Like Ingrid, I’m not a HM fan, all be it for different reasons. I’m not a fan of “pop” music in general.

Also, like Ingrid, I dislike celebrities throwing out phrases like “I do it all for Jesus”. It seems like a cliche and not very thought out or meaningful.

So I watched the video Ingrid posted and I was a little disappointed. I was kind of hoping it would be worldly. However, there is no crotch grabbing, no dirty dancing, no nothing. It is some girl jumping around to music and not in a provocative outfit or in a provocative style. You can see for yourself the “worldliness”:

YouTube Preview Image

As I read Ingrid’s article, I wondered what exactly her definition of worldliness is? For instance, I have had to work late for the past two weeks because we have a big project due. My non-believer boss has publicly thanked me. Is that worldly, to be recognized by a non believer for hard work?

What if I got up at the next company meeting and gave a big speech in front of thousands of fellow employees and I got a standing ovation? Is that worldly?

What if I was actually skilled enough at a sport, say baseball. Two out, bottom of the ninth, bases loaded. I hit the home run and thousands cheer me. Is that worldly?

Am I missing something here?

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67 Comments(+Add)

1   RayJr    
March 27th, 2008 at 6:32 am

Perhaps Ingrid would better appreciate Miss Montana if she wore Victorian garb.

Or maybe a burqa.

2   Rick Frueh
March 27th, 2008 at 7:17 am

I would personally make the observation that when young girls are invited into that lifestyle, which I would call worldy, that it has proven to be a danger to any professing believer and their faith. Much money and idolization is unhealthy.

What I disagree with Ingrid is when she criticizes the lost in uncompassionate terms (painted girls of Sodom) and then covers herself with saying she grieves. Love covers a multitude of sins, and when we truly care for the lost we will not see their sin we will see their need. I don’t believe that when Jesus shed His blood on Golgotha for those little girls (if you believe that) that he saw them as “painted girls of Sodom”.

He saw them through deep and compassionate eyes of love, and despising the shame He endured a great contradiction of sinners against Himself for us and them. And just to be clear, the most moral, conservative, and religious person in the world is no better than those “painted girls of Sodom” in God’s eyes without Christ, and neither were we.

And Jesus said, “Suffer the little painted girls of Sodom to come to Me and forbid them not”. That, my friends, is authentic Christianity.

3   RayJr    
March 27th, 2008 at 7:26 am

In her article, Ingrid claims Miley “has never been taught the basics of the Gospel…”. Really? Never? I wonder how it is that Ingrid knows this. Does she know the Cyruses personally? Is she assuming that if Miley had been taught the basics of the gospel, she would immediately recognize herself as a “painted girl of Sodom”, give up her music career, stay home and cook dinner for her husband?

Such presumption.

4   Rick Frueh
March 27th, 2008 at 7:40 am

Ray – that is another area in which I disagree with Ingrid and others, the salvation omniscience. That means they can make unequivocal proclamations about people’s salvation. And true to form there is no call for prayer for this girl. I have found it a challenge to speak correction and pray for someone, say MacLaren.

No on can accuse and interceed simultaneously. So how do I know when I’ve crossed the line? When I feel puffed up and when I do not feel like praying for the person with which I disagree. It is certainly a journey and not a destination.

5   Phil Miller
March 27th, 2008 at 7:45 am

Let’s get one thing straight here: we can’t indict all pop music based on the Cyrus Spawn. A lot of pop music actually is thought-provoking, and has some artistic value. The Beatles, U2, REM, etc. – they would all be pop. Rock is a sub-genre of pop, not the other way around. Just a pet peeve of mine.

By the way, “painted girls of Sodom” would be a good name for a female punk band…

6   Rick Frueh
March 27th, 2008 at 7:49 am

Phil – on the other end of the spectrum, hoiw about the

“Unpainted Girls of the Sanhedrin”

7   Evan Hurst    
March 27th, 2008 at 8:09 am

that’s what i was thinking! Painted Girls of Sodom! i’ll start the marketing campaign tout suite.

also, Ingrid is making assumptions based on song lyrics sung by the Hannah Montana character that have nothing to do with spiritual vs. worldly, but rather are about regular teenager vs. secret rockstar.

i always add the disclaimer that i don’t know how i know that, because i can’t stand Miley Minnesota.

8   nator
March 27th, 2008 at 8:28 am

Even though I have never met him myself, I have met the pastor (a few times) who meets with Billy Ray when he is back in Nashville. He is a Christian, and a strong one I hear.

9   Tim Reed, Owosso MI
March 27th, 2008 at 8:33 am

Pure silliness, and hyperbole.

