Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.
- Ephesians 4:2
Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near.
- Phil. 4:5
Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
- Colossians 3:12
But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,
- 1 Peter 3:15
Do you see any of these Biblical commands in this article at Slice of Laodicea? Because all I see is condescending nastiness. It seems Ingrid’s love of scripture only extends as far as it takes to attack and destroy the parts of the body of Christ that don’t look exactly like her.
Perhaps this is a piece of scripture that escaped her notice:
If people are causing divisions among you, give a first and second warning. After that, have nothing more to do with them. 11 For people like that have turned away from the truth, and their own sins condemn them.
– Titus 3:10-11
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
128 Comments(+Add)
I suppose if you take a militaristic view of the Gospel – that God uses “Christian” armies to kill “Pagan” armies… then it’s a minor thing to assassinate someone’s character, even a brother in Christ, in the name of “Love of Scripture.”
Neil
yay, Easter’s over, Ingrid gets to be a pain again!
so much for new beginnings.
This post reminded me of this, which Tony Jones recently posted on his blog.
I’ve often wondered why Christians treat faith like politics. It seems to me that we so often get caught up in trying to convince others we’re right through the strength of our arguments, that we forget that we’re supposed to overcome by the “blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony”. If we act like contentious jerks, that doesn’t do a whole lot for our testimony.
If they won’t listen to scripture I don’t they’ll listen to Tony Jones.
They’re busy arguing about whether to worship on a mountain or in the temple.
Healthy food served on a trash can lid is unappetizing. Also, I continue to look for the uncomfortable post about some of the blog manager’s sins and not just the “we’re all sinners” cop out.
GASP!!
He’s CONSORTING !!!
I find it sadly hilarious that ODMs have their entire online (and in some cases offline) “ministries” based around being hostile and attacking towards brothers and sisters in Christ and when confronted with verses like those above they immediately jump to Elijah and the prophets of Baal, and a couple of passages in Galatians 5.
Meanwhile the numerous Biblical commands issued by apostles to the church for acting with gentleness, grace, and love are apparently optional.
How can we take their alleged orthodoxy seriously at all when their orthopraxy is so far out of line with what the scriptures teach?
Kind of like trying to build a diamond mine in a manure pit.
This is because we have sverely limited the definition of orthodox doctrine. The Trinity is orthodox doctrine, but being mean and ungracious to a store clerk is unimportant. You see, the fruits are not treated as doctrine (as Joe’s post suggested) on the same level as the virgin birth.
In essence, being like Jesus is subordinate to systematic theology. That is unbiblical on every level. It doesn’t mean that one can be kind and nice and God approves of your conduct, but it also doesn’t mean you can check all the systematic theology boxes and be mean and self righteous and God approves of your conduct. Their are certain unalterable faith issues that are of the creed nature, but their are also certain living revelations, epistles read of all men, that must be unalterable as well.
Admttedly this is a challenge, but it is nonetheless the will of God.
Tim,
It also helps if you consider those you oppose as outside the realm of brothers and sisters in Christ – it fits their Elijah motif much better to consign them Baal.
Neil
Someone should write a post on your behavior, your being, being more important than you systematic believing.
Neil
Neil – if faith without works is dead, than not behaving like Jesus means your creed is either incomplete or you are in part an unbeliever. No?
Careful Rick,
People will start to think that you and I agree on something besides the fact that cannolis will be at the marriage feast of the Lamb
Joe – I love how the Lord uses your voice to warn me when I am inching too far out on the emergent limb. Thanks!
LOL, Anything I can do to help Rick
Just wondering, Rick, how an article by you about the issues that Ingrid brings out in her article would differ. Especially, how would you write it so that people would know absolutely that you were behaving “like Jesus?”
How do you know that she has “faith without works?” I find it very offensive as a wife and a mother that another wife and mother is attacked by men as not being a “fruit-bearer.” Surely being a faithful and serving wife and mother is fruit that is valued by God. Yet you, who cannot see into her home, imply that she is not a fruit-bearer.
I find this especially offensive when the mother in question is one who has chosen to adopt. No I haven’t adopted, but I have many friends who have and I see it as one of the greatest steps of faith and acts of service that a woman (and man) can choose to do for the “least of these.”
Go ahead and disagree with what she’s saying about Rob Bell or give specifics about what you don’t like about the way she says it . . . but why judge her “works?”
Um because her works are full of hateful words.
It would seem to me Amy, that you are sexist
I did not specify Ingrid, and in that statement I was referring to all of us. I have not shied from disagreeing with Ingrid, but this issue is much greater than Ingrid. It even comes down to me.
I think the store clerk refernce was Ingridonian, but the rest is universal. We need to act and speak like Jesus would but since that classroom has been so lightly attended, it isn’t even offered in some corners.
I don’t know, I think I would be a little upset with Ingrid’s obsession with Rob Bell if I were Ingrid’s husband.
“It would seem to me Amy, that you are sexist”
No, that would be me.
No, she based her entire “offense” on the fact that we were criticizing a woman. She took that and ran with it that we were disparaging her as a mom.
I have never criticized Ingrid on the basis of anything but her tone and Biblical support for her correction ministry, especially when it invloves personally rebuking named pastors.
