The Great Youth Specialties Upgrade
the ODMs have been harping on Youth Specialties for a while now. Their recent rant was over an advertisement for their annual leadership conference, The Core.
Youth Specialities CORE 2008 Generation Change Youth Conference is “calling students to change their world” and to Generate Hope, Peace, Love, Change, A new mind, A new heart, A new me, Justice. The plenary sessions include:
- THE JOURNEY OF TRANSFORMATION
- CREATING A TRANSFORMATIONAL YOUTH MINISTRY
- CHANGED PEOPLE ARE MEANT TO BRING CHANGE in terms of “Listen to God”, “Truly Deep Justice”, “Discovering your holy discontent” and “Joining God in Global Transformation”
Of course they brought up all the typical arguments of how meditating on scripture is a horrible thing, and guided prayer could never be a biblical concept. They gave this in response:
How can you generate the changes itemized in the introductory paragraph? Only through the blood of Christ, repentance and by the sanctification of the Holy Spirit as the believer learns to mortify the flesh and live the exchanged life as a new creation in Christ. But you won’t find that at the Core Conference.
Now, being a respectable “research” organization, I am sure they have done the background work and found that the blood of Christ, repentance and sanctification of the Holy Spirit are topics that are off-limits at The Core. Having gone to this event, I can tell you that this is far from the truth. Also, apparently the ODMs do not hold a very high view of scripture. In fact, it is the living word of God that bring about life transformation, and that is ultimately what Youth Specialties is trying to give the Youth today.
Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
How can a young man keep his way pure?
By living according to your word.I seek you with all my heart;
do not let me stray from your commands.I have hidden your word in my heart
that I might not sin against you.Praise be to you, O LORD;
teach me your decrees.
With my lips I recount
all the laws that come from your mouth.I rejoice in following your statutes
as one rejoices in great riches.I meditate on your precepts
and consider your ways.
I will meditate on all your works
and consider all your mighty deeds.
Sounds like meditating on scripture, recounting the word of God and listening for the voice of God may be a heretical concept to the ODMs, but certainly not to scripture. Which leaves me wondering… what is the big deal with this again?
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50 Comments(+Add)
In order to be credible, Phil, you must admit that there are some evangelical movements that are teaching “techniques” that they have borrowed wholesale from eastern religions. Even Tony Jones claims a certain enlightenment from walking with a shaman. Breathing techniques themselves are a spiritual distraction from prayer and have no New Testament foundation.
Meditation is a Biblical practice but it must not be poisoned by
an emphasis on repetition and breating techniques. I know nothing about the Youth Specialties you reference, but one only has to read some of Spencer Burke’s writings to see that some have erred from the truth. I reject dry and emotionless Christianity, and I firmly believe in experiencing the mystery in our prayer closets and worship, but as always we must be transparent and admit that not everything is of God.
Guided prayer is unscriptural? Well, there go the prayers used in liturgical churches, which I suspect the ODMs attend. I’d be especially interested to find out where Ingrid gathers with other believers on Sunday morning…
Rick,
I feel the same thing about repetition and breathing as I do Christian yoga. It may be strange, but it isn’t harmful, allowing spirits into your soul, or accepting new age theology.
Nathan – unless I have misread your comment I believe you are being sarcastic, right? If so, you are underestimating the subtle shifts that take place just by outwardly conforming to eastern mystic practices.
Is it wrong to repeat a passage of scripture over and over again?
Is it wrong to repeat a passage of scripture over and over again?
Aparently not if it involves to pee standing up.
From the previous post.
I think that is the ultimate question. Is it wrong to repeat scripture or practice controlled breathing while praying.
I also wonder if eschatological expectations play into this at all. I’ve seen some who hold to a great falling away condemn any who state goals such as hope, peace, and justice.
Neil
“Repetition” and “breathing” – as techniques, are exactly that – techniques. As as such are neutral and dependent on the reason for their implementation.
