I post the following with no commentary.
The internet has made it possible for every person to have channels of significant influence at their fingertips, regardless of credibility or content. This can be used for good or for bad. And in the case of Cedarville University, we have the bad. I was supposed to speak at Cedarville University in Ohio. At the last minute they cancelled, the VP’s job was threatened, all kinds of ugliness. A small group of people have used an impersonal, indirect means of communication to try and tear down something they disagree with. Unfortunately Cedarville gave validity to this group of bloggers by reacting to their demands… and as we all know dissension spreads like fire, or yeast as Jesus said.
A university must believe its students are able to "test the spirits" and work out their salvation "with fear and trembling." We are not talking about junior high kids, but young adults who are capable of discerning truth from fiction, and who need to be trusted with and exposed to diverse perspectives.
If there is anything I’ve learned from both conservatives and liberals, it’s that we can have all the "right" answers and still be mean. And when you’re mean, it’s hard for people to listen to, much less desire, your truth.
We have nothing to fear from people who disagree with us. Folks who see things differently from us are our best teachers.
I would love to have a conversation with these folks that disagree with me. I have often said that one of our great witnesses to the rest of society is how well we can disagree. In fact, I offered to use the honorarium Cedarville promised to fly in the angry bloggers so we can have a public conversation. I take all criticism very seriously. I will prayerfully listen to every critique and concern that is expressed directly to me. My address is on our website (thesimpleway.org). And I respond personally to every one, usually with an invitation to have dinner together (hmmm, I can feel the surge of "angry" letters from folks looking for a free meal, haha!).
Unfortunately it’s difficult to communicate with folks who will not talk to you, who only talk around you, as in this case. I do not have time to hunt down every rogue website. There’s too much constructive work to do for the Kingdom for us to spend our energies constantly reacting to every destructive voice, especially those who do not honor Matthew’s admonition to speak directly with one another in love (Mt.18). And there is too much brokenness in the world to spend time tearing each other apart.
I am excited to say that these bloggers do not represent the majority of Christians — who want to see evangelism and social justice kiss, and who know that what we believe must affect the way in which we live. This is evidenced by the surge of energy from other local communities and congregations who contacted us immediately after the cancellation with hopes of hosting the evening. We have worked carefully and respectfully with Cedarville University and the many folks in the area to organize an event on Monday night autonomous of the university. It will be an evening of sharing worship, and prayer hosted by Apex Community in Dayton…………..
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
86 Comments(+Add)
I am glad you will be hosting this fundie-free zone in Dayton. I am so tired of these people who have nothing to do but to read the Bible, interpret it according to a grammatical/historical hermeneutic (that is so dualistic and platonic) and live according to the standards found in the Bible. Don’t they know we can find Jesus is all traditions? Do they really think that someone has to call the name Jesus to be saved when he leads a life that helps people and honors their humaness? I cant wait to check out your self-made clothes. I only wish I could wear my homemade leather-free sandals to show you. Hemp makes GREAT footwear…
Is there a reason we haven’t put emergent Eddie on moderation? We do have a “ID” yourself policy don’t we?
EE – you will be going on moderation shortly if you don’t drop the schtick. You’re just a cartoon of “emergent” as envisioned by Ingrid & Ken…
Has Murphy McStinker or Itodyaso Done this? Otherwise this is hypocrisy.
Your site, If you can’t handle humor, then I will quit
Um, Yeah, Murphy and Itodyaso has ID’d himself numerous times there, Bud. Too many times to count. So, let’s see some I.D. please.
Lets make this fun. You have to guess!
Sorry, I got way too much work to do to play this game. You got one more comment and then I’m putting you on moderation.
Iggy has identified his parody persona, and links to his own site (making it obvious who he is). We also track IP addresses, which identifies him, as well.
If you would like to identify yourself and link to your actual site, you can keep the dual persona, though your caricature is so silly that it identifies pretty much nobody associated with the ECM…
Phil already got me on another thread!
Puh-lease. Guess? You don’t even try.
pastorboy’s IP address: 216.16.90.211
Emergent Eddie’s: 216.16.90.211
Don’t you have anything better to do?
