Frankly, Nathan sounds like a shill for Planned Parenthood when he repeats the outrageous lie that “hundreds of abortion clinics have been bombedâ€.
According to these statistics since 1989 show 179 attacks against abortion clinics. This wikipedia article cites a similar study which states:
property crimes committed against abortion providers have included 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons, 619 bomb threats, 1630 incidents of trespassing, 1264 incidents of vandalism, and 100 attacks with butyric acid (”stink bombs”).
I tried to find more neutral sources for these statistics and found this article from MSNBC which states:
There were 1,700 acts of violence against abortion providers between 1977 and 1994, with four people killed in 1994 and one in 1993, according to statistics from the National Abortion Federation. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms has logged 167 attacks against abortion clinics over the past 15 years.
Now I have no doubt that these statistics are as inflated as possible since they come from an obviously biased source (the National Abortion Federation), but even taking that into account this has been a significant source of violence on the part of Christians over the years.
Can it be compared to 9/11? No, of course not. Did Nathan tell the truth? Yes, he did.
It gets scarier though, as apparently Ingrid has creatively re-imagined Northern Germanic armies as warriors of God fighting and killing for the gospel:
They could read about the Battle of Tours, (October 10, 732) where God sent the northern Germanic tribes to stand and block the way of the Islamic warriors—a “Wall of Ice†the Saracens called them, as the Northern tribes stood with their shields and defeated them—so that the Gospel and Christianity would take root in the West instead of Islam.
Wow.
34 Comments(+Add)
Were the Northern Germanic armies Roman Catholic or Protestant?
Somehow, I’m reminded of this… (most likely reflecting my age in the process…)
What’s scary too is that many of those germanic tribes ascribed to the Arian heresy…hmmmm….Gospel warriors for sure!!!!
Go heretics!!!!
And these people complain about “revisionist” secularists.
Steve Taylor is a creative genius!
He’s working with Donald Miller on a “Blue Like Jazz” movie.
I love the song Tale o’ the Twister. Other than that I don’t know much about ‘em.
ahhh, nc, you beat me to the puch…
iggy
sorry…
stole your thunder…
HA!!!
And “we’re” the ones “picking and choosing” and not valuing the truth, right?
When you confront them with the bible and they rebuke you for not bowing to the traditions of men they follow… I guess truth is relative to your systematic theology.
iggy
Oh, no, Ig.
Those aren’t traditions. That’s what the papists do.
That’s the gospel, received once for all.
And thank GOD above that the real gospel finally became apparent to a small group of people 400 years ago.
Thank God I know I’m part of the remnant by virtue of my acceptance of those formulations.
But don’t call me gnostic–soft or otherwise.
We’re saved, Iggy, by the rightness of our opinions and the codified use of our doctrinal language!
And these people moan about “political correctness”…it’s not the 80’s folks…get over it.
Hmm, I still don’t see how Nathan is being truthful in this situation. Did he not say:
“hundreds of abortion clinics are bombed in the name of Jesus Christ.”
The data in this post (provided by wonderfully scholarly Wikipedia) indicates that there have been 41 actual bombings. Some observations are in order here:
1. Nathan claims that there have been hundreds of bombings. The source you cite says there have been 41. Conservative math reveals that his statement is incorrect by nearly 160 bombings. There may have been threats, etc. However, that is not what Nathan said.
2. Of the 41 bombings, how many have been done “in the name of Jesus Christ?”
Hundreds is a gross exaggeration on Nathan’s part. If Ingrid were to show carelessness in an article, you guys would form a lynch mob.
I love how people like you say we should all love each other and then when someone, who in their opinion, isn’t loving, then it is okay to hate them. Astounding!
Dave,
How is this post hateful? You, like most ODMs, have confused disagreement with hatred. Which is why ODMs will rarely ever publicly disagree with each other.
I suppose if you want to get nitpicky about it you’re right. Congratulations. There were “only” 41 bombings, but there was 171 acts of arsons, which puts the total acts of attempting to destroy a clinic at over 200.
Do you really believe that burning a building down, and blowing a building up are different enough to separate the two and claim that Nathan was lying?
And while we’re at it, since we’re being so technical about things. There’s still no proof that Nathan lied since in order for something to be a lie there has to be knowledge that what is stated is being true. Where’s the proof that Nathan knew what he stated wasn’t true?
Personally, if I were you, I wouldn’t be so proud that Xtians were burning down buildings instead of blowing them up, but you know, I guess if that means you can score rhetorical points, and that’s what lets you sleep at night, go for it.
I can just imagine your conversation with a pro-choice advocate:
Dave: Let me tell you about Jesus.
Pro-choicer: Christians have blown up literally hundreds of abortion clinics in the name of Jesus!
Dave: Christians clearly didn’t blow up even 50 of them.
Pro-choicer: Ah, I see, so you think burning down clinics is less of a crime than blowing them up?
Dave: I WAS RIGHT BOOYA SUCKER!!!!
A little thing called “hyperbole”?
But how typical that one technical aspect would be the thing to zero in on to neutralize the criticism of the larger point—which is clearly being demonstrated in the comment thread.
Lynch mob? I think not.
That’s hilarious–considering the “ministry” of lynching these folks are apparently “called” to by their god of fear and anger.
This reminds me of a Simpsons’ quote:
Tim,
I just about wet my pants from laughing…
Thanks…
Ha!
Thx NC,
Honestly, I would rather see a defense of the claim that Northern Germanic tribes were warriors of God. Not to mention the idea that Ingrid put out there that if Islam had taken over the culture at large then Xtianity would cease to exist.