10   iggy
March 27th, 2008 at 8:50 am

You see this is the sort of thing that really gets me.

1. Does Ingrid look at her own popularity from her radio listener-ship or blog readership stats?
2. Does Ingrid schedule timely and current interviews on topics that might keep her listeners or readers on “worldly” events? (which makes me wonder where her daily focus is?
3. If the standard they use on so many were used on “secular” jobs, I wonder why their churches are empty, or why anyone one that does go there has a secular job?

I just see that they place a “worldly” standard of holiness on others and do not even come close themselves, (Be them a mother or not!) Just because one does some “good” works does not negate wrong things. We believe in Grace not Karma or good works as someone was suggesting in another thread.

So for me this is another example of Ingrid playing out Romans 2 and judging someone else and not even seeing that she is exchanging her own holiness for Jesus’. The only thing I can think of as to why ODM’s in general cannot see this sort of thing clearly is that they are “blinded” by pride (God resists the proud).


11   Matt
March 27th, 2008 at 8:53 am

We can get into the semantics of popular culture terminology, but I was using the term “pop”music as a reference to a style within popular music. “Pop” music to me are boy bands, Britney, etc. Music that’s overly radio friendly, sugary in style, and aimed at teeny boppers. If you go to iTunes, you can choose “Pop” as a style.

I think Popular Music is the general term and the Beatles would be in the rock category. Nirvana I’d put in the alternative category. Pantera I’d put in the metal category. Hannah Montana I’d put in the Pop category.

12   iggy
March 27th, 2008 at 8:58 am

Hannah Montana I’d put in the Pop category.

I would put it in the Disney category…


13   Evan Hurst    
March 27th, 2008 at 9:02 am

I would put it in the “i feel soooooo sorry for today’s kids” category.

i came of age with Nirvana and the accompanying movement, and i was exposed to the great music of the 70’s, 80’s, etc…

today’s kids have no culture to breathe in…it’s all mass-marketing drivel.

14   Phil Miller
March 27th, 2008 at 9:11 am

Well, I was somewhat joking, although I think “pop” is a much-maligned word. I think pop music is an ever-changing genre. Back in the 40’s, Glenn Miller and Frank Sinatra could be considered pop. Pop music, to me, has always taken elements of other styles such as classical, jazz, folk, gospel, etc. to make something that is more accessible to the masses.

I would say that Ms. Montana, Britney and the like are bubble-gum pop, and it’s its own little sub-genre within pop. And it sucks, for the most part.

15   Evan Hurst    
March 27th, 2008 at 9:13 am

And it sucks, for the most part.


it seems the word “pop” these days has become, at least from a music-store-shelving perspective, a catch-all for anything you can’t automatically classify anywhere else.

it’s funny to me that Britney, Nirvana, REM, and Bjork are all in the same section of the store, but whatever.

16   Ian
March 27th, 2008 at 9:19 am

I watched this from Ingrid’s site (although with the sound turned down – it was just terrible). I was quite suprised at the tameness of it to be honest!

That said, popular culture obsessed with fame, money and being a pop star just sucks anway.

17   Phil Miller
March 27th, 2008 at 9:19 am

it’s funny to me that Britney, Nirvana, REM, and Bjork are all in the same section of the store, but whatever.

Well, that’s kind of my point. The vast majority of music purchased these days, I would consider ‘pop’. We just classify as alternative, modern rock or whatever to make ourselves feel better and more enlightened.

Why can’t everyone be like me? I only listen to music recorded by Tibetan monks using solar-powered, organic, bio-degradable, analog tape. The CD’s are actually formed by yak dung, and totally decompose within a year. It’s the only pure artform left…

18   Evan Hurst    
March 27th, 2008 at 9:27 am

Why can’t everyone be like me? I only listen to music recorded by Tibetan monks using solar-powered, organic, bio-degradable, analog tape.

we have not all reached that point of “cool” yet, sadly.

maybe one day, maybe one day.

this morning i’m listening to Ben Folds and waiting for the rain to start…

19   dave
March 27th, 2008 at 9:33 am

I would personally make the observation that when young girls are invited into that lifestyle, which I would call worldy, that it has proven to be a danger to any professing believer and their faith.

Proven? Seriously? I would like to see that research.

20   Kevin I    
March 27th, 2008 at 9:36 am

It’s funny, the more I read the more I think Ingrid means “things I don’t like” when she says wordliness.

Doesn’t seem to be anything overly worldly about what is going on in the video as far as I can tell. Maybey it’s because I’m not xenophobic when it comes to teenage culture.

