…that this is rather sad… Granted it has been done before, down under, but you have to wonder how something like this happens (apart from the sinful nature of man).
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“May the Force be with you”
“And also with you”
“I find your lack of tithe disturbing…”
Yes, I heard about this on the radio. The DJ’s also read the “Jedi prayer”, which was long, and a rip-off from one of St. Francis of Assisi’s prayers, with Stars Wars wording thrown in. It was hilarious, in a sad sort of way.
The ODMs will connect this to the PD/emerging/emergent church in 3…2…1…
Phil,
It should read, “Disturbing, you’re lack of tithe, find I.
Matt B,
Thanx for the idea. You’re sooooo right! The doctrines of the Jedi Church seem to have a lot in common with the Emergents.
aren’t the Jedi’s teaching that we should be good to one another and “do unto another as you would have them do unto you.”
I don’t think that you should be attacking them for reaching out and serving God in their own way! Their worship services don’t look exactly like yours but that doesn’t mean that their not really seeking to do what’s right.
Inquisitor,
I couldn’t have said it better myself.
Gee, that didn’t take long.
Tim
The point though is missed as if on queue…
It seems lost that the difference is that Jesus is missing from the Jedi church…
They seem to want to mock all… though the one that follows Jesus may be using old or new expressions of faith to show their love and devotion to Jesus…
But we all knew it was coming… and it did… I guess it is like Ingrid teaches, Contemplative prayer is find if it from my Puritans (even though they took it from Hindus and Buddhists)
iggy
Iggy seems to forget that McLaren believes in Muslim and Buddhist followers of Jesus despite the fact that Jesus is missing from both of those religions. So if McLaren can believe in Muslim and Buddhist followers of Jesus then it is certainly no stretch to believe in ‘Jedi Followers of Jesus’.
http://www.alittleleaven.com/2008/01/jedi-jesus.html
You called it, Matt. And it didn’t even take that long.
When folks are so deluded by hatred or fear it quickly reaches a state where friend can’t be discerned from foe, and friendly fire rules the day. It’s no wonder fewer and fewer take the ODM’s seriously – which is sad, because a day will likely come when true discernment is needed, and the boys who cried “wolf!” ten thousand times too many will be ignored…
Chris L,
So then, do you believe it is ‘crying wolf’ to say that McLaren is teaching false doctrine when he says that there is a such thing as a ‘Muslim follower of Jesus’? Those are his words not mine.
Personally, I’ve read and heard enough of McLaren to know that he is a foe and not a friend.
If you disagree then show me from God’s word that McLaren is correct.
Chris R,
First off you are wrong that Jesus is missing in the Muslim religion… he is there as well as Mary and Joseph. There are also sects of Buddhist that believe in Jesus… So your understanding of world religions is way off…
There is a difference in their interpretation of who Jesus is and what He did… and that is what separates them form true faith In Jesus of the Bible…
Again, in all integrity show me the direct quote Brian states such a thing… I keep giving this challenge and all I get is some Jesus/Jedi t-shirt as proof… LOL!
So, are you up to backing your claims instead of just throwing out accustations like Hilter did against the Jews?
iggy
I might add though that the Jesus/Jedi t-shirt is the strongest proof so far as far as the accusations against Brian Mclaren I ahve seen so far…. LOL!
Chris R,
I’m taking off for the evening, and probably most of tomorrow.
First, it would not surprise me in the least if you’re stating McLaren’s “position” in a way he would disagree with, as it is y’alls modus operandi.
Second, you’ve created such a boogeyman out of “emergent/emerging” that pretty much everything you spew as connected to it makes you look all the more silly…
Thirdly, I know enough emergent/emerging folks (and believe it or not, most of the non-bloggers have little clue who BMac is) who would have no problem seeing how sad these “Jedi” are, that this bit of slander (that they would somehow support these deluded star wars nerds) would truly hurt to know it came from someone who claims to be a Christian…
This might as well say, “What you’re forgetting is that Brian McLaren’s eats babies and kicks puppies, or is it the other way around?”
“I must add, though, that I don’t believe making disciples must equal making adherents to the Christian religion. It may be advisable in many circumstances to help people become followers of Jesus and remain within their Buddhist, Hindu, or Jewish contexts.”
—Brian McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy, p. 260
“…many Hindus are willing to consider Jesus as a legitimate manifestation of the divine… many Buddhists see Jesus as one of humanity’s most enlightened people…. A shared reappraisal of Jesus’ message could provide a unique space or common ground for urgently needed religious dialogue—and it doesn’t seem an exaggeration to say that the future of our planet may depend on such dialogue. This reappraisal of Jesus’ message may be the only project capable of saving a number of religions.”
