My Wife Upsets Ken (He can criticize anyone he wants, but can’t be criticized)
I hate to post this without Chris L’s post about hermeneutics having some time on its own to breath but this was too much. Here’s an excerpt from my response.
Well, my wife has hit the big time. It appears that Ken Silva felt the need to defend himself from what my wife wrote. Read her article here, and then read his response here.
It seems that Ken has a man crush on our pastor. He and I have exchanged words on issues in the past. In fact we’re coming up on the anniversary of the first time he ever told me I was apostate. Recently, I’ve been trying to help Mr. Silva maintain his integrity but it appears he has fallen short of this yet again. As just yesterday he, made this statement:
I don’t plan on speaking further with, or about, Joe because in my view he has a real problem with reading comprehension. (Online Source)
Yet, he works me into his “defense” piece. Now, I wonder what I had to do with anything? It appears that Mr. Silva who claims to be an ordained SBC minister has missed these verses in James:
Read more here
37 Comments(+Add)
For some reason putting this in the category of “Women” really made me laugh.
Well, he implies that she shouldn’t question him because he’s a pastor, blah, blah, blah
This is my favorite line from his article.
Does he have a mouse in his pocket?
“us” lets the reader imagine that Apprising Ministries (sic) is more than one person (you know the whole ‘puffed-up’, ’self-important’ thing is, well, important to him). After all – he took time away from being with his family to “work” by replying to her email.
Oh, such hard work and suffering – if only that’s what most of the Christians in the world had to bear…
Maybe he’s referring to the 5 people in his church.
According to C?N the persecution is coming…could this be the start?
He had to take time away from his family to respond to me right? Why get on the internet in the first place if you are with “your family”? He drives me crazy!
You want logic? How long you been in the game? “rookie”
Ken keeps getting more and more ridiculous. After excoriating me for posting a private email, he does the same.
Tim,
didn’t you know rules don’t apply to him. BTW, I never received an e-mail from him back. I checked my spam folder it was not there either. It makes me wonder what happened to it. The first time I ever read his “response” e-mail was on his site.
My favorite line is when he describes Erica as “impudent”. The irony of Ken saying someone else is “marked by contemptuous or cocky boldness or disregard of others” priceless.
The definition found here
Haha, his article still cracks me up. You can’t say that to a pastor-teacher. Well, I’m ordained. I’m a pastor-teacher, can I say it? He linked to my article calling it an alternate view of reality. That’s rich, from the man who said, “I am not a fundamentalist.” Sure, neither is Osama.
I understand and appreciate the desire to defend your Pastor. I feel the same passion to contend for the faith that has been entrusted us in the scripture. I am a Pastor in the CM&A, and we hold to the Bible, and we hold to our Statement of Faith based upon the scripture. Here is a look at our statement of faith put next to quotes from Rob Bell. Though I have never been to church, I have read his books, and gotten quotes from them so I could line them up with scripture and our statement of faith. I have done the same with John McArthur, John Piper, Doug Pagitt, and others: Before I will use their books or their tapes, we must go through this rigorous testing so as to not lead our flock astray from the teachings of the Bible.
1. There is one God,(1) who is infinitely perfect,(2) existing eternally in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.(3) ([1] Deuteronomy 6:4, [2] Matthew 5:48, [3] Matthew 28:19)
Rob Bell, Velvet Elvis, Page 25 “This doctrine is central to historic, orthodox Christian faith. While there is only one God, God is somehow present everywhere. People began to call this presence, this power of God, his ‘Spirit’. So there is God, the then there is God’s Spirit. And then Jesus comes among us and has this oneness with God that has people saying things like God has visited us in the flesh (John 1:14). So God is one, but God has also revealed himself to us as Spirit and then as Jesus. One and yet three. This three-in-oneness understanding of God emerged in several hundred years after Jesus’ resurrection. People began to call this concept the Trinity. The word trinity is not found anywhere in the Bible. Jesus didn’t use the word, and the writers of the rest of the Bible didn’t use the word.
