Bill MacKinnon writes about the wannabe Pope, Johnny Mac ex communicating Doug Pagitt.
There is no Truth War in Jesus’ command. Let me be blunt. MacArthur is as much promoting another gospel as he claims the emergent crowd are. His Darbyist dispensational theology has as many holes as the theology of Brian McLaren. I wouldn’t deign to say that MacArthur isn’t my brother. But I would say this. The man is an… I can’t even say that. Though I wish I could.
Might I suggest, however, that it is time for the more irenic of the Calvinist wing of Christianity to disassociate themselves from the man who wants to be Pope of the Truly Reformed.
But the real gold here is Brant Hansen’s comment:
I’m not one of these namby-pamby, post-mod types who think Truth will be just fine, thank you. I know it’s much, much weaker than that.
If it weren’t for men like John McArthur, the Truth would disappear into thin air. It is not enduring on its own. It will not last without bold leaders to defend it, to much applause, by preaching it to the same people week after week and selling books about it to them.
The Truth is very, very fragile, indeed. If anything, Paul himself was weak-kneed. He claimed he couldn’t even judge himself, and it was up to the Lord to look at men’s motives, not him. McArthur realizes the folly of that kind of false humility.
Chesteron thought that we should be confident of Truth, but less confident about our own selves. McArthur doesn’t fall for that post-mod ruse, either. He’s quite confident that his own take is the Truth, period.
McArthur knows that the church is to do one thing: 1) Defend the truth. 2) Proclaim the truth. 3) Live the truth. That’s it. One thing.
I used to be one of those mod-hip guys who think that Truth will last without McArthur, but now I know better.
Oh snap!
144 Comments(+Add)
“McArthur knows that the church is to do one thing: 1) Defend the truth. 2) Proclaim the truth. 3) Live the truth. That’s it. One thing.”
Great!! Now you are getting it!!
Jesus saith unto them, I am the way, THE TRUTH, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me (John 14:6 KJV).
Who is John MacArthur?
F Whittenburg
http://www.christiannewbirth.com
Who’s John MacArthur?
Tim,
From a quick perusal of Brant Hansen’s blog, I think you got punked.
Actually, I can’t tell whether your posting is showcasing Brant’s comment to demonstrate the typical watchdog mindset or to show his cleverness.
So now I am all confused.
Oh, my goodness! Do you guys have no clue who John MacArthur is? He’s one of the best radio preachers out there. If you haven’t listened to his [i]Grace To You[/i] radio program, you’re missing out on some very good Gospel teaching.
Oh, and this “Johnny MacTruthinator” thing is not only extremely condescending, it’s disrespectful toward a man who is without reproach. You owe him and apology.
Oh, my goodness! Do you guys have no clue who John MacArthur is? He’s one of the best radio preachers out there. If you haven’t listened to his [i]Grace To You[/i] radio program, you’re missing out on some very good Gospel teaching.
Oh, and this “Johnny MacTruthinator” thing is not only extremely condescending, it’s disrespectful toward a man who is without reproach. You owe him an apology.
What does PTWT stand for? Why do you feel the need to post twice?
So you don’t object to the label “one of the best radio preachers out there” but MacTruthinator gives you heartburn?
Spurgeon once said “If they called our Lord “beelzebub” and “that pestilent fellow” must we be addressed with honor?
David C,
The spirit of satire found in Brant’s post is fully endorsed here.
HAHAHAHAHA!!!! extremely condescending? we owe him an apology? OH MAN! that was great. “How dare you blashpheme the name of the Great One, full of grace and truth!” Sometimes I think that the ODMs should change their religion to “MacArthianity”
Tim, pardon me for not getting the satire right away. Having been in and around J Mac’s church for about 8 years, can you blame me for not catching it right away?
David C,
You’re doing pretty good, all things considered.
Praise
The
White
Truthinator
hahahaha… I’m sorry, I had to.
Honest Question, I wasn’t trying to post twice. It was a computer glitch. As for telling you what PTWT stands for, well, I’m keeping that to myself. It appears that unless someone is an Emergent Church disciple, the followers of the Truth will be mocked. Maybe I will reveal that in time, but not now.
Nathan, you proved my point. Enough said. No sense of me arguing with obstinate postmodernism.
Well, that sucks
the fact that you think John MacArthur and the Truth (capitol T) are synonymous says alot.
As it is, this site claims to be a watchdog on the watchdoggers. In reality, this site is nothing more than complaining about being caught as wolves defending the wolves in sheep’s clothing.
Nathan, who do you read?
It’s not just MacArthur I read. I also take up Albert Mohler, Charles Spurgeon, Jonathan Edwards, John Owen, and pretty much everyone else who is endorsed by The Puritan Board.
Sure, you could have resisted the moniker. You just chose not to.
This has got to be Ken.
This site has never claimed that.
Aren’t you concerned about the TRUTH WAR!?! WHY ARE YOU AGASINST TEH TRUTH!?!
I haven’t received the latest newsletter from The Puritan Board letting me know who I can read.
I can tell you for sure that I am not Ken Silva. Ask him.
Kenny at ThinkRdown or Jim from OldTruth would be my guesses. I’d probably say Jim since he only seems to come around at night and Jim is a self-proclaimed night owl.
or it could be this guy
“It’s not just MacArthur I read. I also take up Albert Mohler, Charles Spurgeon, Jonathan Edwards, John Owen, and pretty much everyone else who is endorsed by The Puritan Board.”
I would find it refreshing just to find someone today that says, “I read Paul, John, Peter, Matthew, or Luke…… This is what they have to say.
F Whittenburg
the problem is that you can exchange any of those names for “The Truth”.
