Just thought I would add this to the relevant conversation.
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39 Comments(+Add)
Heretic! Of course I’m kidding.
Just throw this out there. He sounds a lot like the seeker mode of evanglism. No gospel, no sin, no judgment, no salvation where mentioned. He only said that we need to show the poeple of the world the “uniqueness” and the “finger print of God in their soul.” Now I do understand this is not the corpus of his doctrine. But it just sounds so familiar. That is is about you specail purpose and that God has a unique plan for you. Also shouln’t christian be similar in our character but different in personalities. So in essence we are clones of Christ. We are being shaped in His image. There where a few other things that caught my ‘doctrinal ear” but I do love the fact that he is calling the church to stop following the world. But why doe he not give the remedy. Maybe he does latter on. If so what is his practical remedy to fight relevance?
Kyle,
2 Things:
1. You need to proof your comments bud.
2. You gleaned all that by watching a two minute video. I’m impressed. Imagine what you could do if you listened to a few of his sermons all the way through.
What do you mean proof?
Yup I just listened to what he said! Like I said I know this is not the corpus of his teaching or doctrines. But those are his words and I am sure he would think them to be important. That is the imperssion that I got. The new relvance is not to be relvant.
I was just suggesting that this might be the same old present just in a new shiny wrapping. Could be possible.
Does anyone know what he says we should be to be the trailblazer to be the world to relvance? What is his soultion to this problem?
Nevermind Kyle, my mistake.
Sounds to me like he’s dividing between two different meanings of relevant, if only someone would write a post like that.
I do not know what he believes about the end times, but the church doesn’t need to get anywhere first. We need more of Christ, not to create something that the world desires. We can never out world the world. They have the best of everything if we measure by that standard.
I believe the Bible teaches things will get worse in and out of the church. I also believe it is being born out today however camoflagued by newness and excitement. The Spirit is calling the church to Christ and His Word, not to be compared with what the world does or doesn’t do.
It is exciting and imaginary and relevant, but is it Christ? I do not believe Christ is interested in these things, I believe He is coming in divine wrath and vengeance, which, you will hear very little about in American churches. And if that is true, we should warn people. If its not true, well, let’s watch where the world is going and attempt to get there first. (chapter and verse?)
Yeah Tim….maybe you could write a post like that.
Kyle…”The new relevance is to not be relevant”….funny!
The problem with trying to be relevant is this….most people have no idea what it means to be relevant. I would refer you to Tim Reeds post here on CRN.info and to the Apostle Paul. (Paul’s post is in the bible)
Peace!
This will be somewhat of a “rant”…
Doing youth ministry I’ve come to a few conclusions.
#1. Jesus Christ is attractive.
#2. Students need to see that in the lives of the adults around them.
#3. Most adults don’t model or experience the “peace that surpasses all understanding” or “The joy of the Lord is my strength”
#4. Most people in the church are as miserable in the church as those that are outside it’s walls.
#5. Our faith can’t be deduced to a system of facts, figures, programs, events, and/or 12 step programs to holiness.
Each and every week I hear from or hear about some parent lamenting the fact that their child is doing this or doing that. Invariable I hear “We put them in youth group, we sent them to Christian School, we have Christian radio on all the time. etc…We’re did we go wrong?”
My standard reply is always. “Does Christ make a difference in your life?” If “yes” then tell me how? If “no” then tell me why not. If they say “yes” typically they quantify with a list of do’s and dont’s. If they say “no” they typically justify it with a statement like “Well this ________ happened” or “I tried and it didn’t meet my ______________”
So do I want Relevance? Only if it means lives are transformed to look more and more like Jesus. Only if it means that people get a desire to follow Jesus passionately the rest of their lives. Only if it means others will see our good works then glorify our father in heaven.
Maybe because it doesn’t work? Scaring people into Heaven is not a complete message and quite frankly it’s lazy evangelism to shout about “You’re going to Hell”.
Very sound points Rick… everything said sounds “good” (granted it’s only a couple minutes) but completely lacks any real substance… not really sure why it was posted and what it proves at all.
