The starting caveats: I don’t think drinking alcohol is a sin. I don’t think dancing is a sin. I think both are things that, without self-control (as is the case with much in life), can go far past the two prior statements I’ve just made and become a very huge problem.
——————
In reading a post at Slice about the Mars Hill Red Hot Bash, I can only say, with great theological eloquence, that I don’t get it. A dance and champagne bar at a church? I wondered if I was, perhaps, misunderstanding what MHC Ballard Campus was: is it, indeed, a church? Or some kind of Christian rec center of sorts?
Perhaps I’m too rural farm girl. I was recently at a Christmas party with very fine Christian people who were sipping on martinis and wine and talking about all kinds of exotic drinks and discussing fine literature, and though I didn’t feel uncomfortable and although I understand this was a private party not associated with a church function, I realized I carry around a kind sterile and winter-like mindset that makes reading about a party at a church, such as the Red Hot Bash, seem completely bizarre. Perhaps it’s an over-riding guilt and isolation issue that makes people from my background live rather strict lives which, in all honesty, don’t seem a bit deprived in any historical sense of the word but, in comparison with less rural churches having dances and parties and all kinds of get-togethers at church….well. We have meals after church, at most, sitting around talking with each other.
I once read about a singles dance at a church, and remember thinking it was the weirdest thing I’d ever heard of. Why would you have a dance at a church? I thought at the time. What is the point of a singles dance? You don’t get to know people well at a dance. Wouldn’t a different kind of setting be better? Can’t you go to a dance anywhere? What is the benefit of having the dance under the umbrella of a church? Less groping?
So, I start with thinking of definitions. What is the church? Is it the building, or the body? Is the building a place where the body meets for worship only, or is it a kind of general, all-purpose center where the real church, the body, can interact in both social and spiritual ways? Is holding anything in a church in order to bring people into the building little more than pragmatism, some sort of Christian capitalism that deals in humans instead of money?
Pleasure is a strange thing. I often read of the feasts in the Bible, the grand wedding celebrations and suppers and banquets, and wonder about how different my view of the proper way of having church is. Or the proper way to be church. The proper way to view enjoying the company of others, of my fellow Christians. The proper way to view pleasure through the lens of self-control and not through the lens of no-control or all-out feeding frenzy.
I know that growing up as I have has put a mindset of “do not waste be a good steward” locked into my head, and so thinking about money spent on a church dance immediately becomes a comparison of thinking how many tracts Gospel for Asia, for example, could have purchased. But I wonder at the rightness of always thinking that way. There are those examples of such great feasts and celebrations in the Bible, and if the church is the body and not the building, the body was very much a part of those feasts. The church was to experience the pleasure of each other’s fellowship, in a sense.
I seem to struggle with falling into the trap of being either an ascetic or a gourmand. I would very much like to do more things at church, like the Valentine’s banquet we had at our church this past February. Granted, there was a little Bible study in the midst of the evening, and there was no swing band or champagne. And the decorations were simple and crowd small. But it was fun. Life isn’t supposed to be a sour-faced dour grump-fest; we are to enjoy this gift of life that God has given us through art and music and good food and friends some of the time.
I would love to hear thoughts on the church and enjoying the pleasure of the company of our fellow Christians and what being church is, in this regard.
I still think the Red Hot Bash sounds weird. Maybe I’m not West-coast enough to get it. If any church in North Dakota had a dance and champagne bar, something would really hit the fan. I understand there is a cultural issue at work here. But I still think it’s weird.
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
92 Comments(+Add)
Unfortunately, I think many Christians haven’t enjoyed the gifts God has given them because they think pleasure is somehow frowned on by God.
To the surprise of no one I abhor it. The feasts were God outlined observances that reflected spiritual realities. The Jewish type of dance did not resemble the “bust a move” type which maybe includes suggestive moves. And the cnapagne table offers a temptation in a society that grossly abuses and idolizes alcohol.
Now, is anyone surprised. I will not be attending. And I am from the New York City area.
This passage comes immediately to mind:
Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
And shall begin to smite his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [Matt. 24:45-51]
I knew a guy we used to call Billy Bust-a-Move. It was at Bible camp. It had nothing to do with dancing; the guy was a complete klutz.
This has nothing to do with this post. Just seeing “bust a move” made it come to mind.
I’d love to go. I read the post and here’s what I thought was interesting: 2 months ago when Driscoll was calling people that the ODM’s don’t like heretics so he could get his book sales up (not to mention he’s bitter about certain other things–he said it, I didn’t) the ODM’s were all linking to him and loving on him. Now, (Stand back and shout that one word out: NOW) that he’s having a party that they think is wrong, they’re back ton wanting to fry him in hottest fires of heaven. He’s not part of the truth church, blah, blah, blech.
The very thing they attempt to use as “credible research” (So and So has to be guilty he’s linked to so and so) is what they did as long as it served their purpose.
Praise God, these people can have fun with their spouses with a lot of other church people. I’m not a Driscoll fan but I’d be willing to go this.
You know I’m surprised the ODM’s don’t ever seem to go after Greg Boyd. (Ken, we know you read here as you miss-quote people all the time–what’s up with giving Boyd a pass?)