“It’s not just MacArthur I read. I also take up Albert Mohler, Charles Spurgeon, Jonathan Edwards, John Owen, and pretty much everyone else who is endorsed by The Puritan Board.â€
I have never read any of these commentaries from these men and I don’t feel “scripturely challanged”. I have seen some of Spurgoen’s quotes and some Tozer quote’s that I liked, but I haven’t read any of their whole commentary on subjects. If any man lack wisdom, let him ask of God (James 1:5 KJV). Is this verse in the Bible just to fill up some space?
F Whittenburg
Hoo boy. Like a greased pig that refuses to get caught…
Sure, we can quote the Gospels, but do we rightly divide the word of Truth? Old Truth does. Most posters on the Puritan Board do.
CRN.Info? Not by a long shot!
WBSF, you must be one of the “mods” of this, um, place.
I’m just a guy who likes to share love. That’s all. OLD TRUTH WINS! OLD TRUTH WINS!!
I’m just a guy who likes to share love. That’s all. OLD TRUTH WINS! OLD TRUTH WINS!!
The Puritan Board? When my wife puts on makeup she uses her Mayflower Compact!
PTWT …..
The problem is that the kind of people I have read on Puritan Board et al seem guilty of idolatry to me – the way a ‘definitive’ word from one of these writers is treated as the final word (pun intended) on a subject. The simple fact is the John MacArthur is as much in error as anyone he likes to declare war on (’cause that is such a scriptural attitude) – he bases his eschatology which came from a dodgy prophecy given by a flaky prophetess to J N Darby (even Grudem and Piper sat so!).
I’d just like to know can we call you Jason? I’ll go back to Justin, if we can call you Jason.
Man, I’m glad that someone else wrote a post about this. When I first read about the excommunication, I knew it demanded acknowledgment, but I was too frustrated to comment at length. So now (thanks to Tim, Bill, and Brant), I can just add my USD 0.02 and leave it at that.
I was discussing Dr MacArthur (and to a lesser extent, Phil Johnson) with my dad the other day. Dad’s a big J-Mac fanboy, and understandably so. But he, too, was troubled by some of the over-arching and gross generalizations that MacArthur was making.
But Dad also encouraged me not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Which certainly made sense, or I’d be doing the same thing that I was decrying MacArthur for doing. But I think that the baby just leaped out of the window on its own this time.
P.S. I’ll never again refer to definitively ruling on someone’s salvation as “pulling a Steve Camp”. The stakes just went up. Besides, “pulling a J-Mac” sounds hipper.
As Julie would say, “Does MacArthur have the original copy of the Book of Life?”. I have major problems with Pagitt, but how can I say he is not a Christian?
By the way, the churches job is to protect the truth? How about preach the gospel. Even MacArthur and Sproul and Piper disgree on many things, so who is protecting the true truth??
But do they disagree on minute things, or major items? If so, cite them.
Praise The White Truthinator Ministries,
Why is defending Johnnie Mac so important to you? It seems like he is more important that God to you.
Tim – “… it is time for the more irenic of the Calvinist wing of Christianity to disassociate themselves from the man …”
Well, I may not be irenic but I am Calvinist and I have to say “disassociate” is not a strong enough word. MacArthur and his disciples are propagating as much or more error than they expose. They are guilty of error in their base theology (we all probably are) but they are particularly guilty in their effort to expose others. In doing this they compromise truth, love, etc. and place themselves in the hands of the accuser of the brethren by encouraging disdain, anger, lies, etc..
Although I am staunch non-Calvinist, and although I reject the smugness that comes with someone like MacArthur, I still contend there are major, and I emphasize MAJOR, problems with what people like Pagitt are and are not saying. To strip Pagitt of salvation publicly is spiritual hubris at its zenith and exposes the “I have all the truth” attitude that the truth war pontificators hold.
So while MacArthur claims the church’s calling is to protect the truth, millions die without Christ who know nothing of these truth wars and have never been reached with this protected truth. But how can someone really care about the lost when his theology believes the script has already been written without any necessary participation on our part?
By the way, I wonder why God didn’t unconditionally elect His truth to be protected? It would have made it so much easier, don’t ya think? Oh well, He has His reasons for allowing apostacy and error and raising up self proclaimed truth warriors. What a mess…
I find it interesting that PTWTMinistiries comes here with a non-descript moniker. Pronounces “truth”. Demands clarity on statements. All the while being shrouded with a veil of secrecy.
Ah ODM’s gotta love em…I mean that “GOTTA LOVE EM”
It is interesting the assumption that Doug is soooo far off.
I recommend listening to Matt Slicks interview with Doug and one might get a bit of a different perspective.
http://carmpodcasting.blogspot.com/2007/10/matt-slick-and-doug-paget-discuss.html
It is a much better interview than WoTM was as it is much less confrontational… Matt lets Doug answer questions instead of interrogates after giving pre- judgment.
iggy
“Sure, we can quote the Gospels, but do we rightly divide the word of Truth? Old Truth does. Most posters on the Puritan Board do.”
Yes, I agree, Paul exhorted us to “rightly divide the word of truthâ€.
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15).
If the word of truth can be “divided†as Paul claims, then that would mean that the word of truth could be understood in two ways “naturally†and “spirituallyâ€. Jesus taught in parables sometimes which shows that you can use natural truths to demonstrate spiritual truths. Some religions interpret the scriptures naturally and some interpret the scriptures spiritually and some religions use a mixture of both. That is why you have so many different denominations out of only one truth. But which way is the correct way to interpret scripture, so we can be profited by it?
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it (Hebrews 4:2).
In Hebrews 4:2 it says that the only way that the gospel will profit man is if they “mix it with faithâ€. Is faith then “natural†or “spiritualâ€?
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear (Hebrews 11:1-3).
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit (John 3:6-8).
By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible (Hebrews 11:27).
For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal (2 Corinthians 4:17,18).
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life (John 6:63).
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, (Ephesians 1:17,18).
As we can see by this verse John 6:63, Jesus even said that these words are “spirit and lifeâ€. Paul said the “carnal mind†equals death and the “spiritual mind†equals life and peace.