As far as a woman and mother, I have no personal knowledge.
wait, what? are you implying that only committed Christians adopt for the “right reasons”? and do we actually know why Ingrid chose to adopt?
people are judging the “fruit” she presents to the world. i see no one judging what goes on inside her home.
i mean, George W. Bush seems to have raised decent children. does that mean i’m impugning the “fruit he bears” when i point out that he’s presided over an illegal war that’s taken the lives of more Americans than Osama bin Laden has? i mean, he’s a “Christian” man and all…
duh. and craaaaaaanky, too. kind of a defining attribute of “those people.” cranky wanky missed her nap shove a passy in her mouth…
um, my dictionary says “Ingrilicious,” Rick.
haha. Ingrid has a secret cruuuuush. (and you all know what tone of voice and in what tune i typed that.)
.
How can the reader possibly know that?
Here’s part of “the rest” Rick, your first comment about the article:
I do believe that was about Ingrid. Is the “trashcan lid” her character, the way she wrote the article, what?
I really would be interested in how an article by you about the same subject would somehow demonstrate that you are “like Jesus.” How it would NOT look like “healthy food served on a trashcan lid?”
Joe,
I don’t know what you mean by that. It took me too long in my own life to see that the motherhood/wife roles in scripture are highly treasured by God. This isn’t the first time that Ingrid’s “fruit-bearing” has been attacked.
(Tim)
I have little doubt that Paul, Jeremiah, and a host of other biblical writers, if they were alive today, would demonstrate what you call “unbiblical” behavior.
In essence, being like Jesus is subordinate to systematic theology. – Rick
Someone should write a post on your behavior, your being, being more important than you systematic believing. (Neil)
Then why do quotes like this come up so often?
Let me put this in words you might truly understand: By all accounts, Chelsea Clinton is a fine, fine young woman. Are people impugning Hillary’s “biblical roles” if they go after her on policy? (Or on made-up reasons to hate her?)
By this logic, you’re saying that any woman who is a good wife and mother should somehow be shielded from criticism over things that have NOTHING to do with their actions in those roles.
Someone should write a post on your behavior, your being, being more important than you systematic believing. (Neil)
It’s already been done, Neil.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080322.CHURCH22/TPStory/National
By the way, when I read that article I felt like the ideas presented sounded so familiar . . .
Ethan,
The criticism I was “shielding” Ingrid from is the idea that she isn’t a fruit-bearer.
Surely you’ve read enough of this site to know that a person can’t be both a “watchdog” and a “fruit-bearer.” Just look and I bet you can find hundreds of comments that would support that idea.
The trash lid is the self serving and hyperbolic verbiage that sometimes is the conduit for authentic Biblical correction. The word “manager’s” should have been spelled “managers’” since I meant it to mean the bloggers who criticize others.
It’s already been done, Neil. – Amy
It’s been done here as well, thus my point.
Neil
Amy – that article you linked to would be rejected by every writer here and you know it. So you made a disingenuous attack by using that link. No one wants to take Christ out and you either do not understand or are purposely misrepresenting an appeal for living and speaking like Jesus while still espousing doctrinal truths.
Living and speaking like Jesus IS a doctrinal truth.
Just curious…maybe this has been covered here before, I’m sure it has and I’ve missed it…why is there no “Comment” section on either of the main sites often cited here – Apprising and Slice? No room for discourse or questions?
I just find that odd for websites that often make very broad, sweeping, and black and white statements…
If Scripture is purportedly held so high on these sites, and the Truth is being put out there, then why so afraid to allow engagement in any dialogue?
Just curious…
why is ingrid’s fruit bearing being attacked?
scratch head……….what fruit?
while sol may generate a bit of of helpful, thoughtful info, for the most part what we read is fruitless attacks on any and all they disagree with.
if a dispassionate, unbiased person read sol would they come to the conclusion that the writers love jesus and love his followers?
at the end of the day the only thing that matters is how we live our faith. and the only way we live our faith is in our relationships with others. james is clear we are justified before men by our works.
chuck,
when you have all the truth and are the final authority why allow for comments? that would suggest truth is up for discussion or that you might me wrong. the fundamentalism of sol and apprising allow for no grey areas, no doubt, not questions.
you just need to read sol and apprising like the bible.
Chuck – I believe the no comment policy is because it would require all of their time and they would have many quandries about montering. To my knowledge Ken has never allowed comments and Ingrid has gone back and forth.
Amy,
Are you really suggesting that we are calling into question her “fruit” as in her children? I think you are a sexist because a criticism was brought up about her writing and you tried to defend it by using her sex. In other words you are a sexist.
Amy,
I too am really confused by your motherhood comments – how is that relevant to the original post?
Neil
Good grief, Ingrid’s fruit is not even hers if she does bear any. We are fruit bearers and are blessed if we show even a little for it is God’s fruit not ours. He will bear fruit on and in whomever He decides. The issue is that if one is continually practicing pride, then they will not bear God’s fruit for God opposes the proud and gives grace to the humble.
So to inspect others “fruit” in the way so many do, is to judge God.
Now, we are to judge others whether the fruit that is being presented as God’s fruit and it is not, they are in a dangerous position as they have exchanged their works for GOd’s.
Also, when we do judge other’s fruit, it is out of humility and the understanding that it is not about salvation, but about gently bringing them more and more into God’s will and purpose.
We can judge some fruit. It was the fruit of the religious. Jesus never stated to judge the fruit of the sinner… for obvious reasons.
“By their fruit you will recognize them.” Matt 7:16 states that we will recognize them… not judge them… or especially condemn them!
Now how can we recognize them?
I can only tell you how many times i have been cursed by ODMs!
Again, the way to know who these religious people Jesus spoke of are, is in 2 Corinthians 3 which speaks of two ministries that these people practice… the ministry that brings death, and the ministry the condemned… contrasted with the ministry of reconciliation.