I’m off to read The Myth of A Christian Nation.
Hmmm.
Is it for married people only? And, if it isn’t, is that still as Praise-God-worthy?
I’m not trying to bait. I’m curious. There’s probably a married/not-married participant issue that could be part of the discussion on dances, alcohol, and church.
I wouldn’t go. I don’t like being around a lot of people. Ugh.
(I just got that book! It’s next in my pile…)
I meant to put “or anyone they please” or some other such caveat to include single people. Personally, I think that it just sounds like a fun time to ring in the New Year. Jesus went to a lot of parties in his day and somehow the church has missed it.
Single, Married, Dating, Engaged, whatever… sounds like a way to have a lot of fun with people. That’s it to me.
Ok, NOW I’m off to do some reading.
P.S. Julie, if I can ever find your post about where to post a suggested reading list, I’ve almost got it done.
It seems a bit weird to me, too, but I’m even further from the west coast than you are, Julie.
Tim’s comment is spot-on, though. Dunno if it accounts for our feelings of weirdness, but it might to some degree.
I don’t plan on being in Seattle that night, so this all doesn’t factor into my attendance. And I’ve got 255,746,435,244,323,434,798 better things to do than pass judgment on it (not at all saying that you did, Julie).
Barely marginally-related thought: When I went to Georgia Tech back in the 80s (when dinosaurs roamed the earth), I was active in the Baptist Student Union. Several of the BSUs in our area got together annually for a dance. But since we were Baptists, we couldn’t use the “d” word. So we always said that we were getting together for a “foot fellowship”.
I have to say it would be weird here in Indiana, too, but I have a brother in Seattle who is a committed Christian, and from his comments about the “indie” culture of Seattle, getting together with a local band for entertainment is not an unusual thing.
Once again, I’m not sure it’s something to disparage, as there are certainly times where celebration is perfectly well in order and pleasing to God. For MH Seattle, it is a yearly thing they do, and a yearly thing the ODM’s whine about.
Here’s some photos from last year’s “Red Hot Bash”…
Where is the pleasure we should find in Christ? I have found more pleasure worshiping God on a dirt floor in the Central American jungle than a whole day of what some call pleasure. The church no longer finds her contentment in Christ, we must construct activities that compete with the secular.
Like Israel lamented, we want a king like the heathen nations. So it is with the church, we want what others have…oh…and throw in Jesus too.
Rick,
Then don’t go to a Notre Dame game. Don’t go on a date with your wife. In fact, I’ll be in Fl in a few weeks I’ll help you pack your stuff and even chip in for a ticket to Central America. Going from I think it’s wrong to your last comment where you seem to accuse them of Idol worship seems to be a long stretch.
I believe it is secular and worldly, you would not get the same turnout for a prayer meeting (whatever that is). I happen to believe as in Acts 2 that when believers gather together it is for spiritual purposes. They broke bread together, not as a party, but as a fellowship as believers.
I happen to make a distinction about going to a Notre Dame game at ND stadium and going to that game in the church building at a believer’s gathering. I did not say idol worship, those are your words, I said it was the church’s attempt to construct the hedonistic culture within the church.
And as I said, I will not be going, but like everyone else, I will be giving my opinion knowing it will not only be in the minority, it will be considered absurd and outdated.
signed, Scrooge
If its not sinful, then its spiritual. Well I suppose even if its sinful it its spiritual, just not in a good way.
The principle is sinful, Tim. To turn the church into a community recreational center and not the place where believers physically separate themselves and come to serve and worship Christ is sinful.
Not the party itself, but the altering of what the local church is supposed to have as its calling, that in my view is sinful.
Um, no. Using the building where the church gathers to offer a service to the community is in no way sinful.
How is this in anyway an “altering of what the local church is supposed to do”?
Also, I think, perhaps a bit, you’re taking what God meant for good and making it detestable.
Also, how the crap is offering a place for the community to celebrate New Year’s not “serving and worshiping Christ”?
A party with secular dancing (not Jewish), serving alcohol, and lots of food doesn’t fit into my definition of “serving and worshiping Christ”.
You and I speak a different language.
Rick,
You’re right, if you can’t see how serving the community is serving Christ there’s at least a language difference.
Rick
(Forgive me if this sounds snarky, because it isn’t meant to be.)
Given your comments, I seem to come away with the idea that if they met on a “neutral court”, that it’d be OK. How is that not putting too much emphasis on some brick and mortar?
Now I’ve got a big problem with the church that builds a workout gym and food court and 99 other common things, so that their people are neither in the world nor of it, and their entire living experience can be “safe for the whole family”.
But how is it a sin if friends gather in a space that they already own (so they’re not wasting $$$ on rental fees) and participate in an amoral, but not classically (and too narrowly) defined “spiritual” activity?
Oh, I have so got to get a jacket like this guy.
“Now I’ve got a big problem with the church that builds a workout gym and food court and 99 other common things,”
Why do you have a problem with that? Isn’t that using the property they already own to serve the community?
Well, (1) it’s generally not serving the community because (at least in my experience) it’s only open to members of the church and (2) I stated my reasons in the part of the quote that you cut off.