Ok, Now John have fun playing emergent Eddie. Thank you. I’m back to my note cards.
You mean…emerging eddie….aka….john….aka…pastorboy???
PB- Have you read shane claiborne? Can you honestly say you have theological problems with him? And even if you do, can you imagine him responding to criticism any more graciously, lovingly, and willing to be taught and corected as he has in this letter? Why don’t you take him up on his offer for a meal? I notice you continue to criticize tony jones without responding to his offer of meeting together…
LOL
You thought Ingrid and Ken created this guy!
No – not that K&I created him, but that he was a product of their twisted view of the ECM…
I think doing what Pastor Boy did is worse than a caustic comment given by someone whose name is legitimate. That type of deception makes a mockery of dialogue which many times can do this on its own. Iggy’s was meant as humor (even the name), PBs was a mockery.
For satire or parody to be effective you have to actually know what you’re satiring/parodying.
A friend of mine is attending Cedarville, I emailed him about this incident and he wrote back:
This further illustrates the need for CRN.info. The ODMs through the power of pure hatred and vitriol were able to prevent this event from happening and deprived Cedarville’s students of an opportunity despite the ODMs being a sliver of a minority.
Henry, My has ALWAYS been meant as humor. Look at my site, isn’t it obvious? Nobody could believe this junk I have written (though some have…LOL)
Corey,
Actually I did drive to Minneapolis to show up at an internet advertised service at SP, on a night when TJ was preaching. Unfortunately, they screwed up on the advertised time! I missed the service, and the wheat bread snack they had laid out. I am still amenable to that conversation, if I can get up to Minneapolis again. And yes, Shanes response was about as gracious as possible. And yes, being involved in college ministry means dealing with young people who have a mind of their own, and have to make up their mind for themselves. That is why Christians must have their orthodoxy as well as their orthopraxy tightened up and correct….
Although I am ignorant of the issues that the ODMs have with Brother Clairborne, his letter is genuinely Christian.
I dropped Pastor Wiggins( the DS for Pastorboy’s district) an email about this. Perhaps he can share with Pastorboy,emergenteddie, John Chisham why this isn’t a good thing to do.
Bruce
Why what isn’t a good thing to do?
I just want you all to know….Admitting it is the first step….
I am a closet emergent.
Personally, now that you’ve ID’d yourself, I don’t care. Have fun with it. I think it missrepresents the EM but what I think is irrelevant. This post isn’t about you or your false persona. I see it as an action based on Iggy’s fake guy, and I understand it and say, “more power to you.”
Back to the original post.
I’ve actually found this to be quite true. I’ve often wondered why Christians fear opposing viewpoints so much. If we’re so sure we know the truth, then we shouldn’t try to silence our critics. I think sometimes the only way people develop a backbone is to come against some oppostion.
I think some people take the attitude that we have already fought these ideas, and we don’t need to fight them again. We’ve already won, so everyone should just get in line. I see this in Christian of my parents’ generation. Meanwhile, their kids are coming up against stuff, and because they have just been fed answers rather than make them their own, they are just now begninning to deal with some of these things.
I did not recognize the sarcasm, and evidently you’ve never been to Spencer Burke’s site or the Jesus Seminar. We must be careful to present genuine opinions based upon what we pereonally glean from Scripture. Too many of these fake nem sites will lead to more choas than we now have.
Now, let’s get back to the post at hand. While I agree with Bruce that the ODM’s share much of the blame here, let us not forget the management at Cedarville that has bowed its knee to these modern day religious leaders. Squandering their opportunity to teach what it means to be truly discerning this leadership caved to the squawking of the Sadducee’s. I say Shame on Them.
And they are a blog form of the Pyro posters. I am not a fan of either.
Phil,
You are quite correct. If I have a belief that will not stand scrutiny and question it is not much of a belief.
I spent most of my life with someone else’s doctrine. My parents, my Church. My Bible College, My Denomination, or some confession.
I must make the truth my own. It is not enough for me to say Phil believes in _____________. I most own it for myself.
Personally, I love having heated, passionate, discussions about truth, as long as I am treated with respect.