––Brian McLaren, The Secret Message of Jesus, p. 7
Chris R.,
If the ODMs limited the discernment to critiques of McLaren and quit with the you tube trolling, name-calling, ad-hominems, distortions, and general lack of basic journalistic integrity, then I’d be on-board 100 percent.
As it is, I sadly have no respect for people who call Miley Cyrus “the personification of the flesh” accuse Warren of telling parents to lie to their kids, and connect a Wiccan pastor to the Emerging conversation because he says in an interview that he identifies with them.
I am sympathetic to the message but have my suspicions regarding the integrity of some ODMs.
Scroll through the last twenty posts on this site. How many have defended McLaren?
So you equate “common ground” as they are already saved? or that Brian is stating that all religions that have Jesus in them mean they are saved?
You can’t be serious! LOL!
What Brian is stating that if we see that people already have a “Jesus” view, if we then use that as common ground, they might become saved through the Jesus of Scripture.
You are taking this way out of context… sorry… I liked you Jedi/Jesus better… it was more thoughtful… and made more sense than your denial of God working in unbelievers before they get saved… like Cornileus in Acts 10…
Do you really believe in the Sovereignty of God? I mean you protect His truth and even protect God Himself… you a mere man protecting what the Bible states protects us… do you not see the absurdity in that?
iggy
“I must add, though, that I don’t believe making disciples must equal making adherents to the Christian religion. It may be advisable in many circumstances to help people become followers of Jesus and remain within their Buddhist, Hindu, or Jewish contexts.â€
—Brian McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy, p. 260
Does anyone know where I can find information on Brian McLaren’s understanding on the “kingdom of God”? I have been in discussion on another post about just what is the “kingdom of God”. I would be interested to know what commenters on this site think the “kingdom of God” actually is. Will getting other religion’s to “follow Jesus” without being “born again” manifest the “kingdom of God” that Jesus spoke about? Here is my understanding of the “kingdom”.
Jesus said the “Kingdom of God” is something that is “entered” thru the “spiritual newbirth”, not “created”.
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot ENTER into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again (John 3:5-7 KJV).
The “kingdom of God” is also something that enters us.
And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! For behold, the kingdom of God IS WITHIN YOU (Luke 17:20,21 KJV).
What did Jesus say is the real “kingdom of God”?
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in THE HOLY GHOST (Romans 14:17 KJV)
The Muslims, Buddhist, Hindhu’s, etc. do believe in Jesus, but do not believe in being “born again” by the Holy Ghost, so how can “the church” partnering with them build any “kingdom of God” that the Bible speaks of?
All I see is churches doing a Peace Corp, Salvation Army, Green Peace, sorta thing and calling it the “kingdom”. That’s it. All fine endevors and pursuits and should help make the world a better place to live, but this is not what Jesus called the “kingdom of God”.
F Whittenburg
http://www.christiannewbirth.com
I remember a young liberal/emergent seminarian (his description of himself) who gleefully quoted from the final star wars movie this line:”only a sith speaks in absolutes”
To this I replied “then a sith Yahweh is”
First off I believe that this is a joke more than anything I will give them that benefit of the doubt. If it is not a joke then they need shock treatments or something similar.
That being said; you guys are like alleycats waiting to pounce. As soon as one of the feared fundies makes a comment out come iggy and reed and the rest of the mangy(judging from their photos) bunch to attack.
Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism do not accept the Christ of the Scripture. They accept Jesus the good teacher/philosopher/pseudo-prophet. If the Spriit is working in men before they profess Jesus, and the flawed theory presented here is supposed to be evidence of this fact, then why haven’t there been mass conversions from these religions? Such conversions should have been goign on for decades if not centuries.
Virtually all who adhere to these religions died or will die in their belief.
(Cornelius is a good example of election to be sure.)
Islam may have believe in some of the Bible but it is their re-constructed version,e.g. Ishmael was the one on Moriah with Abraham,not Isaac.
God help us.
Priest; vox exsisto vobis
Cong; et cum spiritu tuo
I believe Vader was tridentine.