For example, in Eastern Mysticism the goal is to induce a trance like state – this would be unbiblical. In some Christian circles Scripture repetition is used to prove sincerity or to manipulate God – this is legalism. But if repetition or breathing techniques are used for other ends…
BTW – hoe many times can you repeat one verse before it becomes too Eastern?
Neil
Heaven forbid using a “technique” that might enable a person to experience God more fully…
I think it is erroneous to think that techniques such as breathing, meditation, repitition etc are ‘eastern’ (by which I assume people mean hindu/buddhist/taoist/shinto) rather than the various forms of eastern Christianity. There is ample evidence that such techniques have existed with the Christian church since at least the early desert fathers and mothers – 3rd century AD. There is a great danger that we assume the familiar is safe and the starnge dangerous – and that we ignore the ‘roots’ of our own religious practice (pulpit as a greek pagan religious practice anyone?) whilst finding the worst possible link to an unfamiliar practice.
Ian – It does not matter what the desert fathers practiced or anyone else for that matter. Our guide is not what people did or did not do, our pattern is the New Testament. Many of the so called “roots” were wrong and some of these practices were borrowed from pagan religions (i.e. Easter, monks, etc.).
I do not question people’s motives or hearts, but using “techniques” runs the risk of acheiveing a level of spiritual connection without connecting with Christ. If one must look at what people did or did not do as some insight than look at what the great preachers and revivalists that were unquestionably used of God.
Did Whitefield use breathing techniques? Wesley? Moody? Graham? How about the great missionaries? Does Paul address it, and if his spiritual life benefited from it, why did he not share that? The truth is that we should be very suspicious of these “new” techniques that cliam to bring people closer in their divine experience. Even more dangerous is that the entire journey to deepen one’s spiritual life through questionable techniques is an elaborate “bait and switch” deception.
I believe it reveals the shallowness and discontent of the westernbeliever’s spiritual life which he seeks to correct through something new and exciting rather than a substantive return to fasting, prayer, and an unsual and extreme return to God’s Word in obedience and witness. I do not believe the resistance to techniques is intransigence in this case, I believe it has genuine merit.
Rick
Are you saying that unless it is in the NT we shoudln’t do it? That only that licensed in Scripture is permissable? That in itself is not scriptural! The NT is pretty silent on how people prayed – indeed the scant evidence we have is that churches were fairly diverse.
Why just look at a few people from a couple of hundred years ago – people used by God a thousand or more years ago are also helpful for this surely.
They are not new – they are old, which is why I pointed to the 3rd Century. The pratices of 18th century revivalists are newer if we are using that issue as a measure.
For Whitfield et al see above. So unless Paul mentions it we should be suspicious? How do you reason that?
I would argue that it is the shallowness of modernist protestant Chritsianity that is driving people to ask what were the practices before this took place. Fasiting – YES! Prayer – YES! (although if it is just sitting in a circle and saying the odd Amen to show you agree then forget it – why not try praying like the early Chritsians did – the DESERT FATHERS Perhaps!!) God’s Word – Yes yes yes!! None of this contradicts any of the ideas above.
If you don’t like it – fine. But don’t suggest that your discomfort is the guide for a blanket rule.
Blessings
Ian
Generally, that is what I am saying, especially and more specifically when it comes to the affairs of the Spirit. These “early fathers” (I do not subscribe to that term) are what the Roman Catholic Church relies heavily upon when it is pointed out to them that some of their teachings are no where in Scripture. They stand upon some obscure early fathers and not the Scriptures.
There is no formula and no approved technique for seeking God, and some have taken the “old” and made it “new” suggesting that whatever the early Christians did was in fact more authoritative and spiritual. Now remember Rick Warren’s rule, treat your “critics” as coaches and see if what they say has any truth. I suspect that rule is very difficult to impliment with any degree of impartiality.
Thank you for forceful and yet apersonal discourse.