Bruce
Joe – how do you know that the leadership of Ceaderville did not make an informed decision based upon some additional evidence? Are they not allowed to follow the Spirit’s leading as they see fit, even when it seems they made a decision based upon the evidence of some bloggers?
The things about Clairborne that concern them have gotten lost in the accusatory verbiage – as usual. I would love a site that gives a dispassionate presentation of the unfolding issues on all sides. I personally am not that smart.
I don’t agree with some of Shane’s stuff but this letter was brilliant. I also think, as the parent of a college ‘young person’, when I send my child to a college, and pay the tuition, I have normal expectation of input on who that college brings in to speak, specifically if it is a Christian college.
However, Phil is correct. There is a point when the child becomes an adult, and they MUST make decisions for themselves and form their own opinions. I pray that my daughter chooses to follow Christ with her whole life, but it is certainly her decision to make. God does not have grandchildren. So, she must also be able to contend for her faith and discern for herself. There will come a time, all too soon, when they will have to do this for themselves. When we parents finally let our kids fly on their own, hopefully they will be prepared.
Rick,
I guess I would think that if Cedarville had concerns they would have put those concerns out there for people to understand what they were. Also, I would think that a liberal arts school would have the cajones to allow a speaker they don’t agree with 100% to come in and offer his/her views. If they have truth on their side, what do they have to worry about?
“I guess I would think that if Cedarville had concerns they would have put those concerns out there for people to understand what they were.”
My point exactly. I would love to see the issues and the concerns presented clearly, isn’t that what an educational institution is all about?
Yes Rick, thats what they are all about.
Students need to learn to think critically for themselves! They need to decide, especially as Christians what they believe and why they believe it!!
But they’re not helping them think critically by canceling it and not telling anyone why.
For a website (beliefnet.com) that has such an intricate code of conduct for its commenters to follow, there certainly are some rude and critical comments on that post. I don’t think a lot of people understood what he meant. I’m not sure I understand what he meant. “I take all criticism very seriously . . .” Maybe he shouldn’t. He’ll get a bad migraine very fast.
That is rather funny (both of the peculiar and humorous sort) that the ODMs claim they have no uncertainty but also have to protect their claims the strongest, so much so they can’t even stand any dissenting opinion at all.
In preaching we tend to holler the loudest and pound the pulpit the most at the points that are the weakest
“You thought Ingrid and Ken created this guy!”
Well, it’s not like ol’ Kyrie66, er, Ingrid hasn’t tried it before.
The difference between Emergent Eddie and MM/IT is that EE needs to have a clue about what he is satiring…
That is the beauty of satire… there is at least some understanding of those who are satired.
iggy/MM/IT
After reading the ODMs, Shane, and the various responses on Shane’s blog I have to conclude that those opposing Shane’s presence on campus are obviously lacking in their doctrine.
link
link
link
link
link
link
And on and on.
I can only conclude that they are the product of, as in the words of one blogger:
Its a real shame too. If only they took the Bible seriously instead of ignoring the commands of the apostles and prophets.
So I wonder just what the ODM’s dislike about Shane – since I really know nothing about him. In this sense I’m a clean slate.
So I read this. And what do I find, an anti-Shane rant that is full of the typical self linking and name calling… but I still don’t know why – or what Shane promotes that is wrong.
Neil
Although I did get a real kick out of this:
How anyone can dismiss spiritual discipline is beyond me. And apparently, contemplation is wrong even though the Psalmist promoted it. But what I found down-right funny was the charge of legalism.
What a hoot!
Neil
Neil-
I think because Shane is friends with Wallis and Campolo and is somehow associated with the “Red Letter Christian” movement. That’s it.
Pastorboy, you mentioned that there were some things you didn’t like about Shane. What are they?
WHAT ?!?!?!
Shane Claiborne is friends with sinners ?!?!?!
He must be a winebibber.
Hmmm – I never heard of Red Letter Christian either… sounds Commie-like…
Neil
The Red Letter Christian movement is a movement to reestablish the teachings of Christ in the Church. (i.e. Matt 5-7)The gospels and their teaching have been neglected in many Evangelical Churches. We tend to lean on Paul and forget about Jesus.