Chris R,
And once again you rip him out of context…
It goes on to read:
So to make it sound like Brian is stating all religions are the same is really, really dishonest.
iggy
“Vincent Donovan captured exactly what I mean in Christianity Rediscovered:â€â€¦ do not try to call them back to where they were, and do not try to call them to where you are, as beautiful as that place might seem to you. You must have the courage to go with them to a place that neither you nor they have been before.’ Good missionary advise, and a beautiful description of the unpredictable process of evangelization, a process leading to the new place were none of us has ever been before.”
Hello Iggy,
Maybe you can shed some light on this or explain to me what “the new place” is that McLaren says “none of us have ever been before”? I had a “caught away in the Spirit” (white light) experience and taken to a “place”. I wrote about the experience in my ebook When Faith Came, and some of what I learned as a result of the visit to that place. Just because McLaren hasn’t been to a “new place” doesn’t mean others haven’t. What’s he talking about?
F Whittenburg
http://www.christiannewbirth.com
Doggone it! This comment thread started out so well with the Star Wars parody lines. Then it started getting relevant.
FW,
It means that we often play the holy spirit and God might have other plans for that person and take you with them…
I think it is more letting God be God and not assuming we know all the next steps as we evangelize other… we are so programed to teach other the “doctrines” when Jesus stated to “teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.” Notice it is not about “doctrines” but obeying Jesus…
In that a person learns to obey Jesus he will naturally learn doctrines… (Matt 28: 19-20)
We tend to hold people back when the bible teaches “His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.” (2 Peter 1:3)
If a person has received all the divine power for a life of godliness through the knowledge of him that called us” I think that too many times we get in the way and mess that up… making baby believers trust us instead of God through Jesus…
I see that is the sort of thing Brian is alluding to. It is a place we have never been before…
Also, if you and I decided to go somewhere on a missions trip, I think that since both of us have never been there before, God would bring us to places both within and externally we have never been before…
I see it as a glorious trust in what God has for all of us if we let Him Be God.
be blessed,
iggy
The disclaimer is meant for the critics who claim all emerging people do not know how to read and cross reference…
(note: i assumed some that read here are old enough to look scriptures up and cross reference them themselves, yet I have found out recently that some are too lazy to look things up so they can cross reference and would rather criticize others instead of going to the Bible and study it themselves…)
this, of course, coming from the guy who uses scripture to justify gay bashing. It takes alot more than a picture to make someone “mangy”
OK you have your point Christ…. but you really misses it again… I don’t fear fundies, you guys fear me and worry that your God can’t stand up for Himself… so you protect him like a glass globe… and your “truth” so fragile it is like a crystal wine glass on the edge of a table…. your fear is that it will all come crashing down if you don’t protect your god and your truth.
I don’t fear you as my God protects me and I stand on His Truth that also defends me.
That is the huge difference between you and me is…
You fear, I do not…
be blessed,
iggy
” You must have the courage to go with them to a place that neither you nor they have been before.’ ”
That sounds like something Rev. Jim Jones might have said?
Can the Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim teach the Christian a better way to “follow Jesus”? Can other religions teach the Christian a “new way” to follow Jesus?
Thank you for the response,Iggy.
I probably need to get a copy of the book and read it in the full context. Actually the two excerpts from his book Generous Orthodoxy posted in this comment section are the only things I have ever read from his writings. Does he do any deeper writing on spiritual matters? I am curious on his understanding of the New Jereusalem and his understanding of the temple (Ezekiel 8:3 KJV) and how it relates to the Christian’s “spiritual newbirth”. Do you know if McLaren has ever been there before? Where did his “spiritual newbirth” take place, and the “spiritual circumscion” performed. I am curious if he has had any of the same spiritual experiences as me. Has he wrote anything on this? I have not ever read any of his material. What book of his would be the best to find that information of the depth of his spiritual experiences.
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel (Hebrews 12:22-24).
And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her. The LORD shall count, when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there. Selah (Psalms 87:5,6).
By his books and teachings, Do you think McLaren is born from “Mother Earth” and a stranger to New Jereusalem or born from New Jeruseleum our “birthplace” and a stranger and pilgrim on the earth?
So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall NO STRANGERS PASS THROUGH her any more (Joel 3:17).
For through him we both have access BY ONE SPIRIT unto the Father. NOW therefore ye are NO MORE STRANGERS and foreigners, BUT FELLOWCITIZENS with the saints, and of the household of God; (Ephesians 2:18,19).
Apparently, by McLarens quote you posted, McLaren is seeking someplace he has never been. I wonder what McLaren’s level of courage is to go to someplace he has never been =)
F Whittenburg
http://www.christiannewbirth.com
FW,
If that is what you got from what I stated, you really missed the point… It is Jesus I am saying follow; not a man… and I never stated other religions can teach us a “new way” to follow Jesus… as far as i follow this thread you are the first to state that.
