Ok, I had almost started writing this once, and then held off. Then, yesterday, we had a run-in with KJV-Only theology (Christianity’s equivalent of tinfoil-hat-ism), and it came back to mind. Then, today, we have an article about Mark Driscoll being crucified for saying something nice about a Catholic, which has devolved into a discussion in which a bunch of non-Catholics try to discuss what Catholics actually believe. So, this seems about as good a day as any to post this story…
I believe that there are a good number of folks within the flocks of Christianity that hold some pretty whacked-out beliefs regarding secondary issues (like KJVO). Generally, I treat these folks kind of like kind old Aunt Mildred (identity changed to protect the innocent) who wakes up every once in awhile and hides her dentures because the commies are trying to collect them for their plan to overthrow the world. I love them, but when they start on a rant, I smile and nod my head a bit, and think about when my best shot at a graceful exit will arrive.
So there’s this friend, who I will call “Bob”, who came to a saving relationship with Jesus several years ago. For all intents and purposes, he seems to earnestly want to follow the way of Jesus, and he is always seeking to know God better in the scriptures.
But Bob believes in aliens.
And Area 51.
And so every once in awhile, I will get a question along the lines of “Chris, I know you don’t believe in aliens, but if they exist – which is a possibility, based on the evidence we have – how do they fit into God’s plan of salvation?”
Mormons. Yeah, I know how to talk to them.
Catholics. Yeah, I know that if they start reading the Bible for themselves as part of a intra-faith Bible study (like BSF), that they will start to ask questions that will lead them toward God and away from the traditions of men.
Believers in alien life forms. Where do you start?
I’ve said:
1) From scripture, we know that angels, cherubim and seraphim have manifestations which have been seen by the human eye, and what some people have seen as “aliens” – if not a natural/man-made cause (which I believe to be the case 99.99% of the time) – could very well be angelic spirits (or demonic counterparts, I suppose).
2) If aliens really did exist, I am confident that they would fit into God’s plan in some fashion, as He is the Creator of all things. Whatever that part would be in His plan, though, I say, should wait for discussion until we actually establish contact with these “aliens”, but that we shouldn’t waste our time with such foolishness, otherwise.
These usually end the conversation, but it still comes up now and then. Except now, he will then toss in “what do you think about ghosts…?”
AAAAAAAaaaaargh!
109 Comments(+Add)
“a bunch of non-Catholics try to discuss what Catholics actually believe. ”
Like a bunch of non fundamentalists discussing what MacArthur believes? I am a non- Catholic who has done more research than 95% of “practicing Catholics so my non-Catholic status is irrelevant despite what you insinuated.
You don’t have to just discuss what the Catholic Church teaches, you just have to be able to read. It is clear, they don’t downplay it, we try to.
the challenge then becomes how to make the gospel relevant to aliens…
Wow, Chris…
This is like the Monty Python “and now for something completely different”.
The real question, of course, is if aliens are saved by faith or by works…
Every once in awhile I get into one of those discussions where someone will ask, “What if the salvation message wasn’t meant for only us? What if there’s another world in the universe where people/aliens sinned as well? What if Jesus died more than once for more than one world? What if there’s more than one universe? What if there’s another universe with a world with people just like us that God loves too??”
In the end we always decide that it doesn’t really matter if there is, but these conversations always come up again and again.
Yes – and it’s the “coming up again and again” that sometimes drives be batty…
Ghosts, alien sightings/abductions — these are unexplained things that people see and don’t know how interpret. I’m not going to poo-poo people that have something happen that they don’t know how to interpret. The “ghost” thing, in particular, isn’t a joke.
I tend to lean towards these events being spiritual in nature that we don’t know what to do with. I could tell you two specific “ghost” incidents — and if you want me to, I’ll relate them because they’re kind of interesting — but I don’t just chalk it up to a “ghost” but more to something happening in the spiritual realm that I don’t understand. I do know that there are various segments of Christianity that have downplayed and made belief and spirituality such a logical, apologetic’s dream that something like…oh…speaking in tongues or “ghosts” or something unexplained becomes…a joke.
There are unexplained things that go on in the spiritual world that don’t mean people who acknowledge it or admit to experiencing something are die-hard believers of Peretti’s fictional theory or whatever.
I read a book about UFO’s/aliens by Hugh Ross (Lights in the Sky and Little Green Men) that had some very interesting spiritual interpretations of what may be going on when people think they have had an experience with aliens or abductions. Obviously, these are theories, but I appreciated his refusal to just laugh at the people and instead point out that a matter of misinterpretation of a spiritual event doesn’t mean that something didn’t happen.
Since I’ve seen and photographed weird crop circles nearby, and since my grandfather had a spate of cow-mutilations when I was a child which left everyone shaken and not sure what was going on…look — there have been a large number of examples where people I trust or my family personally have experienced or seen something that we don’t know what category to place it in, beyond something going on in the spiritual realm that is beyond our understanding. And being undeniably certain that we did see or experience something, even if we don’t know how to explain it.
Now, since we have this can of worms opened, let’s veer into crypto-zoology: what about Big Foot?
You think I’m kidding, here. I’m not, actually. Lots of weird sightings or things happening on farms here in rural ND where people are reluctant to talk because of ridicule and are not wanting attention. I don’t go around saying “that’s stupid, here’s the logical explanation” when there isn’t always one. Instead, I just have to chalk it up to something I don’t understand and let it be that.
In the way that we apply logical explanations to everything, and give science and modernity’s tendency towards “what I can know with my senses is all there is” some kind of lordship over whatever happens, I think we do a disservice to what God does, and what is also part of reality. Our version of reality is quite small, in both understanding and dimension. The spiritual realm is real, and we don’t always have the reference point to interpret what we see that isn’t explained by our foolish trust in science and human knowledge.
For the record, I don’t believe in aliens. I do lean towards the idea of things happening when the spiritual realm (or other dimension, or whatever word you want to use) intersects with our limited comprehension and time/space. The idea of time/space, and how we are locked into a part of that compared to God and spiritual beings also plays a part in some of these incidents.
Julie,
FYI – I know missionaries and folks who live on the rez who have seen/heard pretty strange things regarding “spirits”, and I do not discount them. I see these a little bit differently (in terms of battle within the spiritual realm) than Bob’s recent query on haunted houses (which he believes in, in theory, based on late-night TV and the History Channel).
Sorry if I was a bit too dismissive…
Rick,
I will grant your point here. I have tried to stay out of the whole Catholic discussion, as I really don’t have much experience with it. I have met a few Catholics who I believe probably really know the Lord, but that’s as far as I would go.