I am on record as being a “red Letter Christian.” This does not mean I don’t believe the rest of the Bible. It DOES mean I believe ALL of the Bible, including the teachings of Christ in the gospels.
Shane Clairborne is a wonderful example of a man who puts his faith to work.
Red Latter Christians, Emergent, Emerging , etc all intersect at times but each are separate and distinctive movements.
Bruce
“each are separate and distinctive movements.”
What are the distinctives?
I have some questions about this event…
1. Does anyone really believe that a small group of bloggers has that much influence over a univerity?
2. Does anyone have the university’s side of this? So far, all I’ve seen is Claiborne’s contentions.
The student body thinks so.
Rick,
Distinctive as to purpose, primary movers, objectives. Do a web search on red letter Christian and you’ll find several documents dealing with the whole red letter Christian movement.
Jazz,
Here is the email for the president of Cedarville:
bbrown@cedarville.edu
I emailed him and got a nice but general response back
Bruce
You know, I haven’t followed this latest storm too closely, even though I have been reading the back and forth, and I noticed there are significant posts about this at Slice and Apprising (that I only briefly scanned). I have a simple thought or two.
I am a huge fan of orthodox Christianity. Anyone who has read anything at my blog will know that I am not a fan of the so-called emergent idea. But I seriously have to question what purpose is served by the ongoing rants at Slice and Apprising. Do those people have jobs? You know the funny thing is that I get no love from them at all. Why is there no Christian love in the ‘work’ they do? My God, have they never heard of the grace of God that they claim to know????
What I wonder is this: How is the Body of Christ being built up by what they are doing which, in my estimation, amounts to little more than destroying anyone with whom they disagree?
I did a short series of posts called the ‘un-grace’ Gospel. My contention remains the same. I might disagree with ‘emergent’ theolgy and practice, but I have a sneaking suspicion that underneath all our disagreement there is the grace of Christ which saves us–not because of works, but because of Grace–the very grace they include in their sola statements and so conveniently ignore. My God, is there no room for grace at all in their world?
Their kind of preaching makes me want to abandon the church altogether. I cannot imagine it inspires the lost to seek Christ, salvation or the grace; let alone the church.
I’m really sad right now. Terribly sad. There’s a woman and her husband who recently left our congregation and you know what she’s doing? She’s calling up some of the weaker members and trying to destroy their faith too. I suspect there are weaker Christians in the world who read Slice and Apprising and have their faith not strengthened, but rather destroyed. The version of the ‘gospel’ they preach would not stand up to the scrutiny of congregants who gather weekly to worship and hear a sermon. If I preached like that every week, once a month, I would have no congregation left at the end.
Man, I’m really sad right now. My wife is talking to the young lady whose faith is wavering because of people whose faith is significantly weaker. I’m not taking the Rodney King approach, but I cannot believe this is what the Body of Christ has to contend with. Have we come so far in the church that there is really no room for even discussion?
Friends, I am sad right now. This all started when I read the author of slice call Br. Reed a ‘an enemy of the gospel.’ Those who are enemies of the Gospel are those who preach something other than Christ, something other than Grace. You know, I simply cannot believe there are people in the world who put their own agenda ahead of the Body of Christ.
Pray God have mercy on us all–since we are all sinners, except of course…well, you know…
9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10″Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ 13″But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ 14″I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
God have mercy on us all–especially those who are rehearsing their ‘get into heaven’ speeches now with words that resemble the Pharisee and not th Publican.
Sorry for the long reply, but the reality of the church is a lot better and a lot worse than either Ingrid or Ken know since neither of them, as far as I can tell, stand behind a pulpit week after week and deal with real faith issues. It must be nice to live in a revival church where there are no hurting people, broken lives, and constant struggles! Yes, if only all of us lived in Revival Land!
God have mercy on us all.
jerry
Jerry,
I have a number of questions for you that don’t need to be posted here. I didn’t want to just leave a comment randomly on your blog, so you can either e-mail me or let me know where to comment, that’d be great.
- Christian Penrod
Yep. I feel ya brother.