Rick
I do not recognise the idea of “affairs of the spirit” as a scriptural concept. All things we do ecclesiologically and vocationally should fall into this category, rendering it essentially meaningless. If we followed this rule on all things we would be paralysed – oh wait – isn’t that what they call legalism?
Seriously – what the early Christians did was no more or more less authoritative than any other age, but that means we CAN draw upon it as we can any age. I would suggest the western protestant church needs some rebalancing away from rationalism, and if digging these up again can help then it is a good thing.
Thanks
Ian
RE: Whitfield, et. al.
Wow. Thank God for them. I mean what we have done for 1700 years without them?
I appreciate what you’re getting at, but Whitfield, et. al. for all their contributions did not give us our Christology, our theology of the Trinity, etc.
Yes, the Fathers were only human, but they are the people God used to give us our baseline orthodox articulations of doctrine. You can’t escape that, no matter how hard you try.
Their abberations relate more to secondary issues, or non-conciliar explanations. What the RCC does with some of those things doesn’t make those folk suspect, it just makes the magesterium of the RCC suspect.
By that standard there isn’t a person we could be ok with reading, or reflecting on theology with.
I came to Christ in 1988, at the age of 23.
Right out of the gate, the first books I read were, in order: The Seduction of Christianity (Hunt), Mere Christianity, and Escape from Reason (Schaeffer).
During this time I became aware of many ministries, pastors, and para-church organizations, and I recall that there was much teaching on the coming New Age Movement and how it would influence and infiltrate every facet of our lives, even the Church. I still have David Jeremiah’s excellent series (cassette tapes) on the subject, among dozens of books and tapes by a variety of authors or ministries.
Through all of this there was a common theme: Be on-guard. There is a great deception coming as Truth would be mixed with Error. Common terminology may be used by the Enemy, but something different is meant.
I recall, too, that there was a strong emphasis on Presuppositional Apologetics. McDowell’s books, and many others, seemed to be in the forefront and not uncommon to see at Church or to hear referenced by another person. Through these books on “evidences” I learned that Christianity has a genuine, reasonable, historical basis which undergirds it. It is an intelligent Faith, not some Existential “leap in the dark.” Jesus Christ is the Christ of real History, and many “believers” have a counterfeit christ.
Something happened in Christendom in the mid-’90’s. The focus shifted from Knowing God (from His Word) to Experiencing God through various means. In my own town, we had the Brownsville Revival. I heard, firsthand, the leader of it (Hill) say to”forget about Doctrine” and to just jump in the “river.” Anyone who dared question the Experiences people were having were told they were Pharisees who were blocking God. From the platform one night, Hill said “don’t come to me with that junk” to those who would ask for Biblical support for the strange goings-on.
The whole Worship Music craze followed. Prophets and Apostles, promising a “word” (just for you!), began making the circuit. As a youth pastor, now of 17 years, I began noticing the advertisements for upcoming youth oriented gatherings – in center focus was the band or bands that were to play, while off in the bottom corner would be a 1 inch square photo of the Pastor/Evangelist who was to “bring the Word.”
I began noticing curriculum and how more and more questions like “how does it make you feel?” were part of Bible Study, and how the student seemed to be the ultimate subject of discussion. Jesus still saved, but the Jesus now presented by many has become the Jesus who came to save you from wrong perceptions about yourself, guilt feelings toward yourself, and who promises happiness, joy, and blessings – all for you!
It’s all about an Experience now. We are fascinated with this. We choose our dining, shopping, and recreation destinations based on Experience and “they” know this.
We run our churches like this.
We now think that we are clever enough to manufacture an Experience for people so that, with so many options to choose from, they will choose us/our church!
While I have gotten a “buzz” from the now formulaic music and methods at churches and conferences, I have never experienced anything of lasting value from it.
My life-changing experiences with God were the times that I was broken, in tears, aware of my own sin, at the preaching of His Word by someone who knew His Word.
Deception is always subtle. Your Experiences and my Experiences are not any standard of Truth. Experiences can be manufactured. We should be careful and weigh all things by the Word.