In the aerly church they met at homes I’m sure you all know. When the church began to build buildings things changed about the nature of the gathering. We do not gather at the buidling to create an atmosphere that the secular world can identify with. Our gathering is for believers to be taught the Word, prayer, worship, communion, mission support, and fellowship.
Paul says that perhaps an unbeliever may show up and that is why there should be no confusion. Our gatherings should never be constructed to attract the secular but to please Christ and in all things He might have the pre-eminence. The sinners should be attracted to Christ by the lives we lead and the verbal witness we give in the world.
We are the light of the world, but the assembling ourselves together is not for the world, it is for Christ and His people.
one more thing to consider, I think.
“…… a time to mourn and a time to dance”
as I understand it, this Red Hot Bash is once a year. If Mars Hill-Seattle were partying 16/4 (16 hours a day and 4 days a week), then the ODMs may have a case for putting finger to keyboard. The remainder of the year, I assume they are raising disciples and equipping the saints for the ministry, n’est pas?
as for worshiping God on the dirt floor in a Central American Jungle versus a comfortable air conditioned church hall in Florida, that is errmmm neither here nor there. It is the heart that counts because the true worshipers shall worship neither on the mountain or in Jerusalem, but in “spirit and in truth”.
Any church event that requires you to bring IDs and has a “dance contest” is setting you up for a night of pure fleshly indulgence and debauchery… All I think of when I read this is, well, Laodicea.
This is just an attempt to mimic whatever the world has to offer so that people will be happy.
Not to sound too traditional, but I remember hearing stories on when people spent the New Year’s eve in prayer asking God to bless th New Year. Oh wait, when I was living in Kenya a couple year’s ago that’s exactly what they did, followed by 12 days of fasting to beg God to impact their surrounding areas and lives.
I’m not saying this is a prescription for what we all should do but it does serve to highlight key differences.
Our gathering anywhere? Or our gathering at a specific geographic location? And is this an exhaustive list?
I would agree that we should not be seeking to attract the secular at the expense of pleasing Christ, but is it your contention that creating — for one night — an atmosphere that might be attractive to an unbeliever is automatically displeasing to Christ?
I can only come away with one of two conclusions from this statement. Either great (and overly undue, IMHO) importance is being placed on a hunk of bricks, or I can’t have lunch with a mixture of Christians and unbelievers.
Well said, although a bit redundant. If your perspective is such that you can pass automatic judgment on the necessary outcome of given circumstances, it’s pretty obvious that “all [you] think of” is Laodicea.
Wait a minute — I thought Steve Camp passed his divine mantel and ability to read the thoughts and intents of men to John MacArthur. When did you get it?
Maybe, this is just an attempt to have a party? I’m just throwing that out there. I don’t have the ability to read people’s minds though, so I am limited.
I’ll go with you, Joe, rather than the Pharisee chorus…
BTW, Rick you said something about prayer meeting (whatever that is). We have one at our church every Wed night. You should come. People are healed, God moves…it goes beyond words. Broken people band together seeking God. Good Times
Talk about the theologically absurd and “adding to scripture”… It just abounds in this thread:
1) I guess the gnostic in fundamentalism jumps out with “fleshly” distinctions (and not just in this particular comment).
2) Debauchery (”Extreme indulgence in sensual pleasures; dissipation; Orgies”) perhaps you ought to call up Mars Hill and apologize to them for the slander you just wrote about them. Somehow, a community gathering of Christians which includes dancing and a champagne toast now qualifies as “debauchery”. Perhaps you should volunteer to write for the pharisees at CR?N with such an idiotic focus on externals…
3) If you’re thinking of Laodicea, then you don’t get what their sin was…
A) Your interpretation, not even remotely in the Bible.
B) Seems to me this would fit under the definition of “fellowship”, but I guess they need to run all of their local community fellowship ideas past the pharisees on the internet to get them approved. Should they wait 30 days for comment, or just slit their wrists now?
Wow – I wish I could read minds. It would make things SOOOO much easier. How about this, though? How about we *gasp* not assume the worst about Christian brothers and sisters and *gasp*gasp* assume, in good faith, that their purpose is to celebrate the year that just passed, giving thanks to God for it and to bless Him for the year to come, which will arrive briefly after the festivities begin? Seems pretty much in line with the attitude during 6 of the 7 Jewish Feasts…
As to the availability of *gasp* alcohol, if I read the ad correctly, the party starts at 9:30, but alcohol (champagne) is being made at 11:30 for New Year’s toasts… hardly drunken debauchery.
A) “secular” – no such thing. Trying to make this “secular” vs. “spiritual” distinction is consistently unhelpful…
B) “worldly” – once again, this has nothing to do with “worldly” – the kosmos – the systems of this world. However, when you twist “worldly” to include cultural practice, then you pretty much open the door to anyone’s opinion as to what is “worldly” and what is not. Completely inconsistent with Jesus’ teaching.
C) “you would not get the same turnout for a prayer meeting (whatever that is).” If true, this would be sad, but it is irrelevant. It’s like saying “I’m sorry, but we’re not going to eat pizza tonight because the Cubs didn’t make the world series.”