I am saying that Jesus can live by the Power of the Holy Spirit in a person who lives in a Muslim country or Buddhist country or in India and live as a Christian amongst them..
I see that as we enter the Kingdom… as it is here and now and within us… we are entering places we have not been and the one leading us is the Holy Spirit.
iggy
This is getting pretty ridiculous guys.
It’s obvious that Bmac, when understanding all he wrote on the matter, is talking about how these people who are becoming Christians are inexorably tied to their cultural biases. There are those who have fellowship with the Holy Spirit, through Spiritual rebirth (born again), and of course worship Jesus, but still are immersed in their hindu, or muslim, or whatever culture. Because that’s what is around them.
A good example is ME, or any of us. I am American. I am super American. So overtly American in fact that it’s kind of ridiculous, to non-americans. Therefore, I am an American Christian. I have that culture about me and all around me. I do things like Americans, practice American (western) traditions, and I understand and fellowship with God/Jesus through that cultural filter and bias. You can’t deny it. We all do it. No matter what, while we are on this earh, we are tied to the cultue we grew up in and accustomed to. And we bring that ‘baggage’ with us to God. But God isn’t concerned with what I wear, or whatever stupid American holidays we have, or dumb American idioms I have, or American whatever that’s all around me and permeating my life because that’s where I live, and that’s my culture. He’s concerned with whether He knows me, and I know Him. Personally. Lovingly. Savingly.
There are, for example, so many Muslims who dress like Muslims, speak in Arabic, follow many Muslim customs, and in ever way act traditionally “Muslim”, but follow Jesus Christ as savior, as God, and have the Holy Spirit within them. We know this to be true because missionaries report it, if anyone’s listening that is. They are cultural Muslims, and spiritually they are Christian. They have that Muslim “air” about them, but that’s not their ‘religion’ so to speak. This is what Brian is talking about.
If you can meet someone eye to eye, with who they are and where they come from, and say to them “Come follow me [As I follow Christ], and you can come to an understanding with them that, “hey you don’t have to be uber American like me, or at all American, but you have to follow Jesus Christ, He is the Way…” then that is a wonderful stepping stone in evangelism. God is beyond cultures, beyond all of that. What counts at the End, and what matters truly is Jesus Christ, the Real Jesus Christ.
Also, it’s obvious Bmac is talking about using other religions knowledge of Jesus, be it twisted, incomplete, totally incorrect, or what have you, and using that as a starting point in evangelism. Finding that ‘common ground’ IS important. “Hey, you know this ____ about Jesus, but let me tell you what all I know about Him, and let’s see what you think of that, huh?”
I’m an American. If a Arabic man came to me and said “I want you to follow Jesus Christ, and you must dress this way, act this way, worship this specific style, and practice my traditions (all with a overt muslim taste/flare to them)” I’d probably give them a weird look and walk off.
That’s what Bmac is getting at.
I think some are missing the forrest and the trees here guys.
Love,
Joe
Yeah…kinda incoherent, I know…but I wrote it once already..and Internet Explorer locked out when I tried to post it…so this was my second ‘go’ at it. Plus it’s like 1 am…and it’s been a rough night out here. I’m sure someone will figure out what I was trying to say lol. I just had to get it out there, or it would have bugged me to death.
Joe
Exactly…
In response to Pastorboy and Ingrid – I posted links to Emerging churches that made definitive and thoroughly biblical truth declarations –
No response was forthcoming…
Neil
I concur that you missed the point. I’m no fan of McClaren overall, I think he’s swung the pendulum too far… but it did need swinging.
For too long missions has been the exportation of the Gospel AND the Western Cultural expression of it. To allow the Gospel to grow within another culture is the point I think he’s trying to make.
Neil
Chris P.,
For the second time I will ask you to argue your points without becoming ad hominem. We are implementing a higher standard on this site and name calling (from either side to either side) is inappropriate.
Neil
As for the Jedi Church – to me it looks like a hobby gone bad…
Neil
“Yeah…kinda incoherent”
Not at all, Joe, made perfect sense to me!
Joe,
You made sense to me!
I have found that if one has a judgmental spirit there is not much that can change that persons mind… not even Truth…
It is sad how they claim truth, yet cannot comprehend things they read… it shows in how they read the bible and in how they read literature…
I was tested as having very high reading and comprehension as a young kid… in fact I used to tutor my honor student girl friend as a D student to help her understand literature in high school… and she still could not understand things as she read them… metaphors were lost on her. So intelligence has very little to do with understanding. I see these guys are not stupid, yet I wonder at their inability to take something in context… Maybe the hatred of contextualization goes very deep! LOL!
