Thank you for the response, please feel free to ask me questions about my belifs also. I will try to answer them as best as I can with what I have learned from my personal spiritual studies. I respect a man that is willing to present their beliefs and can articulate them, whether I agree with them or not. Interesting response……..thank you

F Whittenburg
http://www.christiannewbirth.com/whenfaithcame.html

Please don’t misunderstand me – I believe in a spiritual world/supernatural world/additional dimension/etc., based on these and other narratives in scripture. I just disagree that this is what Jesus is referencing in his comments to Pilate about the kingdom.

With the “third heaven”, Paul is referencing the cosmology of the Ancient world to which he belonged. The “First heaven” is that which we can see (the land, people, etc.), the “second heaven” is the water/abyss/chaos and air which cover the land, and the “third heaven” is the spiritual world in which one can ’see’ spirits. This could literally be another dimension, or it could be the supernatural reality in which he saw Jesus on the road to Damascus.

In your understanding of scripture Chris L, what is the appropriate term to describe this angelic spiritual realm “above”? Shambala? Narnia? Middle Earth? I am searching for some common ground here, but since you don’t like my interpertation of the spiritual world, you tell me what you think the appropriate word should be, in the Hebrew teaching of course.

I think you misunderstood me. I believe in a spiritual realm that we cannot see and that it is (scientifically) probably a function of additional dimensions. I do NOT, however, ascribe certitude to how it operates, including gender (hyper-masculine, etc.), as this is not made plain in scripture. All I disagreed with was the suggestion that Jesus’ discussion of ‘kingdom’ was relegated to that plane of existence (as evidenced by his teaching of ‘kingdom’ and the usage of ‘kosmos’, which we translate as ‘world’).

As for how heaven (shamayim in Hebrew) exists, I believe that it is an eternal existence with God. I believe that the “kingdom of God” (or “kingdom of Heaven” – they are interchangeable) began its existence here with Jesus, and that it is among us now, where things are as God would have them, but that it will reach perfection upon his return.

So, being ‘of the world’ is not a statement of dimensionality (or a statement of artistic culture), but rather it is a statement describing being bought into the systems by which things are run.”

Sorry it took so long to responed, Chris L. I was installing some kitchen cabinets for a buddy of mine this weekend and didn’t have the time till tonight to answer your post.
In my original post I was talking about an invisible “spiritual world” of actual activity, existing possibly in another dimension. The Bible plainly speaks of angelic activity operating in a spiritual world that is different from the natural world. Here are two examples:

Balaam and the donkey. By reading this story we can see that there was an angel that was standing in front of Balaam that he could not see, but his donkey could. As the story continues, God gives Balaam the ability to see with his eyes into the spiritual world. This story also tells about how God gave the donkey the ability to talk to Balaam. When the Lord releases our eyes, we can see into the spiritual world and according to this story, apparently animals can also.

Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face (Numbers 22:31).

The second story is about Elisha at Dothan.

And he said, Go and spy where he is, that I may send and fetch him. And it was told him, saying, Behold, he is in Dothan. Therefore sent he thither horses, and chariots, and a great host: and they came by night, and compassed the city about. And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do? And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them. And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, OPEN HIS EYES, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha (2 Kings 6:13-17).

These examples are not “world systems”, but actual angelic activity in another world (i.e. spiritual world, dimension, etc.)? These verses are not talking about superior “world systems” of feeding the poor, leading by serving, etc). This is talking about an actual invisible “world” that exist simultaneously with the “natural world”? I always heard this angelic realm called the “spiritual world”. For example, in the following verse, Was Philip “caught away in the Spirit” and taken to another “world system” where the homeless are feed, and the widows are taken care of, etc. or was he “caught away” into a spiritual dimension that was hid from the eunuchs eyes?

And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the SPIRIT of the Lord CAUGHT AWAY Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea (Acts 8:38-40 KJV).

How do you account for the “third heaven” that Paul spoke of in 2 Corinthians ?

It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the THIRD HEAVEN. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter (2 Corinthians 12:2).

Is the “third heaven” just another “world system” or an actual place? What is your understanding of what transpired at the Mount of Transfiguration? If you can’t explain them either, then how do you know my explination is wrong? The verses I quoted about Jesus saying he was from “above” do you think the word “above” is referring to a superior “world system” of feeding the sick, leading by serving, taking care of widows, etc. or an actual spiritual realm? A higher plane of reality than this physical world? Ezekiel was “caught away” by the hair of his head to a place the Bible says is “between heaven and earth” and shown the building of a temple. In your understanding of scripture Chris L, what is the appropriate term to describe this angelic spiritual realm “above”? Shambala? Narnia? Middle Earth? I am searching for some common ground here, but since you don’t like my interpertation of the spiritual world, you tell me what you think the appropriate word should be, in the Hebrew teaching of course. Do you believe, like John Lennon, that there is no heaven “above”?