Ingrid writes:
They need to either admit they have gone the postmodern route and publicize themselves as such, or return to the old paths that once made Cedarville synonymous with biblical integrity.
Pretty well sums it up. Some want to move into the 21st century. Ingrid, Ken, etal wish to keep us in the 19th.
This whole matter reeks, not of contending for truth, but of FEAR.
Such a little God that can’t protect his truth from one man giving a speech.
Henry Mahan, the old Calvinist preacher at 13th St Baptist in Ashland, KY said years ago …..Untested faith is suspect faith.
Truth, the faith once delivered to the saints……….will stand being tested. What will not stand testing are methods and ideology that have died with the times.
Bruce
Friend,
I have a section at my blog that is sort of my ‘biography’ so to speak. The section is simply called ‘goldfinch.’ You can post any comments there.
I just hope people understand where I’m coming from. I spent 13.5 hours thurs and fri in Doctrine of Grace at CCU with Dr Cottrell, but even before that I was having suspicions about grace. No one would take Dr Cottrell for a liberal, and yet I heard not one word of personal criticism from him in the entire two days regarding individuals and their expression of faith. You know the irony? In the class there were Methodists, Emergents, Presbyterians, Apostolic Church, Catholics, Church of Christ a capella, Christian Church, Baptists, Calvinists, Arminians, Pre-millenialists, Post-millenialists, Amillenialists, Community Church, white, black, Middle Easterns, Ohioans, Kentuckyans, one guy from Nebraska (!), preachers, youth ministers, counselors, missionaries, men, women, and more–it was amazing (I’m serious, I made a list as he asked each person to account for their church membership!) All of us learning about God’s grace! All of us together with no hate, no anger, no bickering–all of us enjoying God’s Word, God’s grace, and each other. All there only because of the grace of God.
There’s a church in our neck of the woods that is splitting even as we speak. A 200 year old church–right down the middle! Where is the grace? None of us is perfect are we? None of us will get into God’s heaven because we have all the answers. Our salvation is based on His grace alone. Why don’t I understand that??
jerry
ps–all comments at my blog are moderated.
jazzact13: Does anyone really believe that a small group of bloggers has that much influence over a univerity?
You apparently have not spent any appreciable time in the business world. The average executive is a total wimp and will kowtow to the wishes of a small minority rather than stand up to the big stink that they raise.
Not sure if this is what Cedarville did, but your question shows a bit of ignorance about how the world works.
Let’s be honest, the only people in the New Testament that these bloggers look like is the bad guys. They are the heretics. They are the one’s who don’t look at all like Jesus. I respect you guys for wanting to keep it nice but sometimes you just gotta call a dog’s movement, a dog’s movement.
The Other Bell,
I wouldn’t call them heretics but I would say they preach Jesus out of contention and strife.
I John seems to make clear that one of the characteristics of a Christian is love for the brethren. If I do not love my brother how can I say the love of God dwells within me?
The way the ODM’s get around this is to simply say we are not brethren. We are heathen, infidels, heretics, deniers of the gospel. Makes it neat and easy.
We can love without necessarily agreeing with each other. The ODM’s don’t seem to get this principle. I disagree with virtually everyone
but I still love them as my brethren.
The Church is going through a tremendous transition and change. If you had told me 30 years ago, as a younger preacher, that we would be going through what we are going through now I would have laughed and dismissed it out of hand. But, here we are.
It is a messy struggle but I do believe the future and relevance of the Church is at stake. In the end the ODM’s will be shown to
be the dissemblers that they were. They will be considered a low point in Church history. Hopefully what springs from all of this is a bride who loves her groom, and who loves all who are in her family.
Bruce
Bruce
If there’s one thing I’ve learned this year, it’s that things aren’t always as they seem. We judge people from what we see on the surface, at least I have, only later to find out something about their personal lives or personalities that completely changes my perspective on them. For example, I recently found out that a good friend is bipolar. Another good friend has major family issues. I wouldn’t have ever guessed, but I saw the effects of these things on the surface and judged, maybe disrespected.
