Thanks for your answer.

I had a goatee before goatees were emerent! But then I guess that’s not the perception now.

8^)>

Now some would cry foul, that this is like a puppet and all of that rhetoric but I hope we can avoid downgrading each other’s perspectives in such a way.

Anyway, I would argue man has a will and makes choices – it is simply not free.

That’s what I find so surprising about this site. Everyone has their own POV, but no one backs it up with scripture.
That reveals a lot you know? – Inquisitor

Apparently you missed my posts aas well…

I’m wondering how you would unpack “some level of free-will”.

I cannot decide to be a bird. I have no “free will” to be one.

I cannot say “I believe in Jesus, so God must take me”.

Rather, per a number of Biblical examples (Esther and Jonah most readily come to mind), God allows for a band of choices which fit within His will, and He permits us to choose within that band.

Because we have all sinned, we do not have the “choice” to enter the kingdom apart from grace – ill-deserved favor granted by God.

Because of the repeating pattern of redemption and salvation in scripture, the primary example I look to is in the Tenth Plague and the Exodus:

God said He would kill every firstborn child and beast in the land of Egypt. However, those who would exhibit the smallest amount of faith in Him by placing the blood of a lamb on their doorposts would be spared from this horrible punishment. Was their salvation a result of God’s promise or their “work”? Following the logical pathway – without God’s promise – His permission -no “work” could save.

Or, a similar example – if I was drifting alone in the middle of the ocean, I would die within 48 hours from dehydration, exposure or drowning. If God showed up in a boat and hung a ladder over the edge of the boat and asked me to climb aboard, would God’s having a boat or my crawling into it be the saving factor?

Now – where things get squirrley is when we start talking about God’s foreknowledge in relation to time, and I would say that God gave me the limited free-will to choose (to get into the boat or not – I didn’t have the option of building my own boat or waiting for someone else’s boat) to get in or not – AND NO MATTER WHICH I chose, God ‘foreknew’ it, because both futures existed before I selected one.

Tim: I quoted Scripture and it was more than 12 words. I want credit. 8^)>

You get an A+. Wait a second, does your emoticon have a goatee? Are you going all emereent on us?

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Iggy: Just to be clear, I didn’t state “some are made for heaven and some for hell.” You kinda made it look that way by use of the quotes.

As far as the statement itself, most “Calvinists” would probably point to Romans 9:18-23, espcially vs21. Not looking for a discussion or argument–just responding.

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Chris L: “… what’s the point in refighting it for the 1,000,000th time?” That’s what I was thinkin’! Nathan STARTED it!! 8^)>

Anyone that hangs around here much at all would know that there are folks on both sides and a few in the middle. I’ve never seen anyone change teams because of comments made here, and that’s OK I guess. I will have to admit the tone for this thread is way more civil than others I’ve seen on this same topic…and very few comments about Ken, Ingrid, et al.

All in all, a pleasent exchange.

Your phrase “some level of free-will” fits in the Calvinist camp as I understand it but I don’t think we would say it that way.

I’m wondering how you would unpack “some level of free-will”.

I agree, so I think we need be very careful in attributing things like “some are made for heaven and some for hell” to God.

If God has a plan that is about Christ Jesus and fit me in that plan I am thankful, yet, I also believe God fit all men into His plan though not all will believe and receive…

iggy

One time I sat around a table of young Christians discussing whether or not it was a sin for a young lady to wear revealing and seductive clothing. Everyone put in their two cents. I said nothing, just listened. Everyone had a different point of view and reasoning to back it up. The thing that amazed me the most was the fact that in an attempt to identify a sin, NO ONE cited scripture. It was simply a discussion of fallen humans discussing their ideas on sin. NO scripture at all was mentioned, for the whole time (at least 30 min)

That’s what I find so surprising about this site. Everyone has their own POV, but no one backs it up with scripture.
That reveals a lot you know?

No scripture there.

In fact I had to go back through six of your comments to get to any scripture at all. And then that was a single sentence made up of 12 words.