I guess they failed to mention Finney and Moody and hundreds of others. While it is accurate that many revivalists were Calvinists, the brand and tone of Calvinists in that day was much different in those days. They held to that doctrine but they wept over souls and preached with fire and passion.

The core of the confusion comes when they take God’s plan for Israel as outlined in Romans and attribute it to the entire human race. The Scriptures that clearly outline free will are legion and only through a tortured redefining of simple words can Calvinists make a square peg fit into a round hole.

I must add here that for every one self righteous Calvinist I have met personally I have met ten humble followers of Christ. That ratio seems different on the internet. I can understand obeying God to preach the gospel even when it doesn’t alter anyone’s peredetermined eternity, but what I will never understand is why these ODMs are so consumed with false teachers that preach false gospels.

And why are they concerned with sinners who think they are saved but are not? Let God deal with all that stuff after all, let people have some false joy as they travel their hell bound journey because that is God’s will for their lives. If MacLaren is an unsaved false teacher he cannot know he is and repent, he is totally depraved, remember?

Whether you believe in Calvinism or not doesn’t matter. But whether you believe that Christ died for every sinner matters a great deal. BTW – I happen to know how God chose the elect. Geographically and racially. Many whites, few American Indians. Many whites, few from India. Many whites, few blacks. Many Americans, few Mongolians. Many English, few Iranians. See, it’s like playing the board game Risk!

It is no wonder that Calvin was a white man whose temper was such that you wouldn’t want your children to emulate him. If his life exhibited the doctrines of grace I’m a Mormon!

Off topic: Good to see you back at the keyboard, Rick. We now return to regularly scheduled programming.

Ian: You question falls in the same line of logic as “If God is all powerful, can He make a rock so big even He can’t lift it.”

If the Gospel is never preached, then there really never is a true church. If no true Church, God’s a liar. If God’s a liar, there’s no heaven to be predestined to. Then…who cares.

What they still fail to address in this film is why evangelize people if are dead, and unable to respond to the message. -Nathan

Because we are told to.

Neil

I would willingly abandoning my belief in the inability of unbelievers if someone could adequately explain Ephesian 2 and Romans 8 in like of the Arminian and or semi-Pelagian position.

Neil

Iggy,

This sounds reminiscent of Karl Barth. Didn’t he say that Christ was THE elected one, and a” in him were therefore elect? – or something like that?

I really like Barth, but I have to admit if I want to understand Barth I have to read things “about” him, not “him himself.”

Neil

This video is disappointing on a multitude of levels.
1. Numerous sweeping assumptions.
2. Research data quoted to support their cause but not cited.
3. Lot’s of time spent on what’s wrong with evangelism but nothing offered as the solution. Please assume for a minute I agree with the House M.D. look alike, it’s as if he’s a Dr. saying you have a disease but I’m just going to spend a lot of time telling you how terrible that disease is. I want to know how they think it should be done. Can a church do an alter call? Can a church lead a group of people in prayer? I want to know what they think we should do. Until I see that, this is just a low scholarship, hit piece with bad graphics and a poor soundtrack.

And if the answer to any of my questions is no, I want to know what these people think churches should do. How does one respond when one says, “How do I have eternal life?” How should we then do evangelism?

Iggy,
I am serious as a heart attack here. I want to know how these people think it should be done. I’m sick of watching them shoot at other Christians (some even go far enough to say they know who the real church is and is not based on this type of stuff). I want to know how they do evangelism.

done

Joe (and others)

I consider myself a Christian first and foremost. I lean more toward the reformed view. That being said, I believe we must evangelize, because Jesus told us to. It is the only reason that we remain on this earth after we have been born-again is to proclaim the good news. That is not to say that we do not do the good works that God has prepared in advance for us to do.

How do we evangelize? Are you looking for a method like the Romans Road or something else?

