So, here’s the Acts 17:16-32 (NIV):
16While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols. 17So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there. 18A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to dispute with him. Some of them asked, “What is this babbler trying to say?” Others remarked, “He seems to be advocating foreign gods.” They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection. 19Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, “May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? 20You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we want to know what they mean.” 21(All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.)
22Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you.
24″The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28′For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’
29″Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man’s design and skill. 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”
32When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered, but others said, “We want to hear you again on this subject.” 33At that, Paul left the Council. 34A few men became followers of Paul and believed. Among them was Dionysius, a member of the Areopagus, also a woman named Damaris, and a number of others.
So, here’s what I noticed. While it says in verse 17 that Paul talked about Jesus and the Resurrection, in the text of the sermon, Paul never mentions Jesus. He also doesn’t mention sin, law, hell, eternal fire or damnation (to be fair, he uses the term “repent” and “judge”) .
Was Paul going soft on the Athenians? Was he contextualizing? If the ODMs were blogging back then, would they have a field day on Paul’s sermon, like they do whenever Driscoll, Bell, or Warren speak?
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
46 Comments(+Add)
Clearly Paul was a man-loving, semi-pelagian, hollow man of the emerging church.
Or perhaps he had some secret
GnosticODM knowledge that most members of the Council weren’t members of the elect anyway.Matt,
On the few ODM blogs that still allow comments, I have brought this section of Scripture (among other examples) in to a discussion concerning contextualization and criticisms of it. Usually my comments are blocked. Most of the time ignored and instead I am ad hominem attacked.
Basically what you have here is Paul not mentioning Jesus, not mentioning hypostatic union (in fact it can be argued that these people who then believed and followed Paul didn’t even know Jesus was God!!! How dare Paul leave that out?), not mentioning the Trinity, completely taking a dookie on some Calvinistic doctrines with this little dealy “27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him”, didn’t mention hell or the punnishment of God (though it can be argued this is implied), AND he used the greek gods as a point of comparison and uh…relevancy…and uh..context, something that the greeks could latch on to.
Wow, I’ve seen Mclaren be more orthodox in a sermon than that! =)
But it’s okay, Paul was an Apostle…
What Paul did here should serve as an example to all of us that puffed up doctrinal arguments and points don’t save, the Jesus and His Gospel do. Most of us might preach 2+2=4, but Paul showed us there than it can be done 4 = 2+2, or 6-2=4 even.
What a concept.
Joe
Basically..I’m saying…Truth is Truth…regardless of the different ways we explain it.
Something the ODMs hate, I find.
Acts is not a doctrinal book, it is an authoritative narrative that sometimes showcases the feet of clay of the apostles. The narrative you reference also does not claim to be exhaustive or unabridged. In addition, this story takes place within the framework of an embryonic and doctrinally unsophisticated church.
I believe two things are sometimes present today. On one hand the gospel is presented in such cultural context that the essence of redemption is compromised. On the other hand the gospel is presented with such English theological terms that the listener’s understanding is compromised.
The balance is to be true to the truth while still relying heavily upon the ministry of God’s Spirit which can work in any circumstance. I was saved watching Billy Graham after being spiritually affected by a play called “Godspell” which was written by an unsaved Jew.
Thank God His Spirit wasn’t bound to a gospel presentaion that was perfectly clear andor doctrinally unambiguous.
Rick, I agree that Acts is narrative. I actually think that the sermon we have might not have been the word-for-word sermon that Paul preached to the Council. Luke wasn’t live blogging while Paul preached and it probably was abridged.
Rick,
You’ve made the book of Acts little more than a curiosity, less useful than our own general observations about the way the world works.
No Tim, and I realize that Acts provides more than a little support for some of your theology. Acts is an historical account of the early church which is meant to encourage, edify, convict, and give some perspective for the birth of the church. It cannot and must not be used as the foundation for ecclesiastical doctrine.
Many issue in Acts were misrepresented. James says we should “avoid things strangled”. People were healed by Peter’s shadow. Two were struck dead for lying to the Spirit. Many other things happened by the sovereignty of God which are not meant to be implimented by the church.
Unless they are TAUGHT in the epistles and specifically Paul.
Rick,
You dressed it up prettier, but you still agreed with me.
“but you still agreed with me.”
I publicly and formally disavow that characterization of my views. I request any and all bolgs link immediately to my comment before this repuslive attack against my integrity spreads across the bolgosphere.
If this gets out it’ll ruin you!
Clearly you are man loving Pelagian hollow heads of the ecm.
This passage of scripture is always held up as the supreme example of contextualized evangelism. Notwithstanding that compared to the rest of Acts, this effort by Paul was the least successful in bearing fruit.