But I see over and over that they take a statement that has before it disclaimers and after more explainaiton… and they ignore all and then create a whole new context on what they quoted… and then give no answer if it is pointed out. They will not. Pride blinds people.
iggy
This thread supports my theory that, according to some people, Brian McLaren is to blame for everything.
Phil,
I think it’s more like “Emerging/Emergent” is to blame for anything and everything. It’s all very “Lee Harvey didn’t shoot Kennedy” to me. i.e “Ecumenical Church of Deceit”, that’s very conspiratorial based on little or no evidence. I mean sure, I’ve read the articles on Aprising about it, but it’s really all guilt by association stuff.
One time, my traditional protestant church showed a Rob Bell Nooma (the fire one…) video during the service as a lead-in to what the pastor was going to speak on…
I’m sure we’d be considered “emergent” by the ODMs, because of that.
It really seems like a witch hunt to me.
Joe
Iggy said:”I am saying that Jesus can live by the Power of the Holy Spirit in a person who lives in a Muslim country or Buddhist country or in India and live as a Christian amongst them..”
Understood and I agree.
Iggy said: “If that is what you got from what I stated, you really missed the point… It is Jesus I am saying follow; not a man… and I never stated other religions can teach us a “new way†to follow Jesus… as far as i follow this thread you are the first to state that.”
Hello Iggy,
The quote that I was referring to was the one by McLaren, not you. What I responded to you with, was THANKS for providing the quote and the source!
McLarens quote: †You must have the courage to go with them to a place that neither you nor they have been before.’ â€
That sounds like something Rev. Jim Jones might have said?
Can the Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim teach the Christian a better way to “follow Jesus� Can other religions teach the Christian a “new way†to follow Jesus?
FW response to Iggy in the post:
“Thank you for the response,Iggy.
I probably need to get a copy of the book and read it in the full context. Actually the two excerpts from his book Generous Orthodoxy posted in this comment section are the only things I have ever read from his writings. Does he do any deeper writing on spiritual matters? I am curious on his understanding of the New Jereusalem and his understanding of the temple (Ezekiel 8:3 KJV) and how it relates to the Christian’s “spiritual newbirthâ€. Do you know if McLaren has ever been there before? Where did his “spiritual newbirth†take place, and the “spiritual circumscion†performed. I am curious if he has had any of the same spiritual experiences as me. Has he wrote anything on this? I have not ever read any of his material. What book of his would be the best to find that information of the depth of his spiritual experiences.”
If you go back and look at all my previous posts and comments on other posts, as far as I know, I haven’t even talked about McLaren until now and in response to a quote by him, YOU posted. I then stated I need to read his book myself to see it’s full context. What is your problem with that? I never stated you quoted anything!
I also just had to deal with some condescending garbage from Zan and Rick on another post that I made that was suppose to be edifying and instructive and was taken by them to be negative.
Joe Martino asked me one time, “What was my agenda”?
When I come to a blog, I first listen for awhile to the posts, looking for some spiritual wisdom. If I hear some, I ask specific questions to see the level of spiritual understanding on those topics, maybe I can learn something (Proverbs 9:9 KJV). If I find none, I try to leave some wisdom on those topics that I have learned in my spiritual journey that may help them. Sometimes they can be controversial. Truth be known, I probably am walking in “the way of Jesus” just as much as anybody on this site by doing that. I am just on a different “Jesus path” than everyone else, I guess. What would Jesus do?
And it came to pass, that after three days they found him (Jesus) in the temple, sitting in the midst of doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers (Luke 2:46 KJV).
These scriptures that I quote are my treasure that I wished to share with the people on this blog. I take scripture that I feed on and break it open how I understand it and attempt to share it with others. I think now, I need to put my treasures back in my pocket. When it gets to the point that everyone is taking my posts to be constantly negative, it is time for me to leave.
Example: When I tried to explain how Mary was with child by the Holy Ghost on a previous post, something spiritual and edifying to me, the response I got from Joe Martino was “so are you saying God had sex with Mary, do you think God has body parts”? What kind of garbage response is that? I think I have now worn out my welcome. Chris L, thanks for letting me comment.
I think I will journey north for awhile…..
F Whittenburg
http://www.christiannewbirth.com