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace (Romans 8:5,6).
Why then do pastors that interpret the scriptures “naturallyâ€, call those that interpret the scriptures “spiritually†as evil? I know why.
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now (Galatians 4:29).
God is not a respecter of persons, you have turned these men into idols.
John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven (John3:27 KJV).
These men are not the final authority on scriptural interpetation, and neither is Bell, Mcmanus, Mc Larean, etc.
And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly (Acts 18:24-26).
Even Jesus didn’t teach his disciples everything, but left the deeper teaching to another source, and it was not a seminary!
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. (John 16:13 KJV).
And what is wrong with quoting the Gospels anyway, as long as it is done in proper context?
F Whittenburg
F Whittenburg
LOL!
He teaches things liek the Kigndom of God is only “spiritual” now and is only future. (? I can’t explain it but I have direct quotes of him stating this) Jesus stated:
I am both a physical and spiritual being.. so I see the Kingdom as more than something that will come down later… I see that I am in it and it is in me as I am in Christ and Christ is in me… Now.
He believes that unless you hold to Lordship Salvation, one cannot be saved. WHich then makes you wonder about Jesus stating, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”
But then who cares what Jesus states if you have your doctrine straight… right?
iggy
The watchdoggies do love to make their pronouncements from God on High Himself shrouded in anonymity.
I think J-Mac’s new nickname should be Johnny Mac-Strawman. After reading this interview, and looking through The Truth War, I find he’s very good at putting words in other people’s mouths.
I think the reason he gets away with this is because he takes thoughts of people like McLaren or Pagitt that aren’t really fully develops, and he extrapolates them to a logical extreme. It’s a very common thing on politics. It’s the same kind of reasoning used when Democrats accuse Republicans of being fascists, or when Republican accuse Democrats of being communists. I guess that when you operate out of a strict either/or paradigm, it seems like it’s bound to happen.
Right now it seems there are a large number of Christians telling us that you have to be either a Fundamentalist or an Emergent. Unfortunately, that leaves a lot of us who don’t fit in either of those categories scratching our heads.
Phil,
What’s interesting here is that you are right, there seems to be two groups of people saying, “Which one are you in?” and when I say, “I don’t think I’m in either one.” I get labeled depending on whom I am with at the time. It is so frustrating.
I reserve the right to subjectively place each of you in the catagory of my own Arminian choice. This is just for my own organization, and there is nothing you can do about it.
Emergent – a general catagory with no specifics
Emerging – the Emergent farm league
Emergency – Emergents going over the edge
Emergencia – the smug Emergents
Emergent Board Game – no dice, you move your piece wherever and whenever you like.
Emergent Village – a gated community without gates
Emergent Ice Cream – infinite flavors
Emergent Library – Every book every written in the religious section
Emergent Fellowship – General discourse with specifics forbidden
Emergent Bible – Still being finalized
Emergent Philosophy – Yes
“Sure, we can quote the Gospels, but do we rightly divide the word of Truth? Old Truth does. Most posters on the Puritan Board do.â€
Actually Jim misses quite a lot and in his cdoctrin justifies judging others salvaiton… like he has access to the Lamb’s book of Life…
He does not understand about judging others “fruit” nor what that even means… he uses it to tell if others are “saved:” or not, not that we all have rotten fruit and only God has good fruit.
But then again, I sometimes sound much like Bullinger standing against the “Old Faith” of the RCC, when Bullinger wrote in protest that he believed the “Ancient Faith”, I believe in “Eternal Truths”… not trusting my soul to 16th century theologians nor Jim B’s “old truth” which even then was vigorously argued over.
Luther hated Calvin and Zwingler… He at one time called Zwinger the devil… so personally I have issue in putting my salvation in the theology of man of these men even as great as they are.
Only in Jesus,
iggy
“Darbyist dispensational theology”
In my opinion, this comment shows that the author of the article in question has zero understanding of the issues within contemporary dispensationalism. Everyone (almost) espouses a much more developed view than Darby did.
I really could care less if PTWTministries is really an attorney/Financial Consultant/entrepreneur… or all three.
If someone is ashamed of linking to their words I don’t take them that serious.
iggy
Still just as wrong, though.
“Still just as wrong, though.”
Who says?
Me.
Seriously, I’m willing to let it slide, but I do agree with Bill MacKinnon’s contention that “Darbyist dispensational theology has as many holes as the theology of Brian McLaren”. But whether or not we should be going around poking holes in one another’s theology is another debate.
Prophecy is a non-salvation issue and as such deserves a wider interpretive allowance within the doctrinal community. I am not sure anyone has it completely right.
R.C. Sproul, for one…
With dispensationalism, there are all sorts of hermeneutical principals that have to be ignored, along with tossing out the plain meaning of Jesus’ and Paul’s words, Daniel’s prophecies, etc. Additionally, you have to toss out the recorded history of the first two centuries (and particularly the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.) – which matches up with much of what is written in Revelation…
Still, I’m not sure how we wandered into eschatology here…
Nevermind – I missed the first part of the article, as I was laughing too hard at Brant’s tongue-in-cheek synopsis…
I’d like Clearly to spell out “proper” dispensationalism. I’ve never heard it.
Back to MacArthur, I find this quote from him very odd:
First of all, isn’t that three functions?
Anyway, I find this thinking very akin to a Catholic understanding of the Church. If the Church is the holder, proclaimer, and protector of all Truth, it seems we should all be looking to some central authority to expound it for us. Maybe J-Mac wants to be the Protestant Pope?
Even Scripture doesn’t make the claim that it contains all Truth. Everything in it is true, but that doesn’t mean there are Truths that are revealed through other means like science, philosophy, or mathematics.
It seems to me that if we can’t even agree on the purpose of the Church, we’re going to have some problems.
