For someone who complains about churches being man-centered, this rant certainly seems like it’s putting the author’s wants and needs first and foremost in the selection of a church.

Maybe this is why they get so ticked off when Rick Warren says it’s not about them…

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This entry was posted on Thursday, March 6th, 2008 at 1:23 pm and is filed under Humor, Hypocrisy, Ingrid, What Can You Say?, Worship. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
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51 Comments(+Add)

1   Kevin I    
March 6th, 2008 at 1:31 pm

Wanted: a place to tickle my ears and never, ever challenge me to think that people unlike me (like those who don’t put on a fasion show for church apparantly by dressing up and showing off) are welcome in church.

I thought the thing about announcements at the end was an interesting preference, we do announcements first thing so that we are able to dismiss people with the sermon’s final point as the last thing they hear so they can go apply it. We do it before worship, what’s so wrong with that?

2   RayJr    
March 6th, 2008 at 1:44 pm

I also noticed a lack of scriptural support for the church of her dreams.

3   Tim Reed, Owosso MI    http://churchvoices.com
March 6th, 2008 at 1:52 pm

For someone who just trumpeted her historical knowledge a few posts ago, she seems to have very little historical knowledge since she claims the hymns she approves of go back 2000 years.

I gotta wonder that if its arrogant to create new worship music now, wasn’t it arrogant to do the same thing a few hundred years ago?

4   Henry (Rick) Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 6th, 2008 at 2:08 pm

I want God wants a church where women keep silent and men are the elders.

She must have missed that one for some reason.

We also want a church where if people do come in unkempt, or rub each other’s backs, or in inappropraite attire, that we will visually correct them as Casting Crowns points out.

“A traveler is far away from home
He sheds his coat and quietly sinks into the back row
The weight of their judgemental glances
Tells him that his chances are better out on the road”

She would not have enjoyed the Sermon on the Mount with no deodorant, crying babies, public bodily functions, eating during the service, open nursing, and many other “objectionable” things.

Whoever wrote that letter is a self righteous murmurer, consumed with his/her wants, and should immediately start his/her own church. A blog isn’t enough, start a church and have it your way and then you can deal with adult babies who cry about everything!

Signed,

A Christian

5   Matt    
March 6th, 2008 at 2:09 pm

People like Ingrid criticized Issac Watts, calling his hymns “whims” because they weren’t based on enough Scripture. The hyper Calvinists then thought you could only sing Psalms.

I’ve heard ancient Christian songs. They are nothing like the hymns that Ingrid likes. They sound freaky.

6   merry    
March 6th, 2008 at 2:32 pm

I want a church where everyone is considered family, where everyone accepted everyone the way they are and don’t complain and gripe about everything that doesn’t go their way. I want a church that isn’t worried about structure and formality but is worried about meeting the needs of everyone and obeying Christ’s commands to love God and love people. I want a church that’s bears each other’s burdens, so no one will have to worry about financial difficulties, etc, and will have people to turn to if times are rough. I want a church that is not centered around controversies about types of music and what people are wearing. I want a church that does not have any gossiping or bickering people. I want a church where I feel loved and safe without conditions.

Maybe in heaven. ;)

7   Neil    
March 6th, 2008 at 3:25 pm

I counted 18 “I want/I need” derivatives in that post.

Neil

8   anonymousjane    http://anonymousjane.wordpress.com/
March 6th, 2008 at 3:56 pm

I just want to attend Merry’s church. :)

9   Brutus    
March 6th, 2008 at 5:43 pm

Ingrid wants 1950. That’s “old fashioned.”

10   Neil    
March 6th, 2008 at 7:26 pm

That post has got to be a farce, or just something to bait us… no one puts that many “I want’s” and superficial (Man looks at the outside…) things in a post and is serious.

Neil

11   Christian P    http://www.churchvoices.com
March 6th, 2008 at 7:31 pm

They should move to rural midwest. I could randomly point at a map and find half a dozen churches like that. Their problem is that is what they think they think they want (yes I typed that right). They can easily have it. What they really want is to complain about other people. In the local church we call people like that gossips and complainers. When they get what they want, the church begins to die.