One good point the speaker did make was that the quest to be relevant is a wild goose chase (though this just seemed to be a springboard to his speech).
using the judgement of God is not lazy evangleism. It should be in all of it. For the law is a guardian or tutor to lead us to Christ. The law shuts ever mouth. Wisdom starts with the fear of the Lord. I’m not sure what you guys think of Ray Comfort and Kirk over at WDJD, but that stuff helped to present a clear picture of the gospel. For there is no gospel without the law. I understand there are different ways of doing this but if you leave out the bad news then they will never understand the good news. Telling someone they are going to hell is love! Because then you get to tell them that God so loved the world!
1. The audience was all Christians… this wasn’t a gospel presentation.
2. I will try to find the whole thing. Erwin would agree with you, Rick. We cannot compete with MTV. When Erwin says we need to “get there first”, he means in terms of creating a compelling community (not programs, events, music, etc.) where something spiritually and relationally dynamic is happening.
When we opened our venue of Mosaic (Mosaic Inland), there were two churches within a 5 mile radius that were on the 100 largest churches in America list. They have money like no other. Erwin told us that our goal was to no make a better, more elaborate church gathering. We were to create a community with an ethos that was incredibly attractive to an audience those churches were overlooking… the non-believer.
I don’t know, I see the “Way of the Master” stuff as almost a form of spiritual manipulation. It’s very similar to the way Mormons ask very guided questions. Sometimes I think people will say yes to to those types of presentations just to git rid of people.
I also really doubt the love of some people who seem to enjoy telling others they are going to hell. The old adage of actions speaking louder than words seems to apply here. I think we can genuinely warn people, but we have to continually check our motives. The allure of proving ourselves right is quite intoxicating.
If he was referring to getting to more commited and loving relationships befoer the Dr. Phil crowd does, I agree. That will only come through a deeper commitment to prayer and the Word itself. Prayer is the lost conduit of power without which we will continue to fail.
chris,
I agree… thanks for the rant!
iggy
Phil
How is it spiritual manipulation?
I personally love to tell people they are going to hell!
Outrages statement, huh?
The reason is becasue the you can so the grace of God in Christ. The ultimate fulifment of love your neighbor is just this. What great love is there then the mercy they can find in Christ. If we with hold this or sugar coat it then we diminish the love that we show them. Our job is not to get “converts” so to speak. It is to declare the gospel to all of creation to the end of the earth and the end of time. The gopsel is relevant to every culture at everytime in history. Someone plants the seed someone else will water but God will bring the growth!
I agree our motives must always be checked in what we do. Even in blogging we can see the seeds of pride, I know personally this has happened to me. That’s why we look to Christ!
Phil,
Could I ask you two diagnostic questions?
Joe,
Go ahead…
You must be a hoot at parties…
The reason I think it’s somewhat manipulitave is that I’ve seen charismatic people who could sell an air conditioner to an eskimo. Sometimes I think that a Gospel presentation based on that type of presentation leads to a type of buyer’s remorse. It’s like afterwards, it leaves the converted person asking themselves what they just bought into. I find that in a way these “drive-by” presentations can actually harden people to the Gospel.
“I personally love to tell people they are going to hell!”
An Autobiography of Fred Phelps.
Yeah but they (Ray & Kurt) don’t push for “conversion.” No one should. It is not our duty to “win them for Christ.” That is just plan crazy?!?!
I know the type you talk about. It is like a vacum cleaner salesman come to your house(I was one for about 2weeks). All they care about is getting the sale, and will do pretty much anything to get it. They care nothing for the person buying it on the rewards they will get from selling it. A lot of people do that with Christ. We we see our job as winning people to Christ we take what the bible says about savlation and throw it out the window and make our own ways of doing evanglism. From repeated “conversion”, altar calls, come as you are and leave as you came evangleism is not the gospel. It is man centerd and man focused with no room for the glory of God in it. I agree Phil about the “buyers remorse.” People sugar coat the gospel and do not talk about the sacrfice of killing your old nature, the one you love so much, and putting on the altar for God. This is why we we sugar coat, deny, edit or do anything to the gospel of Christ we show first of all no love for God and secondly no love for our neighbor.
