In a recent post by Ken Silva about Richard Abanes, a supporter of Rick Warren, Ken decides to go after the man’s cd collection. Since Silva put a copyright on the blog, I won’t quote it. But apparently, Abanes listens to Rascal Flatts, Jimmy Wayne, Tim McGraw, and Green Day.
Ken enlightens us by telling us that any true Christian would have received the secret Gnostic knowledge that he has and that secular music is obviously a bad thing for any and all Christians to listen to.
Before I invite Ken to my home to review my cd collection, I thought I should probably review my book collection as well. I have Fox Trot, a comic series, which is obviously of the devil because it references dancing. I have Calvin and Hobbes, which is ok in regards to Calvin, however, Hobbes is right out. I also have some “Learn to Play” guitar book, which I will be throwing out, since I might learn some of that new hip praise and worship music.
In reality, file name of Ken’s article pretty much say it all. It’s “http://www.apprising.org/archives/2005/09/a_pastors_asses.html”.
*Update
Here is a portion of Ken’s thoughts on secular music. According to Chris L, I’m allowed to quote the site:
And here is what the watchful eyes of a pastor would notice in this example of Mr. Abanes’ choices of music. No matter what the reason, by his own admission, Mr. Abanes does not listen to “a lot of Christian music at all.” However, as for “secular music,” he tells us there are “many” artists that he listens to on a “regular basis,” and “almost every day.” The questions that I as a pastor would hope Rick Warren will soon be asking Mr. Abanes in his office are: So, now can you see who is helping to shape much of your world-view? Richard, why would you, as a prominent Christian, even want to listen to so many non-Christian influences “on a regular basis?” And, just what would the more mature Christian possibly find in common with worldly artists? (see–2 Corinthians 6:15)
136 Comments(+Add)
impossible.
this is even dumber than the one about the cross-dressing day during spirit week.
hey, i have a Marilyn Manson CD because his cover of the 80’s classic “Tainted Love” is truly special.
i think it’s funny that Silva would go after him for Rascal Flatts, but then again, it kinda reminds me of the website that declares Dolly Parton to be a tool of Satan.
we’re not dealing with different worldviews here, we’re dealing with stunted development.
Quoting a passage would be a fair use exception to copyright as outlined in copyright statutes.
haha, then i will. this passage is only rendered effectively in the voice of Dana Carvey’s Church Lady character:
that being said, i started working on a really fun piano/vocal solo cover of “Basketcase” yesterday…
it came as if in a vision.
“you should do ‘Basketcase’!!!”
I had never heard of Green Day. (surprise, surprise) So I listened to a snipet on iTunes and within 10 seconds I heard the F word. Sorry guys, I am still so unaware of what is goin on, and glad to be so.
Let me clarify. I listen to classical music, composers like Hans Zimmer (King Arthur), and some other secular music. But not the cursing type except inordinate amounts of Gangsta Rap!
Green Day is to punk as Olive Garden is to authentic Italian cuisine.
No real punk fan would be caught dead listening to Green Day.
Westley: “Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.”
Vizzini: “Wait ’til I get going!”
Green Day was punk. Then they got old.
1039/Smoothed Out Slappy Hours and Kerplunk were both in the same vein (though modernized) as their predecessors, and Dookie probably was too. After that (and especially their recent stuff) their music became far more than enthusiasm and guitars (the two main ingredients fo punk)
People who say that Christians shouldn’t listen to secular music usually mean secular popular music. If I asked any of them if it’s ok if I listened to Wagner, not one would protest. Using their logic, though, wouldn’t listening to Wagner turn me into a Nazi?
rofl — I just don’t know where to begin.
Obviously, you should start by destroying your entire CD collection, and pick up some Ingrid approved music. Hopefully some that’s written by dead white males who never did, nor never inspired anyone to shake his or her fanny.
Matt – I listen to secular music, much more timid than would others. But I do not consider itedifying to listen to groups or soloists that use profanity especially when it begins with an f. I guess I would not feel comfortable kickin’ back with Jesus and listening to some tunes using that language, but that’s just me.
I do not understand why that would enter into the conversation that Ken was referring to, but it is an issue on another level. (he says as he returns to his medieval cave.)