So who are those that bear bad fruit? Those that practice and preach the ministry that brings death and condemnation. Again they exchange their works and righteousness for Jesus’s.
If the ODM’s shoe fits, then it fits be them a mother or sister or high priest of the ODM order.
Blessings,
iggy
OK – after Rick’s comments I read the article that Amy linked to… Geesh, absolutely and completely irrelevant to anything anyone here has ever proposed.
No one who posts here has ever said anything even remotely close to what that article describes.
Shame on you Amy for impying that…
Neil
Amy,
How dare you judge Rev. Gretta Vosper fruit as she might be a mother and a wife!
OK that’s all I get from your point…
Man… not much more to say as to why I get frustrated in conversing with you…
iggy
To put the wife/mother thing in perspective, look at it this way: numerous comments are made about Ingrid (as well as other ODM’s) about their lack of fruit. I believe that if Ingrid were single and spent the amount of time that she now spends being a wife and mother working with AIDS victims that you all would be less likely to talk about her “lack of fruit.” So I think that you all aren’t viewing the faithful wife/mother job as “fruit.”
As many neglect to do . . .
Amy,
I would be happy if Ingrid spent the time and energy she spends bashing other Christians being a wife and a mother. Heck, I think it would be more beneficial if she backed away from her blog spent her time playing Halo.
Where did you ever get the idea that we don’t respect wives and mothers?
being a good mother/wife is her job/calling/responsibility. does a woman get more brownie points with god if she has a lot of children? more fruit in her basket?
it seems it would be best for ingrid to get off the radio, close the blog, stay and home and keep working on having a quiver full. wouldn’t that be the best fruit bearing?
how about ingrid being a wife and mother and working with aids victims rather than being the homophobic she is?
Well, you are entitled to that belief but that has nothing to do with this thread or us pointing out the hate she spews regularly. (Side note, Hi Ingrid, Ken and Jim)
For what it’s worth, I think you’re wrong, crazy, insulting and still sexist. My wife is a stay at home mom and I support her in that 100%. I even help around the house, as I am sure other contributors here do. What Ingrid writes is hateful. She may well be an excellent mother or she may be abusive. I don’t know, I’ve never seen her in that context so I have never commented about her in that context nor do I intend to start.
Personally, I would take this sentence out:
It reminds me of a spoiled child denied something he wants.
And if I wrote something like that myself I would scrutinize it many times before publishing it. I have looked at it a few times, and there may be things about it that if I were writing I would feel like were better said another way.
And if I had written the article that you wrote and were aiming to be gentle and respectful I would have said things in a different way than you said them.
How am I supposed to “judge” the gentleness and respect in her article? By your personal standards? By the standards of other comments I see on this site? If gentleness and respect are so important to you, please bring it up in a more consistent matter. You could do lots of admonishing regarding gentleness and respect on this site.
Since I assume that Paul himself as well as John and Peter were open to the ideas of gentle correction, then I would assume that they were not out of line in some of the things they wrote to and about false teachers – things that would not seem gentle or loving or respectful to us at all. But things that were nonetheless loving because they were warning people they loved about ideas/people that could do them great spiritual harm.
If Bell is doing what Ingrid says he is doing she could have simply quoted some of Paul, Peter, or John’s writing about false teachers. And some OT authors as well. Her words would seem “nice” by comparison.
If what Ingrid says is true then add to your article Tim all the numerous passages that talk about false teachers and not following pagan practices.
You cited this passage,
- Titus 3:10-11
I assume that the people after receiving the “first and second warning” would have been put out of the church or sent on their way if they were traveling teachers?
It’s not possible to send people who have ministries that reach out to the world on their way is it?
But if you think that this passage applies to people whose ministries reach beyond the church then I suggest that you have nothing more to do with Ingrid.
Evan. it’s Evan. i expect people to mishear “Ethan” (but more commonly Kevin or Devon), but not to misread it.
the point is that no one is casting any aspersions on Ingrid’s home life. it’s about what she says when she gets on her computer or the radio and the hatred trickles through her fingers and the disdain slithers through her vocal chords. she might be a smashing mother and a peach of a wife.
don’t know, don’t care. what happens in her household is her own business. (see, Those-Who-Would-Want-To-Regulate-My-Personal-Life-And-Deny-Me-The-Right-To-Visit-My-Spouse-In-The-Hospital-Because-Of-Your-Religion? it goes both frickin’ ways.)
omigoodness….no, Amy. if Ingrid spent all the time she spends on her blog and on the radio whining/moaning/complaining/bloviating/hating anything and anyone that doesn’t fit in her narrow-minded ignorant box of beliefs working with AIDS victims, people would be less likely to talk about her “lack of fruit” because, omigoodness, look! there would be fruit! someone might actually see Christ in the woman.
this still has nothing to do with what kind of a mother or wife she is.
maybe she’s a great mom!
maybe she’s not!
if the Sally Kern situation has taught us anything (an Ingrid if i ever saw one), it’s that these kinds of bloviating viewpoints can in fact filter into the family situation. aren’t she and her son, like, estranged?
my mom’s got some Ingrid in her. she and both of her sons are about 80 percent of the way to estranged.
so maybe she’s not! the point is that we don’t know, and that is absolutely irrelevant to the discussion.
weeeird tangent….
I think the comment right above yours explains where I’m coming from Phil.
And to address some of the other comments, I’m not talking about just “having children” or “having lots of children.” I’m talking about the role of being a godly mother who brings up her children to love God, others, and serve Him. That is fruit.