However, a lot of us, myself included, come from varying degrees of Fundamentalism. I’ve been around a lot of Fundamentalists in my life. That is why it always cracks me up when people come here and say things like, “no one really is like that” when I can think of probably a dozen people I know off the top of my head.
Anyway, I don’t want to get this thread off track, as I’m sure it is going to be awesome. Personally, I don’t know how qualified I am to comment here, as I don’t know any aliens personally. That is, at least not to the best of my knowledge…
Just for laughs:
Questions about aliens and salvation are like asking what was God doing before the Creation….to which Luther replied:
“Cutting switches for the backsides of people who ask such questions”….
only he didn’t call them “people”.
Do we have to experence something to know what the truth is?
I will never experence being a cathloic the Lord willing, but I can still state things about it, as long as those things are true. If we could not discuss what we have not experenced then there would be almost no talking.
I really don’t get the point of this article though. What is the question?
Yes, nc, but to Julie’s point, not only are there a good number of people who have seen things that they cannot explain, but we should consider their questions seriously, and not just as modernists who consider that science has an answer to everything except religion…
Kyle,
The question is about the right way to approach questions that come from Christians (or non-Christians, for that matter) who believe in aliens/ghosts/etc. – whether from first-hand experience or not…
This is whay I would call an non issue. it has no directing effect on the gospel of Christ. I would tend to lean towards all the unexpalined stuff as the supernatural breaking into the natural. Then of cousre demons activly trying to decieve people. Applegate ring a bell. How about Chris Angel??
The concept of a “haunting”, though, is part of my two stories.
There is a fellow, friends with my father, who has, essentially, some kind of prankster ghost (I would use the word spirit, I suppose) that latched onto him when he purchased an old and used musical instrument a few years back. Ever since he took over ownership of the instrument, this “ghost” has been responsible for pranks and such. It even follows him to work at a radio station where, at first, his co-workers didn’t believe him until this “ghost” started turning on a vacuum cleaner in a closet without the benefit of the vacuum being plugged in. His co-workers got in the habit of yelling “Stop it!” when things would happen, and the “ghost” did, indeed, stop it. My father, in helping this man dig a ditch, had his feet pulled out from under him while leaning on a shovel. He ended up falling in the water and we all laughed, but he said “It was like someone grabbed my ankles and jerked my feet right out from under me.”
A historical museum in Devils Lake is known to have items from a woman in one of the display rooms where, if people touch or fiddle with those items, the “ghost” starts doing things. The curator has even found herself called up to the room to holler “Leave these people alone!”, to which the “ghost” complied.
I don’t know what to call it, but I think of “haunted” houses and such — haunted musical instruments? haunted historical items? — as having some sort of spirit(s) attached that for some reason became associated with the place or item. So, in essence, yes. There are haunted houses. There are haunted castles. There are places where you all of a sudden sense a presence — at least, it’s happened to me — where I just naturally start praying or saying Jesus’ name. And those stupid ghost hunter shows on TV? I sometimes think they are messing with something they have no idea of.
So my general reaction, instead of becoming exasperated by a guy like Bob (and I am prone to quick exasperation), is to really quiz him on why he interprets these things as he does, and offer him other ways of interpreting it instead of just “yeah, Bob, you’re just nuts.” I’m not saying you do that to Bob, but just for anyone reading this post…
As long as we’re on this topic, here’s something unique: my dad is a private pilot, and we often get to talking about the various “ghost” stories that are sort of well-known in the flying world. I’m not sure if there’s something about flying — how it affects your senses, that you’re up in the sky, the speeds, whatever — that makes such odd experiences happen in higher percentages, but there are some generally odd, documented, unexplainable mind-twisting stories from pilots of planes in all shapes and forms through the years. I tend to lean towards intersections of time/space/dimension. There’s a book out by Martin Caidin (a well-known pilot who has since died, I think) that looks a little cheesy, but has some interesting stories in it. It’s called “Ghosts of the Air” and is by no means a “Christian” book, nor do all of the stories ring “true” but there are quite a few documented ones involving things like log books, and intersections across time that leave me thinking — what? How could this possibly exist in my understanding of God’s plan for the world?
That last question, then, is the thing that really attracts or repels people to this topic: how does all of this possibly fit with how I have chosen to understand and interpret God, Christianity, the Bible, and God’s Kingdom?
So Julie, if you start to pray in Jesus’ name you are indicating you believe these “spirits” to be demons. Can a house be “haunted” by good angels as well? Can I purchase a guitar with a good angel in it or only demons? Where does Scripture ever teach that spirits can inhabit inanimate objects?
I personally believe all that stuff is spiritism and leads to superstition rather than a sound mind. Personal experience has no objective weight.
Julie
these unexplained things should not fit into how you intrept and understand the bible. The bible should expail and interpt the unexplained things. Remember King Saul went to a diviner to seek dead people, it worked and he got an answer. Also Balaam was a prohet, although wicked, who God words from the Lord and even his donkey was made to speak. So crazy stuff happened all throughout history. Kinda of a mute point it still does not effect the gospel. Unless you are in a cult, which people are, of alien worshippers.
True, perhaps, but since some of us have a truly curious and intellectual mulling streak, it isn’t always enough to just shrug our shoulders. I like to think about time and space and dimensions and what that means for Christians living in it, aware and not aware of it, and interpreting the Bible and experiences through it.
It may not be of interest or value to you, Kyle, but because this is an issue that is of interest or, likely, high distraction or a stumbling block for those otherwise interested in Christ, it is good to have a few Christians out there prepared to converse the topic on these terms.
In our culture of X-Files and SciFi and people naturally looking for spiritual answers, the belief in ghosts and aliens is extremely high. What’s your answer to the questions they bring to you? None? Christians say we have the answer (we do), but that implies it is for all questions. Believe me, this is a huge issue, a huge question, a huge problem for some people who want to believe. Can you even hold an interesting conversation with such a person and steer it in a Godly direction?
Those are really not the issue with the heathen, then are signs of the problem. They need the gospel then you should discuss this with them. There are way too many christians who think phycis, horoscopes and the like are all good and they do not see them as evil. This is where this stuff would come in. This is more of an apologectical topic, at least that is what I think.
It isn’t a moot point. I in now way implied any of this affected the Gospel. I fail to see your point here, other than perhaps you are a person who has no interest or curiosity in this subject and so you just shrug off those of us trying to find language to interpret what has happened in our lives that is unexplained as “cultish” or “alien worshippers”, etc.