When I evangelize, the first work is prayer. I pray for the lost that I will encounter each day. I pray that the Holy Spirit will fill me in such a way that I can discern their needs, and the direction I should take when I speak with them. After only a few minutes and listening to their answers of a couple of diagnostic questions, I share with them their need by sharing the law, unless they are humble already of heart and have expressed need for a Savior. Only when they have humbled themselves and it is apparent, and only then, do I share the Good News of salvation with them.

The elect will respond to the preaching of the Gospel, because God has predestined them to hear, to understand, and to respond.

Ian/Pastorboy,
Ian’s question is different from mine. His involves an assumed hypothetical. What I’m asking is how do you do evangelism? I’m not looking for anything other than an answer. If you run into a person today and they seem to be in the “right, humble state” that you share the good news of salvation with them, what does that look like? Furthermore, this Sunday at church John, if you preach an evangelistic message what does the close of the service look like?

The hardening in Romans 9 has to do with who God gives grace to

I agree – what of Romans 8 and the unbeliever’s inability?

Look I know Calvinist, and free willers alike who all evangelize. I know people in the middle who evangelize. This topic has been debated for a long time and not settled. IMO, to try and reduce to a simple “either/or” is pointless. I want to know how the people who are criticizing others are doing evangelism. I want to know how they answer the question, “What must I do to have eternal life?”

What must you do to have eternal life?

Repent, by confessing (agreeing with God) that you have sinned. Turn from that sin (forsake it, leave it behind) and turn to Christ, placing your faith in Him alone for your salvation.

Every step of this equation is brought about by the movement of God in your life.

John,
Thank you for answering my question. I know of no churches that discount the reformed view that would disagree with anything you just said.

Nathan,

I am so glad that God predestined you to write this post. 8^)>

However, you seem to be engaged in an exercise that seeks to only punch holes in Calvanistic logic rather than comparing Calvinism to God’s word and truly digging out what the scriptures teach on this subject.

About the claim that Whitfield lead many to Jesus you said:

really!? How was he able to, but the guy in the graveyard was unsuccessful? Hmmm.

Then you ask

What they still fail to address in this film is why evangelize people if are dead, and unable to respond to the message

I don’t believe for a second that you are stupid. So I have to conclude this is probably just a snarky attack.

In answer to you question the reason WHY regarding evangelism is because Jesus commanded the church to ‘go and make disciples’. It’s hard to make disciples without evangelism. Christ commanded it plain and simple.

Therefore, THE important question isn’t WHY? The important issue is HOW?

The scriptural means of evangelism is the faithful preaching of God’s Word; both law and gospel.

Romans 10:14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? … 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

In other words, God gives life to spiritually dead sinners through the hearing of the word of Christ.

I great picture of what evangelism is like is found in Ezekiel 37.

Ezekiel 37:1   The hand of the LORD was upon me, and he brought me out in the Spirit of the LORD and set me down in the middle of the valley; it was full of bones. 2 And he led me around among them, and behold, there were very many on the surface of the valley, and behold, they were very dry. 3 And he said to me, “Son of man, can these bones live?” And I answered, “O Lord GOD, you know.” 4 Then he said to me, “Prophesy over these bones, and say to them, O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. 5 Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live.

In the other video, the guy in the graveyard represented the foolishness of the seeker-sensitive approach. It won’t work because dead people can’t respond.

So when we evangelize we must recognize that we are preaching to dead sinners and like Ezekiel when we proclaim the Words of the Lord, God raises them from the dead, makes them a new creation and gives them faith and life. So our job is to obey God and proclaim His Word. God’s job is to breathe life into dead sinners just like when He breathed life into the dry bones when Ezekiel prophesied to them.

So the reason why ODMs are so concerned about protecting and defending the True Gospel is because God doesn’t raise people from spiritual death through false gospels and man-made methods that hide and obfuscate the Word of God in the name of being ‘seeker-sensitive’.

The bottom line is that God creates Christians through HIS prescribed MEANS not ours.

