Wow, pretty hard-hitting. Very practical. In fact, too practical. I prefer to remain comfortable in my lofty realm of theoretical abstraction divorced from reality.

God proved his love for us that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Proof.

Chris – A muslim can do what those Scriptures command. We must always do those things “in Jesus name” and in the context of the gospel message and Christ’s redemption or we run the real risk of communicating God’s love without the necessary context of Jn.3:16.

Humanitarian acts are the fruits of a Christian but they are not the path to salvation in a vacuum. Ministering to human needs must be connected in some way with ministering to the soul.

Amen and Amen and Amen to the post.

Rick – it doesn’t say anythign about ‘in Jesus name’ in those scriptures though. I think it is assumed that it is the followers of Jesus who we are all talking about.

The Scriptures Chris provided are not sufficient to prove God’s love. They are speaking to believers and also as a metophor for true faith. How is it that you are dumbfounded because someone quoted a Scripture and that should be “enough”. Isn’t that what you claim that is what “orthodox” brethren do, quote Scripture?

What did God do when he so loved the world? Did he feed it? Did He clothe it? Did he heal it? Or did He give His only begotten Son. That is the issue, not should we do those acts of compassion, but in what context and in whose name? You cannot act like you are the only ones who do acts of humantitarian acts, you are not. The issue is should we make an attempt to reveal the Risen Christ and His Father from whom all gifts flow or not?

I again cannot see the argument and its particulars, we should all be in agreement on this. I guess.

Again, Joe, you demean any respectful discourse with your sarcasm and fleshly wit. I guess my views and perpectives are worthy of the same dismantling humor and sarcasm as displayed by the Pyro posters, only the sword is in the other hand and thus approved.

Rick, we are justified before God apart from works. We are justified before men by our works (Romans vs James)

The only Christianity that the world sees is in what we do.

It is meaningless to “talk” about it. We need to “do” it.

Since we can not know the motive (in whose name am I doing this work) of a person I am not sure we we bother with such discussions. People do things for a lot of different reasons. God is glorified when good works are done. Even when they are done by the heathen or baptists

Bruce

Again, Joe, you demean any respectful discourse with your sarcasm and fleshly wit. I guess my views and perpectives are worthy of the same dismantling humor and sarcasm as displayed by the Pyro posters, only the sword is in the other hand and thus approved.

So Rick, you can have humor, but no one else can? Forgive me, I didn’t know.

And by the way, Joe, the clothes you wear look like they’ve already been rent!

That, my friend, is humor.

I’m curious Mr. Freuh, is this the kind of meaningful dialogue you so desire? Taken from here

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now, Mr. Freuh, that was funny. I snorted my tea almost out of my nose.

Sorry for my scriptural quotation w/o commentary – I had about 45 seconds to post before going off for awhile.

My point in posting them is that actions, even in the absence of words, are required, and are not more of, or less of, a blessing with a shared message.

It comes down to a level of trust in the Holy Spirit…

Yes, Chris, all followers of Christ should do those things and more (mercy, grace, forgiveness, etc.) but in the context of being a follwer of Christ. These works do not have to precede an evangelistic tent meeting, but people should know we are followers of Christ when we minister to them.

There isn’t always a chance for dialogue or any doctrinal discertation, but His name should at least be mentioned or it should be understood that these come from Him.

A minister from The ministry of Word of Life told this story at a missions get together (he was a pilot). He said they flew into a South American jungle and desired to reach a certain tribe. They had one guide who spoke the language and one witnessing tape (audio). The tribe ran into the jungle upon hearing the first word of the tape. After some assurance they returned and went to listen in a large hut.

Somewhere as they were listening a lady began to cough profusely and the natives moved away from her. She was in the dying stages of terberculosis. This pilot went over and put his arm around her to comfort, he called the interpreter, and told her that the Creator wanted to have her go to his hut and she could only go with this Creator’s Son. He said His name is Jesus, and if you will believe and call upon His name He will take you to His hut in heaven.

Long story short she called upon this Jesus and died within the hour. I have a level of trust that the Holy Spirit can save someone with that basic a gospel in those circumstances. My point is, though, should he just have comforted her silently until she died? That is the essence of the Great Commission.

“Whosever believes”

So Neil, once must believe to eat and have clothes? Food is not redemption.

Issue settled.

Then why are some so obtuse? It seems sometimes that some are content with humanitarian deeds and in them the Spirit can communicate the salvation message within the heart of the receivers even when they know nothing of the origin of this help. I mean that is how it comes across.

Then why are some so obtuse? It seems sometimes that some are content with humanitarian deeds and in them the Spirit can communicate the salvation message within the heart of the receivers even when they know nothing of the origin of this help. I mean that is how it comes across.

What I’m saying is that maybe sometimes we are supposed be silent, and just trust the Holy Spirit. I don’t think we can boil it down to a formula. When we do that, we may actually be hindering what God wants to do.

Rick,
I’ve always repected your contributions to these conversations. But you lost me on this one.
Is your concern with Brant’s quote of pastor Ward’s words? Because they are some of the most powerful words I’ve heard in a while.
Or is your concern with some obscure vein of Christianity that says humanitary works save eternal souls? I’ve never heard anything remotely like that from the contributors to this site. And yet you seem to be addressing this site.

It seems IF there is a Holy Spirit (I wonder sometimes) and IF we are indwelt by that same Spirit ( I wonder sometimes)

Then we move/work as guided by the Holy Spirit.