In nothing I’ve said have I negated the Bible; on the contrary, I’ve repeatedly said, much as what you are attempting to say, that these are spiritual issues. Your comments are rather brutish and clumsy and I’m not sure what your point is. Do you sense I’m telling people to pull a Saul and divine the future? Join a cult?
For summation, Julie has said this: Strange things happen that aren’t explainable by humans. These are most likely spiritual issues, or from a spiritual realm, and we shouldn’t treat lightly such experiences that people talk about or are curious about. Spiritual issues are of utmost importance, and so we should develop a language in which to talk to people caught up in aliens and ghosts of dead people because they are being deceived into thinking that is exactly what it is, instead of it being a spiritual issue. Rather than saying “it doesn’t affect the Gospel” I would stress that anything that deals with the spiritual realm does very much affect the Gospel in that Satan can use it to deceive and keep people from truly knowing and believing in Christ; it is very much important that we are prepared to discuss such matters with people in a God-centered way.
Kyle,
Exactly how old are you? You seem to have the answer to everything, so I assume you are under the age of 20. I understand, I was younger once myself.
What?
What are you even saying? Why are you saying it after the comments I’ve made? “They need the gospel and you should discuss this with them” — didn’t I say that, that we need to be prepared to discuss this with them, in answer to you implying it didn’t affect the Gospel and wasn’t of great importance? If we need to discuss this with them, it is very likely of importance.
Your own comments are as confusing and indistinguishable as the “ghosts” I’ve talked about. I would ask that you state, clearly, plainly, what it is you are trying to say, Kyle, so that I feel like I can respond if it appears that you are not in agreement with, or having an issue with, something I’ve said. As it is, I have no idea what you’re trying to say.
I do agree with that. I do have little intrest in this superstitious stuff.
So if this is one of the many things that the devil uses, which it is, then what is the solution?
Also there are alien worshipping cults. Some worhsip aliens on Neptune others killed themselves to join aleins on a comet. This is all superstitious stuff. I do understand that the devil uses this stuff but there is still the same solution to this and all the other devices the devils uses.
Sorry if I am brutish but this is truly the stangest thing I have seen in a while. Even the church is over fascinated with superstitious things.
Phil, if you pull out the “how old are you” card, you’ll inevitably get 1 Timothy 4:12 thrown back at you in an attempt to Biblically support youthful ignorance, cockiness, and impudence.
You can always counter with the “respect your elders” card and warn of being eaten by a bear, but really, I don’t think the Bible was meant for such bickering.
I agree. Kyle, you sound like you know a lot, almost as much as if you were in Bible college or seminary. Wait about 10 years. You’ll be as ignorant as I am.
I always seem to have this conversation at least once every few months with a new Christian or even some old ones.
What I’ve been able to figure out from the Bible and then confimed observation in this world is that there are angels and demons. Being in the military, I can tell you that 95% of UFO experiences are explainable by natural or man-made phenomenon. Mostly aircraft that aren’t quite in the public eye yet. That’s all I’ll say on that. (they thought my aircraft had a UFO attatched to it when it first was put to military use; google “AWACS”)
The rest of the experiences don’t have good explanation, but I’m sure most can be chalked up to human spirituality, wanting ‘more’ to be out there, secular evolutionary dogma ingrained in the public mind, mistaken ‘identity’, and just plain susperstition. That’s with UFOs and Alien stuff. “Ghosts” are a whole other story I don’t know much about, though I suspect it’s something demonic in nature.
I read a wonderful book once, I highly recommend it to anyone who gets in to this debate often. It is called “Alien Intrusion: UFOs and the Evolution Connection”. Fantastic book which shows how the advent of the theory of Evolution by natural selection (and the more recent Neo-Darwinian Evolutionary theory) spurred the public on to thoughts of ‘alien life’, which then people started ’seeing’ all around them in the world. Kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy on ourselves. We see what we want to see.
Basically, I see the confusion behind UFOisms and Aliens to be not from God, but from the Deceiver. I’d just as well chalk it up to demonic activity and go back to preaching the Gospel to lost souls.
That is unless my home is blown up by aliens, then I’ll revise my theology. LOL.
If God created Aliens, it sucks for them, because Jesus died as a Man, not an Alien. He isn’t the “Alien’s” Kinsman Redeemer, is He? Besides, if all of Creation has been cursed by man’s sin, then those aliens suffer for our misdeeds. Too bad for them. Plus, if Aliens were visiting Earth, and messing with us, hurting us, being malicious (see the majority of abduction stories), wouldn’t it have been pertinent for God to tell us about them? He saw fit to warn us of Satan and his lackeys…, why not malicious aliens? Or maybe they ARE of Satan? Hmm. Read that book I mentioned, it’s really fun, if you have the time. I don’t think it’s a huge issue though.
I feel like the old Dana Carvey character from Saturday Night Live…LOL…”Could it be….SATAN?”
It all could be interactions with Angels and Demons, but since so many people believe in unprovable-no-evidence-for aliens because of secular humanist assumptions, they chalk it up to “aliens”, whereas 2000 years ago the populace would have said “it’s an Angel of the Lord!”.
Ah modernism.
(I used to be a HUGE UFO junkie before I was saved, btw, lol)
Joe
Really most of the time I don’t have a clear view of some of this stuff so I just argue or discuss. Like Socrates said you keep on talking you will end up at the truth, not that I think that is true but it does all you to think out of the box. Sorry if I never make sense. I will try to talk more time in spelling out what I am thinking.
i was just saying I would expect the heathen to be superstitious and follow after the devils tricks they are under his power. Apologectis never saves anyone, Calvin hated apologectis he thought it just muddy up the water, but they do play an important role of building up faith. Not sure if I cleared that up any?!?!?!
A superstition is not true. If this is a tool of the devil, however, it is true. True enough for Christians to take seriously. Only a Christian who has not had first-hand experience of such an experience would smugly write it off as mere “superstition” and suggest that it, like everything else in a smug world, is just a simple problem with a solution.
“Ba da bing! Problem solved! Silly superstitions!”
Kyle, if you’ve seen or experience some of the things I and other Christians have, you’d be far less flippant. This isn’t about the surface ridiculousness of alien cults (which I am aware of, since I was in existence for the whole Hale-Bopp and Heaven’s Gate mess), but is instead about what I said in my summary: something real, disguised as something else, used by the devil, and should be of “interest” and concern for Christians.