Being familiar enough with the MH Seattle community to say that this isn’t even remotely 24/7 (or 16/4) behavior in that community, I’m willing to say “hey! isn’t it great that their community is gathering for fellowship and celebration of the New Year?”
Though I suppose I could beat my pharisaical chest and display my “holiness” by looking down my nose at them as being “worldly” and “fleshly” for indulging in “debauchery”…
I think I’ll take the former and give thanks to God that He calls us to all times, be they for dancing or mourning…
Why do we rail on Christians who have alcohol and dancing as a part of a community gathering because those things can and have been taken too far but are not sinful but we completely ignore the majority of churches that have feasts where many men overindulge in food and dessert?
I believe more american Christians are controlled by their stomachs than their minds. We create issues/problems/sins where there aren’t any and ignore the issues/problems/sins where they exist “en mass”. Now I am not trying to say that what they are doing is right because the rest of us have done wrong. I am trying to point out that our perspectives may be skewed.
Christian,
Probably because everyone has to eat to live, and to be as legalistic about eating (to prevent overeating) as one might be regarding optional things (like drinking and dancing) would expose the error in the general attitude…
“Though I suppose I could beat my pharisaical chest and display my “holiness†by looking down my nose at them as being “worldly†and “fleshly†for indulging in “debaucheryâ€â€¦
Wow. Sylvanesque at its finest. All disagreement or perspective is either yours or Pharisaical. I look down my nose at “worldy” but other looks down the nose at being pharisaical are somehow less judgmental. For the record, I have no holiness but His.
No, Rick – there is a difference between Phariseeism and Hedonism – Phariseeism is making up rules for what is “holy” or “worldly” apart from scripture…
In this particular case, what MH Seattle is doing falls short of Hedonism, and to misappropriate “worldly” to somehow apply to it IS, by definition, legalism.
Sorry, you’re right Chris L, in light of the definition you have, debauchery is perhaps a little strong. Please accept my recanting of that word.
However, I stand by everything else I said… so I guess I’m still in the Pharisee camp – at least in your view. Interesting on how easily that word is tossed around the moment someone doesn’t agree with a position being promoted on this site… even though I thought the position of labelling was frowned upon here.
But what is someone to gather from the website?
“COME BUST A MOVE ON THE ENORMOUS DANCE FLOOR WHEN THE BALLARD CAMPUS TRANSFORMS INTO A POSH CLUB TO CELEBRATE THE NEW YEAR. A SMOKING BAND, TASTY DESSERTS, A CHAMPAGNE TOAST AT MIDNIGHT – MARS HILL HAS NEVER SEEN A PARTY LIKE THIS.”
Further down: “At midnight, countdown with 1000 other revelers with fireworks live from Seattle’s Space Needle on the big screens.”
As someone who used to go to parties ad nauseum, this web page is absolutely NO DIFFERENT than most club scene web pages, targeting with the same message and everything.
If you think this is appropriate for a church, I think that’s sad, but reflects where the Church has fallen to today.
Philippians 1: “Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ…”
Amen Rick – I second that as well. As Paul said, within me dwells no good thing.
So you have subjectivly defined hedonism and all opinions to the contrary are Pharisitical? I say it is hedonism and of course by the nature of the word it is subjective, unless you claim to have the divine parameters.
You are allowed to have your perspectives, but you seem to discount another perspective as being illogical and provably untrue. I imagined a wider discouse than is usually accepted in other theological areas. In many ways, the restrictions are similar.
Is the word reveler now ontologically bad? Is that why it was highlighted?
Let’s see –
A) a church gathers together on NY Eve for fellowship.
OK, per II Opinions 3:16
B) A church gathers together on NY Eve for fellowship and includes a champagne toast.
Suspect, per II Opinions 4:19
C) A church gathers together on NY Eve for fellowship and includes dancing and a champagne toast.
“The principle is sinful” – II Opinions 12:24
Guess what – the original “church buildings” were patterned in function after the synagogues that many of the believers were familiar with. Apart from Saturday, the synagogue was a place where the community gathered for many purposes – celebration, prayer, study, worship, debate and fellowship.
- directly from the book of II Opinions.
Basically, Rick, whenever you create a new set of sins – creating rules that you believe will please God, even if they are not contained in the Bible – you are in violation of the third commandment by putting God’s stamp of approval on “sins” He has not defined.
The responses to this event at a church on the other side of the country from most of us can, in congruency with scripture, acceptably range from “I wouldn’t do it in my community…” to “it looks OK to me”, but it crosses the line of legalism when it becomes “what they’re doing is sinful because I don’t think they should use their building that way”…
II Opinions. And yet you recoil at that suggestion about the views of some emergent types. Like I said, my opinion about worldy activity is subjective, just like yours. The Bible doesn’t specifically say a lot of things, but all of us are called to hear the leading of the Spirit. I didn’t say they weren’t Christians, I said that I believed that bash is worldly.
I reserve my right to define these terms just as subjectively as everyone eles defines them. Remember, no one should be certain about my certainty, it is as a writer observed “boastful”.
Nice attempt to dumb it down for us Chris L – again, faulty reasoning and an attempt to paint a picture that is not reflected even in the web page they have put together.
Come on – why defend something that is openly flagrant?