I guess the bottom line is that you all are “anti-watchdog” and regularly communicate that anyone who is the least bit “watchdoggy” couldn’t possibly be “bearing fruit” in any way. Please don’t tell me that you don’t regularly communicate that.
okay, let’s concede the point:
Ingrid MIGHT BE BEARING FRUIT as a wife and a mother.
the portrait she presents to the outside world does not taste like fruit, but rather like rotten spam with knives inside.
That actually made me LOL. LIterally. Which is rare, usually I write LOL its not true. But that one did.
Driscoll says “crap” or likens Jesus’ birth to coming from a trailer park and there’s nothing but a howl of choruses that are certain beyond any doubt that he sinned because of his language. But Ingrid writes an incredibly condescending piece in which she pictures herself as a parent wagging a finger at Bell, the child and suddenly you’re overwhelmed with uncertainty (which I was almost sure only postmodern emergent hollow men of the … whatever do), not to mention that she threw in there every lie and slander the ODMs constantly repeat to themselves.
So why the uncertainty amy? Other than that in this case its someone who you have never expressed disagreement with on this site, in all your voluminous comments.
Sorry about getting your name wrong Evan.
Ingrid and her son estranged? Not that I know of.
Exactly what I was saying, Ethan. Working in a loving way with AIDS victims can be fruit coming from the love of God; so can being a godly mother and wife. For people to assume that Ingrid has a lack of fruit shows that they make assumptions about her NOT being a godly wife and mother.
Simply I’m tired of the assumption that watchdogs don’t bear fruit.
Since you feel quite free to, ahem, kindly and gently talk about how you see Ingrid:
. . . how do you define your own conversation and beliefs?
was talking about Sally Kern.
no.
it.
doesn’t.
period.
Oh we’re not anti-watchdog at all. In fact I love actual watchdogs like Ravi Zacharias, Mark Driscoll, Stand to Reason, JP Moreland etc.
well, i make an effort to understand where people are coming from, and i don’t make a career out of telling other people how wrong they are for believing/doing as they do.
i fail.
we all do.
but i try to move on from it and do better next time.
with the Ingrid, the hate-spewing is her M.O.
Evan.
unless you’re giving me permission to call you Carl.
Amy, be careful you’re going to pull a muscle reaching like that. I’m willing to say that I don’t think she’s Godly. You’re bringing in her motherhood is just obfuscating the issues, which again is your prerogative.
There is a Biblical disconnect in Inrgrid’s piece on Bell. I happen to have the same concerns over some of the issues she raises, however she suggests that people like her are willing to be called mean and angry because they love souls.
I continue to wonder which souls she loves enough, the ones God makes understand those Biblical truths or the ones God refuses to help understand and lets them remain pawns of deception? What kind of love shares Biblical truth with dead people and sinners on their way to an unalterable hell?
One might call that “salt in the wounds” kind of love. Maybe a “I choose not to help you” kind of love. And of course a “see ya, see ya, wouldn’t wanna be ya” kind of love.
I’m sorry if I sound mean and angry, it’s just because I love souls!
haha. this calls for quoting a full song. the lines speak to what Rick just said (and some other things)
it’s called “Soldiers of Christ” by Jill Sobule (who rules.)
Our lord loves the family, our lord loves the saved
Our lord love the unborn babies and the NRA
Our lord hates the liberals, the faggots and their friends
We’re soldiers of Christ and we’re here to defend
The way it used to be
The way it ought to be
The way it’s going to be again
In the days of Cain and Abel
In the days of crusades
In the days of inquisitions
They made the damned behave
Before emancipation
Before Roe Vs. Wade
Before they taught little children
That they evolved from apes
The way it used to be
The way it ought to be
The way it’s going to be again
And when we’re in heaven you’ll be sorry then
Our lord loves the sinner as long as he don’t sin
He knows the thoughts you’re thinking
He knows with whom you’ve been
And out lord loves this country, he’s with you at the polls
He knows the lever that you pull
He’s keeping track of souls
The way it used to be The way it ought to be The way it’s
going to be again And when we’re in heaven you’ll be sorry
When we’re in heaven you’ll be sorry When we’re in heaven
you’ll be sorry then!
Amy,
I think the point is that it’s hard to say the fruit of a tree is safe to eat when the tree has been known to produce poison apples. So, yes, I would the say that a lot of the hateful things that the watchdoggies spew negates any good they might do to a large extent, at least in the eyes of a lot of the people who see what they write.
now, we haven’t discussed yet whether Ingrid is a product of biotechnology, in which case, she could bear tasty amazing fruit at home and yet vomit corn nuts at the rest of the world.