What are you fascinated with? Why do you lump this as “superstitious”? What’s your response when faced with a person possibly demon-possessed? A Spurgeon sermon? A suggestion that it’s all superstitious? What’s your response to a person who is living in a house with some kind of spirit present? Shrug your shoulders? Go over and pray? Write if off as silly superstitions?
Julie,
Yes, I feel like I’ve gotten dumber since I hit 30 in a lot of ways.
I’m not trying to be disrespectful or anything. I work with college students, and as far as I can tell, know one knows more than college students.
Interesting comments, Julie. I love hearing ghost/alien/UFO stories. There’s something fascinating about the unexplainable.
I know there’s spiritual warfare going on that we can’t see. But is all of it spiritual warfare? What is it with random ghosts that get attached to things?
Reminds me of story a lady told me once about a house she used to live in was right next to a grave yard. There were 2 graves where 2 very young children were buried. She began putting flowers on their graves on their birthdays every year, and after that had the “ghosts”(?) of 2 young children following her, coming in her house, sitting on her bed while she was in it, etc. It sounded kind of sweet, but very creepy. That can’t be spiritual warfare, can it? Why are there random spirits like this?
Oh well. Guess I’ll never know.
You guys should hear some of the stories my missionary friends from a remote place in the Philippines have about demonic possessions and hauntings. Seems like the more remote the place, the easier it is for those things to manifest in the enviroment.
It’s out there, it isn’t ’superstition’. It’s in the Bible, it happens, and “Aliens Abductions and UFOs” play a part in that I think.
Joe
Merry, I think about those stray “ghosts” too…
Could it be that all Demons aren’t…fully evil? Some perhaps have rebelled against rebelling (I know how this sounds LOL) and decided to be nice, or like in the story about the musicical instrument ghost playing pranks, just having fun??
Are spiritual beings so different from us? Maybe they just want to ‘play nice’ or have fun too sometimes?
Some are just mean and evil, I hear, though.
Perhaps all demons aren’t so polarized to do horribly evil demonic things though?
Joe
Who cares about the aliens or ghosts…I want to know if anyone around here believes we REALLY landed on the moon!
If the aliens land here without the proper documentation…does that make them “illegal aliens?”
Chris L,
I think “aliens” and UFO’s are actually a fun secondary topic… sort of like talking sports for some of you.
I would send “Bob” to Chuck Missler’s ministry that seems to focus on that niche.
Chuck is pretty solid on the Bible… I disagree on the Rapture but then he is Calvary Chapel… and that is why i am no longer CC.
He has though a view that is a bit out there but for someone who needs to “come down to earth” in their UFO/George Noory addiction, he is great. He view is that the Nephilim are still with us and that there is a demonic conspiracy in which includes hybrids … Now, I know that sounds wacko, but I am using this wacko to get him to listen to other truths in scripture… and Chuck has worked for NASA and some other high mucky mucky positions that he can speak both from the technical points and the biblical…
Again I don’t agree with all his stuff, but if it can get “Bob” to get more into the bible and Jesus… I see that as a good thing.
Of course this is not all Chuck talks about… but he has some of the best material backing the “Fallen angel” scenario in Genesis 6.
Now again, I am not going to debate Genesis 6 as i can do both sides equally well… and have no solid opinion that either are wrong or right but both are interesting and agree that there is something just weird in that passage.
be blessed,
iggy
Joe C, I never thought about that. I always thought demons were up to evil deeds!
The thing is, that God blessed(?) humans with incredibly wild imaginations, and we can come up with some outrageous stuff, LOL!
Keith, were you aware that 7% of Americans believe that Elvis is still alive? LOL that was random. Yes, I believe people actually landed on the moon, although there is some pretty fantastic evidence that it was a hoax!
YES!
Iggy mentioned the Nephilim!
A Nephilim, Illuminati, and Trilateral Commission mention on the blog all in one week!
The nut bar trifecta is complete!!!
All I’m gonna say is once again…read Alien Intrusion: UFOs and the Evolution Connection.
It’s dynoMIIIIITE!
Wow lol
Joe
North Dakota is fairly unpopulated, and it’s hard to meet anyone who hasn’t, after being pressed to share, had quite a few creepy or strange things happen that they can’t explain. I think you have a point there, as well as how the devil obviously knows what attracts/frightens people, and uses that. People interested or obsessed with aliens? Use that to ensnare them.
The thing about the prankster or “friendly” ghosts…I just don’t know.
Joe C, some of the stuff you said about the theory of evolution and how people began seeing aliens en masse after that — the book I mentioned, the one by Hugh Ross, Kenneth Samples and Mark Clark — I think they talked about that in it. It sounds familiar. It’s a good and interesting book to read, though it’s about aliens/UFO’s and not ghosts. Each writer comes at the topic differently, pointing out the impossibility or unlikeliness of aliens, occultic connections, etc. I think for someone curious about this, or if you have a Christian friend who’s wrapped up in this, the book would be a good gift.
The ghost thing…that’s a puzzler for me, Merry. I just don’t know.
I will just drop this one and leave it too you guys. I have personally experincced wierd and unexpalinable things. And I have seen what it can do to christians, I have a lot of charismatic friends, who find demons and the supernatural behind every door and every porblem.
The one solution to all of this is of course the gospel. So I will stay out of this one enoy.
Just so you know me
I am
David Kyle Christner II
25
born in PHX, AZ
baptized at 13
fell a way at 17 because of bitterness to God
drugs, drugs and more drugs for about 4-5 years.
rehab, Teen Challenge talk some crazy stuff by word of faith teacher, also was employed there for 2-3 years
Went to a bible study heard Ro 9 in it. It flipped my world upside down. Ever since then calvinist and proud.
Hope to one day become involved in full time ministry some way.
Currently talking mail course from Moody.
Any thing else you would like to know about me don’t be afraid to ask. We are brother and sisters and most of the time we don’t even act like friends.
UFO… by Larry Norman
I think IF these do exist it has to do with multi-dimensions and demonic/angelic interactions with out dimension… such as Gen 6 or 2 Kings 2.
I am not convinced it is from other planets…
iggy
At least the Nephilim are biblical… LOL!
iggy
Hmmm. Sounds preachy, but…boast in Christ and not in your following of a man-made structure for understanding Christianity.
Seriously. Don’t take pride in being a Calvinist. It’s going to bring out the worst. You are not following Calvin, but Christ. Sometimes, when we “come out of” or “escape” from a teaching (in your case, charismatics) we tend to over-correct in the opposite direction. Remember, when you go in a skid while driving, over-correction means you’re going to hit the ditch and roll your car.