Two words: Grow up.

12   David C    http://davidcho.blogspot.com
March 6th, 2008 at 7:32 pm

I don’t get the picture of the ideal church Ingrid posted. Are those tombstones scattered outside the church building?

She wants a dead church?

13   Neil    
March 6th, 2008 at 7:54 pm

What the author wants, and Ingrid by posting it I assume is one very narrow expression of Christianity – one found routinely in one particular country for one particular period of time. If that’s what ya “want” – fine.

But the condescending, ethnocentric, arrogance that judges from purely external cultural behavior is truly mind-blowing.

Neil

14   mandy    
March 6th, 2008 at 8:32 pm

my head is going to explode. this isn’t serious… right?

15   David C    http://davidcho.blogspot.com
March 6th, 2008 at 8:44 pm

I think Neil is right.

I think Ingrid is doing the same experiment that Steve Camp did.

Camp supposedly did a “test” to demonstrate how Driscoll’s supporters are okay with is “smut” language against Christ, while they aren’t when the very same language is used against Driscoll. In the post linked above, Camp revels in the “success” of his experiment to expose Driscoll’s supporters.

I think Ingrid is doing the same thing here. She will say we don’t say a peep when Emergents, liberals, PD churches are so me-centered, but we are all over her for wanting the right things.

16   Phil Miller    http://veritasfellowship.blogspot.com
March 6th, 2008 at 9:03 pm

I don’t know. I think that those of you who think this is a joke are giving Ingrid too much credit. Remember - I am a pastor’s kid. I’ve been around people like Ingrid my whole life. Her rant is nothing new. I’d say it’s typical.

17   Tim Reed, Owosso MI    http://churchvoices.com
March 6th, 2008 at 9:18 pm

But it doesn’t really fit the mold of what either of those groups do or say.

18   merry    
March 6th, 2008 at 9:22 pm

After you guys read the “Wanted: An Old-Fashioned Church” article, clink on the Hope in Laodicea link in the blogroll and read the article entitled “Showing Love At Church.” :)

19   David C    http://davidcho.blogspot.com
March 6th, 2008 at 9:25 pm

Phil, I agree with you. I’ve been around people like her for most of my adult life.

But at times I still wonder. Do you think this is for real?

20   Phil Miller    http://veritasfellowship.blogspot.com
March 6th, 2008 at 9:35 pm

But at times I still wonder. Do you think this is for real?

It could be… Bush instituted Jesus Day while governer of Texas.

21   Evan Hurst    
March 6th, 2008 at 10:24 pm

what a whiner.

and Mandy, i think it’s real.

and Tim, OF COURSE all those hymns were written 2000 years ago!

i mean, it seems like every other verse in the New Testament includes somebody tripping over a pipe organ in some way or another.

22   Evan Hurst    
March 6th, 2008 at 10:39 pm

that website is probably real. the interwebs are full of blind halfwitted things like that.

It could be… Bush instituted Jesus Day while governor of Texas.

i wonder which constituency he was pandering to during that 2000 time period.

wait, wait…wait.

got it.

they bought it, too.

23   nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
March 6th, 2008 at 10:52 pm

AMAZING! That is the only thing I can say.

And she says WE are man centered. All I heard in that post was

I want it comfortable for me
I want it comfortable for me
I want it comfortable for me
I want it comfortable for me
I want it comfortable for me
I want it comfortable for me

24   Evan Hurst    
March 6th, 2008 at 11:01 pm

i’m also thinking the thing about Chuck and Sue and their distracting backrubs was a personal attack.

who are Chuck and Sue, and how precisely have they hurt her?

25   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
March 6th, 2008 at 11:23 pm

Now of course you all know according to Jim Bublitz, Jim W, Tony Rose, John Chisham, and Ken Silva (just to name a few)… it is all about me… at least whenever i am trying to just talk about the bible and truth… somehow they always say “it’s all about you isn’t it.”

It is sort of weird!

iggy

26   Dave Muller    http://blog.thewebsiteguy.com.au
March 7th, 2008 at 6:51 am

It is sort of weird!