We don’t regularly communicate that (unless you’re a sycophant of the particular brand of full-time-yet-amateurish hate-mongering at SoL/C?N/AM blinded by the “discernment” displayed by these angels of light…)
Just yesterday, I recall recommending SEVERAL “watchdogs” in this thread. They were:
All of those – even when I disagree with their position on a particular topic – are of a caliper, when compared to the ODM’s we normally discuss, of an NBA All-Star vs. a 7-year-old parapalegic with a basketball on his lap. We have no problems with actual “watchdog” ministries, per se, but rather the garden-variety gossipmongers (like Ken, Ingrid and company) who continually spew hate into the body of Christ.
good mother. bad mother. fruitful mother unfruitful mother. how do we judge? dare we judge? such a subjective issue.
i do know this…….if ingrid treats her family like she treats those she disagrees with……….she is not a good mother/wife. if she is as mean and hateful towards them as she is rob bell/brian mclaren,tony jones/anyone that is not a fundy like her, then she is not a good mother/wife.
usually the fruit we bear in public is far better than the fruit we bear in private. we learn at an early age to play the “good” christian game. say the right things. do the right things. go to the right places. expert facade builders. looks great, no substance.
my point……….if i am an sob in public i am probably a ______ _____ _____ sob in private.
chris,
caliper………….haven’t used one of those since machine shop days
touche, Brute
Certainly, bringing Ingrid’s skills (or lack thereof) as a mother, into the equation is a complete non-sequetir, akin to saying that 2+2 is unequal to 4 because the sky is blue…
Also, Iggy makes a perfect comparison that it is utter hypocrisy for the same person trying to drag Ingrid’s mothering skills (or lack thereof) into the picture to also then post a link to Gretta Vosper (who we would disagree with about as much as Ingrid) in disapproval…
But such hypocrisy isn’t uncommon in ODM’s and their blind sycophants…
Amy,
Now it matters nothing to me if she was single of married ten times… if she did the other things you stated, she would not have time to judge others… she would be too busy doing God’s work and not doing her own…
Again, I am at a loss at your point. I know of no one that judges Ingrid, only those that care enough to point out that she judges people by one standard and then lives by another herself… Jesus pointed that out in the religious people of His day who attacked Him and the disciples… and the prostitute and the tax collector and the other sinners Jesus hung out with.
Again, I believe the energy Ingrid expends on her “straightening out everyone else” is lost to more productive things.
I see that even in your own words about her, you seem to be saying what everyone else is saying and you are in agreement with all of us!
iggy
Tim said: “Perhaps this is a piece of scripture that escaped her notice…” (then quoting Titus 3:10-11) “After that, have nothing more to do with them.”
So does this mean CRN.Info will be moving on to a different topic/basis for existing?
You know what Keith, sometimes you take all the fun out of life! We all want windows not mirrors. Think before you speak!
Again you misrepresent us in general and this post in specific. We are not anti-watchdog – we ourselves are watchdogs of the watchdogs. We are anti-all the wrong tactics, logic, attitude employed by most ODM’s.
Please read the pages on this site that delineate how we are different and the use of logic.
Neil
No one said she lacked any fruit absolutely… the whole fruit-bearing issue needs to remain in it’s intended context – her ministry on the air and web.
Neil
Rick,
Rick, could you please explain what particularly is “mean and angry” about her article? Especially in comparison with what you write?
(Tim)
Do you really agree with this? Your comments about Ingrid’s article are what started my questioning here. My questions were addressed to you, no one else. I know that you probably agree with what Ingrid said, yet you criticize what she said.
And I am honestly confused.
Rick you’ve never answered my question (unless I overlooked it) about how you would have written the article that she wrote differently.
Basically, you’ve said some of the same things about Rob Bell, haven’t you?
You seem to have no problem speaking what you see as “truth” on your site and sometimes here. I look at some of your writings, for example, “Enemies of the Cross,” and “Behold It Unfolds Before Your Eyes” and really, really wonder why you are criticizing Ingrid.
You say, for example,
I’m sure I could find more. And I’m sure I could find names of specific men.
Please explain to me why it’s okay for you to state what you believe, and not Ingrid.
I’ve seen people here “attack” you for stating what you believe. You’ve been called a few names. How do you justify continuing to say things which aggravate people? Is it because you “love souls” and care about those who are being deceived?
Neil,
But isn’t it “her ministry on the web” that makes people who don’t like it assume that she is all doctrine and no love? That she puts orthodoxy before orthopraxy?
How do you explain the oft-repeated statements about watchdogs not being fruit bearers?
I’ve seen these kinds of statements often, and yes often about Ingrid.
Evan really “proved” my point in a sense about the mother/wife role not being seen as fruit. when he made the statement about working with Aids patients would be fruit and noone would be complaining.
Rick, could you please explain what particularly is “mean and angry†about her article? – Amy
In this one short pericope she call him: In relation to Scripture – a distorter, denier, and rejector; in relation to others – a liar, pied-piper, misleader, and promoter of false doctrine; in relation to God he is angry; in relation to other faiths a consorter… and you ask what now?
Neil
Not sure that Evan speaks for me. Hold on, I’m looking for that paper…oh here it is! Nope, I speak for me, not Evan.
Again, you are taking something out of context. The argument made was that her vocational ministry bears no fruit – this is completely irrelevant to whether or not she bears fruit in any other aspects of life.
He did no such thing… once again (I’ve lost count) you misrepresent the context. Evan is talking about vocational ministry bearing fruit and this is completely irrelevant to any aspects of her parental abilities.
Amy,
I absolutely believe what I wrote. Look at the way Ingrid, and ODMs in general use scripture. When they are confronted on this issue they quote from one passage in Galatians, point to the example of Elijah with the prophets of Baal and it ends there. There is no serious contemplation of the numerous Biblical commands to be filled with grace and gentleness found in the NT and given directly to the church by the apostles.
Ingrid uses the Bible like a weapon. She uses pen knife theology to justify her tone, and ends up looking far more like Jesus’ enemies than Jesus. It reminds me so much of the scene from Saved! where Hillary Faye screams “I AM FILLED WITH THE LOVE OF CHRIST” while launching her Bible at Mary like a missile.