Mild side-track. Back to ghosts and aliens.
Kyle,
Please don’t be offended at my asking your age. I assumed from your answers your were a certain age. I certainly do appreciate your zeal.
One thing I would caution regarding your Charismatic friends. I think a lot people do tend to go too far, but please don’t shut off the possibility of God still working in supernatural ways. The only reason there’s counterfeit is because there’s real.
Oh yeah I believe in the supernatural! I have seen some stuff. God will still heal ect… I really thought W. Grudem put it into prespective for me. That was the first time I ever heard of anyone being a charismatic christian. Also I will say this calvinism is just another word for biblical christiany(LOL)! It is like saying sheep, child, son, daughter, elect, beloved of the Lord intsead of saying christians. The only thing I will boast in is the cross of Christ, thank you for the correction.
I meant charismatic calvinist(w.grudem)
Nephillim are what we get all our “Pantheon of the Gods” and Hercules stories from. “Strong men of old, of renown”.
Just a side note on “Nephillim”.
I’m telling you though, Military aircraft will screw with unknowning public big time.
I suspect the rest is demonic/angelic activity that stands outside our understanding of time/space.
Like I said, with our very “scientific”(and I use this term loosely) culture, people are more willing to cry “ALIENS!!” rather than “ANGELS!”. It’s just the product of the phase of history we live in. 2000 years ago we’d be having talks about “UFA” sightings. LOL.
Joe
It is all superstition, based upon subjective sensory experience about which the New Testament is silent, so if you believe this stuff, and I do not, whatever you decide to use as relevant conversation is all conjecture.
The deepest demon activity happens in clandestine terms and not allowing people to discern their presence. Moreover, they come as angels (messengers) of light. Stay away from aliens and spiritism and all other forms of occult interest. Demon possession is in a different catagory.
I don’t think so Rick, it’s all part of the same old tricks by Satan. UFOs are real, and mostly are military aircraft, this is an USAF Fact we’re all taught in the service.
Satan plays off the publics innocence and ignorance though, and I don’t doubt that some experiences are actual demonic encounters, just like ones in the Bible.
This whole topic serves to point out how little we really understand, or, how limited we are in how to interpret what’s real with the language we have or are willing to have.
Nephilim.
Angels and demons.
Fallen beings.
Dimensions.
Time/space.
“Aliens.”
The spirit world.
“Ghosts.”
There’s a lot we can’t know yet.
I know people made fun of Pat Robertson’s (I think it was him) explanation regarding how a person is made of body, mind and spirit*, and how he used that to explain why some people were “psychic” in that they had turned their attention and focus on a spiritual realm. Oddly, he didn’t condemn psychics (I wish I could locate the video, but I haven’t yet) but merely said they were more attuned in a different way. Not sure what I think about his take on that…
However, I think he has touched on something in that we too often don’t remember or admit that we are spiritual beings and even though we have generally shut that off as we live in a body (i.e. physical) world and rely more upon physical or logical input, there is a counterpart to our spiritual make-up just as there is a physical world for our physical bodies. These spiritual things are as real, but we don’t know how to understand them, since we are not really dwelling in a spiritual realm. We are in this dimension only.
We are going to be attracted and curious about these things because it resonates with our spiritual make-up. This is why it is such a successful deception. It can’t really be explained, yet we know there is something there. So, we start picking around trying to find an explanation or a belief that accommodates it. Animistic religions might be an example of trying to find explanations that can be lived with — well, just about any false religion or cult, really.
I suppose one could say Christians have done the same thing. I, of course, disagree.
*I realize that by using the three words body, mind and spirit, I am going to raise the ire of a huge chunk of people who will assume I also meditate, levitate, and practice yoga. Whatever.
My brother’s 7th grade teacher (at a Christian school) was obsessed with UFO’s and taught(?) about it in science class most of the year. She was also obsessed with star patterns, the history of stars, and at a chapel in 1999 explained to us how she’d managed to figure out that Jesus was born on September 11. It was a long, complicated process (it took her over an hour to explain) and I can’t remember how she came to that particular date, but it stuck in my mind forever. (She came back to chapel in late 2001 and explained this all over again, causing pandemonium.)
Anyway, she had a strange obsession with UFO’s and claimed that she constantly saw stange glowing disk-like shapes in the sky. I often wonder if she had cataracs. Did I mention she was the principle’s wife? I thought she was hilarious.
I think, Rick, your absolutist stance is as much danger as someone all nuts about spiritualism: it’s the same deception. It’s similar to what I said to Kyle: over-correction is just as bad.
September 11 was Rosh Hashana during the year of a major supernova. Maybe.
Julie – there is no objective information much less objective explanations for what some people say they experience. So waht’s the point. At the end of the day it is just spiritual daydreaming with no productive essence and at worst I have seen people mesh Christianity with spiritism.
Did it ever occur to anyone that the subject itself is a deception of the enemy who obliges the discussion with some metaphysical experiences designed to produce interest in the mercurial rather than the Word.
Yes, I am very dangerous…
Yeah it could be that too, Rick.
There’s no actual empirical evidence for Aliens, that’s why I find it so ridiculous for our culture to latch on to ‘other spirits/spiritualism’ with “Aliens and UFOS” rather than the reality of God, Angels, and Demons.
I’m sure it’s a big conspiracy though, you know like how they’re changing the Bible to destroy the purity of the Inspired Holy King James Bible.
LOL
Joe
Please refer to my comments to Kyle regarding why it might be necessary to at least be able to talk to someone on the matter. That’s the point.
I could probably use this statement in the future during any number of discussions on this site, should I feel the need to be the devil’s advocate. Do you really want to hold to this in all areas of Christian life, or just in this one case, to refute what’s been said here? Is this an across-the-board statement for you as a Christian? Careful…
You’re leaning into that modernist way of thinking in which all things are objective, provable, logical, and scientific. To which I answer: I disagree. And I think for you, as a Christian, if you really thought about it and carried this to the fullest extent in all areas of your Christian life, might find yourself not in full agreement, either.
Rick, why couldn’t it have been a supernaturally created Star, by God, for the very purpose of Christ’s advent?
I’m not saying you’re doing this on purpose, but sometimes we always try to find a physical explanation for everything. I’m not saying you even believe the Star of Beth. had to be a natural phenom, I’m just saying stuff doesn’t always need to be explained by natural circumstances.
Like Creation, or Science.
Joe
Did it ever occur to anyone that just about 80 percent of the discussions we have on this blog and any number of Christians are having at any given time are a deception of the enemy, which obliges the discussion with heavy doses of personal interpretation of scripture or man-based theological constructs designed to produce an interest in what is one person’s “sure and obviously correct” understanding of Christianity?