I think we need to respect the ODM bloggers. Not because we agree with them or because they are doing great things for Christ. I think we need to respect them because things aren’t always as they seem. We can just see the surface. We don’t know them or know where they’re coming from. Many articles bashing individuals seem to be written from a well of hurt that we don’t understand. I really think these people need to be shown God’s grace and love. We don’t want to show it, but we need to. We can’t see the whole picture. Let’s trust God and treat them with love and kindness.
Merry,
I agree with what you wrote………most of it anyway.
I am not sure they write from a well of hurt. Maybe. Could be. As a long time fundamentalist myself I didn’t write/say/do the things I did out of hurt. I did them out of the necessity to be right. My religion required me to be right. No middle ground. No gray areas. No prisoners taken.
I see the ODM’s as hurtful and destructive. People read what they write. They take the hate back to their Church and spread it. It is like a virus. How do we best fight a spreading virus?
I do know we must always love, even those who hate us in Jesus name.
Bruce
Bruce, I agree with your comment. Maybe they don’t write out of hurt. It seems like they do. No one can know for sure.
Just remember, that things aren’t always what they seem. That was the main point I was making.
We can fight a spreading virus with lots of prayer and “Medical attention.” Anti-biotics counter-act bacteria in our bodies. Lots of love can counter-act lots of hate in the church body.
The more I think about how things worked out the more I see God working for the good in all things for those who love Him.
Think about it. This went from being on a college campus attended by mostly those who were already interested in studying the Bible to a community event where it will be attended by average Xtians, and perhaps average non-Christians who would never find themselves on Cedarville’s campus.
What the ODMs meant for evil, God used for good.
Bloggers have more influence than some major newspapers. The Smoking Gun, The Drudge Report, and many more blogs disseminate information and in so doing alter people’s thinking, company policies, and government legislation. In this case it was a Christian college’s agenda.
It would have been appropriate for Ceaderville to have issued a detail statement as to their reason along with a sincere apology to the speaker. Blogs will continue to gain influence, not lose it. That is why we Christian bloggers must be accountable to God about what information we post. God is not impressed with our blogs and their influence (hits) or our many station radio program. Quantity does not equal quality or especially Christlikeness.
Stength must be tempered by weakness, assertiveness by humility, correction by love, boldness by silence, and truth by grace. I keep looking for the complete book on these things in the library but someone hasn’t returned it for over 33 years. One statement that seems universal is this:
We are all unprofitable servants.
I think you meant, we are all unprophetable servants.
We are all unprofitable savants!
Wow, Tim, that was rather insightful (and a little freaky).
You should write a post “ODM’s Increase Ministries of Those They Oppose”
This morning I was perusing the blog that was linked and I found this comment from the prophet/teacher.
Could anybody get more self-aggrandizing?
–Not sure if this is what Cedarville did, but your question shows a bit of ignorance about how the world works.–
Perhaps, though outcries and protests didn’t keep one or two colleges from allowing that Iranian whacko-leader from speaking at them a few months ago.
I’m saying, this seems a bit more complex then Claiborne or even the bloggers may be saying it is. If it was only about the bloggers, for example, well, there’re ways of spinning their protests (as Claiborne has done) to make it appear like going against them is doing the students a favor.
–Bloggers have more influence than some major newspapers. The Smoking Gun, The Drudge Report, and many more blogs disseminate information and in so doing alter people’s thinking, company policies, and government legislation. In this case it was a Christian college’s agenda.–
Yes, there are very influential blogs and web sites. But are we talking about any of them?
Ken Silva might have done more damage to ODMs by posting in that thread than anything on this site. Check out the reactions to his link whoring:
Jazz – my comment was made in the context of how blogs can be influencial. Christian blogs can carry weight as well even if authored by one person. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, even in the church.
Chris – self aggrandizing? I believe the rule is when you double digit self links in one article you have officially entered the “self-aggrandizing” zone! It’s hard to taste the pancake when the syrup is so thick.
So let me get this straight. Ken Silva writes an article blasting Shane Claiborne without really presenting any substantial evidence why he’s a heretic. In doing so he never makes any effort to read Claiborne’s book, contact via email or phone, or basically do anything other than present hearsay. And now Ken Silva is complaining the Claiborne didn’t try to contact him before defending himself against Silva’s gossip campaign.