Ian said, “That in itself is not scriptural! The NT is pretty silent on how people prayed – indeed the scant evidence we have is that churches were fairly diverse.”
The NT was pretty silent as to how people prayed because there isn’t a need for redundancy. Jesus gave us the template when the apostles asked him to show them how to pray. Just my opinion mind you but, I think that template makes it VERY specific.
And Jeff, all great points. Been there, done that, still got a couple of t-shirts someplace!!
It’s funny. I’ve been reading Kierkegaard recently, and one of the things he is constantly talking about is how real Truth in the person of Christ cannot be objectively discovered. Once you think you have it nailed down it no longer is the actual truth, but a something else. To him “inwardness” is the greatest virtue a person can possess, and subjective truth is what Christianity is all about.
His reasoning is that when people see an objective truth, it is nothing more than an abstract idea or concept to them and won’t really change them at all. However, if a person internalizes a truth, it will change his behavior and cause action. It’s just interesting that he was writing this stuff in the 1840’s.
Nathan, you wrote:
“Of course they brought up all the typical arguments of how meditating on scripture is a horrible thing…”
Please show me one instance where Ingrid (or another “ODM”) states that meditating on scripture is a horrible thing. The fact is you cannot, because that is not the case.
Either you have no desire to understand their concern about eastern meditation compared to Biblical meditation, or you know the distinction yet choose to lie. I’d prefer to believe the former. Either way, you’d give yourself alot more credibility if you didn’t make such erroneous statements.
It seems to me that you and other writers here are blinded by your severe dislike for what you choose to group as “ODMs”. You have become what you claim that they are – single focused and full of unbridled and hypocritical criticism. Plank, meet speck (or vice versa).
Um, every five seconds on Slice there’s some post about how some church is doing something that’s supposedly “Christian,” but in a way that Ingrid thinks is, of course, heralding the big bad anti-christ.
Pot, meet Earl Grey.
Earl Grey, meet Pirate.
Pirate, meet plank.
Plank, meet Plinko.
Plinko, meet Bob Barker.
spay and neuter your pets.
How’s ’bout: this, or this, to lesser degree here.
The curious thing about the first two is her outright condemnation of meditation without comment.
Neil
Now this is funny, considering our very accusation against the ODM’s is their refusal to make proper distinctions in types of meditation.
Neil
Evan,
If your comment is an attempt to respond to my question, it fails to address what I asked. Nathan made a statement that cannot be supported. There is a decided difference between meditating on scripture and eastern meditation. If you cannot see the difference, I would suggest that you have chosen to disregard that difference, because the difference is quite distinctive.
It is one thing to disagree, it is another to mischaracterize and distort. And no, it is not an exceptable defense to say “but they do it too”. That is exactly my point in saying that this site is in reality no different from what the say the ODM sites are.
Neil,
You have proved my point for me. Thank you. None of the links you provided say anything negative about meditating on scripture, but all of them to warn about eastern meditation. You need to read more carefully. I appears as though you purposely intend to misunderstand.
I stand by what I said. Nathan wrote incorrectly, and I would hope that you could admit that. It seems as though you desire to defend his erroneous statement at all costs. I have not stated that he intended to lie, but I can say that you will not find that Ingrid has said that meditating on scripture is horrible. Simple fact.
This is exactly our point – it is a distinction that many an ODM refuse/cannot make.
Neil
Actually that’s my point – none of them make any distinctions between types of meditation. They just say, basically, Hindus meditate, therefore we should not.
Neil
oh, nonononono. half of my responses are serious, half of them are complete goofing off.
take them for what they are.
*grin*
it’s called “breaking up the monotony of a sales job.”
Eric,
If it makes you feel better, I will concur that I have no example of Ingrid saying that meditation upon Scripture is horrible.
But that is not the issue.