But over time this belief, this understanding, this doctrine, has become central to how followers of Jesus have understood who God is. It is a spring, and people jumped for thousands of years without it (this fact, of course, doesn’t make the doctrine any less true. It’s been true all along; people just ‘recently’ discovered it.) It was added later. We can take it out and examine it. Discuss it, probe it, question it. It flexes, and it stretches.2 It has brought a littler, deeper, richer understanding to the mysterious being who is God. . . .Our words are not absolutes. Only God is absolute… The moment God is figured out with nice neat lines and definitions, we are no longer dealing with God. We are dealing with somebody we made up”
2. Jesus Christ is the true God and the true man.(4) He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary.(5) He died upon the cross, the Just for the unjust,(6) as a substitutionary sacrifice,(7) and all who believe in Him are justified on the ground of His shed blood.(8) He arose from the dead according to the Scriptures.(9) He is now at the right hand of Majesty on high as our great High Priest.(10) He will come again to establish His kingdom, righteousness and peace.(11) ([4] Philippians 2:6–11, [5] Luke 1:34–38, [6] I Peter 3:18, [7] Hebrews 2:9, [8] Romans 5:9, [9] Acts 2:23–24, [10] Hebrews 8:1, [11] Matthew 26:64)
Rob Bell on the Virgin Birth (Velvet Elvis, pg 26):”What if tomorrow someone digs up definitive proof that Jesus had a real, earthly, biological father named Larry, and archaeologists find Larry’s tomb and do DNA samples and prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the virgin birth was really just a bit of mythologizing the Gospel writers threw in to appeal to the followers of the Mithra and Dionysian religious cults that were hugely popular at the time of Jesus, whose gods had virgin births? But what if as you study the origin of the word virgin, you discover that the word virgin in the gospel of Matthew actually comes from the book of Isaiah, and then you find out that in the Hebrew language at that time, the word virgin could mean several things. And what if you discover that in the first century being “born of a virgin” also referred to a child whose mother became pregnant the first time she had intercourse?”
Did Jesus Rise from the Dead? “We live in metaphors……The tomb is empty because we have met the risen Christ – we have experienced Jesus in a way that transcends space and time. And this gives us hope.- pg 27
3. The Holy Spirit is a divine person,(12) sent to dwell, guide, teach, empower the believer,(13) and convince the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment.(14) ([12] John 14:15–18, [13] John 16:13, Acts 1:8, [14] John 16:7–11)
4. The Old and New Testaments, inerrant as originally given, were verbally inspired by God and are a complete revelation of His will for the salvation of men. They constitute the divine and only rule of Christian faith and practice.(15) ([15] 2 Peter 1:20–21, 2 Timothy 3:15–16)
Rob Bell on the Bible, Velvet Elvis, Pg 65″The Bible is a collection of stories that teach us about what it looks like when God is at work through actual people. The Bible has the authority it does only because it contains stories about people interacting with the God who has all authority”.
Pg 68″…it wasn’t until the 300s that what we know as the sixty-six books of the Bible were actually agreed upon as the ‘Bible’. This is part of the problem with continually insisting that one of the absolutes of the Christian faith must be a belief that “Scripture alone” is our guide. It sounds nice, but it is not true. In reaction to abuses by the church, a group of believers during a time called the Reformation claimed that we only need the authority of the Bible. But the problem is that we got the Bible from the church voting on what the Bible even is. So when I affirm the Bible as God’s word, in the same breath I have to affirm that when those people voted, God was somehow present, guiding them to do what they did. When people say that all we need is the Bible, it is simply not true. In affirming the Bible as inspired, I also have to affirm the Spirit who I believe was inspiring those people to choose those books.
5. Man was originally created in the image and likeness of God:(16) he fell through disobedience, incurring thereby both physical and spiritual death. All men are born with a sinful nature,(17) are separated from the life of God, and can be saved only through the atoning work of the Lord Jesus Christ.(18) The portion of the unrepentant and unbelieving is existence forever in conscious torment;(19) and that of the believer, in everlasting joy and bliss.(20) ([16] Genesis 1:27, [17] Romans 3:23, [18] 1 Corinthians15:20–23, [19] Revelation 21:8, [20] Revelation 21:1–4)
Rob Bell on sin, Velvet Elvis “I can’t find one place in the teachings of Jesus, or the Bible for that matter, where we are to identify ourselves first and foremost as sinners. Now this doesn’t mean we don’t sin; that’s obvious. In the book of James it’s written like this: ‘We all stumble in many ways.’ Once again, the greatest truth of the story of Adam and Eve isn’t that it happened, but that it happens. We all make choices to live outside of how God created us to live. We have all come up short.” – p. 139
6. Salvation has been provided through Jesus Christ for all men; and those who repent and believe in Him are born again of the Holy Spirit, receive the gift of eternal life, and become the children of God.(21) ([21] Titus 3:4–7)