Nathan,

How am I supposed to answer your follow up question regarding Ezekiel? Scripture doesn’t say so I don’t know.

Regarding your second question, I have seen and heard many seeker sensitive pastors in action. Here is a thumbnail of their methods.

1. Conduct a survey of unbelievers about what they hate about church or would like church to do for them.

2. Use survey data to make church appealing to unbelievers.

Predictably, their survey results always show that unbelievers don’t like hearing about sin and have no need for expository Bible teaching. Instead, unbelievers say they want positive and practical information to make their lives better. Soooo….

These seeker-sensitive pastors craft sermon series that don’t discuss sin and people’s need for a savior.

So these pastors exchange expository Bible teaching for self-help lessons that teach unbelievers how to have a better sex life, teach them how to balance their checkbooks, teach them how to raise happy children, teach them how to advance in their careers, teach them everything EXCEPT God’s word in context, teach them everything EXCEPT that they are sinful and in desperate need of a savior. Teach them everything EXCEPT Christ Crucified for Sinners.

The message that God wants you to have a great sex life will not save anyone.

The message that God wants to help you cut up your credit cards will not save anyone.

The message that God wants you to discover your purpose will not save anyone.

I have listened to hundreds of these sermons. There is rarely any mention of sin or a need for a savior and the alter call is usually preceded with words like this.

“Are you tired of not having a fulfilling sex life? Do you want to have a deeper and more meaningful sex life, then make a commitment to follow Jesus’ principles for sex.

“Do you want to experience God’s perfect plan for your life? Then pray this prayer”

They call this Evangelism.

But, God has not called us to tell unbelievers what they want to hear but to tell them what they need to hear.

This isn’t heresy by denial but it is heresy by distraction.

Nathan,

One more thing. Albeit the link I’m about to give you is satire, the nugget of truth in the satire shows the greater problem with seeker-sensitive evangelism namely that it is a Christless and Crossless message that these pastors are using.

http://www.extremetheology.com/2007/08/a-decision-card.html

Neil,

It is good to know that! =) I am not sure where I had picked that up from about Barth. As I stated I know more about Anselm than Barth…. and that is not even much of a brag.

Most of my theology come from reading the bible. I will then venture out to others like N. T. Wright, and the “classics” of some of the early Church fathers. I love Maj Ian Thomas as far as understanding “in Christ” as well Bob George (though he has some major cessasionist views. There is also the books I am sent to do reviews from various authors, yet I am not “studying” them.

I recently took one of those “which theologians are you?” tests and found out I am Anselm like in thought… so now I might look at Barth… (The only other thing I “might” know about Barth was that there is a debate whether he was a Calvinist… which I thought mute if he denied God existed only in us and our being… which I guess is mistaken)

Thanks again for setting me straight! = )

iggy

Chris R,

I have read a lot of what you stated… but I guess I have one question.

Is the church the only place to teach the Gospel?

Ok maybe another question..

Is not the church a place also to train families in Godliness and to teach on healthy sexual relations (not just what not to do) seem so out of place to you in the context of equipping the saints, “for the edifying of the body of Christ”. To teach a man how to love his wife in purity as opposed to just saying “love her as Christ loves the church” which is not bad, yet most new and some older believers might not “get” what that means?

Also, to teach one to get out of debt so that they “may owe no one anything but the debt of love”… is that wrong then to teach how to get out of debt and learn how to be a goo steward of our finances to better use our funds for God’s work?

I think also that it is not that we discover our purpose, but that we realize that we are part of God’s purpose or rather “Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised” that we need to teach what that purpose is?

God has an eternal plan… it is called “predestination” and God’s plan is perfect for our lives…

To me I see that you have twisted much around to be bad, yet every quotation I gave is out of the Bible… I am not sure then why if the bible teaches us to do those things you are against those things.

iggy

Iggy,

It is not that teaching those things is bad, per se. But what so many of these churches have done is strip mine the scriptures for these so called Biblical principles. What happens is that they rip verses out of context and then preach these ‘how to’ sermons with these ‘mined’ verses.