Rick – actually, I almost listen to Christian music exclusively myself. Most of it is music by Christians, as opposed to CCM.
And, in church, I prefer the old hymns. I guess I have that in common with Ingrid.
I don’t think think the music one listens to should be a litmus test as to whether you are saved or not. If that were the case, the fundamentalist who listened to Wagner would actually be an unsaved Nazi.
Matt – Ken was not suggesting Richard wasn’t saved, but he was making an observation about which I agree. And the Nazi card is now played in the music genre. I now must play the Hugh Hefner card!
I’m actually big on filtering what comes in. I’m not legalistic about it, and what Silva did is over the top and wrong. But I don’t think people are being honest with themselves or others to say that media (especially of the music and video variety) does not influence them. Media is powerful. Don’t avoid it like the plague, but be aware of it, develop intellectual filters, and if you find something that causes you problems, stay away from it.
The only exception I make is the album “Ozzy Osborne Sings Your Favorite Christmas Carols”. That is a classic!
Well, since neither Ken nor I have gone through Richard’s music collection and it seems that Green Day seems to be causing the most controversy, there are a multitude of questions, all of which are actually between Richard and God.
For me, if something causes me to stumble, I won’t listen to it. It’s a personal decision.
Another question would be, what is the artist actually saying? For instance, at first glance, “Young Lust” by Pink Floyd appears to encourage hedonism. However, in context of the movie “The Wall”, that’s the exact opposite message of the song.
There are other questions to ask.
Christian – what about this kind of music?
although American Idiot or whatever it’s called was brilliant…
they grew up!
> Green Day
I am a musician. Chord structures, melody turns, rhythms, flips in bridges, musical breaks, song composition — they all fascinate me from an artistic technical angel. Hence, a great deal of my listening is with a musicians ear of study, learning, understanding, and analysis. There are many different forms of music, each with a historical development and ongoing evolution that is worthy of continued studied.
I do not look to green Day for my spirituality or as a guide of my moral compass. It’s music. That’s all. Their music represents an artistic expression of a certain group of people of a certain generation. And, if Christians would not be so terrified of such people, then they might actually understand them a bit better. And by understanding their hearts and minds a bit better, they might be able to minister to them in a way that gets through to them and brings them into a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.
Not exactly heretical and demonic, but it’s the best I could do. Now, I am off to get another 666 tattoo beneath my hairline. ROFL.
but never listen to music written by a woman, because that means she was probably wearing shoes at the time, not pregnant, and before you know it, she’ll be play-acting like Goody Brewster and the like.
Old punks become country singers
Any of you guys heard of 16 horsepower and David solo band Wovenhand? Christian guy but unfortunately Christian stores refused to sell his cds (he cussed once)..
Their from Denver, seen them 5 x amazing!! Think Nick Cave mixed with Gun Club and Violent Femmes (Gordon Gano top guy, a Christian by all accounts,he plays violin on 16hp first cd
Hes kind of intense guy lyrically
The world will bow
The knees will be broken for those who don’t know how
Black Soul Choir
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO9My5_H6dg
Sorry for the plug, just hoped i might turn someone on to them
Secret South CD is a great start
I quit listening to “Christian music” after the fifth Sunday of our worship leader dragging us through a horribly executed version of “I Can Only Imagine.” That is NOT a song to be sung by the entire congregation!
Keith – agreed. That song works as a solo, but it is brutal on the vocal chords if you’re not in the right range…
You could always have this guy as your worship leader though.
What a voice he had huh Chris lolllll, Whatttt moves :-p
i love love love Nick Cave.
That WAS our worship leader!!! In fact, I think we sang THAT song too! (Communion meditation)
I think he’s doing his hair a little different now.
There some great Christian bands out there Keith, music on par with anything secular..
Most of the good Christian bands are playing in the mainstream though…Pedro the lion,Soul Junk,Sufjan Stevens,Danielson Famile,Tombstone Trailorpark also Damien Jurado to name a few!!
16 horsepower supported Nick a few times Evan!! Only band i know with Christian lyrics to score a 10 in NME
I think the last “Christian” album I bought was something by Russ Taff…
I’ll stick with my 70s Classic Rock and “Smooth Jazz.”
love Sufjan Stevens, too.