Neil
It’s also a good reminder that Eastern belief systems don’t have a corner on breathing exercises, that’s just biological. We do it naturally when we sigh when we get stressed, all these breathing practices do is activate it on purpose the same way we do it naturally and also how we also do it in other situations. It just so happens Eastern belief systems have the same biology to observe and use as anyone else..
It’s just another focusing tool like shutting your eyes or holding your hands together, I know plenty of people who pray without doing either, but I know I need the help to focus, and breathing exercises may be what others need to kick distractions, the same way some people pick specific locations or times, or with music on or with scripture in front of them, things that help shut out the distractions.
What I also find interesting is there doesn’t seem to be any adressing of the CORE at all but appear to be some random quotes from a few Youth Specialties books, so rather then adress the books, it seems that they are choosing to adress a training day that gets you equiped and amped to serve the kids in your community…that makes sense But I may be right I didn’t read all of the CORE site because I don’t want to spoil it for when I go (it’s always a highlight of my year), but does anyone see any of the quotes connected to the CORE? If I’m wrong I’ll gladly retract this last paragraph.
Neil,
I think it is fair to say that Ingrid cannot be expected to give an apologetic every time the warns about something to beware of. Ingrid has been quite clear many times that she is concerned about the influx of eastern meditation (involving the emptying of the mind) into the church and confusion with Biblical meditation (contemplating and dwelling on the revealed Word of God and on His character and being. Again, there is a distinct difference. Ingrid is not making up that fact that eastern meditation is working its way into the professing church and being promoted by professing Christians. I would hope that you would be equally concerned and join her is exposing this dangerous trend.
Evan,
I have spayed and neutered all of my pets, so I concur with your concluding statement.
Neil,
To be sure, my comments have nothing to do with “making me feel better”. And, it is exactly the point that there is no such example.
For review: Nathan wrote a post critical of a post on another website and in so doing grossly mischaracterized the position of the other poster by making an erroneous statement. I pointed out that erroneous statement. You defended his erroneous statement. I stood by my assertion that his statement was erroneous. You agreed.
My point in commenting on Nathan’s post is that he needs to hold himself accountable to that facts and and a fair characterization of an opposing view point if he hopes to be taken seriously. It is not in the spirit of constructive dialog to make such statements.
I think it is fair to hold Nathan accountable for the accuracy of statements that he makes on the blog. I would hope and expect that he welcomes that type of accountability.
Thanks for the comments.
Breathing techniques indicate that connecting spiritually is biological rather than through the Spirit. That is exactly what many eastern religions believe.
But we also serve a God that we serve in the biological and spiritual, it’s why we’re not Gnostics.
That is not gnosticism, that is Scriptural truth. Are we to assume God accepts only certain positions in prayer? Certain breathing techniques? Certain physiological operations?
Are we saying a person with emphysema cannot get as close to God as a person who can practice breathing techniques? The eastern mystics believe that physical techniques, bodily positions (yoga), and denying the body leads to a greater connection with God. Some of these “techniques” that some believers are endorsing they openly admit to have learned them from other religions. I cannot see how God has ever approved of that and in fact that kind of religious voyeurism was forbidden to the Children of Israel.
That doesn’t mean “unless you think they will benefit your spiritual lives”. No, that command is without exception. If we do something that other religions do then we need to just make sure it is Scriptural, but we are not to copy anything from other religions.
Wait. Then what are Christians doing when they fast?
Hm?
Fasting is taught by the Scriptures, breathing techniques (et. al.) are not. Fasting both accommodates greater time for prayer and Bible reading when one doesn’t eat, and it sets our focus on Christ alone.
As a side note, fasting is out of vogue in today’s evangelical genre, especially the kind where we cannot tell anyone.
“Are we to assume God accepts only certain positions in prayer? Certain breathing techniques? Certain physiological operations?”
Nope all I’m saying is that the physical stuff can really matter, because we’re not disembodied spirits we need to take into account physical things and for some people the breathing and positions can help them focus or break things up. It’s not about picking up heathen practices it’s about notciing when someone may be on to something about how the body works or how different people learn etc. that can be adapted the same way we adapt holidays, architechture, music, language and so on and so on from others when they’re on to something not about God per se but about us.