Everyone is some form of dispensationalist. Who follows the Mosaic law? Who gets healed in our shadow? Etc., etc.
But I will say this, those that say the gifts of the Spirit have ceased are disingenous with the Scripture. One obscure refernce in I Cor. 13 and a whole dispensation is born. Is that thourough hermeneutics?
The truth protectors?? How about the Jesus livers! Even within MacArthurs own crowd some believe baptism saves so which truth are they now protecting?
Oh well, somewhere in that “Truth Protecter” moniker is a satirical poster. When in Rome…
Phil,
I have a deeper issue with that statement… where is Jesus?
Is not the Church the Body of Christ? In that, is not Jesus The Truth and that He, being God, is OUR SALVATION and OUR PROTECTOR…
This shows a theology that makes man the protector of God… it is soooooo “man-centered” that it deifies man above God…
SHeeesh maybe we should have sacrificed ourselves to save God!
And you are right! The church has “one function”
1. guard the truth
2. to proclaim the truth
3. to live the truth
Yep add then all up and it comes to one function… LOL!
Yet again, look at these “one function(s)”
1. Guard the truth… show me a verse… we are to guard our hearts with the truth… how, by Jesus Christ.
2. proclaim the truth… I have no issue with… but this
Are we stating that truth is an abstract thought that is more real than material and the physical? Or are we talking about Jesus the Person who is Truth Incarnate? If it is some abstract detached “ideal” then this is wrong and a Gnostic lie… and this is mostly what i hear from the JM camp… Some objective, abstract detached truth… that seems somehow apart and above God Himself… At least that is what Tony Rose argues for… and Jim Bublitz… and most the “modernist” teachers who claim to MacArthurism.
3. live the truth. Again, what does this mean… if it is as I hear them stating that is a lie and impossible…
But if Jesus is the Truth Incarnate… then It is He who gave His Life for us, Who now gives His Life to us, to now Live His Life through us. To say we then live some abstract principles called “truth” that is somehow detached from the Person of Jesus… is blasphemy and a lie from Satan… but that is what I am told as I speak to MacArthurites over and over again….
So, let them go and live by Platonist Dualism where abstract truth is more real than God’s creation and the Person of Jesus Christ… and be lost in their Gnosticism… and I will continue to serve the Living Savior Jesus Christ who is “The Way, The Truth, and The Life”.
iggy
Iggy,
Yes, I hear what you’re saying. It seems very odd to me now to hear “truth” talked about as some abract idea or concept. It seems so detached from way people actually are.
One of the most powerful images in the Bible of Christ and the Church is that of a Husband and his Bride. When people start using words like “guarding” or “protecting” it seems to take away some of the real power of the reality of knowing Christ.
I guess if I think my relationship with my wife. I would never go up and start telling someone how I can prove my wife is real, or how I know I am right about my wife. I would say, “let me tell you about my wife”. I can do this because I really know her. I think it should be just as easy for me to go up and say to someone, “let me tell you about Jesus”.
I don’t need to protect, defend, or proclaim anything. I just need to introduce people to Jesus.
I wonder if, since their view of truth is so depersonalized, if that is the reason they attack so many who state they have a “personal” relationship with Jesus… In fact I have been asked what I mean by that from people who follow MacArthur… and that should state something to worry about!
I have always been taught that the difference between true Christianity and “religion” is that religion is about appeasing an impersonal god, while true Christianity is the belief in a God who loves us and desires to life in and amongst us in a personal and intimate way.
But, what do I know, I am an emergent heretic who just love God because God loved me by sending His Son to die for me and to raise from the dead to give me His Life eternal…
I am content in that so I guess to hell with me in believing all that over some abstract impersonal objective truth…
Funny, the things of God I hold most tightly to and most lovingly to… and that hold me in the faith are my subjective experiences and beliefs… God did something to me I cannot explain of deny… I am not who I was when he found this lost lamb.
iggy
Many put to much faith in man and man’s “wisdom”.
Last time I checked, “Christianity” was Jesus Christ’s ministry to the earth……….
F Whittenburg
btw… who wants or needs a god that needs protecting?!?!?!
does not sound that god-like to me…
In His Hands,
iggy
Careful F., but if you keep talking like that you’ll get burned at the stake with Rob Bell.
Truth is a Jew named Jesus nailed to a cross.
They didn’t stick a book up there.
Can i just say…AMEN!!! To Rick’s “Jesus Living” comment?
Good.
AAAAAAAMEN!!
I’ve known of a group/ministry known as PTWT– Parents of Teens Working Together. Lol.
Wow.
So that’s what such a person would look like, if he or she actually existed — John MacArthur. Is he sinless, too?
I want a MacTruthinator shirt to go with my Trogdor the Burninator shirt.
Perhaps I should design such a shirt. It would be above reproach.
What about proaching? Can you proach Johnnie MacTruthinator?
Praise The White Truthinator Ministries,
Why is defending Johnnie Mac so important to you? It seems like he is more important that God to you.
Nathan, I’m not even going to bother answering that question. You are condescending and disrespectful. Even if I did answer you, I can perceive that your mind is already made up. Good day, sir.
Ok, Before I lay odds on how long it will take him to come back, was that a “so long, I’m not coming back?”
Ok, Before I lay odds on how long it will take him to come back, was that a “so long, I’m not coming back?â€
Who are you talking about?
No Joe, too nebulous. I’ll let you know when there is a complete and official dissolution.
Thank you Rick. When that happens I’ll lay out the odds.
Must not be talking about me then.
OK… who can come up with the funniest meaning PTWT? I still stand by “Praise The White Truthinator”
Translation: Johnnie McTruthinator is my idol.
Jason or whatever your name is, I was wondering if you had just hit us with the “that’s it I’m leaving.” Usually that happens and the person is back soon. So please don’t take it personal it’s just something I find funny. You obviously weren’t doing it so no worries.