Ben Folds was on a Christian label until he wrote a song with a naughty, naughty title…
*chuckle*
as a musician, i really can’t stand the idea of “Christian” music, honestly. it’s like…that’s not a genre! that’s ridiculous!
also, i tire easily of one-trick writers, as in, everything has to be about God, etc…
it’s like, are you really a writer?
Read the response. I had no idea Ken Silva was mentored by Tozer. Impressive.
Eavn – it’s not Christian “music”, it’s Christian message put to music.
A difference.
Well in Silva-speak, “mentor” means “listening to cassette tapes” at least in the case of Walter Martin. In the case of Tozer, it could be reading a book about him. It’s hard to say.
By his standards, I was a protege of Miles Davis.
Hi Evan i agree to a point,i would say the bands i mentioned are serious musicians, and considered that in the secular industry ( thats why i didnt list delirious haha;-)
It seemed at one stage in church, everyone wanted to form a band, i was like can you even play a instrument? Funny God never called them to be plumbers, it was always musicians
David does write a lotttt about God,but hes most definitely a writer i’d say a poet!
Yeah it doesn’t take much to be dropped from a Christian label or shop…
I remember when Bill Mallonee wrote the song Love Cocoon which was a celebration of married sexuality,i think his cd’s was dropped from Christian bookshops…
i know, i know, i know, but i feel like it should be on the same playing field as all other music…because honestly, when artists who happen to be Christian and also happen to be TALENTED play on the same field, people don’t listen OR not listen to them based on what their message is. so it seems if the artist has a message to get out to the general public, it’s counterproductive to cloister it in some countercultural subset that’s only available in the Christian bookstore.
and i don’t know how it is these days, but when i was in HS (90’s) most of the “Christian” music was marketed like “listen to this if you like Sarah McLachlan!” and it was mostly watered down garbage, musically.
haha, Ben’s song definitely did NOT belong on a Christian label…it was ridiculous, though, because he didn’t try to release it on their label, he just happened to record it…
and if you know anything about Ben Folds, you know he has a wicked sense of humour when it comes to music…
i mean, he covered Dr. Dre!
I hope you would not question someone like Phil Driscoll’s talent. There are many Christians who are talented musically, some play Christian and music some do not. Ken Silva is a talented singer and musician as is Mr. Tom Schlueter. I love Hillsong music as far as worship music is concerned, and as for groups – I like Casting Crowns.
Have you seen the tesimony of Korn’s guitarist who became a believer? Great stuff!!
Wow…I feel like such a loser…
I really do enjoy CCM and Christian musicians who write songs all about God, their relationship with Him, their troubles and moments of doubt, and praise songs… etc…I can relate to that, as a musician.
Y’all make me feel like I’m not in with the ‘cool Christian’ music w/ obscure bands crowd. I’m over here stuck on my Audio Adreneline or Jeremy Camp…
Although, some of my favorite bands are run by Atheists.
:puts on devil horns:
You can listen to one of my CDs of music here– for free. ROFL. I have no idea how my whole CD got uploaded here without me knowing it. Ahhh well. It’s the Lord’s music. All original. Words and music by yours truly. Enjoy and be blessed.
Green Day is fond of some profanity, yet, within their last album was a deeper message… I think there is more going on with them than most realize…
I listen “selectively” to most music today. I avoid most with strong language, but most often it is on one track… even some groups use profanity and yet if one understands the message and context one might caught a clue as to who and what is actually being stated.
I am not a “fan” of profanity as I have even confronted some for their language… not like an ODM but as a friend.
I look at it this way… do I want the “f’ coming out of my kids mouth? Then why do I want it to flow out of my own… I just ask people to apply that to themselves.
Yet, some people could care less what their kids say… so in that I am not expecting them to change… but to at least think about how they can better communicate.
iggy
Iggy,
Yeah, I tend to not be a fan of profanity in music either. I don’t listen to that stuff.
Rap is the worst. as a form of artistic expression it’s earned its place in the music world, but it ain’t my cup of tea. I just can’t bear to listen to that language and the messages of hate and violence.