Wow Iggy, I had never thought of that before! Now that you mention it, thinking to my own life that’s a good measure of selfishness.

27   sarah    
March 7th, 2008 at 10:50 am

“”They should move to rural midwest.”" I’m from the rural Midwest. Sorry…no such churches around here. We’re busy trying to emulate the cool hipsters of the west/east coasts, which of course, are all about ‘me, me, me.’ Kinda ironic, isn’t it? ;)

28   Chris P.    
March 7th, 2008 at 11:07 am

It is all about you.
Why defend Warren when he speaks out of both sides of his mouth?
The entire ad campaign for seeker friendly/puprose drivel churches is, “come where YOU feel wanted, comfortable”,i.e. “feel” the Lord’s presence.
It’s all about me (individualism),it’s all about us (community) what’s the difference? Neither are about Christ, the real individual, or His literal organic body, the true community.
You know neither the scriptures, nor the power of God. However you know all about Babel.

29   Tim Reed, Owosso MI    http://churchvoices.com
March 7th, 2008 at 11:23 am

We’re busy trying to emulate the cool hipsters of the west/east coasts, which of course, are all about ‘me, me, me.’ Kinda ironic, isn’t it?

They are? What gives you that impression? Other than that you don’t like the direction those churches are going and are upset because they’re not doing exactly what you want.

30   anonymousjane    http://anonymousjane.wordpress.com/
March 7th, 2008 at 12:07 pm

I think Ingrid’s post is real and it isn’t anything new. Ingrid often confuses her preferences with God’s preferences. She has no scriptural basis when speaking out against modern movies and music (no matter the content). Her scriptural evidence when speaking out against the modern church is often lacking and also boils down to preference.

Remember, in Ingrid’s world Halloween is bad because of its pagan roots, but Christmas trees are beautiful and okay because they are traditional and she likes them. There has always been sin, so I do not understand her fascination with 1950’s Americana.

Anyway, it is not surprising that Ingrid’s ideal church would better serve God and everyone else because Ingrid has trouble seeing past her own belly. I do think this an issue we all struggle with in some way; we just may not be as pushy about it. We all come into the Christian walk carrying our own baggage of biases and prejudices. Prayer is the best remedy.

31   Evan Hurst    
March 7th, 2008 at 1:10 pm

yeah, not only are Christmas trees pagan, but the actual holiday was kinda, you know, created to appease people. make Jesus’s birthday the same as the one we already celebrate for the Sun God (Sun=Son), and one day we’ll all buy gift cards for each other and put up trees and show up to the Wal-Mart at 4 AM to push each other with shopping carts.

Praise Jesus!

32   sarah    
March 7th, 2008 at 1:39 pm

Steady on, Tim. You sure jump t’ conclusions, quickly! I’m just correcting the thought that rural Middlewestern chuches are behind the times. And of course, pointing out the fact that we ALL want it ‘to be about me’('backwards rural’ or hip coastal). That’s okay…whatever floats our individual boats, right? Peace out, bro! :)

33   Darren Sapp    
March 7th, 2008 at 1:42 pm

“Sincerely, A Christian”……kind of like “The editor.”

“This kind of old-fashioned church might meet in a rented room, a home, a gymnasium, a new, modern building, a vine-covered, old brick traditional church, a little white frame building or anywhere else. It is not the location that matters, it is the content and focus of the worship, and the heart of the leaders of the church.”

The above of course does not apply to a church that rents a movie theatre. We were told by the ODM’s that those churches were embracing Hollywood.

34   Evan Hurst    
March 7th, 2008 at 1:45 pm

Also, if your church rents a community theatre, it’s embracing jazz hands and suddenly breaking into song.

35   nc    
March 7th, 2008 at 6:41 pm

Evan,

I just about spit out my coke after reading that!
too funny…

36   Evan Hurst    
March 7th, 2008 at 7:10 pm

:)

37   Cristina    http://baptist-girl.blogspot.com/
March 8th, 2008 at 5:49 am

I’m looking for a service that is founded upon and completely focused on God and His Word. I want to begin the worship with an entrance Psalm, to be reminded that in worship we enter heaven’s gates with thanksgiving and His courts with praise. I want to hear the name of God invoked at the beginning, opening the worship in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, without which Spirit, we worship in vain.

