11. I am aware it seems unaccountable to some how faith is attributed to the reprobate, seeing that it is declared by Paul to be one of the fruits of election; and yet the difficulty is easily solved: for though none are enlightened into faith, and truly feel the efficacy of the Gospel, with the exception of those who are fore-ordained to salvation, yet experience shows that the reprobate are sometimes affected in a way so similar to the elect, that even in their own judgment there is no difference between them. Hence it is not strange, that by the Apostle a taste of heavenly gifts, and by Christ himself a temporary faith, is ascribed to them. Not that they truly perceive the power of spiritual grace and the sure light of faith; but the Lord, the better to convict them, and leave them without excuse, instills into their minds such a sense of his goodness as can be felt without the Spirit of adoption. Should it be objected, that believers have no stronger testimony to assure them of their adoption, I answer, that though there is a great resemblance and affinity between the elect of God and those who are impressed for a time with a fading faith, yet the elect alone have that full assurance which is extolled by Paul, and by which they are enabled to cry, Abba, Father. Therefore, as God regenerates the elect only for ever by incorruptible seed, as the seed of life once sown in their hearts never perishes, so he effectually seals in them the grace of his adoption, that it may be sure and steadfast. But in this there is nothing to prevent an inferior operation of the Spirit from taking its course in the reprobate. Meanwhile, believers are taught to examine themselves carefully and humbly, lest carnal security creep in and take the place of assurance of faith. We may add, that the reprobate never have any other than a confused sense of grace, laying hold of the shadow rather than the substance, because the Spirit properly seals the forgiveness of sins in the elect only, applying it by special faith to their use. Still it is correctly said, that the reprobate believe God to be propitious to them, inasmuch as they accept the gift of reconciliation, though confusedly and without due discernment; not that they are partakers of the same faith or regeneration with the children of God; but because, under a covering of hypocrisy, they seem to have a principle of faith in common with them. Nor do I even deny that God illumines their minds to this extent, that they recognize his grace; but that conviction he distinguishes from the peculiar testimony which he gives to his elect in this respect, that the reprobate never attain to the full result or to fruition. When he shows himself propitious to them, it is not as if he had truly rescued them from death, and taken them under his protection. He only gives them a manifestation of his present mercy. In the elect alone he implants the living root of faith, so that they persevere even to the end. Thus we dispose of the objection, that if God truly displays his grace, it must endure for ever. There is nothing inconsistent in this with the fact of his enlightening some with a present sense of grace, which afterwards proves evanescent.

The reference is: Institutes III.2.11

If there is some reason to believe it is spurious then I would as that it be removed from the discussion thread.

Thanks

Bruce

Good spirit.

I am unwilling to die on this doctrinal hill. I see how the various camps come to their conclusions. I respect them and appreciate them. In my Baptist days I was not so kind. Arminianism was viewed as a sign of being unsaved.

We have the luxury in America to play the doctrinal games. I suspect when trial comes I won’t care what stripe a person is. Adversity and trial strips away all the stuff until we get down to whom it is really about ……Jesus.

I always remain your friend
Bruce

Most the time I do not even get into the “debate” of eternal security… again, I see that if one is asking that question there are other issues in play that need to be dealt with. In that I have lost friends who professed faith in Christ and walked away… Yet, there was a time I also almost walked away… if not for that one last prayer… as if in desperation… I called out for mercy to be shown how to live as a New Creation.

I believe many are New Creations, but have rejected false teachings and Grace still applies to them… yet also suspect many who profess Christ are not truly saved… as the scripture describes them. I will not judge their salvation, yet if I see the “signs” like hating one’s brother, I will most probably avoid them as they will do most anything to drag one into works and make one fall from Grace.

Again, I have many friends on both sides… My arminian friends get all bent out of shape when I speak eternal security, and my Calvinist friends get all bent when I speak of Free Will and both cannot see how I hold both to be true… yet I see that they compliment each other and do not contradict… I think the real issue is the understanding of foreknowledge and predestination, yet that is another topic and debate…

Bruce you have been a blessing to me… and really I do not judge one by their views or just their doctrinal stance, but by how one loves their brothers and sisters in Christ and how they seek to uplift and edify others. I only wish i can attain to a portion that you and others have…

Be Blessed,
iggy

I have never pronounced a sinner saved. I accept all who claim to be. I suspect when I get to the judgment bar some day I will be surprised at who is in and who is out.

As I get older I feel more acutely aware of my own spiritual condition. If man lives to 3 score and 10 that means I am 5/7ths gone. I am on the short side of the walk.

Bruce

There seems to be a line a man can cross where he loses what he once professed. I make no pretense as to knowing what/where that line is. I just know it is there and I have seen a good number of people cross it. (as a dog returning to his vomit)

I think it is that a man has not yet crossed the line from being a professor of said faith to a possessor of the Faith… meaning that some have not come to the full saving knowledge of truth. In that I do not see it as “losing” but that one must make sure they are not settling for less and have then been deceived and not attained to salvation.

It is not one who is that becomes one that is not… but one that is either deceived to think he already is, and is not, or one the is about to become and yet not is…

It is a warning to jump off the fence from death to life.

Be blessed,
iggy

My only prayer for you to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen. In that no man can remove you from your secure position (this is not the same as salvation… but in that you have security in your heart and mind as to believe on can lose the salvation of God and God alone, leaves one insecure as to their position with God.)

I do have many friends that do not hold to eternal security… or rather the “Arminian” view… in that I hope we both agree that it is God who makes all things grow… and if we are in Christ we are growing as God states… for He is faithful… if one is perishing, then He need re-examine his life to see what error he is in… and come back to truth. Also, if one is asking if one can lose salvation I ahve found over the last many years, that that person has other issues and is struggling with other things that bring about insecure issues of the heart. In my life I have helped many come to a deeper faith as they find they can walk in a clear conscience and a new heart as the New Creation they are.

Be blessed,
iggy

1.Once people are saved they are saved no matter how they live. As one person said years ago”a person can come to altar and pray the sinners prayer and be saved. If they walk out of the Church and never profess God’s name again in their life they are still saved.”

2.Some people profess to be saved who were never really saved.

I opted for #2 for much of my ministry.

Yet, there are all the warning verses. Are they for real? Does God really mean what he says?

I read as people try and explain or explain away the warning verses. Their arguments become complex and often convoluted. I ask myself is that how a first century Church would have understood those verses?

I reject the typical in/out of grace notion that many Arminians believe. But, I refuse to ignore the warning passages. I refuse to ignore that John in 1 John makes clear that there are certain characteristics in the life of those who SAY they have eternal life. One such mark is the love of the brethren.

There seems to be a line a man can cross where he loses what he once professed. I make no pretense as to knowing what/where that line is. I just know it is there and I have seen a good number of people cross it. (as a dog returning to his vomit)

I can not see how this negates grace. Calvinistic grace perhaps. But for the rest of us…….it in no way negates grace. Why would God take to heaven people who don’t want to be there?

Bruce