I’m just trying to point out that Nathan was mistaken (at best), being exaggerative (a little worse), or flat out lying (not good).
It just bothered me that you would make a whole post showing that Ingrid is somehow “slandering” Nathan, when it is obvious that he was flat-out mistaken in his numbers.
Why is her language viewed as “slander” when yours is simply disagreeing? I disagree with Ingrid on many things I’m sure (ex. Catechisms in the church, interpretation of Song of Solomon, etc). However, we agree on so many of what one my teachers would call “top-shelf issues” that it would be petty for me to take issue with her over my smaller disagreements.
When Ken or Ingrid are mistaken or put together some faulty research (yes, I even admit this happens), CRN.info has traditionally called them liars – that’s right, straight for the jugular. I don’t have time to search the archives right now, because it really isn’t worth that much time to me. However, I remember taking part in those very conversations.
To quote Steve Taylor, you Emergents are
“so open minded that your brains leak out”
DM-
Have you ever seen Ingrid or CRN admit they made a mistake? Or apologize?
Writers here, when they do make mistakes, admit it.
Jesus said it would be for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven.
That has nothing to do with this discussion, but is an example of gross exaggeration and slandering rich men.
Sorry, PB, but there aren’t any “emergents” I know of here (though there are a number of folks from the ‘emerging’ movement, which is not a denomination). Also, I think the term you’re looking for is “Christians” rather than “emergents”, since they do claim to follow Christ.
BtW, it looks like someone you classified as an “emergent” cleaned your clock in an interview recently…
Pastorboy…
The song you quoted is “be a clone” which seems that you fit it hook line and sinker…
Sorry… but that shoe fits you not me…
iggy
OH BOY
Iggy,
Actually the lyric that PB quoted is from the song “Whatcha Gonna Do When Your Number’s Up?”, but it’s off the album, “I Want to Be a Clone”.
I don’t know anybody who identifies as an “emergent”…not even the people who enjoy participation in a network of relationships across a variety of denominational/theological perspectives called “Emergent Village”.
Yes that evil place that actually encourages people to build relationships and not poke each other in the eye in the name of “being right” which is really about “being in control”.
So terrible. That boogeyman of honest relationships.
Can we just put that stupid “moniker” to bed if it’s going to be used to pigeonhole people?
I’m so over it.
And to the actual comment,
How does wanting clarity and honesty about history mean people are being “too open minded”? Gimme a break.
How does being upset mischaracterizing someone as being casual about abortion or pro-abortion mean there’s too much openmindedness going on? Again. Gimme a break.
I could easily turn around and say, “you anti-emergents are so idolatrous of a revisionist history that you lead people astray.”
Or I could say when I disagree with Ingrid and those like her:
“Apparently you celebrate the deaths of thousands in war so long as it is waged in the name of God.”
But that’s ridiculous…I love how some of you defend exactly just that from these people.
Matt,
Ken as far as I have seen never apologizes nor admits mistakes.
Ingrid has admitted mistakes at least once I recall though I am not sure what it was over…
But 99% of the time Ken or Ingrid and a whole string of others never make mistakes or apologize…
The closest thing I come across is that they might state that you are still wrong then rephrase what you stated slightly so but it still is the same thing. They also can never ever ever be in agreement with someone they deemed “heretic”.
iggy
Let’s start with the fact that Ingrid accused him of lying when there’s no evidence that Nathan was deliberately distorting the truth. In fact, the only way you can even accuse him of being wrong is by pretending that arson is so categorically different from bombing that it wouldn’t fall into the realm of terrorism.
On top of that she belittles Mosaic as a shallow church that is interested above all in “cheese sculpting”, and equivocates Nathan with shills for Planned Parenthood.
Can’t you see the difference yet?
Well, when people lie, we do tend to call them liars. And they have lied, a lot.
Tim,
The one thing that separates us is that we are seeking reconciliation and justice not some strange self validation.
I also hope we never give the appearance that we seek restoration but then never give it. I see this over and over with Ken especially.
I am always open to them as far as reconciliation and forgiving them.
iggy
They’ve been absolutely savaging Driscoll over his interpretation of SoS, and you agree with Driscoll, yet somehow that’s not worth quibbling over?
That’s team gamesmanship at its lowest Dave, and its disgusting.
Dave,
Slander:
Disagreement
Hope you can see the difference. I disagree with my mom and my best friends on things, but I do not go out and slander them because of our disagreement. It seems this is lost on ODM’s…
iggy
in my experience with “this type of person,” they don’t apologize because their “writing” is “consistently and intentionally intellectually dishonest,” as they rarely say in Lubbock…
the only snag is discerning (ha ha) which of these “writers” are part of the intellectual dishonesty machine, and which are mere victims.
What I find most offensive is Ingrid’s assumption that God sent the Germanic tribes against the Turks… I guess killing in the name of God is acceptable if you’re on the right side.
Neil
Phil,
So by the ODM standard, was I?
1. Lying
2. Angry and slandering
3. Mistaken
4. Dishonest
5. A satanic influenced heretic that has lost my salvation (though you believe in eternal security, but go figure)
6. Unworthy of redemption because I was wrong though I had the right album.
iggy
7. All of the above (if we don’t like you)
8. Nothing to see here. Move along (if we do like you)
That’s easy, Iggy. You are a heretic simply for the fact that you were listening to Steve Taylor. Steve Taylor is working with Donald Miller nowadays, I hear. So if there was any doubt that he was on the naughty list before, there isn’t now.