I need to confess my sins, receive the comforting assurance that God has forgiven me, and I want to corporately confess my faith with my fellow believers. I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our LORD…

I need to sing of God’s holiness, His attributes and His greatness through the hymns of the faith that have been handed down through the ages from the pens and the lips of those who have gone before us. Why? Because God is truly “Immortal, Invisible, God only Wise, in light inaccessible, hid from our eyes”. Because God is “Holy, Holy Holy,” our Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come. Because it is right and fitting that our souls should praise the King of Heaven. He is worthy of all our praise because He is “Lord, Enthroned in Heavenly Splendor”. To discard this canon of music of Christ’s church down through time is to turn our backs on our family in the faith. In 21st Century America, we truly do not know better than they.

I need to hear the Scriptures read out—as much of it as possible. Three Scripture lessons are hardly enough. How often has a passage of Scripture read out spoken to my heart about something? Why is Scripture so often limited to the text of a message, if it’s there at all now? The Old Testament Lesson. The New Testament Lesson. The Gospel Lesson. I need all the lessons that God’s holy Word can provide.

I need to hear the Scriptures preached from a man of God, who is a man of prayer and personal holiness and who takes seriously his office of under-shepherd. Why do I want preaching? Because faith comes by hearing, the Bible says, and hearing by God’s Word. I need conviction of the Holy Spirit in my own heart and life. I want to be reminded who God is and my duty before Him. I don’t want a pastor who spews vulgarities and crude talk to show how “real” he is, or who feeds on Hollywood so that the only thing that comes out of his mouth is foolishness in his pathetic attempts at cultural relevance. God’s Word is eternally relevant. I can tell where the pastor gets his life food from. It always, always shows. Any pastor who is not a man of the Word and of prayer is no pastor at all.

I want a pastor who prays for his sheep, who understands that we are in a spiritual battle, and that Satan hates us and will do anything he can to try to take our faith from us. I want elders who lead by example with their families. No family is ever perfect. That’s why we need the forgiveness of our Savior daily. But elders should be leading lives that are Christ-honoring in their marriages and in their leadership and training of their children. When the children of an elder are worldly and carnal and disrespectful, it is plain that they are not keeping their homes in order. This kind of leadership no church needs because how will the members learn how to run their own homes and families if no godly example is in view? We are sheep. We need leaders.

I want a time of serious prayer in church, seeking God for His help and wisdom in these dark times, for the needs of the congregation and for the witness of the fellowship in the community. As we kneel, we’re reminded of our utter helplessness without the Lord.

I want a benediction at the end of the worship, where the pastor tells us to go in peace, because we have been washed in the blood of the Lamb, have been forgiven for our sins, and have the joyful assurance that God is with us and will take care of us.

….I guess I must be from another planet because I sure would love to worship in this kind of church….and I do.

Cristina

38   Phil Miller    http://veritasfellowship.blogspot.com
March 8th, 2008 at 11:06 am

Cristina,
Shouldn’t we be asking what kind of Church God wants, rather than telling everyone what kind we want? It seems like God doesn’t really give a rip about the service if our hearts aren’t where His is.

11 “The multitude of your sacrifices—
what are they to me?” says the LORD.
“I have more than enough of burnt offerings,
of rams and the fat of fattened animals;
I have no pleasure
in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.

12 When you come to appear before me,
who has asked this of you,
this trampling of my courts?

13 Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
Your incense is detestable to me.
New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations—
I cannot bear your evil assemblies.

14 Your New Moon festivals and your appointed feasts
my soul hates.
They have become a burden to me;
I am weary of bearing them.

15 When you spread out your hands in prayer,
I will hide my eyes from you;
even if you offer many prayers,
I will not listen.
Your hands are full of blood;

16 wash and make yourselves clean.
Take your evil deeds
out of my sight!
Stop doing wrong,

17 learn to do right!
Seek justice,
encourage the oppressed. [a]
Defend the cause of the fatherless,
plead the case of the widow.