But this happens when people don’t have a neutral category. If it doesn’t seem to be explicitly Christian, when you don’t have a neutral, it automatically slips to fleshy, wordly or sinful. I’d like her to specifically cite the “disobediant conduct” last I checked Hannah Monatan wasn’t a pagan priestess, or a pusher of any anti-Biblical ideas…

It seems that worldliness, especially in the verses Ingrid quotes, isn’t just about music, movies and tv like so many talking heads want to make it, but about larger attitudes and outlooks that so many who shout “worldly” deal with, pride, lust, favortism, greed etc. As one who used to just file worldly with the type of music or movies I didn’t take in anyways, I’ve been convicted latley of the depth of the term and how persisitant it is in my own life (through reading James over and over latley) and the life of the church in general.

I also like her comment about “Best of both worlds” continuing her fine tradition of just exegeting titles without checking out their content (The gods aren’t angry etc.)

21   Kevin I    
March 27th, 2008 at 9:37 am


you’re just not looking hard enough!

22   Chris L
March 27th, 2008 at 9:39 am

I still remember the day that the preppy kids “discovered” U2 (2-3 years after I had been listening to them) back when I was in high school. It was as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror. Then were suddenly silenced…

23   Rick Frueh
March 27th, 2008 at 9:44 am

“I would personally make the observation that when young girls are invited into that lifestyle, which I would call worldy, that it has proven to be a danger to any professing believer and their faith.”

Dave, did you miss the word “personally”? Or the phrase “I would call”? I have seen many professing Christians become compromised due to what I believe is an unhealthy atmosphere (Amy Grant, B.J. Thomas, and others) Everyone has their worldy list and I live in America, I am allowed to have mine. :)

24   nc    
March 27th, 2008 at 10:18 am

I suppose HM would be ok if she was unknown and obscure, “toured” small churches in the Midwest, and wore handmade gingham jumpers while singing covers of The Cathedral’s southern gospel songs. Oh, yeah, I almost forgot: And she’d have to plug VCY America.

25   Evan Hurst    
March 27th, 2008 at 10:20 am

handmade gingham jumpers

haha definitely, but make sure the handmade gingham jumpers adequately obscure the fact that she is, in fact, a woman. in fact, a handmade gingham burqa would probably be the best option, as it would be cornfed, American, and most of all, modest.

26   iggy
March 27th, 2008 at 10:34 am

Has anyone really even realized that Hannah Montana is a character and this is not even her real name?

In fact it is not even “Miley”

Miley Cyrus’s real name is Destiny Hope Cyrus… she is an actor/singer who plays a character named Hannah Montana… someone should alert Ingrid in all this as it is like attacking Kirk Cameron for being stupid in that sit com he was in way bakc when… or that he is not Mike Seaver… and condominium him for having been on teenbeat or tiger or 16 magazine as a pin up!

Sheeesh I wonder if reality is in Ingrid’s vocabulary…?

Isn’t there a medical condition for people who can’t tell reality for fiction?


27   Rick Frueh
March 27th, 2008 at 10:41 am

Iggy – a little known fact is that “John Calvin” wasn’t his real name either. His birth name was “Elton John Calvin” but he dropped the Elton for personal reasons.

28   Evan Hurst    
March 27th, 2008 at 10:43 am

Iggy, just so we’re completely up to date, Destiny Hope Cyrus just recently legally changed her name to Miley Ray Cyrus.

apparently “Destiny” is too hick for even her.

29   Tim Reed, Owosso MI
March 27th, 2008 at 10:45 am

Did Iggy just use “condominium” as a verb?

30   iggy
March 27th, 2008 at 10:46 am

LOL! Spell check attacked me again…

I have been revealed for the poor speller I am!

woe is me!


31   Evan Hurst    
March 27th, 2008 at 10:48 am

what’s scarier is that i didn’t even notice that…

i’m too accustomed to reading posts for what i think people are “trying to say,” and don’t notice verbs like “condominium.”

32   iggy
March 27th, 2008 at 10:51 am

Iggy, just so we’re completely up to date, Destiny Hope Cyrus just recently legally changed her name to Miley Ray Cyrus.

Well then, so much for the internet having the latest and most up to date info! LOL!


33   Evan Hurst    
March 27th, 2008 at 10:54 am

yet again, though, i must state that i don’t know WHY this information has seeped into my brain.

probably something i saw on a news page subliminally before i clicked on a real article.