If it is not objective or provable it then is nothing more than each person’s subjective musings. I have thought about it as a Christian, and I reject it. I wait for your Scriptural support for that which has been put forth here.
God made Science, aka “Knowledge”, so there doesn’t need to be conflict. Science should be Truth and never conflict with what God has Said. I guess it all depends on your starting assumptions.
“Did it ever occur to anyone that just about 80 percent of the discussions we have on this blog and any number of Christians are having at any given time are a deception of the enemy, which obliges the discussion with heavy doses of personal interpretation of scripture or man-based theological constructs designed to produce an interest in what is one person’s “sure and obviously correct†understanding of Christianity? ”
That view comes from an objective presupposition that assumes an objective observation in and of itself. It suggests that nothing can be “sure and obviously correct” when it comes to an understanding of Christianity. If uncertainty is the only certainty then we labor in vain.
All those demons and demonic posessions, and insane-like visions of heavens and angels is my Scriptural support for ‘weird sightings’.
Joe
A lot of the things you have written are neither objective nor provable — just as the rest of us — yet the fact that it is subjective (or, as I prefer to think of it in regards to the topic at hand, a real incident in which I am not sure how to interpret or describe it) does not negate it. I seriously doubt that, from this point on, you are going to only write or rely upon provable things. Have fun with that, as a Christian. You have a fine and enviable faith, one based on things that are objective and provable. Let me know how that works for you. My faith often is a leap into things not proven, things not “objective.” You are extremely modernist in your thinking. We have very little common language in which to talk about anything, as I’ve been discovering, because I am mildly modernist at best. The tangible, provable, literal, sense-able, “objective” (a term open to interpretation based on who deems what objective within their own scaffolding of thought, which makes something rather un-objective and makes me think that there are, actually, few objective things) things are not as weighty to me.
Scriptural support. At what point in all my comments in which I, and others, have said “I don’t know, I don’t understand” does it imply that I have some kind of answer? Scriptural support? For demon possession? For spiritual warfare? For a spiritual realm of demons and angels intersecting with our realm? I don’t know…how about Genesis through Revelation?
Really, Rick, what’s your point?
Do you think I’m in danger of seeing aliens as really being aliens? Ghosts as my grandma who wants to say hi and give me cookies from the afterlife? All I’ve said, as I’ve summed up twice so far, is that there are things in the spiritual realm happening that we don’t know how to interpret and so we end up with people obsessed with aliens and “ghosts.”
Joe – Visions do not equal Scripture. There are people who SAW aliens who told them about Jesus from another planet. Scientology, Mormonism, and many other cults are based upon subjective experiences and visions, and there are many who mesh UFO sighting with Christianity.
All of it – humbug. If real then nothing less than a deception. Looking unto Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith.
Julie – my point is that we should not dabble or be interested in the occult. Spirits, ghosts, UFOs, fortune tellers, and all the rest should be avoided by Christians. You surely have come across the meshing of Christianity and spiritism in Central America as have I, it is a deception and something about which we should not attempt to understand.
It is evil and with that general understanding let us be content. I do not believe guitars can be demonized, but I do believe people’s suggested subconscious can be tampered with and with that see certain events as a spirtual reality. If aliens do exist they should carry no weight in our thoughts or Spiritual journey. At worst those manifestations are preparing the world for a final deception.
The reason we have this blog and ODM’s and all these other Christians voicing disagreement over various issues is that there are some things that are objective, or not open for subjective interpretation (i.e. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, died to save us from our sins, etc.), and there are some things we humans do not agree upon, making it seem as if, indeed, there are subjective interpretations of the Bible possible.
My comment doesn’t assume that nothing can be sure or obviously correct; I left room for about 20 percent that can, as I see it (i.e. “80 percent of the discussions on this blog…”). For some reason, on other topics of discussion (oh, say, your view on Calvinistic interpretations of the Bible), you’ll join in whether they are of the 20 percent undeniable or the 80 percent subjective. Yet here, on a topic you’ve made your mind up on (subjectively), the line is drawn and there’s no point in having a discussion on something that could possibly be subjective.
Nope. Not going to respond to you anymore.
Your first line is a real doozy, by the way. Linguistic gymnastics are always painful for the reader.
Rick…I was saying VISIONS in the BIBLE. Not some crackpots story. The amazing sightings and visions in the Bible is my Scriptural support.
I was talking of the Angels, Demons, Posessions, and visions of heaven, God, and all of that, which is in the Bible.
It happens in the Bible, and supernatural stuff from the enemy still happens today, just like things from God still hapen today.
I don’t know why you have such a problem with all of this, do you believe in modern day miracles?
Joe
(This came in before my last comment was posted)
I have a friend who is a well-known tarot card reader, among other things. I do not avoid her. In fact, I pray for her and spend time with her and try to be a light in what is darkness.
Is that really what you want to say? That such people should be avoided by Christians? What other such people should we also avoid? Hookers? Thieves? What sins of people should we not worry so much about?
I care very much about my friend. And I’m not going to avoid her. She is very much in my regular prayers. The devil is using this as a huge deception now, and Christians should be prepared with a response to people who need one.
Not every moment is a Joseph/Potiphar’s wife moment, a moment of running from evil. Sometimes we need people to stand in the gap and do the work head-on. So you go on and avoid such people, and avoid any kind of participation in such conversations, avoid thinking about what God or what the devil is doing in this area — you go be safe. You dismiss this entire thing as you have. I won’t. Because I’m not going to leave such people in the dark.
Well, I guess my dad’s a liar, then. I’ll surely take your word and belief on the matter over his.
No, actually. I won’t.
I believe you’re wrong, because you can’t see any way to interpret such an incident; you have very aptly given proof to what I am saying about our limited language and what we choose to believe as a way to integrate that into our reality.
You have misrepresented my position entirely. I did not say avoid people, I said avoid interest in such things. People in darkness need the light, not an authoritative discourse about their bondage.
Joe – the visions and supernatural events recorded in the Bible are God’s hsitorical Word. Things that people claim they saw or experienced hold no weight except to themselves and those who believe them. In the end, they usually are counter productive to any substantive Spiritual growth. But they do draw plenty of interest for some reason.
If they happened then, why not now? I know that most of those people are liars. But demons are out there, and they screw with us. And maybe it’s just as dangerous for you not to believe these things occur?