It’s not about getting “closer to God” it’s about looking at the different factors that can help or hinder people.
Well, then every church and christian that has been “down” on raising of hands in worship is in sin too…since the raising of hands is commanded in the Bible….
These discussions are stupid.
I’m a student of the ancient church and I can tell you that every person who says the church fathers and the desert fathers wanted us to “empty our minds” a la’ far east religion in meditation do not understand the desert fathers/patristics.
I would dare say that they have not read the body of their work in the primary texts…and until they do…you just a big ignoramus who’s talking out of your hat.
The Patristics were drenched in Scripture. So were the Desert Fathers…
Classic though…having a fake ministry from a false angry god criticizing things/philosophies/cultural shifts/history/etc. etc. you really don’t understand.
I’m over it.
Jeff,
You ended with this…
But earlier in your comment you said this…
Not one to quibble over semantics I’m assuming that you’re saying that your experiences are okay and brought you closer to God but anyone else who experiences God differently (worship, meditation, lectico divina) are suspect.
Now I could get into all the nuiance of your comment and break apart all the “experiences” you shared and how they formed you but I’ll resist.
Let me say, again, our current Americanized version of Christianity would not match up to most of the world nor would it resemble much of the churches history.
Chris – I believe our experiences are important substantiations of God’s Word, would you not agree? They cannot be the foundation of truth but they can be experiential revelations of God’s truth. Just an observation.
I reject cold and passionless Christianity that basks in its creed while void of broken experiences that not only reveal their doctrine, but attract others because of their transparency and love.
Bwahaha…
I knew Ingrid was lurking here. Look at this.
Funny how she goes to extrabiblical sources for the main part of her response.
Sola Scriptura Ingrid, live it, love it.
In part I would agree.
It takes only a cursory knowledge of scripture to see that God used many “secular” things to bring people into deeper revelation of him.
Chris,
It’s charitable of you to resist getting into all the nuances of my comment and not break apart all the experiences I shared. Such self-control can only be attributed to the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:22,23).
Our Experiences are not the standard of Truth. The Experience I cited is wholly supported by Scripture and nothing that was manufactured through any efforts at seeking an Experience. It came at the preaching of the Word.
See John 15:26, 16:7-14, Acts 2:37.
Please know I will continue to judge all Practices and Experiences, yours or anyone else’s, by the Word of God and by the Fruit that these Experiences and Practices are producing.
Please re-read my earlier post in its entirety. I think you will see the point that I am making.
Jeff
Phil,
After reading through Ingrid’s link there… I realized how… wrong… I was…
I thought Ingrid at least had “some” clue” but it seems she has none whatsoever and just loves to attack people and be divisive…
Now, that is sad… and since I know she is totally given to gossip and lying and slander of others and then does the very things and promotes the very things she attacks…
She fits the SCRITPURE which describes HER… It is Ingrid that as the relativistic/subjective.
The truly repentant heart is one of forgiveness, grace and mercy. not of judgment and condemnation of others. I pray for Ingrid that she finds the True Path of Christ and is released from her bondage of “religion”.
Blessings,
iggy
Of course I would agree. Yet, there is a distinction between employing hyperbole (even if such hyperbole renders an incorrect statement) and the point of an entire post. I can agree that Nathan employed a hyperbolic comment, and still acknowledge that the main theme of his post was correct.
Neil
True enough, Ingrid has many posts warning about the inroads of Eastern Mysticism. Yet, when I searched her site I saw none that delineated or defined – only judgments and warnings. So my contention still stands, she’s too quick to assume the worst, judge by association and appearance, and muddy the water by not making proper distinctions.
Neil
Iggy,
I agree she is slanderous, but on this site we should refrain from accusations of lying unless you are pointing out an unquestionable example.
Neil