39   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
March 8th, 2008 at 12:26 pm

Chris P,

“come where YOU feel wanted, comfortable”

So your church is all about having people come where they feel unwanted and uncomfortable?

I think I prefer the “God” style church…

2 Cor 1:3-4

3. Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort, 4. who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God.

And as a worship leader yourself you are against ““feel” the Lord’s presence.”

1 John 3:19. This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence
20. whenever our hearts condemn us….

I am not sure what goes on in your church Chris P, but you sure have some huge big screens behind you in your pictures!

Are those not adding “comfort” in that someone can see the screen and read the words… I mean would not those old hymnals have been cheaper and just as easy to see? Are you sure you want no one to “feel” the presence of God in as you lead worship?

Man, this is all confusing to me as to the “standard” you set as well and Ingrid who wants pews in her home church as well as the pastor needing to wear a tie, and baptismal regeneration and RCC type liturgy in Chris R’s church and Ken’s “I am not a Calvinist”, Calvinism… and John C’s God is sovereign but is bound to judging us becuase of the Law, ( though it was fulfilled by Jesus and satisfied at the cross…

I mean I just can’t seem to nail all the Jello theology to the wall… can you help me I am so confuse as to how I am to leave the “uncertainty” of the emerging church and dive into all this “Unity” and “certainly” you all share?

Are big screens OK if I preach while wearing a tie and spout SPurgeon quotes as long as no one is comfortable and feels the presence of God?

Should I order some hymnals for my pews in my house while I baptise infants and call some Cal-minians “semi-pelagian” while others like you and Pastorboy I turn a blind eye to so we all can judge emergents and stuff?

I think I see more certainty and unity in the emerging/emergent than in your guys version of Christianity…

Oh and which Christian mystics are approved and which are not????

Which church fathers do I toss? Which Reformers do we all agree on? I mean they did not agree with each other, but then what should all that matter as we toss Church history to the wind and embrace your “theology” which again I really can’t nail down… I see more certainty in Brian McLaren than you!

be blessed,
iggy

40   Cristina    http://baptist-girl.blogspot.com/
March 8th, 2008 at 1:37 pm

Phil,
I would think this is what God would want in His church?

Cristina

41   Phil Miller    http://veritasfellowship.blogspot.com
March 8th, 2008 at 2:05 pm

I would think this is what God would want in His church?

Well, that’s pretty convenient then, isn’t it?

42   Cristina    http://baptist-girl.blogspot.com/
March 8th, 2008 at 2:37 pm

Phil,
Never mind, I shake my head.

Cristina

43   Phil Miller    http://veritasfellowship.blogspot.com
March 8th, 2008 at 2:50 pm

Cristina,
OK, I’ll be serious this time.

Frankly, the thing that is so amazing to me about Ingrid’s list, and yours, is that you are equating the whole of the church with the Sunday service. Also, everything listed in the lists is basically saying that everything that is wrong with the church is the fault of everyone but you. Either the pastor isn’t caring enough, the worship leader isn’t singing hymns, other people aren’t dressing properly, etc. The lists might as well be thanking God that we aren’t like those sinners over there.

I preach quite regularly on Sunday mornings, and I play in a worship band, but I have come to the conclusion that what goes on at that service is a very little part of what I do as a pastor. If people aren’t inspired to seek God the rest of the week, or if we don’t exhibit the love that God has for poor and marginal in our community, I’ve failed to some extent.

God is looking for a church that is after His own heart. He is looking for reckless worshippers of him. Whether they wear ties, dresses, sing hymns, quote Psalms, use drums and electric guitars, etc., is inconsequential.

44   Henry (Rick) Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 8th, 2008 at 2:57 pm

Christina, hello. There are many churches whose pastor loves and prays for his sheep. Many preach the word and many churches invite God’s presence. However, these are diverse in their structure. My reading of Ingrid’s post, perhaps based upon her past words, were that her vision of a church service was confined to her limited vision.

I want a church/gathering that experiences God’s presence. I have been in many different kinds of churches were that was true, however I have been in many where I could not sense God’s Spirit. It was either my problem or theirs. A husband rubbing his wife’s back has never distracted me. I also do not prefer a litergical style of worship service.