Rob Bell on the Atonement: “So this reality, this forgiveness, this reconciliation, is true for [i]everybody. Paul insisted that when Jesus died on the cross he was reconciling ‘all things, in heaven and on earth, to God. This reality then isn’t something we make true about ourselves by doing something (like repenting and believing – my comment). It is already true. Our choice is to live in this new reality or cling to a reality of our own making[/i]“-pg 146
7. It is the will of God that each believer should be filled with the Holy Spirit and be sanctified wholly,(22) being separated from sin and the world and fully dedicated to the will of God, thereby receiving power for holy living and effective service.(23) This is both a crisis and a progressive experience wrought in the life of the believer subsequent to conversion.24 ([22] 1 Thessalonians 5:23, [23] Acts 1:8, [24] Romans 6:1–14)
Rob Bell on Holiness, Velvet Elvis “For a Christian, Jesus’ teachings aren’t to be followed because they are a nice way to live a moral life. They are to be followed because they are the possible insight into how the world really works. They teach us how things are. I don’t follow Jesus because I think Christianity is the best religion. I follow Jesus because he leads me into ultimate reality. He teaches me to live in tune with how reality is. When Jesus said, ‘No one comes to the Father except through me’, he was saying that his way, his words, his life is our connection to how things truly are at the deepest levels of existence. For Jesus then, the point of religion is to help us connect with ultimate reality, God.” – p. 83
Who should we have faith in to live the Christian Life?“Who does Peter lose faith in? Not Jesus; he is doing fine. Peter loses faith in himself. Peter loses faith that he can do what his rabbi is doing. If the rabbi calls you to be his disciple, then he believes that you can actually be like him. As we read the stories of Jesus’ life with his talmidim, his disciples, what do we find frustrates him to no end? When his disciples lose faith in themselves….. Notice how many places in the accounts of Jesus’ life he gets frustrated with his disciples. Because they are incapable? No, because of how capable they are. He sees what they could be and could do, and when they fall short it provokes him to no end. It isn’t their failure that’s the problem, it’s their greatness. They don’t realize what they are capable of….God has an amazingly high view of people. God believes that people are capable of amazing things. [i]I’ve been told I need to believe in Jesus. Which is a good thing. But what I’m learning is that Jesus believes in me….God has faith in me.â€
“….left the future of the movement (the church) in their hands. And he doesn’t stick around to make sure they don’t screw it up. He’s gone. He trusts that they can actually do it.[/i]†-133-134
8. Provision is made in the redemptive work of the Lord Jesus Christ for the healing of the mortal body.(25) Prayer for the sick and anointing with oil are taught in the Scriptures and are privileges for the Church in this present age.(26) ([25] Matthew 8:16–17, [26] James 5:13–16)
9. The Church consists of all those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, are redeemed through His blood, and are born again of the Holy Spirit. Christ is the Head of the Body, the Church, (27) which has been commissioned by Him to go into all the world as a witness, preaching the gospel to all nations.(28) The local church is a body of believers in Christ who are joined together for the worship of God, for edification through the Word of God, for prayer, fellowship, the proclamation of the gospel, and observance of the ordinances of Baptism and the Lord’s Supper.(29) ([27] Ephesians 1:22–23, [28] Matthew 28:19–20, [29] Acts 2:41–47)
10. There shall be a bodily resurrection of the just and of the unjust; for the former, a resurrection unto life;(30) for the latter, a resurrection unto judgment.(31) ([30] 1 Corinthians 15:20–23, [31] John 5:28–29)
Rob Bell on Heaven, Hell, and Judgement, Velvet Elvis “Heaven is full of forgiven people. Hell is full of forgiven people. Heaven is full of people God loves, whom Jesus died for. Hell is full of forgiven people God loves, whom Jesus died for. The difference is how we choose to live, which story we choose to live in, which version of reality we trust. Ours or God’s.” – p. 146
“When people use the word hell, what do they mean? They mean a place, an event, a situation absent of how God desires things to be. Famine, debt, oppression, loneliness, despair, death, slaughter–they are all hell on earth. Jesus’ desire for his followers is that they live in such a way that they bring heaven to earth. What’s disturbing is when people talk more about hell after this life than they do about Hell here and now. As a Christian, I want to do what I can to resist hell coming to earth.” – p. 148
“The goal of Jesus isn’t to get into heaven. The goal is to get heaven here.” – p. 148
11. The second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ is imminent(32) and will be personal, visible, and premillennial.(33) This is the believer’s blessed hope and is a vital truth which is an incentive to holy living and faithful service.(34) ([32] Hebrews 10:37, [33] Luke 21:27, [34] Titus 2:11–14)
Based on this research, in the most loving way possible, I must say that I will not be using Nooma videos or any other teaching from Rob Bell, because it is clear from his writings that he does not hold to an orthodox view of Christianity. It is the most loving thing I can to to you to say that you should examine all teachings through the filter of the Bible, and if the teaching continues to be false you need to warn the preacher and then if he will not receive it, you should find another church.