34   Phil Miller
March 27th, 2008 at 10:56 am

Wow, I missed that too. Is “condominiuming” another way of saying “shacking up”, or “living together”? If so,that makes the statement all the more interesting…

35   Evan Hurst    
March 27th, 2008 at 10:59 am

i give kudos to Kirk Cameron for being able to parlay his lack of acting talent into an arena that wouldn’t notice.

36   RayJr    
March 27th, 2008 at 11:02 am

Excuse me for a second while I townhouse my dog.

37   Adam    
March 27th, 2008 at 11:13 am

just for the record here, i’m a sailor, so “painted girls of sodom” really doesn’t strike me as bad…i’ve been out at sea for the last five months – back off.

oh and evan?

Iggy, just so we’re completely up to date, Destiny Hope Cyrus just recently legally changed her name to Miley Ray Cyrus.

dude…come on.

38   Adam    
March 27th, 2008 at 11:16 am

probably something i saw on a news page subliminally before i clicked on a real article.

whatever loser. i am SO telling the kids in school that you’re adopted.

39   Evan Hurst    
March 27th, 2008 at 11:21 am


you just wish you could beat me in Hannah Montana trivia.

i think it would be funny if Hannah Montana turned 18 and all of a sudden went Super Painted Whore on everybody, like Britney Spears.

40   RayJr    
March 27th, 2008 at 11:21 am

whatever loser. i am SO telling the kids in school that you’re adopted.

As the father of a adopted daughter, I don’t see how this is funny or relevant.

41   Evan Hurst    
March 27th, 2008 at 11:24 am


we’re brothers.

he’s making a “disassociating myself from you” joke because i seem too aware of Hannah Montana’s doings…

42   Evan Hurst    
March 27th, 2008 at 11:38 am

whatever loser. i am SO telling the kids in school that you’re adopted.

whatever…your real father is the mailman.

sorry to tell you here, in public.

his name is Carl.

43   RayJr    
March 27th, 2008 at 11:45 am

The implication, Evan, is that adopted children are somehow less a part of one’s family than biological children.

I’m not a PC freak but it’s time to retire that old retort.

44   Evan Hurst    
March 27th, 2008 at 11:47 am

sorry if it bothered you.

i communicate with him approximately 82 times a day. he wasn’t implying anything that deep.

45   Evan Hurst    
March 27th, 2008 at 11:49 am

i mean, i get what you’re saying, esp. considering the fact that if i ever decide i want children, i’ll be adopting myself…

46   RayJr    
March 27th, 2008 at 12:10 pm

i mean, i get what you’re saying, esp. considering the fact that if i ever decide i want children, i’ll be adopting myself…

It’s a great way to create a family. Trust me.

47   mandy    
March 27th, 2008 at 12:52 pm

I always tell my siblings I think they’re adopted, and they do as well. It may not be PC, but it’s a sibling thing.
I sadly also knew that Miley just changed her name legally. So sad that I have this knowledge.
From the way Ingrid talked about this video, I was expecting strippers.

48   Rick Frueh
March 27th, 2008 at 1:00 pm

We are ALL adopted sons of God by faith!

49   kenn    
March 27th, 2008 at 1:17 pm

Any real student of Ingridology can see the pattern here, and just like Kevin I said, “worldiness” is just Ingrid’s way of saying “things that I don’t like”. Sometimes I look at Slice, and I can’t tell the difference between Ingrid’s serious articles from the satirical websites like and Maybe Ingrid’s been pulling our legs all this time! Nobody can possibly be that neurotic and fearful of simple pop culture.

As funny as her rants against Miley Cyrus are, its still tough to top her rant against the 8 year old that she observed “flouncing” in her bathing suit by the side of a pool. Still far and away the best Ingridism to date.

Maybe peace and contentment will someday come to Ingrid when all females are issued gingham jumpers that they’ll wear all their lives.

Or maybe the idea of gingham burqas are even more modest, but only if the gingham is very low-key. We can’t have any flashy gingham flouncing around here.

50   Evan Hurst    
March 27th, 2008 at 1:23 pm

even worse….be-dazzled gingham burqas…

because be-dazzling is for whores.

51   Adam    
March 27th, 2008 at 7:38 pm

actually, has anyone read or seen stephen king’s The Mist? ingrid sounds a lot like the overzealous character in the supermarket that convinces the scared townspeople she’s a mouthpiece for god and that the logical thing to do would be to offer up a child for a sacrifice. sorry, just watched it.

oh and ray, my apologies. as evan said, we’re brothers and i meant no harm.

52   Chris L
March 27th, 2008 at 8:26 pm

Mrs Carmody was the name of the character (at least in the short story). I almost used that reference this morning (but decided it was too obscure)…


53   Evan Hurst    
March 27th, 2008 at 8:30 pm

ha, that’s funny…

he was e-mailing me last night asking me if i had seen it.