Welcome to the Bizzarro World of ODM logic…
Someone needs to write a post “Ken Silva, meet the facts.”
LOL!
iggy
Yeah you’re right Rick; self-aggrandizing is a bit understated.
Ken’s post has 14 links back to his own site.
Is there a stronger adjective?
Narcissistic.
I know I’m joining this conversation late, but I could not help but notice that the very thing our friend Emergent Eddie said of Shane’s critics, that they “…live according to the standards found in the Bible” is EXACTLY what our brother Shane is doing in Philly…EXACTLY what he is doing.
Hey,
I did not know that Shane Clairborne was such an axe murderer… I mean after reading Ken’s article I feel like Shane murdered Mother T or something. LOL!
It seems that Ken when faced with the daunting task of actually getting facts together forgot to get facts together… it is like a post I Todyaso did on “pour bible teaching” and never once quoted the bible… but instead of fiction… Ken parodies himself… again! LOL!
All I got from the “miss”ive was;
1. Ken thinks he is pretty great for (something) and hates Shane.
2. Ingrid hates Shane.
3. Ken needs to re-read what Tozer stated as it was more addressed to Ken than to Shane as it seems Shane is the one that is causing the polarization that Tozer spoke of… Ken is the one polarized…
Or as Tozer surmised…
“Toward [such a one] it is impossible to be neutral. His acquaintances are divided pretty neatly into two classes, those who love him out of all proportion and those who hate him with perfect hatred.”
Yes, Ken is the one who has “perfect hate” against the one that is the True “Religious Specialist”.
iggy
“pour bible teachingâ€
should be
“Pure Bible Teaching”
igs
As one who is very suspicious of the “Red Letter” group I felt the Holy Spirit nudge me in response to Nate’s observation. I too was moved to see the humble work that some of the Sojouner’s are doing to help the homeless and others. Although those works do not translate into all Biblical truth, I felt compelled to comment here that it did impact me as I read about it.
I often feel that the homeless, and the sick, and the hungry, and the AIDS orphans, and a number of groups world wide have no knowledge of our doctrinal battles and if fact need more than words. I pray that I will never be just a mouthpiece but proportionately a servant to the needing as well. I think James makes mention of something along those lines. The gospel message arriving with the caring ministry of Jesus.
Novel.
I love how Shane’s response is described as “angry”…
I don’t agree with everything Shane says, but based on my past interactions with him, he’s anything but angry.
Methinks the ODM’s protest too much. He didn’t mention them by name, but the shoe obviously fit and for all their “love” of the truth they really don’t like it when the mirror of truth his held up to their own visage.
what was that wise adage about the dog that yips was struck by the thrown stone…or something like that?
As I said on my blog I have 100.00 bill for ANYONE that can show anger in Shane Clariborne’s post. It is pure fabrication to suggest he is writing out of anger.
Bruce
Nathaneal,
I know that one, but with the ODM’s it is more the Dog and vomit thing.
iggy
Be careful, I. Todyaso might be listening…
iggy
More rhetoric… not sure if I should laugh, cry, or both. Again, lots of attack and accusation but no evidence.
Neil
Yep, empty false accusations but no facts…
Funny about the truth war… it really is about Truth, just bearing false witness.
iggy
–As I said on my blog I have 100.00 bill for ANYONE that can show anger in Shane Clariborne’s post. It is pure fabrication to suggest he is writing out of anger.–
Funny, in one sentence you say that you want proof, while in the next you deny that proof can be given. Did you learn to argue like that from evolutionists
Ok, if we are to take you seriously, what kinds of things would you consider to be proofs?
Jazz,
It is a rhetorical statement because there is NO anger anywhere in the article. Unless you know Clairborne’s heart, there is not one word that can be remotely considered angry.
So Ingrid is deliberately lying when she says Clairborne is angry. I have read enough coverage on the issue to know she is aware that her “angry” comment is not truthful.
Just between us girls, I think she is projecting HER feelings on to Clairborne. She can’t imagine a disagreement of that proportion without there being anger involved.
So the 100.00 offer stands……….
Bruce