P reparing
T he
W atchdoggies’
T riumph
Sir, I have had so many J Mac people attack me I had to wait a while to stop laughing at your response… in fact this seems to be the story most the time… when one asks a question of those that support J Mac they become suddenly condescending and arrogant and mean and (fill in the blank with anything but the answer to the question)…
Yet, it is demand of the rest of us to respond and give an answer no matter how rude it is asked or condescending it is presented…
That dear sir is a double standard and I am glad you stated that these are the rules you want to use… so I bit you ado and hope the best for you… and I will only laugh at you pompous assumption that you can drop bombs in places without any links to who you really are… then think you are someone more righteous than Nathan or anyone else here…
iggy
Pausing To Whine Today ministries…
In all fairness and honesty, I don’t have a website that is completely up and running for you guys to peruse right now. That is why I haven’t shared a link. Perhaps within the next two weeks or so. I work a full-time job (60+ hours a week), and not much time for anything else except seminary studies.
P reparing
T he
W atchdoggies’
T riumph
Pausing To Whine Today ministries…
Hahahahaha. Good ones, guys…but both are incorrect. It’s so kiss-simple that once my website is fully up and running, it will totally surprise you.
PTWT
Preparing the Way for Truth
Possibly Throwing in the Wet Towel
Probably Talking With clenched Teeth
Perpetually, Though, Wanting to Talk.
I work a fulltime job on call 24/7 and am doing an internship at my church as an associate pastor… I have two kids (one almost 4 and one 2)
I sometimes work straight through two shifts… which adds up to over 24 hours…
I have an online radio station I run and do shows for it also as I do the programing for it.
In there somewhere I blog and read books that are sent to me for reviews.
And God helps me in all that!
I also have given people some clue to my identity…
iggy
PTWT
Preparing the Way for Truth
Possibly Throwing in the Wet Towel
Probably Talking With clenched Teeth
Perpetually, Though, Wanting to Talk.
Oh, this is great…the humor (although the first one is pretty close)
In all seriousness, stop trying to guess. I’ll let you guys know once it’s up and running.
Well, Now I have a reason to live a few more days
Paul addressed this very thing of “pastor worship” in the church at Cornith and started by calling them babies (1 Cor 3:1).
For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to EVERY MAN? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase (1 Corinthians 3:3-7 KJV).
It is good to respect or honor a good pastor but I also have seen the ugly side of “pastor worship”. This practice is very dangerous. I was once in a small group Bible study with people from several different denominations. There was one guy there that would always start telling us about how great his pastor was and how great he had preached that Sunday and how it so blessed and edified and fed him. One day he came in to the group and flopped his Bible down on the table and said, “I just don’t know what to believe anymore”. His great pastor was leaving the church with some of the members and starting a new church over some arguments with the deacons. He was in despair. His faith had been built upon his pastor and not Jesus Christ.
The reason that I stress so much a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is because one day someone could take away your Bible, pastor, cell / small group, TBN, etc. and throw you into prison alone somewhere. If you don’t have a true personal relationship with Jesus Christ through the indwelling Holy Spirit, then you are “toast”. Your faith has to be built upon Jesus and not on people professing Jesus. Ask the followers of Rev. Jim Jones. Your faith has to be placed on the ROCK that can’t be moved and not on the people that can!
F Whittenburg
http://www.christiannewbirth.com
Hello Iggy,
I didn’t know you did book reviews. I think you would like my book. It sounds like you have had some of the same experiences I have had and come to some of the same conclusions. My ebook When Faith Came is a free download on my website in PDF format.
http://www.christiannewbirth.com/whenfaithcame.html
F Whittenburg
No.
I hereby state that I will spend at least 2 percent of tomorrow trying to guess.
You can’t stop me, even if you Present Theological reasons Why Termination is necessary.
So that’s like 28.8 minutes. Wow. That’s quite a commitment.
Professor Marvel never guesses, he knows!
Well, I might as well chime in:
Pimpin’ The White Throne
Practicing Theology While Tipsy
Pretzels, Tasty Wheat Treats
I’ll take some of those Pretzels.
Phil is in the lead.
Pretzels? I thought this blog was giving out “nut bars”.
PTWT
Playing Twister With Tony (jones that is)
Pick The Whopper w/o Tomatoes
Pluck Tomorrow’s Wheat Today
Paranoid Terrorist Who Tremble
Pointing Toward What Topples
Poinsettias That Wrap Tortillas
Poison To Who Tastes
OK I am done… but I wanted to state this to “Justin”…
I apologize if I have been a bit too rough with you. I am trying to tone down my rhetoric. It is just sometimes people come here without giving any accountability for their words and puke some stupid thing as they drive by post… and then return to laugh at us as we actually try to dialog with them… some of us, like myself have gotten tired with it. Most the time it is the same old thing and that person is not here to talk but to just put down others and spread some hate in Jesus Name and I find that quite sickening.
I have begun to see you are not that way. So again, i apologize for being disrespectful to you if I have been….
Give us a bit more time to guess what the letters mean OK? Then do let us know. LOL!
I hope that you can begin to see that some of us “heretics” (unsaved ones like me as deemed by Ken Silva at one time) are actually people who love Jesus.
Be blessed,
iggy
The other green meat.
We are to earnestly contend for the Truth in the midst of a world filled with people who God willed to never recieve it – and for all the believers who had no choice either, and can never fall away.
To J-mac’s pedantic pronouncement:
We don’t need to defend the Truth. The Gospel is the Truth.
The Gospel IS the victory. There’s no defending what is already victorious.
It’s quite interesting and quite sad to see a guy attacked who truly tries his best to stick to teaching and quoting the Word of God. These are the same folks defending the likes of Warren and friends, Hybels, etc. who slaughter the Word of God using whatever translation (i.e The mochary Message) that best suits their fancy to run home whatever point they’ve concocted at the time.