In Christ,
Rev. John Chisham
pastorboy,
I must be ignorant or stupid, because I don’t see how the things that Bell says contradict your church’s Statement of Faith. In fact, most of them seem to support them.
Restatement of Truth is still Truth.
John,
Unfortunately all the quotes you have used from Rob can be and have been defended on this site for a long time.
Additionally this post is more about Kens lies not Robs orthodoxy or orthopraxy.
Phil I felt the same way the first time I read all of that on Johns blog.
*extends hand and then smacks you with it*
Sorry about the triple post…Make that quadruple.
BTW I’m still on vacation. In case you haven’t noticed. LOL
Chris,
Actually, that’s far more loving than anything any of the watchkitties have written. I happen to agree his analysis is wrong, but it is gracious.
It is much more gracious than the watchkitties. Agreed.
I don’t mean to have a lack of grace, but can you please show me how these quotes reinforce our statement of faith, or even scripture? I am shocked! To me, it seemed so clear! I mean, to call into question the virgin birth, saying Jesus’ father was named Larry…doesn’t that seem even the least bit sacrilidge to you? Doesn’t the statement about Jesus believing in us and not vice versa seem like a hermeneutical stretch? I really don’t get it.
pastorboy,
1. The “virgin birth” quote is out of context… he was saying “if” this then how would it effect your faith?
2.
This shows you lack a basic understanding of our relationship with Jesus…
The Gospel of John teaches us that Jesus could only do as He saw the Father do… Chapter 5 is full of this teaching. In that God so loved the world, so Jesus so loved the world.
Now, about Jesus believing in us… have you ever read John 2:23-25?
Though many believed in Jesus, Jesus knew their hearts and did not believe in them… pretty clear cut case there from scripture. In fact the word translated “entrust” is also often translated to be “believe”… go look it up.
Now, there are many other jumps and wrong conclusions you made earlier, but this should set your path to better hermeneutics as the path you are on now seems to be lacking… I do not mean that in an offensive way, but as an observation to your dialog here it seems you are lacking in very basic understandings as I stated…
Please take the time to look at the things I pointed out and you will see they are true.
I have confidence in God He will show you the truth.
iggy
pastorboy –
if you read on to the next page in Velvet Elvis, Bell reaffirms that he believes in the Virgin Birth and the Trinity. He has noted he was using the VB as an example of how to test what you know about your faith – what the Bible says vs. what we have filled in with “systems”, and in our discussion here, we have noted that his argument would have been better served with an example of old-earth vs. new-earth creationism.
No – as you have quoted it, it is out of context. Rather, it is similar to a traditional Messianic Christian interpretation of Rabbi and student, in which the “faith” one has in a disciple is in the power of God to work through them. He took this directly from a lesson taught by Ray Vanderlaan on a trip they took to Israel in 2003. Here is a link to RVL’s teaching page on the subject.
Erica, let me encourage you to come over to my side…where he doesn’t exist.
And pastorboy…wow. Lotsa words. I’m guessing you’re new to the site, since just about all that Rob Bell stuff has been discussed ad naseum here previously.
Perhaps we need to consider a “Before you comment on Pastor so-and-so, please read these posts and the comments therein” page.
LOL Julie…I am new to the site.
I guess I will have to agree to disagree on Rob Bell. It seems very clear cut to me that what he teaches, though it may be very attractive to people in his church, and may amaze us in the way he communicates it is not, in my opinion, rock solid theology or biblical. You talk about my hermeneutic- it is the grammatical-historical- And that is not the way Bell views scripture.
Iggy, I am saying just that, that Jesus knows our hearts and does not believe in us, because he knows our hearts are desperately wicked! What Bell appears to be saying is the opposite of that.
Anyway, apparently it has been discussed ad nauseum, all I was doing was saying way to go defending your pastor, Mrs. Martino, but to consider closely by using the Bible as a filter what he teaches. This is something I encourage my little flock to do weekly
Just for the record, Bell’s comment about Jesus believing in us annoys me too. I keep on thinking that the only reason God can use us is because we have the Holy Spirit working in us and on us.