Joe, sorry, I don’t know what ontologically means, but I do think it is a poor choice of words to represent a church, don’t you?
Rick and Paul,
Basically, what we have here is an assumption of bad faith on the part of a church community into which I would be willing to bet $100 (unless you think betting is sinful) neither of you have EVER darkened the door…
Paul, you have alluded to it, and Rick you have OUTRIGHT called a sin. I didn’t comment on your threads until I read that, because it is at that point you crossed the line between your own opinion and making it God’s opinion.
Guess what? A church coming together and celebrating is OK! God wanted his people to do this multiple times a year.
Guess what? A church allowing alcohol at a fellowship function is NOT a sin. In some places it might not be a good witness (like, particularly, in a MW college town where drinking is a huge problem), but that is not a cross-cultural absolute.
Guess what? Dancing isn’t a sin. Michael had her womb closed for snarking at David when he did it in celebration for the Lord’s blessing, so apparently God holds a bit of a low opinion of snarking at others who revel in the Lord.
Guess what? The only difference between a building a church meets in and any other building is that most other buildings are occupied on an opposite schedule. No piece of ground is holy on this planet…
Ontological – “in and of itself, apart from anything else”
_____________
Flagrant: “Conspicuously bad, offensive, or reprehensible”
I would HIGHLY disagree with “conspicuously bad, offensive, or reprehensible” as defining this (or their web page).
Have you ever BEEN to Seattle for any period of time? It has an incredibly high concentration of artists (musical and otherwise) and other “creative types”. Basically, the website is in the same style as 40’s “swing band clubs”, and (I suspect) put together by a volunteer at the church (which also has a high concentration of talented folks…)
Everything I have seen in Seattle when staying with my brother says “over the top” when it comes to artistic detail and quality (though I highly disagree with the political and spiritual climate in the city)…
I don’t see anything “flagrant” there – just “hip” language and a professional-looking ad (probably put together in less time than a much-less-than-professional job I would have done, given the task).
Nice touch there, Chris L, with the “revel in the Lord.” To even make this stretch is beyond comprehension to me.
What gets me is that you (and a few others) are defending and trying to tame down what the actual church who’s doing the event hasn’t done. At least they have called a “spade a spade”. You are trying to explain away and make “Hail Mary” analogies that you hope might stick.
To give you something else to think about… have you ever read Judges 2 & 3 or perhaps Nehemiah (since you’re in the OT already with David)? Tons of other examples, but that’s good for starters.
Who condemned a church coming together to celebrate? Isn’t that what I stated in my 11:55am comment?
Guess we’d just better don sackcloth and ashes from here on out…
Driscoll preached a series on Nehemiah earlier this year, incidentally…
Yes I’ve read them, and the principal sins involved (idolatry and ACTUAL debauchery and sexual sin) don’t seem to be on display, let alone celebrated, with Mars Hill’s celebration.
Who needs the world to attack the church when folks like you do it just fine enough from within its walls?
Who needs thoughtful exegesis when you can just excoriate based on emotions and which churches you don’t like?
To equate David dancing in a priestly garment before the Ark of the Covenant with a glorified cocktail party is, well, beyond words. Will the men be dancing alone before the Lord or with women? Will it be a mixed multitude or consecrated believers? It is the church’s competition for the world’s celebration.
The New Year observance is secular in and of itself. No one stay up much to the midnight hour during the year in prayer, but dancing and drink, that’s the ticket. I would love to have all the conversation recorded to see how many times Jesus and the things of the Lord are discussed.
I do not know, just guessing like everyone else.
Does anyone fear God?
Not because of what this church is or isn’t doing, but because of the judgment call being made that they are sinning.
That should scare me; to think if I’m wrong, then I’m in a whole lot of trouble, because I called what was good, evil.
Those are my thoughts.
Joe
Joe the flipside of calling good, evil is calling evil, good. I won’t say what they are doing is evil, but it is a gross error and is not wise for a church to engage in.
Again, the church in question seems to be more forthright in its presentation than the commenters on this site.
This whole “secular” vs. “spiritual” thing you’re doing is pretty much irrelevant… Every choice made is a spiritual one, and trying to segregate “secular” things just adds to the legalistic tendencies we all innately seem to have…
And the Cubs didn’t go to the World Series. What does this have to do with Mars Hill and what they’re doing on this one night of the year?
That’s exactly the point I was trying to make, Joe, though much less succinctly. It wasn’t until this church was pronounced as “sinning” in a way completely undefined in scripture and purely from the book of II Opinions – calling what is good, evil – that I decided to come back into the conversation…
Paul C,
Yes but if you call what they are doing evil, because you think it’s evil, then you risk being deadly wrong because it might just be something God enjoys seeing his people do. That’s my point.
Chris L, I’ve agreed with what you’ve said for this entire conversation. Just adding my witness.
Joe
Did you ever think that maybe – just maybe – some of us might know folks there? As for what you’ve twisted its presentation to mean (”debauchery” – which you did correct, somewhat – “flagrant” – which you have not corrected), might you consider that if you come from an assumption of good faith (you know – kind of like I Cor 13 was actually in effect) that “revelers” are indeed “reveling” – celebrating and taking delight in the year God has given and the one that He is bringing in.