Didn’t you know God hates everyone except the Phelps family.
Kyle,
Well, I must admit, I’ve not seen much of their stuff first-hand, but I’ve run into a number of their “disciples”, and they’ve all seemed quite pushy. Maybe they were just over-enthusiastic.
Kyle,
My issue is not in the “style” of presentation… i have done and do use the same “style” as Ray Comfort… yet, the issue is when Way of The Master radio pushes that as the “only” way to do it as if it is some magic formula.
Personally i came to Christ through someone who showed love for me. They took time… I had heard the “gospel” numerous times from “Jim and Tammy Baker” but also did not want to become in their “image”. I loved the message, but not the messenger.
My “friend” who lead me to Christ was patient, kind, long-suffering, and so on… it was his kindness that showed me God’s Kindness and I became a follower of Jesus.
I have heard of many street preachers and even yelled down the preincarnation of Ken Silva, Brother Jed and”I was a disco queen” Sister Cindy. They preached pure judgement and condemnation and republican politics… and not much “gospel” at all, but they would have been loved by the ODM’s, (Until they found out Brother Jed was a Finny fan).
It is not about us and what or how we do it… Paul states we preach the “foolishness to men” or as stated in God’s word…
IOW, Paul states that we preach this foolishness and later Paul states, “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” meaning it is God who saves us with this foolish message and not about what we do at all! Men hear the message and that message is Jesus raised from the Grave… and that Jesus is the Christ. (Acts 5:42)
be blessed,
iggy
possible. Ever done street evang…It is really hard to do.
Try watching a couple of there episodes online at there site. I really think they are hitting the nail on the head.
Which is worse being a little pushy while still presenting the gospel or sitting on your couch while watching the Simpsons?
There style is not the best or only out there. Although I do fell it makes simple and accessable to a lot of people to use. But if we neglect at all to tell them the foolish message then we failed. If we do not tell the the full gospel of Christ then we fail. Only when we proclaim Him and lift Him up will all men be drawn unto Him. It is not our job to draw(Holy Spirit), it is our job to proclaim.
So I agree with what you said people are different. Jude says it all
22And have mercy on those who doubt; 23save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garmen stained by the flesh.
Me personally it took a giant beating for me to get it. So are like this and they need to be confront radically with the truth others need mercy and compassion with the truth. Most people can pick up on what people need in just a few sentences. Personally I think Ray does a great job of discrning this, he truly is a gifted eveanglist. You look at Billy B. he preached hellfire and love. It worked great!
Sorry I mean billy G.
This is somewhat of a false dichotomy. There’s a time for everything.
I grew up in a tradition that tried very hard to guilt Christians into evangelizing, and I have seen the fruit of it. It’s generally not long-lasting. I would much rather have a church full of committed Christians who live a consistent Christian lifestyle, than a bunch of street preachers. Our very lives should be a Gospel presentation.
I’m not sure that hell plays much of a roll in evangelism. Jesus seemed to apply it to the religious more than to the sinners he hung out with. I’ll have to think about it for a bit I think.
Yeah but some guy calculated that in the Bible 13% of Jesus words where concerning a place we call hell. It is important the bible talks about it and that is where men are heading and then more importantly it talks about the solution Jesus Christ. Jesus called everyone to repent for the kingdom of God was at hand. He warned people that if they do not they will be burned like chaff where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. This was a message for all.
I think we need more guilt in the church. We, even me, focus own our own spiritual needs and how much we can grow we we show no love towards the heathen and his spiritual needs. We just need to remember the remedy for guilt turn to Christ and stop doing what is wrong. That is the only way to cure guilty. Now I do understand some people will use guilt as a tool for personal advancement and manipulation but that still does not mean guilt is wrong. Just the way the used it.
Well there is a time and a place for everthing this is more often than not used as an excuse as to why I should enjoy Homer eating a donut and drinking a beer and not enjoy telling people of Christ. There is only some much time until he returns and there is only so much life our neighbor has to live. We in america seem to no longer have a sense of urgency with evanglism. We will say we believe in the return of Christ but it does nothing to motivate us. This is truly sad.
