching… he shows a bridge in south America that used to cross a river, but after the floods the river was redirected so it goes around the bridge… the bridge is useless and is nothing more than an oddity that tourists come to see… He states that is often how Christianity is perceived… I am thinking more that the bridge is Ken’s bridge to no where… it crosses nothing and offers no one anything as far as getting anywhere…

Just a thought out loud…

iggy

“I don’t care who ya are — that’s funny right there.”

if all the other anti-emergents jumped off a bridge, would you do it, too?

No, we would deconstruct it first… so there would be no bridge… (just a little humor)

iggy

Ken, maybe I’m misinterpreting, but it seems that you are excusing the error of one group because you perceive it in others. To paraphrase my mom, if all the other anti-emergents jumped off a bridge, would you do it, too?

Kyle, is it your contention, then, that when Spurgeon spoke of opinions that he wasn’t actually speaking of opinions? I can’t buy that — I respect his intellect too much to assume that he would be that sloppy in his word choice.

Did Christ die for the entire world and offer it to all sinners thereby exhibiting the universality of God’s redemptive love, or was His redemptive love limited?

They called that hyper-Calvinism. Putting a million dollars on the moon and saying “come get it if you can” is not a free offer of the million dollars.

Does that make more sense?

“they deny that the methods empolyed are unbiblical.”

That’s what they claim … then they don’t prove it. Then they give you some crap about the “regulative principle”.

“Also they do believe that it is every person duty to repent and believe.”

I guess you could say that. They believe in responsibility without ability. But in many cases, you will hear some variation of the following sentences from the ODMs:

“But if God does the calling, then there’s no need to do [insert creative method of evangelism] in order to win them.”

“You can’t persuade anyone to become a Christian, only God can.”

“If you use [insert creative evangelism method] to try to win them, then you get the glory, not God.”

All 3 of thos limitations on evangelism come directly from Calvinistic theology. Limiting your effort because God does the calling anyway. If he wants them saved, then he doesn’t need you to do anything special for that to happen. You can scream through a bullhorn, and if God wants them saved, he’ll use that to save them. But heaven forbid you use rock music or “seeker” methods to win them.

Sure, they’re not saying “don’t witness to them”, but they are saying “don’t witness to them that way” when there’s nothing wrong with “that way”. They just see it as unnecessary and “man centered”. The only way “that way” could be considered wrong is if it was considered in light of Calvinistic theology.

hmm, hope that made sense. That’s been my experience anyway.

I am not sure which “crazy article” you are referring to but if you could reference it… it might help me figure out what you are considering crazy…LOL!

It was the eternal plan that those that come to faith in Jesus would be “in Christ”. The eternal Plan is eternal and it does not mean people existed somehow in Jesus before creation… Calvin never stated that.

At one time I was refuting what Calvinists were telling me they believed… then I went and read Calvin’s Institutes (which is quite a read) and found they had no idea what they were talking about! LOL! and they were attacking me for what I believed and claimed I denied predestination.

I do not deny predestination, I see it in a different context than the Calvinist as I see it more connected to the Abrahamic promise than to “some created as vessels of mercy and some as vessels of wrath”… in fact I often cringe when I here many Calvinists read that passage as they miss the very vessels created for wrath (the gentiles) became the vessels of mercy and the vessels of mercy (the Jew) became the vessels of wrath… this is what the last few verses state… most argue around “Nations and individuals” but it is both… not either/or.

My point is that some are “angry Calvinists” who have some weird view of God that makes him unjust and wrathful and takes away the Loving Kindness and compassion He states of Himself… of some are created as vessels of wrath, then there is no mercy or grace as they then cannot experience it and they would be the only ones who could as the ones created to be the “elect” have not real choice in that they will be saved.

be blessed,
iggy

The view of election is some what correct. Although it is what is normal called double predestination. God work both to give mercy and to give judgment. God is active in mercy and passive in judgment. I am He is active in conforming those whom He has given mercy to through His Spirit. While He is passive, not working sin in the person, by not giving them mercy instead judgment. God created all men. All men are sinners in Adam and by their own actions. God choose to give mercy to some and to pass over others and give them justice. No one receives injustice at the had of God. So receive mercy and grace others justice and judgment. I think by the last phrase you are referring to the way God elects people. God does not say during eternity past that these people that will be are saved because they are elect and I love them more than those. Instead He only elects people in light of Christ and His life, death and resurrection. I read on over your crazy articles about time. So it is not that we pre-existed but that God is not bound by space and time so He before the foundations of the world chose a people to give mercy to. If you have listened to J. White there is not much I can do to change your mind because he is way smarter than I.

And for the rest of you – I’m a Calvinist, consider yourselves denigrated.

Hey … I’m kidding … I love you guys … well most of you anyway …

Rick you know that if it was not for you i would be a stark raving madman agaisnt all Calvinists… don’t you?

It could be that you are a bit of a hybrid in other ways… but still one of the nicest brothers I know. I ahve been very blessed by you and hope one day to actually sneak a cigar with you. LOL!

Blessed,
iggy