I’m not really going to argue about this anylonger. You have your beliefs and I have mine. I’m not obsessed or even very interested in this subject, I just like to have a Biblical answers to give to those who ask about the subject. And I believe I do have a Biblical answer. Thanks for the talk.
Love,
Joe
PS, and that Biblical answer does not involve telling people to go investigate UFOs and get distracted from presuing Christ.
Rather, I use it as a ’springboard’ to get someone to Follow Jesus instead of crazy UFO stories and doctrines of demons.
Joe
Agreed.
sweet…Rick agreed with me. *honored* =)~
No, Joe, you agreed with me. Remember that!
Yes sir.
I love that military talk, it’s so…uh…Pauline!
Just sayin’…
Sayin what?
THEM WERE SOME ALIENS SHUCKS!
Really though, Chris was trying to support was I was saying earlier, I think.
Joe
When you read Ezekiel’s description of his vision, it does match a number of UFO descriptions (this is the one that “Bob” has tossed my way a couple times) – thus my explanation that it could be angelic, as well…
That is very dangerous. God does and has given some men and women of God visions, but the UFO variety are unidentified as per their title. Ezekiel’s vision was identified by the context as angelic. The “I saw something I did not understand” variety should be given no attention, they are meaningless and do not edify but only elicit conjecture which isn’t God’s way.
Look at the different possible explanations already offered. Angels, demons, aliens, ghosts, spirits, all uselss conjectures that many times lead to eroneous theology and extreme subjectivism. If God grants a holy vision to a Godly Christian it is for his edification and no one elses.
There have been many apparitions of Mary which many people give great credibility to, we need not ever fall into those traps. The Jews seek a sign, but the sign of the resurrection is our standard. A little thing affects our senses, an undercooked potato, a bit of bad beef, (Scrooge). We believe UFOs as aliens and even surmise why they come to less populated areas. What?
Please, we venture into dangerous waters when we give credibility to things seen with the eyes that Scripture does not address. We are then at the mercy of our own explanations which are wide and varied.
No comment.
Even Satan can appear as an angel of light. We must test everything by scripture. Experiences come and go throughout all of our lives, but the word of God will stand forever.
Kyle, don’t let them get under your skin! I for one do know everything. =) (and I’m much older than 18)
Guy: Chris, when I was working on the Rez, there were a number of things that went on, particularly with what they call “skin dancers”…(explains some really weird goings on with no natural explanation)…I was at a loss what to say the next morning.
Me: Sorry – I can’t give credibility to things seen with the eyes that Scripture does not address. Just pretend you were dreaming, I guess…
Guy: OK… thanks for helping me out there…
“I can’t give credibility to things seen with the eyes that Scripture does not address.”
Things that no one understands. That is an incongruent example. So where do UFOs etc. fit into our Christian lives and theology? What should we believe about them? How do they edify and build us up in our faith? And who can say difinitively they actually exist?
An intangible and ethereal realm that has no productive purpose but can lend itself to theological error. These are National Enquirer subjects, surely not something we teach in Sunday School. Let us rest in the written revelation, enhanced by God’s Spirit, and let us leave those things which cannot be substantiated and that do not serve Christ alone.
And just so no one will believe that I do not believe in the supernatural within the body of Christ here is a message on ecstasy (trance) as in the book of Acts. Notice the correlation between these and prayer. These are the visons that God gives to His people when they seek His face with unusual prayer and fasting.
http://judahslion.blogspot.com/2007/01/ecstasy-three-times-in-new-testament.html
No one is trying to get under anyone’s skin, I don’t think.
Regarding the idea that it is best to ignore things we see or experience but do not understand (as Chris aptly pointed out in his excellent fake conversation), that is rather bad advice. Should we not listen if someone were to approach us about this? Should we blow them off? “I’m sorry, this is dangerous and doesn’t edify. Let’s talk about sanctification instead, even if that isn’t what you came to me to talk about.”
Really.
Please give me definitive scripture in which God grants holy visions only for that person and no one else.
That would seem to really cut out a lot of vision-filled scripture, since writing it down for the millions of believers who would later read it would present a problem. We’d have the Clif Notes version of the Bible.
If your fear is that we give credibility to something that may really be happening…what is this credibility? Giving the devil more power than he previously had? Acknowledging that things may occur that we can’t explain? Trying to not deny that there are things happening?
Does scripture address specifically everything we face in life, then? Does lack of specific mention mean lack of credibility, or lack of it being any less real? Do you really think scripture does not address these spiritual and unexplainable-by-human-thought incidents?
If anything, the scriptures are packed with supernatural events and occurrences that are not explained by human logic, science, or our understanding.
Like the book of Revelations, for example. Are we allowed to speculate on that? That’s a bit of a subjective book, isn’t it? Should we refrain from talking about anything the Bible presents that we can’t know for sure and therefore is wrapped in each person’s subjective understanding? The idea to shun and not deal with such things because “scripture doesn’t address them” is absolutely ludicrous. If we applied that kind of specificity to all areas of our lives, we’d be in quite a place of anarchy.
What is the fear of talking about it? Why do you equate it with Mary-worship or seeking signs for everything, or some other false belief or following? Heads in the sand do not a strong theology make.
Bad beef aside (yes, I am familiar with The Christmas Carol), weird stuff happens in this world. It does. All of sudden, though, it is implied that some stuff we just don’t waste our time talking about because, by even talking or theorizing, we are in danger.
I agree. And I can’t see that anything I’ve said, up to this point, has indicated otherwise. And because I agree, I see this as a non-joke topic, which is why I responded right away. I see it as serious; I know enough people lost in trying to find a way to explain things that I can’t merely ignore the opportunity to engage them and direct the conversation to higher ground.
When faced with a moment where I know something is happening in the spiritual realm, I want to not fret about the explanation having already worked that out in other times. I want to be at a place where I know that if things are happening that I don’t understand, instead of being fearful, I only need call on Jesus. I don’t want to be like the people Kyle talked about, who see a demon behind every corner. Conversely, I don’t want to just shrug it off or take adhere to a policy of avoiding the topic altogether. That is as foolish as the former, and not the way of someone suited up in God’s armor.
I get the sense that you think I’m equating these experiences with God-given vision, which is not what I’m saying. I’m pointing out that there are demons and spirits at work and that people who have such an experience may come to a Christian and want to talk about it. In no way am I suggesting that we should equate an “alien visit” with direction from God.
If the problem is that I’ve “wasted” time speculating and talking about it…well. I think we’ve all had our moments of wasting time talking about nothing. Please don’t claim otherwise.