There are four things I’d like to say/ask:
1. If Rob is questioning the virgin birth (and anyone who says he is, either never took a high school class on how to read or has an axe to grind) why do some of those who preach the “monergism of classic reformed theology”–which by the way begs the question what was preached before the reformation?–why do they care? I mean it won’t last. It will dry up and blow away.
2. Why do people (even people I like) think they can critique a book that they’ve never actually read completely? Why do they further think that because they disagree with it they can label anyone who likes it apostate?
3. Pastorboy, do you really think that I haven’t questioned it? That after being a preacherman (sorry I couldn’t resist) I just woke up one day and said in a zombie like voice, “There is one god and Rob is his prophet!”?
4. Is your annoyance because of your reformed theology? Have you looked at it and asked, “Could this be true?” or have you just rejected it outright? I’m not accusing and I’m certainly not looking to get into an all out debate about Rob but I am curios.
Question…did God trust (entrust, believe, etc.) Adam and Eve to keep and nurture and maintain the Garden?
Are we or are we not restored and redeemed to the shalom of the Garden?
Am I trustworthy in and of myself?
NO! NO! A HUNDRED TIMES NO!
But the redemption that Christ ushered into my life thru His life, His death and His resurrection has done more than rescue me from hell. That redemption has restored me to my relationship with my God. You are right, Matt, that it is the Holy Spirit that Jesus believes in (entrusts). And thru my redemption, the entrusted Holy Spirit dwells in me. So there has to be a point in my walk where I stop and say, “Wow, I’m an ass! I’ve been living this life for myself, forgetting the huge responsibility I have to let the Holy Spirit of the living God govern my conduct. I’ve been entrusted with this crazy gift!”
(or something like that).
It is not that Christ trusts me in and of myself. He trusts the redeemed, forgiven, Spirit-filled me to carry out His will and usher in His kingdom everywhere I go.
Believe me, this is a new concept for me as well. I grew up with an understanding of God as a disciplinarian who stood over me with a stick to whack me every time I goofed up. Total depravity, even in the life of believers, was emphasized more than a righteous standing before God in Christ.
Just a few thoughts…
Joe, I reject it because it because I do not agree with his hermeneutic, because of his casual and reckless use of scripture, and even the lack of use of scripture. I guess I have a reformed theology, but I base my life on, and test what people say (words do have meaning) by the grammatical, historical interpretation of the Bible.
That being said, I have honestly tried to read Rob’s books through with a non critical eye, however, I really cannot understand the way he writes or how he draws his conclusions. Honestly, it is unattractive stylistically to me. That being said, I might be wrong in the way I interpret what he says, but to my reading, he has some very unorthodox views and, as stated, I have chosen to disallow his books or videos for use in our studies or from our pulpit.
What denomination are you in, John?
Hi Joe-
I’m just annoyed by it. I’m not burning RB at the stake.
Yeah, I guess I am reformed. And I did read the whole book. That was one part that just annoyed me. Seemed a little too “feel good, let’s get pumped up people, ra ra, cheerleadery.”
Hey Matt,
What I am trying to get you to examine is the idea of the book outside of the reformed view? Did you step back and ask if the idea could be true or was it rejected because of the world view you bring to the book. I know I’ve done that a couple of times.
Joe,
I am CM&A
Cool, I had a really good friend who was CM&A when I was living in MD. Really good guy.
Hi Joe-
I read a lot of stuff that isn’t necessarily in line with what I believe. When I was in high school, I thought that the Republican Party was going to save America. I read a book by a Christian that really challenged that viewpoint and it changed me (for the life of me, I can’t remember the title). But it has changed my view of how Christians interact politically and whether we just swallow hook, line, and sinker whatever the religious right throws at us.
I also grew up listening to some crappy Christian music like Petra. In college, before it was cool for Christians to do alternative rock, I got exposed to stuff like The Choir, the 77s, The Prayer Chain, etc and discovered that Christian music could be really good and not mention Jesus every other line.
Not sure if that answered your question. I guess what I’m saying is that, yes, I have looked at other things from other perspectives and it has changed my viewpoint. However, the “Jesus believes in you” thing still doesn’t sit well with me or what I think scripture says.
Fair enough. I can’t believe you just slammed Petra.
I’m so happy to find another person who knows of The Prayer Chain! Those guys were too good for the Christian market, and were so under-appreciated. I would still put Mercury up there as one of the best albums I’ve heard, period.
I tell the college students I work with that they don’t know what good Christian music is anymore. The Christian bands that are presented as “alternative” nowadays are mostly sad imitations of standard MTV-fare.