Perhaps I can get absolution from Ken and still make it to heaven. lol.
well…i’m a potty mouth, granted. but i will say that i also tend to tune out when a person seems to rely on profanity to the exclusion of other vocabulary…
so, like…usually the artists i like the most use profanity sparingly, and when they do, it’s because they MEAN it.
i remember all that flap years ago when Alanis Morissette first hit the scene, and “You Oughta Know” won a Grammy, and some people had their little panties in a wad because she uses the “f-word” once in the song, quite prominently…
but the question, to me, is “seriously – was there any other way to communicate what she was saying? no. the power of the line was in that word.”
Hi i think i agree with Bono on this one, good music is normally about either running away from God or running to him…
Evan – I would love to visit your blog because I have observed your intellect, but I can’t get past the first title I saw. You should have a “blue room” so puritans like me can enjoy your writing!
Richard,
Good luck with that…
I predict in about 500 years, there will be an ODM that states… “hmmm that Richard guy was not that bad…”
(You know like the Pope recently stated about Luther.)
Oh wait, they will say that about Rick Warren, but you and I will still be in ODM prugatory until they let Jesus know who He can give grace to or not.
iggy = )
Man, my collection runs from Dio to Zoe Girls…
I mostly have Christian Indie artist that most people wont hear about or if you will it will be in a few years.
I was playing Gretchen 2 years before she hit the Christian mainstream…
My fave right now is Stoned Grace which is not a “Christian
group, but members are Christian and the lyrics are subtle and deep and filled with bit and nuggets of truth and gospel.
They are a retro group on the style of Robin Trower and Black Crowes…
My fave voice is Dio or Ian Gillian… but I do not listen to much Sabbath, Dio or Deep Purple… but man these guys have voices…
My fave guitarists are Steve Morse and Joe Satriani… but I would rather watch Steve Vai play…
But really the list is pretty long… I love Phil Keaggy but I am not a huge fan of his music anymore…
Christian bands it would be Derrick Webb and Caedmon’s Call… which is weird as I did not like CC years ago.
iggy
yaaaaaaaawn….
Next thing RA will be accused of flagrantly using back-masking as the literary source of his devil worship liturgies which also consists of biting off the heads of small kittens.
I LOOOOVE it when these folks get all hot and bothered for classical music, oh so transcendent, written by
lechers (Franz Liszt),
debauched crazies(Mozart),
control freaks (Bach),
and the murderously angry (Beethoven)
folk, some of whom used their stylistics to actually satirize the worship of the Church (Mozart, again).
So much for the “lifestyle” issues…it must not matter if you’re dead and you never used that “dirty sexual afro-carribbean beat” (that’s a verbatim quote from a pastor I had the misfortune of hearing once).
Then again…
lecherous–in obsessing over other people’s genital use.
debauched–a self-indulgent wallowing in whatever they perceive to be wrong
crazy–um, do I have to explain the connection? can you say “cross-dressing”?
Control freaks–hello? Tell me something I don’t know.
murderously angry–close your eyes, and click any given archive sidebar of one of those “ministry” blogs.
Hmmmm….
you guys call yourself emergent?
Who even has a CD collection anymore?
I have my 80 GB ipod, full of great music, John Pipers, Johnny Mac’s and WOTMR podcasts and great golf video podcasts.
not to mention two versions of the Bible.
I do not think Christians should fill their head with garbage, so the replies on this post explain an awful lot. That is a scriptural command, BTW, and I believe it is part of being a living sacrifice.
It is personal choice, indeed. Are you going to feed the flesh, or the spirit?
RE: the emergent=technology hipsters. (some friendly jibes at PB)
Yep. We’re all spec-wearing, soul-patch having, artsy-fartsy, boy-chicks who like lattes and our trendy clothes.
This comment thread shows that a lot of folks here dig CCM, worship music, etc. etc.
who’d a thunk that being thoughtful and engaged with musicians (ummm…can you say “discerning”?) wouldn’t be good enough?
But good on ya, PB.
Praise you.
You’re hip to the technology.
As far as your ipod goes:
John Piper…great.
J-Mac-Attack…only great when he’s not flaming people with armchair research.
WOTMR…now THAT explains an awful lot.
Golf…would love to go hit a bucket of balls with you if I’m ever in your neck of the woods and you’re up for it–you’re in Michigan, right? I’ve got a wicked slice, it needs to get fixed.