(Yes. I broke my word. I came back. And responded. Lo siento mucho.)
Joe said, “I’m telling you though, Military aircraft will screw with unknowning public big time.”
We live about 15 miles (as the crow flies) from the space center, Patrick AFB(where we do our shopping), and Cape Canaveral AFB(this is where most the spy satellites are launched from). I’ve experienced some incredible sites from my vantage point and to the uninitiated it can be a bit scary at times. It would be very easy to see how one could get caught up in various conspiracies and UFOlogy, just by watching what our government does with our tax bucks!
I never get bored watching it all happen……but I will say most times the dauchunds don’t care for most of it!
Peace.
Ok, WOW I’ve been out with the fam all night celebrating my wife’s birthday and the end of the semester. This thread is hilarious. Julie, I’d say I love you but that would be inappropriate, so I’ll say that I really really like you and the way that you doggedly pursue the argument. Excellent points.
OH and I dated a KJV only girl in college. I’m pretty sure her mom and dad were aliens.
Sorry I am late to this thread, looks interesting. What is the discussion on? The existance of spiritual beings or on our Biblical instructions to interact with them.
Be not forgetful to entertain strangers; for thereby some have enertained angels unawares (Hebrews 13:2 KJV).
This verse says that a Christian has a ministering spirit sent to them by God. What have you done with yours, Rick?
But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my tight hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? (Hebrews 1:13,14 KJV)
For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve, Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Ceaser: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee (Acts 27:23,24 KJV).
How did Paul know the angel was standing by him and the rest of the people on the ship couldn’t see him. The angel even spoke to Paul. Chris L, Julie, Joe C, Iggy, Kyle, Rick, interesting comments. What are you suppose to do when your shadow moves and you do not?
F Whittenburg
“Be not forgetful to entertain strangers; for thereby some have enertained angels unawares (Hebrews 13:2 KJV).
This verse says that a Christian has a ministering spirit sent to them by God. What have you done with yours, Rick?”
Huh?
“What are you suppose to do when your shadow moves and you do not?”
Huh…huh???
I am way outa my league…
You freak me out F….
LOL
Scotty…
Being in the military, I’ve seen some scary stuff, some increddible pieces of technology. There’s a lot out there that accounts for UFO sightings. But not all of them.
Joe
This verse says that a Christian has a ministering spirit sent to them by God. What have you done with yours, Rick?
But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? (Hebrews 1:13,14 KJV)
Is this better Rick?
F Whittenburg
Put down the bong… or whatever you have been drinking…
iggy
Not that I do those things… I might have before, but now I drink a pint of Guinness and usually go to sleep..
Hello Inquisitor,
” Kyle, don’t let them get under your skin! I for one do know everything. =) (and I’m much older than 18)”
I guess you are the one I should be asking questions too. I would value your wise input on my previous two posts.
F Whittenburg
F Whittenburg,
If you really want to talk about this I would be glad to share what know and have experienced… But I do not want to go all Bob Larson on people here so prefer to do it not so public…
iggy
Behold, Jesus is coming as an identified flying “object” for even those who pierced him will wail. The baby who we celebrate out of season grew as a man and was revealed as the Creator and Savior. We are most grateful, Lord Jesus, for we did not want you, we did not seek you, and we surely did not realize who You were and why You came.
But now we look for You and You alone, and through all of the stuff of this life, we love Your appearing.
Happy Birthday, Jesus. We will give gifts to each other because there is only one thing you desire…our whole hearts. Again by faith we bow down and present our whole hearts before You.
Truth, truth. Amen Chorus, amen.
Joe
For what it is worth, my best friend in jr. high, her dad was involved with project blue book. He assured me that everyone on the team wanted nothing more than to see/document a UFO, and with out exception every event they investigated was explained, and every person who reported something was a little off. Sometimes way off. He was very sad when it ended because he really wanted to believe in aliens. He was a great christain and very invovled at church.
Bob Larson?!?! Is he still around?!?! Haven’t heard about him in…..20 years?
Bob Larson has gone into public exorcisms… I think he is a sad story…
He was a guy with lots of potential for good who I think was taken in by the money god. I am not going to go so far as to say he is not saved… why would I, but I think after really looking into him, he is a slick operation on the level of Robert Tilton (Pastor Gas to some).
He is currently working on a TV show like Dr Phil, only exorcism demons on the air. He is taking applications and everything.
I truly want to believe he is doing good and some of the stories sound legit… yet I have known cultists to heal in the Name of Jesus… such as Elizabeth Clare Prophet (my wife and family were into her for a while until they met her and decided she was pure evil). She healed in the Name of Jesus, but her Jesus was not the real one… but the demons would make the person feel better or release the person in exchange for their soul… to draw them deeper into that cult. (CUT)
I was a big fan of Bob Larson in the 80’s and even supported him… but after he began doing cruises and other things while still begging for more money, I began to see him in a different light.
iggy
I’ve got two of Larson’s books on the cults, Iggy, good books to have. But, you’re right, it is sad. I’m still on his mailing list, I don’t even bother to open the envelopes.
I have one of Bob’s “cults” books. I could not afford Walter Martin’s at the time but Bob’s was pretty good and fair.
I still want to believe in Bob… but… I also want to believe in Mike Warnke and Lauran Stratford…. but…
iggy
Mike Warnke…man does that name bring up memories.
Bob Larson, too…
I’d almost completely forgotten about the whole backmasking fear-mongering of the 80’s…
Play another one bites the dust backwards and you get LSD! LSD! LSD! You know I realized something that entire movement is the forefathers of Ken and the conspiracy driven, poorly researched ODM’s
“You know I realized something that entire movement is the forefathers of Ken and the conspiracy driven, poorly researched ODM’s”
Absolutely! Excellent, Joe, couldn’t have said it better!
Saw Warnke, in person when he spoke at my brother’s church.
It all made me feel kinda creepy….can’t explain it.
He is currently working on a TV show like Dr Phil, only exorcism demons on the air. He is taking applications and everything.
Oh, yeah. That is deffinitely an underserved demographic…..
Mike Warnke too?!? This is better than my high school reunion. Wasn’t he the Satan Seller? I read his book, enjoyed it, and thought he was very funny. Never heard what happened to him.
Did you hear Huckabee explaining that if you run his commercial backwards you can hear “Paul is dead?”
I loved Mike Warnke also… he made me feel normal… LOL!
He was found out to be a fraud and was outed as such… he gave a “so-so” apology and is back in business…
To read more on it just Google Jon Trott and Mike Warnke…
iggy