For example, Ephesians has a LOT to say about marriage but those verses reside in a CONTEXT that begins with a discussion of the depravity of man and salvation by grace alone through faith alone by Christ alone. Sadly, seeker-sensitive sermons strip away Christ and sin and ONLY focus on moral imperatives and how to achieve them. But Christianity is not about moralism and so-called Biblical principles, it is about Christ.

If we are to correctly handle and teach God’s Word then we need to maintain and teach the ENTIRE council of God’s word and preach those moral imperatives in their proper and complete context.

Ultimately, all of scripture has a unifying context in Christ’s redemptive work through the entire scriptures. That is why you can literally preach Christ Crucified in all of the scriptures.

That is also why Paul said in 1 Corinthians 2:1-2   And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. 2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

These seeker-senstives work from the idea that they are going to preach everything EXCEPT Christ Crucified for Sinners. That is a dangerous error.

Of course the church isn’t the only place to teach the Gospel. But, the church needs to be the place where the gospel is clearly heard and proclaimed EVERY sunday not just on some ‘evangelistic’ Sunday.

I can’t speak for you. But, I sin everyday and I am a wicked and terrible sinner so I need to hear the gospel ALL the time! If the only time I heard the gospel was once or twice a year on some ‘evangelistic’ sunday then I think I’d probably despair and either walk away from Christianity or blow my brains out.

Don’t you have a Bible? What happens if the church if a pastor dies. Why is it the pastor’s responsibility to preach “the gospel” every Sunday? This seems very odd to me.

It seems to me if a pastor is really doing his job, what he preaches on Sunday should almost be inconsequential. He should really be teaching the people in the church to live the gospel and impacting others in their lives.

Chris,
When Paul came to the Corinthians, he came as an evangelist, not yet their pastor. He relied on the simplicity and foolishness of the message, not his wisdom or eloquence. The foolishness of the message was that Christ died for sinners, and this would have been greatly offensive to the Greek conception of how a god “should” act.

If you want to see how Paul think a service should be ordered, it’s better to look at 1 Corinthians 14:26-33:

What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.

Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.

Paul doesn’t mention anything about someone presenting the Gospel. Basically, what Paul seems to envision is a group of people who each come with something to give. They are all interdependent on one another.

Phil,

1 Corinthians 14 is about order when Christians assemble together.

There are clear passages that lay out the responsibilities of pastors / teachers in the church.

2Tim. 4:1   I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.

2Tim. 2:2 and what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

Titus 2:1   But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine.

Titus 2:3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good,

So now I’ve clearly shown from the scriptures that the church is to have teachers and preachers. Their job is to TEACH and PREACH God’s Word and the center and substance of God’s Word is the message of Christ Crucified for Sinners.

John 5:39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

Nathan,

It’s as I’ve already pointed out. It’s not that they teach heresy by denial. Instead it is heresy by distraction. They haven’t kept the Main Thing the Main Thing. You may still hear about Christ Crucified for Sinners and hell and sin in these seeker-sensitive churches, but that is the exception rather than the norm and you have to hunt for it.

I agree that the churches I am describing and advocating for are the exception today rather than the norm. I’ve attended and taught in both kinds. But, I will never go back to a seeker-sensitive church now that I’ve tasted the refreshing water of Christ Crucified for Sinners. My soul has found rest, my sins are forgiven, I have peace with God and now I can truly love and serve my neighbors not out of fear of punishment but because of the love that Christ has shown and given me.

Chris R,

These seeker-senstives work from the idea that they are going to preach everything EXCEPT Christ Crucified for Sinners. That is a dangerous error.

I assure you that having been part of them for about 10 years and having taught and having known the leaders in the ones I attended… this is not true at all and a gross misrepresentation…

They always were based on getting God’s truth out in a way that was practical and understood so that one could live it out.