Also note the use of the words “it seems”. That is exactly what it seems like. I read her website, I’ve listened to her radio shows online, and it seems like she only loves scripture enough to find out how to attack other parts of the body of Christ. That may not be the case, but since I only have access to her writings at SoL and the podcasts posted it sure seems like it is.
Amy – no one is free from unfortunate hyperbole, let’s admit that. I have said things I later regretted, mostly in style and not substance. But if you cannot see the difference between my tone and Ingrid’s I believe you are not impartial. I have had confrontational discussions with men who write here, sometimes uncomfortable, but I challenge you to ask them if they place me in the Ingrid category.
On my blog I have written about Rob Bell (very infrequently) but always in a doctrinal context. I continue to believe, as I have said, that he is a Christian, has a heart for the poor, is a family man, and is intellectually superior. I cannot remember addressing him personally or calling him a spoiled child or any other personal invective. I have sincerely avoided those things with some imperfect success.
But I can never get away from an unordained woman publicly rebuking an ordained minister of the gospel and even using personal barbs and challenges, sometimes in the most verbally demeaning ways that have absolutely nothing to do with doctrine. You will never see it as do I.
One other thing, Amy. In the interest of fairness Rob Bell is a father and a husband so in your dictionary he is a fruit bearer. Unless it only applies to women.
Amy,
Your whole argument seems to be saying that we shouldn’t criticize Ingrid for what we do see from her because, for all we know, there are lots of things she might do that might be good. That might be the case, but isn’t she responsible for her actions at all times? Just because she’s nice at home, doesn’t mean she has a pass to be mean-spirited on the web.
Even if Ingrid volunteered her free time to help AIDS patients, it wouldn’t free her from being accountable for things she says on her blog. At best she would be dealing with some inconsistencies in her walk, and at worst she would be living a double life.
i most certainly did not!
i said that if she spent the time she spends on HER BLOG and on THE RADIO helping AIDS victims, then people would see that she bears fruit. obviously we’re talking about her “spare time” here. nobody, but nobody, and still nobody impugned the idea of being a good wife/mother. i figured after a good night’s sleep this line of reasoning would be dead, but…
Nice, Joe. you should read the memos i send.
they clearly explain that i speak for you.
bwahaha….i love that scene.
eh, i love that whole movie.
“But judge, my client is a wife and mother. Why don’t you judge her by that fruit, rather than the fact she stole that money from the orphanage?”
(for those who don’t understand parody, I’m not saying Ingrid stole from an orphanage – I’m just making a point…)
Great point Phil. I’m a husband and father, when is Amy going to launch an email crusade at my critics?
oh, you’re a husband and father now?
sexist.
I just see that when we here “judge” others fruit, using their own standard they balk and cry and play, “You do it to!” but never actually face the fact of their own hypocrisy.
There is one standard for themselves and a much higher one for their enemies…
Sad really,
iggy
haha, this has nothing to do with anything, but i wanted everybody to see Ingrid’s latest pearl of wisdom. in case you haven’t been there to see the context, she’s railing against the Harry Potter texts being used in colleges. no mention of what classes are involved…i mean, if it’s a pop culture or modern lit class, then, um, who cares? somehow she manages to envision a curriculum where one can major in Harry Potter. yep.
oh yeah. Harry Potter bad hate Jesus made of cornnuts work of the Devil full of raspberry jam blahdiblahdiblah.
i’m trying to remember which classes in my secular university taught me to hate America. oh, i remember now. it was my chemistry lab freshman year. which was sooooo weird, ya know, because, like, it’s chemistry.
but that’s what happens when “libruls” teach.
haha
ingrid’s comment about college is not true. it simply is not true. it effectively tars and feathers a whole generation.
i went to a christian college many years ago, back when gas was .70 a gallon. the college was as right wing and fundy as you could get. yet in my time there i saw, and participated in, the very things that ingrid exposes in public colleges. the only difference is, at the christian college, sin is covered up, hushed up.
i went to a strip club for the first time while attending a christian college. the funniest thing……..as i was entering i ran into one of the deacons of the church i attended. he was on his way out. looks were exchanged. no words needed. busted!!!
all i am saying is………..the fantasy christian world that ingrid lives in doesn’t exist. the only difference between me and my heathen neighbor is grace.
Just like Christian high schools…
in Memphis, the difference between the private Christian high schools and the public secular high schools is as follows:
1. the kids are white, and so less likely to be harassed by the police for their drug use.
2. the kids have more money, so their drugs are more expensive, since they get them from the public school kids who mark them up for the dumb kids pulling up in their BMW’s.
3. the kids have more money, therefore they’re able to get away with more of whatever they want to do, because they learn how to fly under the radar.
“We are anti-all the wrong tactics, logic, attitude employed by most ODM’s.” …Because OUR tactics, logic, attitude are holy, always honorable, and without error.
We are also always “humble and gentle; …patient, bearing with one another in love.”
Phil,
Maybe it’s not intentional, but I feel like you and others are putting words in my mouth.
I was responding specifically to Rick’s comments, and the repartee between Neil and Rick, which I felt generally reflected the “that person is a watchdog therefore she has no fruits” mentality.
As far as “what we do see” however, I think that this site has not earned the right (if such a right could be earned) to talk about kindness and respect. (I am not speaking of you personally.)
Neil,
Do you have a problem with what Ingrid said regardless of whether it is true or false?
In other words, if it (or part of it) is true do you still have a problem with her saying it?
In a recent comment by Phil he said that people should not be doctrinal police. One of the people that came up as being someone who should not be “doctrinally policed” is Benny Hinn.