No one is attacking him for trying to be faithful. He’s criticized for HIS attacks on others who are trying to be faithful.
There’s a difference.
Kent,
I have seen where J Mac does all you stated also… so I guess I wonder where does humility fit in your view?
I also just wonder at anyone who thinks that their “god” needs defending… I see my God as defending and protecting me… I am in His hands not He in mine.
iggy
One quick point. Peterson never intended The Message to be a translation. It is purely a paraphrase, and it even says so in the beginning of every copy I’ve seen. Peterson intended to be a reading Bible, not a study Bible.
Kent’s point still stands. Pastors will use different versions to fit there message. Warren loves to do this, check out his book and then look up the passages and read the entire context of the passage. It really is sad.
So tell me Kent and Kyle, which is the one true translation to rule them all?
“So tell me Kent, which is the one true translation to rule them all”?
I’ll put it this way. I have a whole lot more respect for one who stands on one version, rather than using 14 or 15 depending which one best agrees with his oppinion.
Also, everyone is so quick to defend The Message as only a paraphrase. Yet Warren, constantlly quotes “The Bible says”, then goes into that “Mess”age to pull out his favorite verse, or half verse, depending on if the second half might contradict his point.
The best ones out there are the Interlinar Greek NT, NASB, Amplified, ESV, NKJV, KJV then NIV is ok but it is thought for thought and should not be used for studing. If you can take the time it would be best to learn greek and hebrew. Remember no translation is inspired just the autographs. I am not a king james only guy, they just are illogical and irrational. The version I use the most are the NASB, ESV and NIV. Every preacher will tell you it does not matter which one you read just that you read it!
The best one I can think of of the top of my head is when Warren was preaching about laughing he refered Psalms 2. he said the shows God has a sense of humor. But that is totally misusing and turning that passage on its head. It is really heartbreaking to see preachers do this. Go and look up the passage and see for yourself.
So as long as someone says “the greek says” or “what this means” and sticks with one translation they’re cool with you?
I don’t see anything wrong with quoting from multiple translations. If one version helps draw out a certain idea in the text a little better than another, what’s the problem?
Kyle, you may need to cite a better example than that. Even the good ol’ King Jimmy says, “The One enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them.” That’s not a translation issue there.
Also, I find it kind of funny that bring that up, because I remember when the ODM’s were making a big deal about it. Apparently, the only emotion God is capable of is anger, according to them.
I will also add this. Every time a pastor preaches at all, he is in sense offering his translation. He is reading the passage, figuring out what it means, and telling the congregation. Functionally, it’s the same thing as a translation.
The ODM’s weren’t making a big deal because they don’t think God has a sense of humor. They were making a big deal because Warren took Psalms 2:4 completely out of context. Not a big deal, but it was kind of a dumb verse to choose.
No the passage is not about Him laughing and having a good time. God does have these emotions. But Warren uses a passage quotes the first couple words and then builds a doctrine of a laughing God. Why is he laughing because of something funny, humorus or joyous. No this is about the poeple that will kill His Son. I thin kit clears it self up when you read teh whole passage. The Lord is “scoffing” not enjoying the reaction the world will have to His Son. So the way Warren used it was out of context. He could of used passages where it talks about the joy of the Lord in Christ, over His people. But he chose a version and a passage to fit his message. He does it backwards. Your message should fit the passage not the passge fitting the message.
So it was a total abuse of Psalms 2. These are Warrens words
“One of my favorite verses in the Bible is Psalm 2:4, “The One enthroned in heaven laughs.†Isn’t that a great verse? God has a sense of humor. God laughs!…Do you want to be more like God? Learn to laugh. A sense of humor can preserve your sanity. ” That is not what Psalms 2 is talking about. Exegesis vs. eisigesis. It is not only Warren or the seeker mode that does this, it is spread out overall the church. It is truly sad when we manpulate the words of God to fit our style, tradition, ideas and mission.
Not if you study to show yourself approved. If you just preach about what this passage means to me and here is a way you can use it. Then yes that is a translation and eisigesis. But you can preach what the bible teaches, people have been doing faithfully since penticost.
Kyle,
I’m not necessarily defending Warren’s point here. I’m just saying that that issue wasn’t because of what translation he was using.
Also, I think when you say “you can preach what the bible teaches” it is a gross over-simplification of preaching. It also is a great way for a pastor to abuse his authority. If I had a nickel for every time I heard a pastor use the words, “it’s in the Bible”, well, I’d have a lot of nickels.
The rabbis argues over the translation of Scripture, and it was in their original language. Why do we think it should be any easier?
It is not easy, you have to study. In fact the hardest job in this world is being a preacher! You can teach what the bible says, but it requires a lot of work. Also it is the transaltion he choose one that does not say the Lord scoffs. I have not looked at every translation, but I think all of them but scoff in there because that is what it is. So Warren puprosefully use a translation to best suit his needs in his mission. Becasue most peopl know that having a sense of humor and scoffing are complete opposites.
Actually, JohnD (who goes to Saddleback) wrote this article here on CRN.Info which agreed with Warren taking the “laughter” passage out of context.
Sometimes I think Rick does go “translation shopping” and ends up out of context, but I also have heard JMac stay in the ESV (or whatever) and be just as out of context (on national TV, nonetheless). Somehow I doubt you could find a preacher that nails everything right every day of every week, and if we wanted to highlight their mistakes as the sum total of their being, we’d be all the worse for doing so…
that was a good article. I can happen to anyone(eisigesis) that’s why we must study hard and why the profession of preaching is truly the hardest in the world. They are dealing with the words of God. Now that is a hard and fearful thing to do.
I don’t know about this. I preach pretty regularly, and I can think of at least a dozen other things I’d rather not do. I find preparing and delivering sermons quite enjoyable, really.