At least that’s how I heard Driscoll describe last year’s event… But hey, why should we believe him (after all, he’s only the pastor there). We need to feel better about our own “holiness” in whatever we choose to do (or not to do) on December 31. Thank God, we’re not like those folks out in Seattle!
This is the most cowardly, garbage response ever. It comes up every time someone is trying to control someone else but can’t find the scriptural support to brow beat them.
I’m just sort of curious how many churches who don’t do this would be missed by the communities they are in if they were wiped off the face of the earth by some kind of natural disaster. Because I guarantee you Mars Hill would be.
Tim, if you say so. I said this is a misjudment, so what’s cowardly about that. Calm down a little my friend.
Chris L – “that “revelers†are indeed “reveling†– celebrating and taking delight in the year God has given and the one that He is bringing in.” And this is represented on the web page in question how?
Again, nice stretch in trying to draw the pharisee card again… anyone who doesn’t agree, bam, pharisee!
Chris L – if 1 Cor 13 was in affect woudlnt’t that also adjust your tone? just asking.
Paul C,
That still doesn’t address your problem, or make what you’re doing right. Turning peoples statements around on them doesn’t absolve you of what you’ve said or what your position is. It’s just a tactic you might be subconsciously using to dodge the points Chris brought up.
Dunno
Joe
Agreement does not equate to phariseeism. Declaring that these folks are sinning is phariseeism. Declaring that using buildings owned by churches used for anything outside a narrow set of uses is “sinful” (or, more politically correctly “in gross error”) is phariseeism. Has nothing to do with “not agreeing with me” and everything to do with adding absolutes to the Bible… One can disagree with the wisdom of doing something (which does not equate do “agreeing with me”) and not be pharisaical, but that line is crossed when declarations are made of ill intent and “sin”/”gross error” on things which obviously aren’t directly addressed in scripture.
Let’s see – if I go to the webpage via the normal channels (rather than just hotlinking directly to it), I first go through the church’s home page (which has a number of useful links to teachings and for new Christians) and click on News and Events. The primary words visible on the page are “Pastor’ Prayers Before Christmas” and link to this article. The “Red Hot Bash” is linked in a list between Christmas Services, A Men’s Retreat and the Current Sermon Series.
So, while I might not find explicit “mission statements” for every event, I have to go through the church’s website to get there… Somehow, I don’t think “thou shall have a mission statement for every event” appears anywhere in scripture, whereas I can find a number of places where “giving the benefit of the doubt” fits within the definition of loving one’s brother…
But hey, I also think there are things that qualify for “loving your brother” that involve plain old service delivered with only a smile, so I may already be a heretic.
I’m plenty calm. Don’t mistake assessment for tone.
I would guess that most of the decisions and methodologies that make Mars Hill effective and successful you would label unwise. The reality is that within the church in America “unwise” is generally synonymous for “I’m not dishonest enough to twist scripture, but we’re not doing it becasue I don’t like it”.
It seems it was so unwise and such an unmitigated disaster that they’ve decided to do it for the second year in a row. If only everything that was attempted byt he church was so unwise.
To your original question, Julie, I think that when we’re in community (as a church), we should see and share all of the “highs” and “lows” – helping to bear the burdens, to ease the suffering, to mourn with those mourning and to celebrate with those celebrating.
* If “celebration” in your community means a pitch-in dinner with some singing led by Julie on the piano, that is great.
*If “celebration” in your community means a tailgate dinner watching the local NFL team in a playoff game, that is great.
*If “celebration” in your community is a prayer meeting in which there is almost no speaking and soft singing of hymns, that is great.
*If “celebration” in your community is a swing band, dancing and toasts at midnight to bring in the New Year, that is great, as well…
Actually Tim, I think that’s an assumption (regarding methodologies). The reason I stop short of calling it sin outright is:
1. because I don’t know enough
2. as Paul said, all things may be lawful but not wise or necessary
That’s the reason for calling it misjudgment.
Someone said that the community would be sad if this church were wiped off the face of the map. That’s a poor standard to measure by as they would say the same thing about their favorite sports team. So what?
Rick said,
I wonder if that is self incrimination? Or does that mean that he’s personally talked to Driscoll about his prayer life? No? Well, then at least he’s talked to numerous people at Mars (Seattle) and has a clear picture of their prayer life? I doubt it.
Paul,
That’s hearkening back to a meme from earlier this year on the blog, where we were talking about the effectiveness of the church within the community – of whether it is being salt and light. If the church were to just close its doors and disappear, would it be missed in the community because its service (being salt and light) was so integral to the needs of the greater community….
While this is not sufficient for being judged an excellent body of believers, it is necessary.
What exactly is the “wrongness” of it? Is it the alcohol? It it the dancing? Is it the fact that they are reveling? Yet, none of these things are wrong if not taken to extremes.
Maybe it’s the scale? If 10 believers got together and danced and toasted in the new year, would that still be “wrong.” If so, on what basis?
Seems to me the “wrongness” is based on the scale (the whole MHS fellowship), the location (their facilities), and the alternatives (they could be praying instead).
When I read the OP I was on the fence, after reading the comments I’m unconvinced why it’s wrong.