F Whittenburg
http://www.christiannewbirth.com/whenfaithcame.html

Chris L said: “You’re missing a common grammatical device of two doublets, often used in Hebraic teaching. Breadth and length both go together to describe the cross-section (as if it were a wall).”

I thought Ephesians was written in Greek, I guess that is why I missed the interpertation of it through “hebraic teaching”…..

Whit, ‘Hebraic’ not only refers to linguistic matters, but also to thought patterns, and Jesus and his apostles were Hebrews, not Greeks. The first century linguistic situation with Greek was much like it is with English today – most people spoke Greek as a second (common) language, but retained their own traditional language as primary. There is debate over whether first-century Jews spoke Hebrew or Aramaic as their primary language, though most modern evidence (supported by the Dead Sea scrolls) supports it as having been Hebrew.

If you examine the scripture in question, the doublet of doublets is describing the love of Christ, not a ’scientific’ truth, as being insurmountable. The concept of ‘dimensionality’, as defined by modern science, didn’t come along for another 1,300 years or so.

In essence, Paul is describing a cross-section (breadth and length), and then describing how high far it goes up and how far it goes down.

I don’t believe my posts are “over the head” of most of the readers and commenters of this blog. I think you and Anon may be underestimating their intelligence…..

F Whittenburg
http://www.christiannewbirth.com/whenfaithcame.html

Good retort, Whit

I thought Ephesians was written in Greek, I guess that is why I missed the interpertation of it through “hebraic teaching”…..

Breadth and length also describes a 2-dimensional plane.

F Whittenburg
http://www.christiannewbirth.com/whenfaithcame.html

Verrrrry interesting.

While I believe there is Biblical evidence of dimensions beyond our own, I hesitate to be dogmatic about how it works, particularly in assigning esoteric titles (”hyper-masculine”, etc.) to them, which is the first step in creating a ’system’ out of them (which is what Anon is doing). Certainly, hyper-dimensionality removes the fixed variable of time and 3D space (which gives a shadow of an explanation to modernist-fueled paradoxes in the Bible).

However, I would also note that you’re doing a bit of proof-texting on the matter:

The Bible also add a fourth dimension called “depth” to the three standard dimensions (i.e. length, breadth, and height).

That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and DEPTH, and height; (Ephesians 3:17,18).

You’re missing a common grammatical device of two doublets, often used in Hebraic teaching. Breadth and length both go together to describe the cross-section (as if it were a wall). Height describes how high it goes and depth how low it goes – you’re reading too much into this passage, in which Paul is describing that one cannot go AROUND, OVER or UNDER the love of Jesus. From the NIV:

And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ

Maybe this hint will help, “let there be light”

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the DEEP. And the SPIRIT of God MOVED upon the face of the waters (Genesis 1:1,2).

Again, you’re missing a few things:

1) The evidence of God’s existence beyond time is in the first 4 words (in the English): In the beginning God.

2) The world was “formless and void” – tohu a vohu in the Hebrew, and the darkness was over the theum – the abyss – which some versions translate “the deep”. The ‘abyss’ – the deep – is seen as the source of chaos, which is the opposite of creation. This is why the Jews were afraid of large bodies of water, and why Jesus says that those who cause little children to stumble should have millstones tied ’round their neck and be tossed into the abyss. It is also where the beast in Rev 17 comes from. In short – “the abyss”, sometimes called “the deep” is a rich Hebrew cosmological concept – not a scientific reference to another dimension. [This is example of why it is important to examine usages of specific words across scripture (or in contemporary literature, if a word is unique) in the original language.]

3) It is possible that multiple dimensions might explain how God worked through men to create miracles, but ‘possibility’ (or ‘probability’) is not certitude, and we are wise to allow that room for error in interpretation.

4) You wrote:

The main problem that the present world has, is trying to take a knowledge that has come from a different world where time is irrelevant and tries to force it to fit in a world where time is relevant. Remember Jesus said that this world is not his world!

You are again missing the point Jesus is making regarding the kingdom (and it is possible you missed some earlier discussions on this). Where Jesus uses the phrase ‘of this world’, like in John 18:

Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

The word he uses is κοσμου, ‘kosmos’, which literally translates as ’system’. Had he meant the physical world, he would have used γην – ‘ge’ – the land. Kosmos is a Greek word which describes the systems by which things work. Jesus’ kingdom is not like the systems of this world, where physical strength, wealth, charisma and politics rule. Rather, it is where things are as God would have them, where the last are first, where leading is serving, and where the poor, the widow and the stranger are cared for – a completely different system.

So, being ‘of the world’ is not a statement of dimensionality (or a statement of artistic culture), but rather it is a statement describing being bought into the systems by which things are run. When the church trusts in political power to solve its problems, it is being ‘of the world’. When the church sends out invaders to “do God’s will” (as in the crusades), it is being ‘of the world’.

_________

So, in summation, while I agree that there is evidence in the Bible and in creation of dimensions beyond our own, you need to be careful in avoiding dogmatism and proof-texting in its regard…