Kyle,
This is the last I’ll post for a while, but I’ll tell you this. It seems you have bought into a lie. We don’t need more guilt in churches. God is not about guilt. The Holy Spirit convicts sinners and Christians. It is not our job to do that. In fact, we are to proclaim freedom to the captives, healing to the sick, and the foregiveness of sins. We don’t condemn people, and we ourselves need not feel condemned.
Fear and guilt suck as motivators. They can only sustain something for so long. The apostles did not evangelize out of fear or guilt. They were genuinely motivated by the love of God.
Yup I agree
I meant a guilt that is from sin on our own part. Sin that we see when we look into the bible and see how short we fall. guilt is vary dangerous though and not to be played with by man.
Which is worse being a little pushy while still presenting the gospel or screaming “Turn or Burn” on a college campus.
The problem that I have with the latter is that it’s a shotgun blast aimed in no particular direction. It takes little to no discernment. And people have all kinds of perconcieved notions about Chrisitianity. It is my opinion that this style of evangelism only goes to solidify those negative preconcieved notions about Christianity.
The argument that it’s the ultimate expression of Love to tell people they are going to hell doesn’t wash out in the real world. I’ve shown videos to unbelievers (112 people) with someone street preaching and asked the following questions.
ON A SCALE FROM 1 to 10 (1 being agree very little and 10 being agree very much) how would you answer the following questions.
1) The speaker effectively communicated his message? Median response 6
The speaker gave me information I previously did not know? Median answer 4
2) The speaker conveyed a positive message? Median response 2
3) The speaker appeared happy? Median response 1 (yes everyone answered 1)
4) The speaker conveyed an attractive message (you we’re curious to learn more) Median answer 3
5) The speaker appeared to have concern for those he had dialogue with? Median Answer 3
6) The speaker appeared to be very religious? Median answer 7
7) The speaker smiled alot? Median answer 2
9) I would enjoy listening to this speaker again? Median answer 3
10) I consider myself to be spiritual? (I attend a religious institution at least once a month) Median answer 4.
As I said previously it’s lazy evangelism and it doesn’t work.
Well if you are refering to “Bullhorn Evganlism” then I would tend to agree. But go to the markets and the coffe shops(mars hill of our day) and telling people of Christ is very effective. There is a time for personal evan and for just plain old preaching. Look at the very first sermon ever by Peter. He was really harsh and told them what they already knew that they killed Jesus. Then Paul only preached Christ and his gospel even to long time believers in Rome.
Also most of those question are pretty silly. Did he smile alot come on. I do have ever understand your point.
That’s gonna be pretty tough to calculate, seeing how he only mentions hell (Gehenna) 12 times, (and, interestingly, in reference to religious people 11 of the 12 times)…
Well I think the also count fire when he talks of the chaff and other things like that. Not for sure. i will have to try I find where that came from besides my brain. have a good night!
Ummm does this have to be an either/or?
Really I was a huge fan of the SImpson way back the first 100 eposodes… have nto watched it much since then… I guess I could ahve used Lost or Survior as more relevant and recent examples…
Yet, the point is what if you are being pushy while sitting on the couch and wathcing Lost or Survior with a friend who does nto know Jesus?
And I have done a little street preaching… it is not that effective as most people either just argue or they agree and walk away.
I do say i sort of enjoy Ray Comfort… something about a short Scottsman shouting at someone about the Law and Grace of God makes me laugh…
“Yer know yer gowing to hhhhellll… don’t yer!”
But, God haas a hway oot, He gave His Life fer yer!”
“RRRRRRREPENT, and no yer don’t neeed to dor it nowr… Yer can do it laterrr and not even on yer knees.”
Yep, it is like the Emglish no matter how dumb the thing is they state, sounds so smart!
LOL!
iggy
Well thanks for the vote of confidence.
The smiling question was relevant to the video. The people on the videos were asked to smile a lot while screaming “Turn or Burn” or “Repent or Burn in Hell”. It was an interesting to note that even though the person was smiling nobody noticed it because of the language and tone.
Iggy,
You need to get some sleep.