If the above is true…………..then we have no place to judge the “works” of others. Each gifted differently but all led by the same Spirit. Remember, One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, 3000 denominations?

It seems that some people fear that some of us liberal/emerging/emergent/mclarenites are going to be too nice to people if we dare minister to their temporal needs. Better to keep those wicked sinners in their misery so they can better feel the pangs of Hell and be more responsive to our gospel preaching, yes?

I remember all the Mother Teresa hoopla. She is a good example of a person who, while Christians and theologians debate, actually went and did something about pain, suffering, and poverty. But, of course she is in hell, right?

Shane Clairborne lives out the gospel. His good works shine brightly. Yet, he is castigated and probably headed for Hell.

We live in a suffering world. Matt 25 makes it clear that we will be judged for the ACTUAL works we did/did not do in relation to the poor, sick, hungry and naked.

To paraphrase Rick, I simply don’t understand how professed followers of Jesus don’t get this. Read the gospels. Jesus didn’t HIDE this message from us, the CHURCH did.

Bruce

Nate – I understood the words to elevate human works of compassion to a level inconsistent with Scripture. When I brought it up, no one corrected me by saying that wasn’t what the preacher meant.

If indeed he was just emphasizing our Christian works as important as conduits then I agree. But as you read the comment conversation it did not seem to be resolved early with an explanation. I was also surprised that our sharing the gospel was not included in plan A.

In all fairness, Rick, the excerpt is 6 sentences from a message. I’m an avid reader of Brant’s blog. And I’m sure if he sat under a preacher who said works and works alone were enough to redeem souls, Brant would not have quoted those 6 sentences.

Jesus saves.

Rick,

None of us can KNOW the spiritual reality of any one person. That is God’s Provence. You don’t know about Mother Teresa or Gandhi (you used the Ingrid spelling version of Gandhi BTW) any more than you know about me or anyone else.

Everyone of us have a full time job taking care of our own spiritual reality.

“It is everything to do with the temporal and social ills of mankind. ”

Thank you, Ian, you are at least open and clear.

In the immediate wake of the 1990’s war in which “Christian” Serbs slaughtered “Muslim” Bosniaks, a truly Christian Croat led a ministry to the Bosniaks in Mostar that consisted of meeting immediate material and emotional needs. They had Bibles to hand out, but held them back so as not to have the appearance of exploiting the plight of the Muslims for evangelistic reasons. After a time, the Bosniak Muslims became curious why the Christian Croats helped them when the Serbian Christians slaughtered them… when the Muslim Mayor of Mostar was told they were doing it at the compelling of Christ, he invited them to hand out their Bibles along with food, clothing, counseling, etc… so they did.

Tim,

“a muslim/atheist/whatever just responds to the law God has placed in them to help the poor, the Christians are busy arguing over it. Draw your own conclusions.”

I think that you just proved Rick’s point. An atheist can do good works, in fact an atheist friend of mine is a great guy. He’s kind, generous, and funny. A great guy to be around, always helping people. He’ll end up in hell if he doesn’t turn from his sin and cling to Christ. That’s the point.
I can do good works, this doesn’t mean that God is impressed. (filthy rags in fact)
I can do good works, this doesn’t give anyone motive to turn from their sin and place their faith in Christ.

My atheist friend can do good works, that doesn’t mean that God is impressed. (again, filthy rags)

In fact, my atheist friend doing good works makes me look bad. Especially when his good works equal mine. How can I say that he needs to become a Christian when I’m “no better than he is”

Thus people have the exact same motivation to believe as an atheist as they do a Christian if all I do is good works. What then is the advantage to being a Christian?

“There is NO NAME under heaven by which man can be saved”

Inq,

You don’t do good works to get saved – you do good works because you ARE saved. That’s the difference between Christianity and all other religions.

We were saved for a purpose greater than simply a viral marketing of fire insurance.

For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

“No we don’t win people with good works but we sure don’t win them without them.”

Bruce – I agree fully with your sentiment, however, I was won to Christ by hearing Billy Graham on television and without one good work done to me by a born again Christian. So sometimes people can come to Christ strictly by the preaching of the Word, but as Chris pointed out works are inherant in a believer.

I was won to Christ by hearing Billy Graham on television and without one good work done to me by a born again Christian.

I would wager that it wasn’t just a Billy Graham crusade. Wasn’t there any Christians you encountered before that crusade who prayed for you, helped you out, or had a conversation with you? Or was it just the preaching of the word?

Chris – I had never met a born again Christian before I heard Billy Graham, not one. I never heard the phrase “saved” or “born again”. I had never been in an evangelical church so when I heard Graham is was all new to me. I was living with my atheist Aunt and Uncle and she treated me real well. I heard the gosepl, went out at night in March of 1975, climbed up the face of Garret mountain in the cold (right outside New York City), and that night I was saved.

I thought I was one of only a handful of real Christians in the world. I wondered aloud to God about the possibility of getting married since I didn’t know if there would be any girls my age who knew Jesus. So it was the Word alone that drew me to Christ.

Chris,

“Wasn’t there any Christians you encountered before that crusade who prayed for you, helped you out, or had a conversation with you? Or was it just the preaching of the word?”

Don’t you know that good works are the power of salvation?

Oh wait, I got it mixed up again. It’s not good works, it’s the gospel that is the power of salvation.