Whenever they stuck to the Word alone, the result was abundant harvest. Paul using the Greek poets is in no way a tacit endortsement of Greek poetry or the quoting of it as an evangelistic tool.
You are so predictable in that the first two comments out of the gate are insults.
A couple of posts ago everyone hammered pastorboy for allegedly bragging, and then proceeded to judge his efforts as not bearing real fruit. iggy whined about his being hurt by others in church. Waaahhhh!
What a group of hypocritical and unscriptural snivelers.
You are what you claim to critize.
BTW Rick, God is still able to strike dead all the liars and actors in the church today. Food for thought for all of you.
If Acts is just a narrative, then so are the Gospels.
God help all of you, who neither preach no practice the Word of God.
Its rare we get such examples of hypocrisy within a few lines of each other.
I don’t know – thought SBA’s Schadenfreude display after the Arvada shootings earlier this year was an even better example…
Now, this is the same thing we’ve been saying about Rob Bell and Marcus Borg and Ken Wilber. Glad to see you’ve been paying attention!
Wow, shammah, I can almost imagine you praying for that to happen.
I imagine if he struck all the liars and actors down most churches would be pretty empty. Thankfully, I’m not trusting in my righteousness, but God’s grace.
Amen.
Matt, good points in your post. Let me add one more from vs 32:
I find it interesting that these pagans were more open to hearing more about what Paul had to say about his faith than many Christians are.
Good point, Brendt.
Shammah – I continue to believe you are another Iggyism in disguise. Oh that Iggy!
“Least effective” implies that it depended on Paul’s efforts and that he screwed up his sermon here. Is that what you are saying?
“Successful in bearing fruit” implies that we can have success in our ministry if we depend on a method.
Matt B., are you questioning Shammah’s Calvinist credentials?
I am not trusting in your righteousness either.
Oh I get it, you are implying that I am self righteous.
You are funny.
Every comment made after mine is pure rhetoric.
Annanais and Sapphira sinned not because they withheld their money, but because of their pretense to piety.
BTW I am not praying for your demise, but there you go again. The odms judge hearts without knowing them and that is wrong, but you can do so without fear of contradiction.
What did James say about walking away from the mirror and forgetting what you look like?
I am simply pointing out your own pretention, hypocrisy, duplicity, and gross immaturity. If you can do this to Ingrid, Ken, or whomever, then the same right back atcha.
Chris L also brings up my post on Arvada, another falsehood.My post was about New Life and other churches like it who blather on about all the faith they have and then hire mercenaries to protect themselves. Schadenfreude?
LOL!
So the real issue is this;
this blog operates on the false assumption that the odm bloggers think they are superior to those they critique.
I have yet to see anything like that literally written in their blogs. I have never written such a thing either.
So once again you have the ability to discern hearts, but those with whom you disagree have no such ability.
Th real problem is that you actually believe this of yourselves.
May the Lord deliver you of your delusion.
Iggy, please. It’s too obvious!
Shammah-
This is OT but you have Savior Machine’s lyrics on your blog. Savior Machine isn’t exactly ODM kosher. That’s a band that a faux emerging person like myself would listen to.
http://www.myspace.com/saviourmachine
An Ig-ophany?
haha. maybe the difference is:
the average poster here, by disagreeing with the ODMs, has shown him/herself to be quite a bit more adept at actually reading BETWEEN the lines, which bears out both in their interpretations of theology and in their ability to see the arrogance and sense of false unmerited superiority in the writings of Ken, Ingbiscuit, et al.
“the average poster here, by disagreeing with the ODMs, has shown him/herself to be quite a bit more adept at actually reading BETWEEN the lines, which bears out both in their interpretations of theology and in their ability to see the arrogance and sense of false unmerited superiority in the writings of Ken, Ingbiscuit, et al.”
Thanks, Evan. But I must humbly point out that throughout my life I have been able to indentify arrogance from a distance and prevent completely its influence, in truth its presence, from ever penetrating the spiritual insulation that surrounds my entire walk with God. And in that I am very grateful.
That Savior Machine band sounds cool….
FYI to all. That’s the weirdest rock music I’ve ever heard. It’s ridiculously dramatic lol. Everything sounds like that german band “Ramstein”. Except..you know…in English.
THEY SOUND GERMAN!! HERESY!!!! =)~
Joe
But boy are their lyrics good. That’s probably why the Shammah guy approves. But I think they would fail the ODM “looks are more important than hearts” (man looks at the outside) test.
Matt.
I do not think you are too far off the mark with the original comment as here are Ken’s own words….
The Lord would have you know that this generation we are now living in is no time to be “playing†at Christianity. The spirit of this age is one that is quite aggressively hostile to the historic orthodox Christian faith. To the discerning among us it would appear that Christ is beginning to call His remnant to Himself. And…if you are in tune with the Spirit, somehow you will just know this truth.