45   Cristina    http://baptist-girl.blogspot.com/
March 8th, 2008 at 4:01 pm

Phil,
I am going to be Quite frank here, if it was someone else that posted this on their blog, you would not make such a big deal about it. It is because it is Ingrid’s blog that you do and it really bothers me how much time you all spend putting this lady down.
There is so much you could do with God’s time like lifting folks up instead of having a blog where you belittle others by your sarcasm, to me it is just not God honoring…and please do not turn around and say well she does it too. You have to answer for yourselves.

Rick,
You said “I want a church/gathering that experiences God’s presence.” that is what I want and I think Ingrid was trying to make that same point. Most of the churches today are no focusing on God and honoring God and you would have to blind not to see it.

Cristina

And this will the last time I will respond. I will not return to this site to read anything it’s a waste of my time.

46   Tim Reed, Owosso MI    http://churchvoices.com
March 8th, 2008 at 4:06 pm

And this will the last time I will respond. I will not return to this site to read anything it’s a waste of my time.

Bwahahahaahahaha

47   Neil    
March 8th, 2008 at 5:26 pm

Cristina,

Your preferences for what entails a good worship service was a nice list… though I think Rick pointed out rather astutely that it was limited to just the worship service.

What Ingrid posted was her version of what a church should look like… ans her emphasis was on looks… in that post and others she shows a condescending arrogance wrought by her ethnocentric view of God. Put another way, she thinks God only likes what she likes and that’s a 1950’s Americana.

If you think her vitriolic nature and unsubstantiated attacks on fellows Christians are acceptable and we should not address her and the other ODM’s – fine. We believe otherwise.

Neil

48   Evan Hurst    
March 8th, 2008 at 5:44 pm

she stomped away.

49   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
March 8th, 2008 at 5:57 pm

Phil, you said,

I preach quite regularly on Sunday mornings, and I play in a worship band, but I have come to the conclusion that what goes on at that service is a very little part of what I do as a pastor.

That was beautiful.

50   kenn    
March 9th, 2008 at 4:03 pm

Reading Ingrid’s “I want” list and reflecting on things she’s said on her radio show in the past…Several years ago, when her family relocated to South Carolina, she would complain about how unfriendly the people in her church were, and that she never felt a part, or welcomed into their community. But maybe it was just her. You project an “everybody’s wrong but me” attitude, and you’re not exactly going to win people over. Maybe it never occured to this poor congregation that until Ingrid arrived, everything they were doing was wrong, and they didn’t even know it!

Maybe I’m just connecting a bunch of dots that may have no connection. But it does seem consistant with her general judgemental unpleasantness. I’m sure we’ve all been in situations where someone enters our group, club, association, board, etc., and insists on changing it to meet their needs. Good intentions aside, it usually ends up alienating more people than it wins over. Or the times on her show when she’d talk about how she’d storm out of a church, mid service, when she’d hear something that didn’t meet her narrow view of what a church should be.

I’m sure there’s a “Chuck and Sue” in every congregation…or someone that doesn’t dress quite right, or any number of issues that would pin the needle on the Ingrid “offendometer”. What never fails to puzzle me is her complete inabilty to see the good that comes from the church and the fellowship as a community. They gather every Sunday because they want to…not because they have to.

Can’t she lighten up? Just a little?

51   nc    
March 9th, 2008 at 4:23 pm

Cristina’s wish list reminds me of the church service I went to this morning…at my Episcopal parish.

Another thing…

For every person who comes over here and moans about wasting time and using time to “put people down”:

As soon as you prove that you have taken on the ODM’s for the so-called “same thing”, you’ll stop being intellectually dishonest hypocrites.

Nobody here works this site as a “ministry”…but the ODM’s this site exposes claim to be working for God.

They actually DO waste their time–all day long–working at tearing other people down and attacking people for every perceived failure.

To point that out and demonstrate what they actually are doing is NOT the same thing, no matter how many times it’s whined about by their sychophants.

That’s just some of that precious truth you all supposedly value so much…so long as it isn’t pointed at yourselves.