Now most of you could find several points of significant disagreement with Benny Hinn.
But he shouldn’t be “policed.” Do you agree with that?
So, back to my question, is it that you believe what Ingrid says is false or do you simply not believe in “policing?”
keith,
the high road is always easiest to take. but when you fall it is a lot farther to the bottom. (personal experience)
i despise everything associated with the odms. their tactics and methods are better suited to the devil than god.
having said that……..i recognize that on any given day i may not be any better than them. different sins perhaps, same problem.
maybe someday……….christians will really be christians, and prove it, by really loving one another. until then, we have little to offer the world.
benny hinn should not be policed. he should be ignored. for all the odm blather about hinn………….have they kept anyone from sending bro benny their money? i doubt it.
benny hinn is a 21st century elmer gantry. we will always have such hucksters.
ignore him. stop sending him money. he will go away. no money. no benny. praise jesus heaven on earth.
“benny hinn should not be policed. he should be ignored. for all the odm blather about hinn………….” My point exactly. All of the time and effort put into policing Ingrid, et al, simply drives up their traffic, which is something I assume you WOULDN’T want to happen. Seems like you’re all just helping their cause. Every time you post something about one of their posts…I GO READ IT, and I’ll bet (if I were a betting man) most others do too.
well, and the Benny Hinns of the world (and most Christians who go on the teevee) are pretty much universally viewed as scam artists…
so, it doesn’t seem like a valuable waste of time to go after them.
i can think of muuuuch better ways to waste time.
Rick,
I also don’t like the “spoiled child” reference. Did I already say I don’t always appreciate Ingrid’s tone or agree with what she says?
As for the rest of what she said, is there some falsehood in it? Is her article really deserving of Tim’s rebuke? And by what standard is Tim judging her?
If what Ingrid is saying is true then why is practically everyone here concerned about rebuking Ingrid instead of waking up to where Rob Bell could be leading people?
Do you see unbelievers as Ingrid’s target audience? I don’t. It’s amazing to me how many subjects come up over at SLICE, CRN, or here that I automatically tie in someone I know personally with the teacher/event being discussed. And I know lots of folks who really love their children and God who are misled by all kinds of things. I wouldn’t know how to compare the number of men/women misled – but I do know that a lot of women don’t think about issues; they just follow. I also know that LOTS, lots of kids including college “kids” are becoming spiritually confused. I know that anything Emergent is really big with a lot of people that age.
Some people need other people to warn them. Not to “tell them what’s right and wrong” but to place information out there so that people will consider thinking before jumping into the latest spiritual fad. We are responsible for helping each other. Satan’s deception is large.
Brutus,
I knew a Jewish lady whom a lot of folks cared about not just because she wasn’t a believer but because she was a very unhappy lady. I’m almost confident had never been to a church service.
Finally one day she decided to go. Guess where she went? To a Benny Hinn service. In the local Baptist church.
Maybe if someone had been proactive about speaking out against his coming (and there were people that left the church over his coming) this lady never would have had the opportunity to go to what was an extremely confusing performance.
Amy, how can you not see the double standard in your own mind? Ingrid launches a nasty, slanderous, and condescending attack on Rob Bell and you can’t bring yourself to be anything but uncertain about whether or not it was over the line. But when it comes to condemning us, well, that’s no problem for you at all. Despite the fact that we’ve often called out each other, and have twice called for a general softening of the tone. We even switched the terminology from “watchdoggie” to “ODM” when watchdoggie was deemed to be too inflammatory.
Seriously Amy, pull the gigantic plank out of your own eye first.
evan,
yep. i have 7 christian channels on my satellite and i watch zero. seen one seen them all. directv added a new one today. i checked it out……….first person on…..scam artist richard roberts.
now if they had a liberal christian channel
one thing i am very proud of………….i have never sent one cent to a tv ministry. it would be a happy day if every christian station went the air.
If lying, slander and misrepresentation of one Christian by another isn’t deserving of rebuke, what is?
Keith,
Every writer here has been called out at various times for their tone, usually by other writers. At some point it’d be nice if the ODMs would do the same to each other.
i would make two exceptions. i need the following to remain for my entertainment purposes:
1. Jack and especially Rexella van Impe.
2. Joyce Meyers and her heavenly cankles.
amy,
i am certain there are a few people like you suggest. but the response far outweighs the threat. if ingrid spent her time addressing the real issues that face the world today she would have a bit of street cred with me. all i see her doing is preaching to the choir. same sermon, ten thousand blog titles. it is useless. nothing is accomplished (besides giving us something to talk about here)
jack and rexella had their ministry 20 miles away from where i went to college. lots of students worked for them. the walking bible. i attended several of his crusades in the early 1970’s
they are funny. but in a way i feel sad for them. in the 80’s impe wrote a book titled heart disease in christ’s body. it was a wonderful pointed expose of baptist fundamentalism.
his predictions have been discredited over the years, so much so, he probably should be stoned to death. the ten toes of daniel have belonged to so many different people i am uncertain as to who they belong to now.
I know some young Christians who have read some of the utter slander, falsehood and bile spewed out from Silva’s and Ingrid’s sites – both against Christians and against fictitious animated vegetables drawn by Christians. However, rather than suggesting that the ODM’s and their ilk are part of the the great falling away and tribulation, we’ve tried to correct the record and firmly reject the methods and general content of these fruit-devoid (Galatians 5:22-23) ministries, and to defend the Christians being slandered by the ODM’s in return for thirty pieces of silver…
she hates the Veggie Tales?
what.
ever.
she should love them. neither she nor the Veggie Tales bear much fruit because she’s hateful and they’re vegetables.
har har.
