I think it’s best to close this thread for now…

Boy, doesn’t that type of argument sound silly?

Yes you do! = )

iggy

Boy, doesn’t that type of argument sound silly?

Almost as silly as the name you chose while making a strawman.

Now how about we go back to the heart of the issue.

Either justify sniping at a ministry for doing something about pornography while you do very little as something other than foolish shenanigans, or show that WOTM has some kind of moral authority on the matter from which to criticize XXXChurch.

Because you’ve done neither.

So, I guess the question is this:

If I was able to find it in 12 seconds, why wasn’t Tim able to find it before starting this post?

Uh, “Probably because it’s an Australian book store” -

How does the fact that it’s an Australian book store make it harder to notice the word pornography in bold and how does it make it harder to click the link and find the video?

But since you still won’t admit your bias led you to shoddy research (which you wouldn’t stand for in the ODMs), I guess I’ll just have to lower the standards of this discussion to what you seem to want to talk about:

How many videos has Tim Reed produced to help people with a pornography addiction:

http://www.google.com/search?as_q=pornography&hl=en&num=10&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=tim+reed&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&cr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&as_rights=&safe=images

Google says he’s done nothing (although I didn’t actually look at the search, just copied from the address bar)

Boy, doesn’t that type of argument sound silly?

I clicked on the link that YOU provided, and lo and behold, there is the exact link I was talking about in the 10th spot. If you click on it, and look for the word pornography in the site (Again, it’s in BOLD), you’ll easily find their CD called ‘Slaying the Dragon’. Same as at the top of the page.

So, once again the question, how did you miss this if you were really looking?

Probably because its an Australian book store. If that’s your answer to what WOTM is doing then I suppose you’re agreeing with my “next to nothing” analysis of their work in porn addiction.

The vast majority of what I posted here was not about WOTM or about xxxchurch. It was about you guys here.

Wow, its almost like I never wrote:

You know with (my)Truthmatters continued insistence on ignoring the issue at hand in order to smear this entier site as ODMs I’d almost think this is one of the many ODMs who have tried to make that point. Over and over again.

If you’ll look at my first comment (realizing that I was gone most of the weekend and most of today):

I’m not sure how much we really need to try to look for heretics of our own

In fact, my first thought upon reading the article, until more context was provided was “why on earth are we comparing WotM and XXXChurch?” What is the point? Their general niche audiences are quite different.

It was not until I found the links and discussion on the sniping from Todd F toward xxxchurch that I even understood the context.

So yes, TM, had I written the article I probably would have made the context a bit clearer and soft-pedaled any comparison. Even so, I thought Tim did clear this up in the comments, and that today’s back and forth over the definition of “nothing” was not all that productive.

An interesting note – after reading the article, I did a bunch of generic Googling (porn recovery addiction recovery Christian, and a mixture of those terms) and never came up with either ministry in the first few pages – though on Yahoo I got a banner for xxxchurch in one of the searches. Additionally, 3 or 4 of the resources in the first few pages were ministries that xxxchurch were pointing people towards. That’s just data – not analysis of the data.

I would say that both ministries have their places and that sniping back and forth isn’t all that productive between them. Both have had successful and effective programs, and both have had some that I have questioned (Wally & Pete, the banana thing, the Bullhorn response), and I think there’s room enough for both in reaching out to those struggling with this type of addiction.

I want to say something that I think only Neil gets so far:

The vast majority of what I posted here was not about WOTM or about xxxchurch. It was about you guys here.

Personal opinions….

I like WOTM and I think Todd can be a little snooty sometimes.

I like what xxxchurch is doing in general. I don’t like the idea of Ron Jeremy, or the phallic symbol, but look through my posts and you’ll NEVER find me accusing them of not doing anything, not doing enough, or not doing as much as WOTM, even though most of your responses to me have been in that direction.

Almost all I’ve written is to get you to see that you are behaving just like the ODMs.

Want proof:(Just answer to yourself, ’cause I know you won’t answer me)

What if Ingrid of Slice had written an article stating that xxxchurch does no evangelism, and then given a link exactly like the one Tim gave. And in that link, on the very first page, was a link to the evangelism resources that xxxchurch has.

Would you guys defend her the way you’re defending Tim? Would you accept that she had tried really hard to find it but just missed it? Somehow, I don’t think that you would. I think you would use it as an example of how OMDs twist the truth. But yet you can’t see that you’re doing the same thing.

And furthermore, what if a lot of the posts in the comments section starting comparing how much envangelism resources WOTM has vs. how many xxxchurch has. You can’t tell me you would stand for that (And quite frankly, you shouldn’t)

This bias is really showing. (And, for the record, I don’t think it’s wrong to have a bias – it’s just not intellectually honest to have a bias and claim not to be)

So, answer this honestly (and to yourselves please – ’cause if you reply to me you’ll just try to win an argument) –

Would you defend Ingrid if she did what Tim did, or would you expose her?

I agree that this is going nowhere – arguing over “nothing” vs. “Google shows me nothing” (completely missing the point of the post) ad nauseum is pointless. If nothing changes in this thread, I will close it later tonight…

The very fact that he was “corrected” illustrates another significant difference between us and the two ODM’s we address most often – they do not allow comments, so they do not allow themselves to be corrected – as this thread has “corrected” Tim.

Which is one way of maintaining accountability.

Tim, here’s what you wrote while I was gone:

Truthmatters,
Do you work for WOTM? Because you seem to be defending them quite heartily for a neutral third party.

FWIW the 8th result down is a youtube video, and I don’t click on cache to find something that used to be there. In fact when I hit ctrl-f and search for “dragon” on the google page, there’s nothing there. SO the title of the book isn’t showing up in the search results.

Since (my)Truthmatters likes to throw around accusations about me so much, here’s a s/s of what I get on google results. Count down 8 responses you’ll see a youtube video.

I clicked on the link that YOU provided, and lo and behold, there is the exact link I was talking about in the 10th spot. If you click on it, and look for the word pornography in the site (Again, it’s in BOLD), you’ll easily find their CD called ‘Slaying the Dragon’. Same as at the top of the page.

So, once again the question, how did you miss this if you were really looking?