=)
Really? Really? You want to go here? You, the guy who was busily swapping allusions to ultraviolent gangster movies with Doug Paggitt? The only reason Ken didn’t write something like this about you is because you’re on his team and that’s all that’s important to Ken.
So please, stow the self-righteousness.
Now I’m lost. lol.
I thought that Ken was a fan of the Goo-Goo Dolls…
hehehehe what’s at the top right now?
oh, if it’s the “erotic” thing, i’m being completely ironic.
my blog’s not that scary. i mean, i have a foul mouth, but that’s the only disclaimer necessary.
Silly Chris L, its never about principle, its always about team politics.
also, half of them were gay.
haha.
Tchaikovsky…
likely Schubert…
Chopin
Saint-Saens
Britten
Copland
Leonard Bernstein
Gian Carlo Menotti
Samuel Barber (my faaaavorite. one of them)
Poulenc
TO NAME A FEW…
oh, and there are rumors about Handel…
um, i think God created art to show us the complexity and beauty of His creation and he gave artists such varying perspectives to illuminate the same thing…
yeah, God created beautiful art so that he could command his people not to experience it.
kind of like Jesus turning water into flat diet coke, because that was thrilling for everyone…
Evan – the first title I saw used two words beginning with m and f. Do you have a verbally hygienic blog? I am an old and entrenched believer who loves gays but cannot abide foul language.
Sorry. Let me know the next time you post a “clean” article that doesn’t sound too angry!
i post constantly.
go there now.
the one you’re referring to is several days old.
right now, i’m covering the Petraeus testimony.
i can’t guarantee “no” potty words, though…
my brother and father are/were sailors.
their fault.
OK, Evan, I just commented on your blog and I did it with my eyes closed. A miracle!!
haha, and i responded to your comment.
I just commented on Evan’s blog. It was painless, except when I came out I felt an urge to say the “d” word. I hope that goes away!
“Dookie”???
*shudder*, the ODM’s wouldn’t like me CD’s…Dream Theater, Steve Vai, Metallica, Bach (his music was considered by many as too bold in its day for church)
you don’t understand – music itself became and accepted Jesus as it’s Lord and Saviour. It’s like the trinity, people are in the band, and yet the band is by itself.
which is so stressful, because there is already religious conflict in my house, since my black lab declared her Rastafarianism almost IMMEDIATELY after i rescued her.
i keep baptizing her, but she thinks we’re playing…
I don’t get the problem. My iPOD has a range of stuff, from CCM such as Michael Card, John Michael Talbot and Rich Mullins (the MAN!); to great 70s rock – Pink Floyd, Queen, Led Zep; 90’s Brit Pop – Blur, Oasis, Pulp; Roots and Folk – Eliza Carthy, Wailin’ Jennies, Seth Lakeman; some classical – Bach, Mozart, Debussy, Shostakovich; and some worship music – Matt Redman, Vineyard UK, etc
I try and listen critically, both musically and lyrically. Passive listening is as intellectually dead as staring at the TV screen, and I want to interact with the music, so I want to know why Green Day swear (I like Springsteens explanation – actually about Rage Against the Machine – that the consumerist society has so deadened people that the only way to shake yourself out of the stupor is to shout and swear until you’re awake), why Dave Gilmour played like he did on Shine On You Crazy Diamond – it makes me weep every time I listen to it; the saucy humour of Blur in songs such as Country House betraying a disappointment in the middle class hypocrisy (anti-depressents, wine and swinging are ok – just as long as you secure a comfortable life for your family).
Good music is an artistic and cultural heart-cry. And I find profanity better than mediocity.
oh, Rage Against The Machine…
which reminds me of how i have to get tickets for Lollapalooza…
Radiohead
Rage Against The Machine
Nine Inch Nails
(so, basically worth it for the headliners)
but also:
Wilco
Cat Power
Amadou & Mariam
Brazilian Girls
and those are just the ones i love love love.
i didn’t list people i just happen to like.
http://www.lollapalooza.com
if i get enough sponsors, i’ll put a number on my back, add an extra day to my trip, travel to Minnesota, and ring Ingrid’s doorbell and run.
Tim~
That wasn’t Doug Pagitt.
prolly one too many acid trips for you while listening to Pink Floyd….
