I noticed that too.

“We have created an incredibly dysfunctional institution.”

I still see “builders” operating in the church today doing all sorts of “building”, functional and dysfunctional.

A wise man once said, “One may build a church, but it will not be Christ’s church”.

F Whittenburg
http://www.christiannewbirth.com/whenfaithcame.html

we also have WAY to many mature Christians who are still looking for a place to be “feed”. We have created an incredibly dysfunctional institution.

I completely understand! We are about to go through some MAJOR changes at one of our venues. Everyone is too busy doing “ministry” to connect with non-believers. We are actually shutting down the building Monday-Saturday. Nothing is allowed to happen there. All ministry is now being moved to apartments, homes and work places. We have completely shut down 2 ministries because no one has come to Christ in those ministries for two years. We need to start taking drastic measures if we are going to stop playing church and BE the church.

Jazz… I would say that if we were living and doing relational evangelism, we would not be in decline. Most Christians have little to no non-believing friends in their life. When you ask them who they could lead to Christ, it is usually something like the mail-man or the Starbucks barista. If every Christian was investing in at least one non-believer, the church would look DRAMATICALLY different.

Yes, the canned bean incident really happened . . . It was two sweet ladies at my church who hate each other. One brought a jar of canned beans to a potluck, and the other lady (in charge of putting food out the table) for some reason didn’t want home-canned beans (health or safety related issues, I’m not sure). Anyway, big argument ensued, with the canned bean lady threatening to leave the church (the pastor talked her out of it). It was one of those things that I found absolutely hilarious, but I didn’t want to laugh too loud . . . anyway, enough gossip. The point here is that many Christians really don’t seem very urgent about spreading the gospel. Sad, IMHO.

Amen, Iggy! Good reminder! The pastors job is to show the congregation how to have a true relationship with our heavenly Father through Jesus Christ, not to become that relationship and the congregations “spiritual father”.

Feed the FLOCK OF GOD which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over GOD”S HERITAGE, but being ensamples to the flock. And when the chief Sheperd shall appear, ye shall recieve a crown of glory that fadeth not away (1 Peter 5:2-4 KJV).

I think too many churches today have members that are “children of the pastor” instead of “children of God”, born of the pastor, instead of born of the Spirit.

F Whittenburg

I also think that many “pastors” try to be the Holy Spirit in others lives… it is amazing that some want to control others so much. They seemed to have forgotten they are pastors for the Chief Pastor… and not the Chief Pastor themselves.

iggy

These are the people who fight about whose canned beans are better, and threaten to leave the church because their food accidently wasn’t set out at a potluck.

Classic. Simply classic. I know Christians like this. One stormed out of practice for praise band because we wouldn’t give her her own solo microphone….(ps, she can’t sing, she’s tone deaf…). I mean..it’s worship singing, not solo performance singing. We weren’t being mean about it, we just wanted her to sing with the other people.

I’ve seen the potluck thing too, total shenanigans.

Joe

Amen Iggy, many times programs and groups in the church are designed to be the “Comforter” instead of the Holy Spirit.

F Whittenburg

I really appreciate the Christians I know who get out and knock on doors and share the gospel. If every single Christian could do that, it would be great!

YES, I am seriously thinking I should start preaching that too many of our people are too busy doing “church stuff.” of course by “church stuff” I mean all the stuff that is good, but not best – or missional.

I often state that I am against a Program Driven Church…
Yet, I am also quick to state I am not against “programs”….

The big difference to me is the focus of the program. Is it just an alternative to the world? and if it is, which does not mean “bad”, is it a pale shadow of the worlds version?

Also, is its focus pushing out or looking inward. Is it just to get people in the doors or to get those in the doors to go out and live lives in such a way that they show Jesus.

I do agree that some churches have programs for everything… even alternative AA meetings which do the same thing. I can see if one has fundamental differences with AA to have a difference, but to just do a “Christian”version of AA seems redundant and a waste of resources.

Another thing about “programs” is, do they keep people out of doing ministry? I went to one PDC (purpose/program) and had to jump through so many hoops and take so many classes just to lead a bible study, I just gave up. After I left that church I started the church plant… but it took me a year to finish all the hoops before I could even be considered a “legit” bible study of that church! Meanwhile I went to the church I go to now and attended it twice and the third time sat down with the pastor who asked me to be an intern pastor at that church… One I see followed “programs” the other the “Holy Spirit…

Which is my biggest thing… when programs replace the Holy Spirit…

I hope I am coming across clear here.

iggy