Yeah I understand, but the duty that you have is more important than any job you can find on this planet. With the rewards and consquences even greater. I don’t want “DIRTY JOBS” but preaching is still dirty and hard than those jobs. Remember the hardness of the job is not determined only by the phyicality of the job.
Kyle,
I still don’t buy that preacing itself is the “hardest” job on the planet in that sense. I think that probably people who do the most for the Kingdom are people we hardly see, the ones who aren’t up on stage or behind a pulpit. Really, telling people what to do and think is pretty easy.
Is it the duy of the preacher to stand behind a pulpit and tell people what to do? That is pretty shallow. But if that is your def. of preching then yeah it is a pretty easy job. Look Oprah is the greatest preacher ever.(Sorry lol)
Kyle,
No that what I gathered your definition to be from your comments. My dad was a pastor and I’m a campus pastor, so I find you a bit condescending here. Get off your high horse.
I’m not saying that pastor jobs are easy, but I also think there are a lot of pastors who are lazy from what I can tell. I know several people who went to Bible School because getting a degree in something else was “too hard”. I also know people who are truly called.
Sorry let me get down. I am not a pastor I am a PK though. Most people think being a pastor is exactly what you said. Telling people what to do for 2 hours on a sunday morning and then they get six days off. Just because there are lazy pastors does not mean the job is easy. I think, just what I think, that being a pastor is the hardest job in the world! Sorry if I offened in any way.
Ah, another PK. That explains a lot…
I’m not offended, I just get a bit touchy when people start telling me about how pastors should be. My grandpa was a pastor also (old-time A/G), and it gets my Pentecostal blood boiling.
It is hard being a pastor…
because of the sheep that would deign to lead a shepherd.
because of people who are quick to remind of you of your “elder requirements” for every perceived failure, but won’t shut their mouths and obey the clear command of God to submit and not make the pastor’s work a burden.
because of people who use the bible as a bludgeon to set up spiritual language to avoid the oversight of their leaders in the name of “accountability”.
it’s hard because church folk will try to kill your spirit while smiling at you.
it’s hard because you put in the best hours of your day for the care of their souls and then they come claiming to know more about your profession than you.
It’s hard because people walk into your office and tell you how to do your job every day forgetting that you don’t work for them (it’s Jesus) and still they are obligated to provide you a livelihood.
Phil it appears your view of preaching is nowhere near where it should be to take on the position of pastoring a flock of the Children of God. Goodness, have you ever even considered the fact that you will be held accountable to God for those you lead? what you teach? the fruits of your labors behind the pulpit? If that doesn’t cause you concern and allow you to recognize that there is no other person in the flock ordained by God to speak week in and week out for God and convey what God means by what He says, to God’s people, well I feel for you man. To count it such a small and simple thing the noblest of all professions.
It is amazing that people who spend far too little time in God’s word to understand it would so wildly speak ill of one who has spent somewhere around 30 hours per week to faithfully shepherd a flock of God’s children.
Projection.
And Bill, you now it’s 30 hours a week how?
Joe,
When he took on the pastorship at Grace CC that was one of his conditions going in. I was fortunate enought to have business take me to SoCal around the time of GCC’s 50th Anniversary and I was able to hear it directly from him in the message that day on Isaiah 66:1-2.
And it’s not a matter of boasting Joe, but he understands that the better he knows the word of God and what it means the more capable he will be to convey its meaning to those he’s gifted to under-shepherd.
Tim,
Not too sure what your point is in that link to Projection but let me suggest you take your mind out of Freud and saturate it with a good translation of God’s Word, say the NASB possibly, and give the Holy Spirit the time to wwork you through your more serious problems with people that lead you to make bizarre responses like that last one.
I just think this as arrogant… in fact 30 hours a week is not much at all when we are called to live a life.
I know pastors that put that much time in visitation let alone in preparing for a sermon… I know pastors who put total trust in the Holy Spirit to teach and give better “biblical” sermons than some i have heard out of the church you are mentioning…
Also, every time I read about this “30″ hours i see one thing missing… and that is the Holy Spirit… every time I read about this , it seems so man based in prep… and so self glorifying…
I know of PDC that prepare their sermons a year in advance then put in 60 to 80 hours to make it happen… so to me this seems really irrelevant unless one just is tooting his own horn.
I bet RW puts in at least that… if not more.
That is just my observation though… as time seems to mean very little if one is “in Christ” and let’s God teach through them.
iggy
And at the point you figured that out is when you should have stopped putting fingers to keyboard.
Not to dig up old posts for the heck of it, but there’s something about this thread that’s been bugging me ever since I read it yesterday. Bill’s guote here is a good jumping off point:
First, this post is dripping in so much condescension, it’s hardly readable. Bill, you don’t me. You don’t know anything about my ministry. So please hold your judgement for someone else.
Secondly, I would like someone to show me from Scripture where scriptures says, “there is no other person in the flock ordained by God to speak week in and week out for God and convey what God means by what He says, to God’s people”. A pastor is not an oracle. He is not some guru on a mountain somewhere who people come to for spiritual nuggets. This is what we have made pastors into in the American church, and I believe we are reaping the fruits of it now. We have people in churches who should be teaching others, but no, they are content to come and sit and listen to the same pastor week in and week out and remain unchanged.
Also, about the whole 30 hours thing. I don’t spend that much time on my sermons. I couldn’t if I wanted to. I work a full time engineering job during the week. Personally, I feel I can prepare a decent sermon in 8-10 hours. Honestly, I think that is overkill sometimes. There is no way that a listener can absorb that much information during a sermon. Now, I am always reading, or studying during the week, and I do tend to include information that I glean from things. But I don’t read a lot with the intention of including material in a sermon. Frankly, I think someone who spends that much time preparing a sermon would probably be better off being a seminary professor.