Way to address the substance of what I wrote. Doesn’t change the fact that you’re neck deep in what you condemn others for.
John, I’d like for you to answer the question in regards to the references of the ultra violent gangster movie, please.
Do you mean the Untouchables?
I think I saw that on TNT or something. I stated that it was so violent I couldn’t watch the baseball bat scene.
But it still wasn’t Doug Pagitt.
I agree with Ian.
I agree with Evan (I love Wilco!)
Let the stone throwing begin!
I think its cute they way John tries to dance around his sin. Oh, its ok to watch ultraviolent mob movies as long as their on cable TV and you hide your face during the most violent bits, but if you dare to listen to a 3 minute track from Green Day, why you’re a terrible person.
Its rank hypocrisy John.
OK John, We all know it was TJ. I’m over joyed that you went on a video camera and interviewed with TJ acted all nice to his face and then over the next week preceeded to slam him, write open letters to him, post an angry letter from your wife, etc.
But in the begining of the video that you posted originally, I believe you were talking about the “boom” being in screen during American Gangster. Now, I’ve never watched that movie (on T.V. or in a theater) so I can’t address that but I am curious why you would allow such filth into your mind. Won’t it affect your worldview? Maybe we should start a new blog about why John Chisam isn’t a Christian.
That’s essentially it. John’s falling over himself to condemn everyone who listens to secular music, and doesn’t see a problem with the kind of backstabbing behavior he engaged (engages) in.
this inspired me to listen to a 3 minute Green Day track…
i have done far too many good things today, and i need to balance it out.
Oh my how the hypocrites rumble…
I invite you to write such a blog Joe. I have never said anyone was not a Christian. I have and continue to question teachings which are in the best construction bad teaching, and at the worst, rank heresy. Sort of like your pastor, Joe.
And then there is psycho Tim who is so double-minded they desire to hire him for a Wrigley’s commercial. But I still have not questioned Tim’s salvation, just his discernment.
rumble?
I better get my zip gun. I just got transported to West Side Story…
“When you’re a Jet, you’re a Jet…”
Which Pastor John? I have quite a few. I can’t write such a blog b/c I would find it is repulsive as any of the other ODM’s. You still haven’t answered how you can allow such filth into your mind and why Silva hasn’t called you out for it. You put it out there for all the world to see. You watched a violent movie, maybe you should ask Ingrid about what that stuff does to your mind. BTW, if you were calling me a hypocrite in your last comment I’d be happy to make right whatever hypocrisy you can prove. Use my archives, the archives here, wherever. Otherwise, I’ll be expecting an apology. You seem to have a bit of a temper John. Don’t worry, I won’t be putting up any open letters to you calling you to get saved and then offering to get a beer with you another time. That’s just now how I roll.
It is not a sin to listen to secular music just as it is not a sin to look at a secular painting or sculpture. Most music can be a waste of time, and some music uses language and subject matters that can draw your mind in an unrighteous direction and that would be very suspect.
But let me say as someone who is medieval in many things, just because someone does not listen to secular music doesn’t mean they are right with God. They can still be nasty, pompous, self rightoeus, judgmental, and a host of other things that do not reflect Christ.
I have seen professing believers who smoke and drink and yet are friendly and will go the extra mile to help other Christians. I have seen professing believers who don’t do anything like that who are mean and isolated and whose whole Christian experience revolves around inspecting what others are doing.
I would choose to fellowship with the former.
Wow. I’m a psycho now? You want to explain how I am double-minded, or a psycho? Or is this just what you do when you get caught in an obvious hypocritical stance. I suppose it was too much to expect an ODM to admit sin and repent.
Also, now that Pastorboy has called me a psycho where are all those ODMs at that got upset for me using the term “jerkhole”? Oh that’s right he’s on their team, so he gets to use whatever terminology he wants and watch whatever movie he wants and its no problem. IN fact they’ll even with praises link to the video of him discussing those ultraviolent mobster movies. But me they’ll research two years worth of twitter and forum posts to put up a hit peice on my movie watching habits.
Talk about double minded.
Pastorboy,
Once oagain you focus on the minotr and miss the major…
Yes it was not Doug Paggit… it was Tony Jones… but now you also must pay attention to facts and stop taking one sentance out of context and slandering others.