“…..Aaron made proclamation, and said, Tomorrow is a feast to the LORD. And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.” [Exodus 32:5b-6]
————————————————————–
found this here: http://www.redhotbash.com/
“Our second annual New Year’s extravaganza! Ring in 2008 in Red Hot Style. This New Year’s Eve party features internationally known artist, Bobby Medina & his Red Hot Band. This 12 piece big band does it all, from Swing, to Latin to Motown and beyond and are widely considering one of the top dance bands in the Northwest. We’ll be transforming our auditorium into a Red Hot Spot, bringing in an enormous dance floor, refreshments, dessert, champagne, photos in an awesome backdrop designed for the event and all the noise-making party favors you could want. At midnight, countdown with 1000 other revelers with fireworks live from Seattle’s Space Needle on the big screens. This is going to be an unforgettable party. Get ready to sizzle!”
——————————————
Redhot! Get ready to sizzle!
Is it just me or is that a omen?
Recommend make an exodus.
Joe – perhaps you could include my entire comment meant to clear up your confusion.
“I do not know, just guessing like everyone else. “
I didn’t make the connection between that statement and all the difiinitive statements earlier in the comment section. Nor, did I take it to be all that sincere given the tenor of your comments regarding knowing that you know.
So youn were making subjective assessments also. My “tenor” was in association with the evnt, not the people or their hearts. A little different than your “I wonder if that is self incrimination? ” statement which personalized it.
BTW – My statement on prayer includes all of us.
Well, take me off of your “all of us list” please. I’ve got a prayer life.
Thanks
And if it included all of us, then you and I agree. It was self incriminating.
So you are up in the midnight hours, Joe. I guess again I made a mistake, by your own words you feel comfortable with your prayer life. You seem unable to discuss topics without getting personal. You have a history.
Yes, Rick I feel comfortable with my prayer life. Is that bad? Making verbose statements that are generalizing and condemning about people you don’t know is wrong. In fact, I’ll tell you what the next time I’m up in the Midnight hours (which ones are they) I’ll call you. Email me your number and we’ll pray together.
I have a history. Rick, we all have a history but thanks for taking the time to look at and understand mine. The fact of the matter is you made a statement about people you don’t know anything about. You slandered those people. You implied that anyone who wants to go to this party can’t possibly be a person of prayer. That’s sin.
You are a liar, Joe. I never said any such thing. I made a general statement about the church as a whole. Not that we don’t have prayer lives, but that we all are in need of deepening them.
I never mentioned Driscoll, the staff, the motives, their gospel, their theology, or anything else about the church spiritually. I said that even though well intentioned I think the New Years party is worldly. And I stand by my guess, most people who will come to a New Years party will never pray in the night hours.(sacrificially stay up late to pray) Maybe some like you do, but most will sacrifice for pleasure not prayer. And I am not speaking narrowly about the MH party goers.
And if I include myself as you observed, I desire a deeper prayer life. I always have.
Maybe I’m the only one. I am just guessing.
OK guys… you’re on the same team. I think this has escalated beyond what ya both mean to really say… am I right?
Your memory must be fading Rick. You said, “NO ONE” that means no one typically, unless I’m missing the English version of “NO ONE.” You said this in the context of a conversation about that church. Because it only takes one lie to be a liar (not as nice of a ring as one spark to get a fire going) you are correct that I am a liar, but your self righteousness smells bad.
Neil, my edit button is still on.
Joe,
I’m not sure what ya mean exactly by your edit button still being on.
Nevertheless Neil, I will allow Rick to have the last comment and I will let this part of this conversation drop.
Neil,
You asked if this had escalated beyond what I meant to say. The truth is that it has not. I found some statements in this thread to be very offensive. There is much that I thought about saying that I did not. Therefore, I was still using my “edit button.”
“No one stay up much to the midnight hour during the year in prayer”
No one (not just MH people) and much ( there maybe some).
English.
Thank you Rick. Seriously, send me your # and I’ll call you the sometime. We’ll pray together.
I have been gone all day and missed this entire thread; I didn’t even realize people were commenting on it because the comments didn’t arrive in my email. It seems to have waxed and waned, but I did find Christian’s comment very interesting, and perhaps a stepping stone to a future post:
I frequently get myself in trouble during Sunday School or other group discussions which start to list the usual suspects when it comes to sin: sexual sins, drunkenness, etc. I usually throw in the gluttony comment at the apex of the amen chorus in which everyone is agreeing that “those people are terrible.”
The obesity rate for Evangelicals is alarming. I briefly mentioned it on one of my blogs, though I did not cover it in great depth.
The flipside to this is the obsession Christians have over treating their body like it may be possible to not actually die, getting involved in bizarre diets and hawking vitamins. I talked about that on my own blog here.
Frankly, as Chris L. pointed out, we have to eat to live. Eating is the most difficult of all things to control; unlike alcohol, we can’t live without food. We must learn to control it; we can’t merely avoid it.
Self-control is the issue. I love “parties” with church people. But when the party, the fun, the pleasure becomes the focus, when the love of having fun without balancing the pleasure with the work — therein lies the sin.
That’s just my opinion, of course.