If the people under my ministry looked at me as the only person ordained by God to speak God’s word into their lives, I would consider myself a failure. My goal as a pastor is to make my sermons obsolete. I want my sermons to inspire others to read the Word, study on their own, and tell their friends. I want them to tell me that they learned the information in my sermon on their own. It might be a pipe dream, but it’s what I desire. We have too many wanna-be supermen in pulpits already.
OK, I feel better.
The human idolatry is some of the most disgusting in all of the evangelical community. I am of Cephas, I am of MacArther, I am of Bell, I am of “fill in the blank”. All men have feet of clay. Who cares the number of hours one proclaims they spend in the Word? Some missionaries spend 80 hours a week ministering to AIDs orphans, but they are not idolized.
The Word warns of of drawing disciples unto ourselves. Quoting men like they are quoting some divine authority is wrong on all levels. Any truth that MacArthur or Phil ever speak on behalf of God is by His grace. It is amazing that so called Calvinist who claim to embrace God’s total working and sovereignty would insinuate that MacArthur gets deeper insight because of his own endeavors and not because of the “doctrines of grace”
When you desire to lift up a man God’s sovereignty must suffer, you see, MacArthur spends SO much time in the Word. What a hero!! How many hours does he spend in the Word on his “Christian cruise”? Between lobster tails he has his devotions. It is so ridiculous.
Phil your post is loaded with misconstrued perceptions of what I was even saying so I’ll not respond to anything you have said short of saying that your contention that I know nothing about you shows you have no intention of holding yourself accountable to what you say and have said. The fact is people can and should judge you rightly for what you say, especially considering that you have positioned yourself in the pastorship of a church body.
And Rick – it’s not idolatry, it is merely presenting a higher standard then the horrificly low standard for leaders throughout the churches in America and elsewhere that are lacking in spiritual growth due to the immaturity of their leaders who spend relatively little time in studying the word of God. Is 30 the standard, certainly not. But it proves diligence and a serious level of respect for the position of pastoring a flock of believers.
Way to take a shot at Calvinism while you’re throwing darts Rick – quite juvenile of you I must say. First you charge people with idolatry when they esteem the study of God’s word by pastors, and then you present a straw man argument against Calvinism where there is absolutely no connection to it.
Joe Martino you asked “And Bill, you now it’s 30 hours a week how?”
Read the following post (about halfway down the page):
http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/12/19/an-interview-with-john-macarthur/
It is amazing to me that you all take shots at whomever you feel rubs you wrong with little consideration of what you are robbing people of when you take such a low view of God and His workings in the lives of men. I would suggest you spend time watching the Baptisms and Lord’s Supper at the bottom of this page and witness the testimonies of God’s regenerative works in the hearts of men and women – Glory to Him and Him alone:
Here is the link:
http://fbcms.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=154&Itemid=108
Thanks Bill
I shouldn’t take shots at Calvinism, but it is so easy. I really should let it sink on the merits of its own unbiblical teaching. MacArthur is a good Bible teacher, however, his beginning premise is flawed. I wonder how we found out he studies 30 hours a week?
He is an idol to some, just like Bell is to others. All of us must guard against that which begins with admitting it. I have no idol but the Igginator!
Rick,
Not to make this about Calvinism, but for you to call it unbiblical is quite disturbing as the texts that support it are vast while the supportive texts for Arminianism I’ve yet to find in any way convincing. Not to mention those who defend the anti-Calvinistic position choke on trying to explain or explain away many passages that describe Salvation, i.e. Dave Hunt or George Bryson in book or audio debates vs. James White.
To be honest you seem quite arrogant in your comments as if you are the holder of truth when apparently you are not even aware that you must dismiss volumes of Scripture if you claim what you are claiming. Romans 9 Paul dealt with the whole issue, yet you have the boldness in your own mind to claim that God being Sovereign in the Salvation of men to be unbiblical. It seems humility is lacking Rick, specifically a willingness to humble yourself to God and his attributes of mercy, grace and love, righteousness and holiness in all He does, specifically His purpose and will that He has the ability and right to do all things to bring glory to Himself.
I would invite you to consider with regard to the idolatry issue, that you spend more time dealing with the short-comings of men mentioned here as opposed to casting the charge of idolatry at random, unnamed people and ignoring the root issues such as pastors spending little time or insufficient time in studying God’s word to prepare to shepherd God’s people, even going so far as to preach others sermons rather than spending time in prayer and study to speak God’s message to God’s people.
Just a thought or two…
Joe, you’re welcome.
As if none of our churches have baptisms and eucharist like the link above…
pshaw.
harumph.
whatever.
The human idolatry in the Calvin camp is only equaled by the Arminian camp. One man’s unbiblical teaching is another man’s clear “doctrines of grace”. Your observation about Pastors though is accurate. I would however include that 30 hours of Bible study should be complimented by 30 hours of prayer.
That is usually not the case.
BTW – whichever theological position you hold will dictate who you think wins the debates. Curious, don’t cha think?
Rick,
Consider what JM said in the answer in the link I provided, specifically:
Question: What were you committed to, and what did you end up doing in those days?
John: I had said that I wanted at least 30 hours a week to study. I believed that Ephesians 4 says the pastor’s job is to perfect the saints, and that comes about through the Word of God. I thought that possibly the other 10 to 15 hours would be used in visitation and so on. But the men said, “We’ll take care of the visitation, because James says visitation is pure religion. Everybody does that.†But, of course, what you anticipate and what really happens are two different things. I found that my “other 10 or 15″ hours turned out to be another 30 in addition to the 30 I already had for study — I never sacrificed that.
Is it the standard, no, but it provides a good example for pastors to consider.
Is it the standard? No, but it provides a good example for pastors to consider.
AMEN!
After a cursory glance at this website, and looking at the Hyper-Campbellite leanings, I find nothing Christian about this rant-site.
You rant against the watchdogs, yet you are just as guilty as they are of their “hypocrisy.”
Seems like Matthew 7:20 and some of the Pauline epistles come to mind when it comes to this rant-site.