I said:
Amy, what that means is why would God say preach the gospel to every creature when He knows some are not His will to be saved? It seems like salt in the wounds, and even though some people believe that theology it seems incongruous for Ingrid to say she confronts deception because she loves souls. Remember, she only loves the elect souls because God hates the sinner!
And if God’s love is defined as not even extending an offer of redemption for MOST, than His love doesn’t even equal an earthly mother’s love who would give her own life for all of her children, even her most rebellious child. I will contend always, that believing that most of the world are not elect because God wanted it that way affects the way you speak, act, and pray because you are free from being any kind of eternal stumbling block.
It can sometimes breed many unattractive attitudes.
haha, now Ingrid’s being hateful toward Hannah Montana for all the wrong reasons.
the correct reason, of course, is that she’s obnoxious.
but instead she’s saying that Hannah Montana actually hates Jesus because she dances or something, and that the lyrics to her song are evil. of course (and i cannot STAND Hannah Montana, so i don’t know why i know this) the song in question is actually sung by the Hannah Montana character about how she has the “best of both worlds” in being a regular high school kid, but also a secret rock star.
this is like when Janice Crouse or Beverly “Peaches” LaHaye (indistinguishable from each other) berated Celine Dion for sharing intimate details of her sex life in “I Drove All Night,” even though it’s a frickin’ Cyndi Lauper cover.
these people don’t even know what they’re complaining about 99% of the time, do they?
Oh yeah, that lame criticism of Hannah Montana being recycled, yet again.
If I recall correctly from a parent of one of her fans the song is about having the best of the world of a pop star and of being a private citizen. If the ODMs can’t properly exegete something as simple as a pop song, you’ve got to start wondering about their scriptural interpretation as well.
Also, has anyone else noticed the amount of recycling going on? That Rob Bell piece has been presented in various forms several times, this is the second time we’ve seen that specific complaint about Hannah Montana, and CRN.com has recycled a piece from purposedrivel from 2005. I know they’ve only got a few topics to complain about but at some point its ridiculous.
Tim, it’s hard to keep an imaginary “threat” going if you don’t recycle news.
Otherwise, people might begin to realize exactly out of which orifice you speak.
This is from a previous Ingrid post about her own childhood as compared to the little girls of today:
What is Ingrid saying? That because her childhood was decent she can call the unsaved little girls “painted little girls of Sodom”? If I recall correctly Ingrid made some big mistakes as she grew older and she wasn’t one of the “painted little girls of Sodom”. Many other unsavory remarks are within this post from the past.
See Amy, calling little unsaved girls these names is not what I call “loving souls” and it shows a elitist disregard for the grace of God in her own life.
it also is not Ingrid’s place remarking upon the salvation status of girls she doesn’t know waiting in line to see Hannah Montana.
it’s really not Ingrid’s place to comment on society, since she seems to enter it so rarely.
that said, Anne of Green Gables dyed her green, which totally makes her a Painted Whore Of Sodom.
*grin*
*her hair
i like this line re: the effects of the Spice Girls.
see, if you play “Wannabe” backwards, you hear Victoria Beckham ordering girls to have prom night dumpster babies.
good ear, Ingrid. good ear.
I’m not wanting to drag this out, but just want to say that if you really think that what she’s said is lying slander and misrepresentation then I suggest you extend your ministry to rebuking many other folks who are saying the same things about Rob Bell.
Really? That’s your response? We shouldn’t criticize one of the most vocal critics of Bell because we’re not criticizing every single blog with 4 readers out there?
Are you going to apply the same measurement to ODMs? That they shouldn’t be criticizing anyone because they’re not going after the five billion authors who sell two books, or the pastors at churches of 20 people, or the equally as obscure blogs that are saying teh same thing?
I’m not Presbyterian but I’ve spent many years in Presbyterian churches just because there are things about them that I really like. And I would say that the attitude that you portray is not the attitude of anyone I have ever met.
And I doubt that it is hers. But, why don’t you ask her?
Maybe we could ask her to do an interview for the podcast?
While I would (a) not categorize this website as a “ministry”, per se, (which often assumes 501(c), etc.); and (b) would dispute “many” as a comparative:
Would you include this, this, this, this, this and this as rebukes that extend beyond Ingrid?
Amy,
I have read things by Ingrid with which I agreed – and still cringed at her attitude and condescension to fellow believers.
Neil
neil,
you have summed it up well.
if the odm’s would take a different tack then they would get a fairer hearing from those who disagree with them.
things like…….love, respect, honor.
over the years i ahve been able to have good, open discussions with people who biterly oppose what i believe.
unfortunately, i most remember the discussions were my head was handed to be in a basket, or my a** has teeth marks.
years ago……….i started a youth group fellowship of fifteen churches. during this time i became a calvinist. some friends attacked me. other friends tired to understand where i was coming from. i vividly remember a meeting of the youth fellowship where one of our stormy members stood up and shouted at me “i suppose you are the keeper of the book of life now!” he then stomped his feet and left. i was left speechless (tall order) then i got mad. (not a tall order) sadly this is how i feel with any attempt to engage the odm’s. shouted at……..as they walk away.
the key to me is respect.
sorry for the sp errors. i need to stop typing for the day.
one of the typos was magically Freudian, though:
i do believe many people do “tire” of “trying” to understand why friends let friends become Calvinists.
*grin*