That last sentence really caught my eye a while back…
Is Ken stating we can “just know truth” as in some weird strange intuitive special gnosis from God?
I guess we will never really know what Ken really believes…
iggy
I love it when Ben Shammah comes by. I really do.
It is quite a show he puts on.
i would just like to point out that i know society is being dumbed down right now, but these two words…
Schadenfreude?
LOL!
Evan – once in a while you cull something out that all of us have missed. Anymore like that and you will officially be a nerd!
oh, i’ve been an official nerd for years now…
I am officially requesting an addition to the glossary. I am describing what someone like Shammah does as a
And the code symbal is the Nike swoosh. He swooshes down, unloads his prophetic word, and swooshes back out.
I will give ben one thing… he don’t get the difference between judging and ONCDEMNING others and judging what and if something another stated is true or not and pointing that out.
At least he admits that what the ODM’s do is wrong.. .in that then this blog has made headway.
iggy
Hmmm… spell check attacks again… I meant CONDEMNING…
I recently confronted the rudeness of one so-called “WATCHMAN” (a real true “discerner”) named Steve Blackwell over at his blog. His answer, I must confess, even threw me aback. We are all in deep trouble. These people are now equating rudeness, mean-spiritedness, and nastiness with……drum roll please…… godliness! (I especially like the part about my god being effeminate
)
__________BEGIN STEVE BLACKWELL RESPONSE
Mr Abanes ask that I “provide the scripture that details where it is acceptable as a Christian to be rude.â€
Need I teach the famed researcher that God’s ministers were often accused of being rude, with harsh speech, and lacked refinement? Why was John accused of having a devil and Paul of madness? Since the religious men who harassed John and Paul knew Scripture they had only one recourse, and that was to attack the preacher. Their stance on the truth caused them to be labeled as divisive and trouble makers, and rude; they had no respect for the Devil and his ways.
If Mr Abanes rightly understood the fear of God he would not only be rude himself on occasions, but expect it from his own ministers. Need I remind him that it was the Lord that destroyed all of humanity in the flood; how rude was that? For a hundred and twenty years Noah preached to these people, in no uncertain terms, that they were dead men walking!
Abanes’ god is an effeminate god of universal love and compromise, always begging, and weak. Are we to be cultured gentlemen when dealing with the error coming out of the Church today.
As I said, it is too late for that now. . . . I will not apologize for being rude to Mr Abanes, but I will say that I am in good company with some of whom I do not deserve to share the stage. These that I speak of were uneducated, ignorant, uncultured, unrefined, course, rough, severe, tough, violent, and rude men, who had a real purpose, and it was not their own. There is a time and a season for all things, even rudeness.
Steve Blackwell @ http://indywatchman.wordpress.com
____________
Well, as the king often said in Amadeus, “There it is.”
Sorry, the above post belongs in the Mr. Rogers NICE thread, I posted it there, so you can delete it here.
“His answer, I must confess, even threw me aback.”
Are you new here? And for your enjoyment, I post a previous comment of mine in which I have a sarcastic poke at those who propose just such a tone.
“Nice†is the clandestine representative of the underlying and clearer word “compromiseâ€. Some of us are way too sophisticated to fall for your pitiful attempts to set false goals for Christian behavior that bring in abominable heresies within the Trojan Horse of “niceâ€.
Make no mistake about it, I will punch directly in the face anyone who comes at me with “nice†thinking that I will buy whatever it is they’re selling. As far as “Christ centered†well, isn’t that obvious that brings with it an entire liberal agenda? We have your number and we refuse to be manipulated by “nice†and “Christ-centeredâ€. In the words of the prophet Pete Townsend, “We’re not gonna take, never have and never willâ€.
Nice…cram it.
Hey Arbanes, this multi-posting is soooo confusing to guys like me. Next time you swoosh in for a comment, make sure you are not smoking what we all know Rick Warren enjoys. Oh yea, the word is out so denying it is futile!
lol – just chaulk it all up to my effeminate god.
The metamorphosis of contextualization.
A small animal walks in fom of a religious group of people.
The emergent says kitty.
The liberal says feline.
The gay church says tomcat
The seeker says tabby
The purpose church says cat.
And the ODM says tiger!
Which is it? None of them.
It’s a dog with a cat costume.
which shows that we need to focus on the needs of the dog, because it obviously has a lot of internalized self-hatred to be dressing as a cat.
Or maybe it’s cruisin’ for cats.
haha. Trojan Horse.
i’m going to teach my dog that this afternoon.
she doesn’t understand the natural enmity she’s supposed to feel for cats. she thinks all creatures are, like, pals.