So, I think you basic assumption is way off and you are judging others motives without knowing them for sure.

iggy

Iggy,

I agree that there are some church’s like what you describe. But mere mental assent and the passing along of information is not nor will it ever be the real definition of teaching sound doctrine. If that were the case then why should we go to church. We could get mere head knowledge in an on-line course in systematic theology.

What I am advocating is sooooo much deeper than that. I’m talking about a message that transforms a sinner into a saint. A message that spurs us to good works and serving our neighbor because we are new creations in Christ and now truly love God and serve him in love and thankfulness. No ’self-help’ message can produce those results. All they can do is produce the dead fruits of self-righteousness.

Call me foolish. Call me naive. Call me stubborn and old school. But, I believe that preaching Christ Crucified for Sinners is the central message of the Christian faith and I will blindly follow the Biblical admonition to know nothing except this Christ and Him Crucified.

Maybe, you can show us how to accomplish all those great things that you are talking about without that message. As for me I will just stubbornly and blindly follow what the scriptures say and believe that God, as He has promised to do, will truly transform people’s lives through that message.

Regarding your second question, I have seen and heard many seeker sensitive pastors in action. Here is a thumbnail of their methods. – pastorboy

I’d say this is as irrelevant to the discussion as any example of a Calvinistic preachers would be… we don’t create theology by anecdote.

Shoud not ALL pastors be seeker sensative?

Neil

I want to tell you that EVERY single sermon EVERY single week my pastors preach Christ Crucified for Sinners. I also hear it in the words of institution for the Lord’s Supper every week. – Pastorboy

This is admirable, but what if you are in, say the Song of Solomon, or a passage unrelated to this specific.

Chris R,

The message of Christ Crucified is the more than a message about ‘getting into heaven’. If that is all that it is for then there is no point in preaching it to anyone except the lost.

You realize this is only half the gospel right?

iggy

Iggy,

‘half gospel’.

I’ll stick with what Paul said.

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

Phil,

As long as you look at it as ‘information’ to learn then you will not get it.

I am not trying to play games or be aloof or be snarky.

I am dead serious when I say that ‘Christ Crucified for Sinners’ is the message that unlocks not only Justification but Sanctification as well. This message brings the Christian life TO LIFE.

If you don’t believe me then I invite you to conduct a little experiment. Read Ephesians, Philippians, and Colosians. Read them in their entirety and when you get to the ‘moral instructions’ portions of each book notice that those instructions are ALWAYS in light of the cross and what Christ has done for us.

When you read the passage that says ‘Rejoice in the Lord Always’. Notice that what immediately precedes it are these words,

Phil. 3:7   But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ — the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. “

When you read the passage that says, “Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body. “In your anger do not sin”: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold. He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need… NOTICE THAT THIS MESSAGE IS DIRECTLY CONNECTED TO these words…

Eph. 2:14   For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

Notice that these epistles were written to Christians. If ‘Christ Crucified for Sinners’ is merely information about salvation then the majority of these letters is nothing more than filler because the main thrust of each of these letters is Christ Crucified. But the Biblical reality is this…

Without Christ Crucified for Sinners there is no life, there are no good works, there is no true love for or service to our neighbor.

But with the message of Christ Crucified for Sinners comes all the riches of being sons of God. We are set free from sin, are made new, we do the good works that God has prepared in advance for us to do and we serve our neighbor in love for the sake of Christ.

Preaching Christ crucified, as Paul did, means we elevate both the justice (sins must be paid for) the holiness (God cannot have sin in his presence) and the love and mercy (He sent his son Jesus to be the propitiation for our sins) of God.

In this Christ life, we become dead to sin, and alive to God by the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Romans 6) because we are joined to Christ in his death and resurection. Be assured, preaching Christ is the fullness of the Gospel.

Chris and PB,

I wanted to add one more verse that many miss and do not even get.

Eph 2: 6. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7. in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

Be blessed,
iggy

Matt,

I never received the email

iggy