Frankly, as Chris L. pointed out, we have to eat to live.
What do you think about eating for pleasure if you don’t need it to live?
When Jesus appeared to the disciples after his resurrection, he ate fish and honeycomb with them:
And while they believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of broiled fish, and of honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them (Luke 24:41-43 KJV).
Did Jesus eat with them for the food, fun, and fellowship? What was Jesus purpose for doing this?
What is the purpose of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:( KJV)? Food, fun, fellowship? Are we eating for pleasure? Are we even eating what we consider “food” or are we eating spiritual food (i.e. bread of life) at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb? Any suggestions?
F Whittenburg
What I meant, F, is that, regardless of all the other times we are “allowed” to eat, we humans must eat. We aren’t Jesus resurrected, with the option to eat or not. We must eat, in order to live. So, unlike alcohol or tobacco or whatever, we can’t just say “I can’t control my eating so I am going to completely abstain; I know it’s an area of weakness and I need to flee the temptation.” With food, in this life for us as humans, we must eat. We must face it.
Your questions regarding the place of eating outside of the mere “I must eat to live” are interesting. Food goes with fellowship — no question. When people get together, if there’s no food or drink…something is amiss. So, food clearly has more than just a “fuel for the body” role. I think that people who miss this, or end up over-controlling food and turn it into a “eat to live only” role go the opposite direction. They over-correct. Is there anything worse than people who show up at a fellowship meal or party who go on and on about how they can’t eat the food the host prepared because it’s bad for them or whatever? It throws things off.
Self-control is finding a way to control the food, in this case, and not let it control you. Out-of-control with food can go both ways: gluttony, or obsession about not eating. Neither of those two are self-control, but are cases when the food is in control, becoming something else, some other kind of stand-in in our lives. I say all this because I know this struggle — the all-or-nothing response with food — extremely well. Finding that middle place of enjoying food without abusing it or guilting over it…it is difficult for so many people.
It is much easier to just eat away at the buffet and point out how evil the homosexuals are. And the Evangelical church, in particular, tends to do that.
“Your questions regarding the place of eating outside of the mere “I must eat to live†are interesting. Food goes with fellowship — no question. When people get together, if there’s no food or drink…something is amiss. So, food clearly has more than just a “fuel for the body†role. I think that people who miss this, or end up over-controlling food and turn it into a “eat to live only†role go the opposite direction. They over-correct. Is there anything worse than people who show up at a fellowship meal or party who go on and on about how they can’t eat the food the host prepared because it’s bad for them or whatever? It throws things off.”
Hello Julie,
Thank you for the response. I never really thought about it much. Many of the great events of Jewish people in the Old Testament were marked and celebrated by feasts (Pentacost, First Fruits, Feast of Tabernacle, etc.). Then you also see the practice of refraining from eating in the Bible (i.e. fasting). Eating and drinking has never been on the top of my list for Bible study topics.
For the kingdom of God is not meat or drink: but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost (Romans 14:17 KJV)
F Whittenburg
http://www.christiannewbirth.com
Ah, yes. Fasting! See, food, its purpose, our need, our ability to control and deny — I think it would make for fascinating study.
I rarely see it done, beyond fasting.
There’s a lot of guilt when you start talking about food and control…people get defensive.
But I would love to really dig into this. It would personally help me in many areas of my life. I do love that verse you ended with…good stuff to think about.
(Any further verses or books on the subject would be appreciated — seriously. Anyone. Email me.)
I went back and breezed over some of the posts on this topic. Can I make an observation?
Since the Bible says that the “kingdom of God” is not meat or drink, then I think the question has to be asked is the discussion on the topic of meat and drink in the comments on this post helping to advance and demonstrate the “kingdom of God” (i.e. righteousness, peace. and joy) to all that read them?
For the kingdom of God is not meat or drink: but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost (Romans 14:17 KJV).
F Whittenburg
http://www.christiannewbirth.com
Hello Julie,
Sorry, I haven’t gotten back sooner to answer your question about fasting. The only “fast” that I partake of is in the Book of Isaiah 58:1-11. I call it the Lord’s Fast because the Lord said in Isaiah 58:6 that it is the fast He has chosen.
Most people when they fast they refrain from food, drink, favorite activities, etc. They are usually trying to get some spiritual direction or some other communication with God. They think by afficting themselves by denying sustanance or pleasure they are pleasing God and will be rewarded with there desired petition. In Isaiah 58:1-5 the Lord is questioning the priest about this practice and then states:
ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high (Isaiah 58:5).
The Lord then declares in Isaiah 58:6 the type of fast He has chosen.
Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; and the glory of the Lord shall be thy rereward (Isaiah 58:6-8 KJV).
When most people fast, the food that they deny themselves usually just sits in the refrigerator until the time that they go off their fast. What I do when I “fast” is I give the amount of the price of the food I am denying myself to the local homeless shelter to feed them. According to these verses in Isaiah 58 the “fasting” that brings the Lord glory is when you deny yourself so others that do not have food can eat or deny yourself those extra clothes so the naked can be clothed. This is the “fasting” that brings glory to the Lord.
Hope this helps.
F Whittenburg
http://www.christiannewbirth.com