54   Kevin I    
March 28th, 2008 at 9:26 am

I too just watch the Mist and thought the same thing of Mrs. Carmody’s approach to things as many ODM’s…

55   Neil    
March 28th, 2008 at 9:48 am

What I found disturbing was her proclamation that “This poor girl, raised in a celebrity world, has never been taught the basics of the Gospel, or that there is a difference between flesh and spirit, between the values of the world and the values of a Christian.”

What condescension, what arrogance! How does Ingrid know what she has been taught. What right does Ingrid have to portray sympathy (e.g. “Poor girl”).

How disingenuous to first imply sympathy then sped the rest of the post ripping and shredding.

I agree; in Ingridland “worldliness” is just code for “Things I don’t like.”

56   iggy
March 28th, 2008 at 10:07 am

I just find this rather humorous.

How much different does Ingrid sound than this “worldly” website?

From the comments:

Miley’s mom (Tish) sure slept around. Unmarried and pregnant 3 times by 3 different men is still considered slutty by today’s low standards. Let’s hope the apple falls FAR from that tree!

Yep, we should not imitate the world… I wonder if that commentor reads Slice?


57   iggy
March 28th, 2008 at 10:13 am

The saddest thing to me is that Ingrid could make her points… which the main ones are valid, without attacking Hannah…

In fact I think it would have been more productive and sound less hateful.

Most often ODM’s seem to miss that though they may have valid points, their words do not sound loving.

Now, I know they will point to some passage in the OT or Jesus calling the Pharisees vipers or whatever… yet, they are out of balance. Paul was firm yet gentle with those he wrote to… Jesus was putting the religious leaders in their place… but I cannot think of one verse in which He attacks a “sinner” as ODM’s attack people.


58   Evan Hurst    
March 28th, 2008 at 11:37 am

but, Iggy these ODM’s ARE the modern-day Pharisees.

moan and complain about rules violations? check.

annoy Jesus? check.

annoy the general population? check.

59   iggy
March 28th, 2008 at 11:47 am

Chris L (if I recall correctly) did a great article here on Pharisees. I thought I knew all the types but he came up with a few more…

Maybe he might re-post it?


60   nc    
March 28th, 2008 at 1:15 pm

Two more things:
RE: Jesus Christ himself stated that the world will hate those who follow Him, not applaud them. The world loves Hannah Montana. She is a product of the world’s system and idolatrous thinking.

That says a lot. The incidence of the world hating you and Jesus’ comforting words to understand it have now been turned into the criterion for legitimate faith.

The light just went on for me. These people want to be awful so they can feel good about their standing before God.

RE: One of Miley Cyrus’ hit songs is “Best of Both Worlds”. There is no such thing in the Christian life.

Talk about outstanding research!!!
Here’s the lyrics:
It’s a song that probably is talking about how in the TV show storyline.

In the show HM is the alter-ego for Miley’s character.
Her friends dont’ know she’s really the big star HM, and it moves the TV story line along with the tension of trying to keep her friends in the dark about her career. (She puts on the wig and gets up and does her shows.)

Ya know, like how Lois doesn’t know that Clark is really Superman?

For all the time spent looking at (and for) evil to warn us about…gimme a break.

Talk about self-righteous spiritualizing.


61   Chris L
March 28th, 2008 at 1:56 pm

Igs, the pharisee post (on the seven types of pharisee) is right here.

62   Rick Frueh
March 28th, 2008 at 2:11 pm

Iggy – here is an excerpt from a comment on that site:

“…while he was married to her he was havin an afear!!!!!”

Spellcheck provided by the movie “Deliverance”!

63   iggy
March 28th, 2008 at 2:57 pm


Show a little more Grace as these are country music people…. and being that I am from Montana here, you should talk a little slower for me also ok?

; )


64   Rick Frueh
March 28th, 2008 at 3:06 pm

Ig – When the Kentucky churches have dinner on the grounds it’s literal! I just thought it comical that this person was piling on Cyrus and was adamant that he was havin a afear!

65   Rick Frueh
March 28th, 2008 at 3:17 pm

The commenter had stacked out the moral high ground but had sadly sipped into the literary lowlands. Can you say irony?? What choo talkin’ ’bout Willis??

66   anonymousjane
March 28th, 2008 at 5:14 pm

Ingrid just keeps sounding more and more like the Church Lady from SNL.

67   Evan Hurst    
March 28th, 2008 at 6:49 pm

minus the sense of humor.

and, probably, the fashion sense…