You do that often… in fact you twisted much said in that very interview…
iggy
Tim – what are these mobster movies you reference?
PB,
Sort of like what I did with your questionable teachings and squishy theology? LOL!
In fact, instead of taking the rebuke you got all offensive that I asked for “clarity” on some of your heretical views… you call others names but then think you have it all together! LOL! You actually have some very bad theology for a “reformed” follower. It seems John you care more what Ken Silva states in Kudos than what the bible teaches in many areas.
You call others hypocrites… well I have news for you we all our including you… as you are denying scripture again if you do not include yourself…
Romans 3:9-11
That includes even you, my friend….
I might add that I see you and other ODM’s add the Law to Grace… as you stated at one point Jesus instated Leviticus 18! Good grief, I guess you also deny scripture when Paul states, Galatians
Once again, your bad theology is teaching what is contrary to scripture! In fact, it is anathema! Or, have you not read and understood what Paul stated…
Galatians 1:8 “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!”
Yet you do just that when you mix law and grace! You teach people to be under the curse then attack others as if you hold perfect doctrine. Shame on you…
iggy
uh, duh, Tim, it’s because you have two heads and play with knives for fun.
hey PB- I’ve been thinking about your comments for a little while today. I wasn’t too happy that you called Tim a ‘psycho’ and double-minded. I think it’s rude to do so… I was reading your blog tonight and in a comment in response to iggy you said:
“Your vitriol, however, makes me question your salvation. Look at the tests in 1 John, and note that those who hate their brother, even to the point of not actively loving them are ones who are not saved.”
I was just wondering how you lined up your comments to Tim in light of this response on your own blog. Unless you seriously consider us not saved because we like an occasional green day song… because you’re definitely not actively loving tim.
thanks.
The funny thing is that I have never attacked John aka pastorboy.. I have only asked him to give the same clarity he demands of others… I have only held him to his own standard and he calls that “vitriol” and though he claims he has never stated i am not saved, I think that statement pretty much states just that… now he will worm and squirm and weave and dodge, but we can all read his words and see he comes up short just like the rest of us…
Again, he does not like to be held to his own standard yet calls other hypocrites… how ironic…
iggy
Oh and boy do I feel the love from PB.. boy do I! LOL!
iggy
Mandy,
To be fair, I only can judge Tim on what I have read and seen on his blogs and on this blog.
Iggy,
A multiplicity of words does not make you right. You and I both agree that we are saved by a foreign righteousness that is by faith apart from the law.
Joe,
Your pastor Rob Bell. I have shown ad nauseum his departure from orthodoxy on my blog. I am sure he will do you proud at Seeds of Compassion agreeing with the Dalai Llama.
All:
I do not think listening to secular music is sin, I have some on my I-pod. I contend that there is filth that we should not put into our mind, which is a lot of todays popular music, so I choose not to listen to that. If you choose to listen to filth, then that is feeding the flesh and not the spirit. But that is between you and God, hopefully the music is not so loud that you quench the spirit and cannot hear the still small voice of God.
Can Fountains of Wayne and Bruce Springsteen coexist on my iPod along side Rich Mullins and Caedmon’s Call?
I’ll let you know. I may have to put them in separate playlists until they behave.
OH, ROB! Why didn’t you say so. I thought you meant Steve Carter. You still didn’t tell me where I’ve been hypocritical. Is it b/c I don’t watch violent movies? Or is it b/c I don’t act nice to a guys face and then slam him for weeks to get my google juice?
Pastorboy,
I really can’t believe you think anyone should take you seriously based on how you’ve acted in this thread. The fact that you think I’m double-minded based on your e-stalking of my life, and yet maintain there’s nothing wrong with what you and your mob-mentality link buddies have done demonstrates a real inability to objectively evaluate anything.
Have a great life PB, I’ll be praying for you.
John Chisam says,
Then M.Reed quotes him as saying,
which might cause me to question his…
Joe, Joe. Get over yourself. Are you mad that the Yankees lost and the Red Sox one and you are taking it out on me?
I still have not called anyone a non- Christian.
I still don’t play violent video/computer/PC games, cussing online, and then question other people’s movie habits. (Tim)
Yeah, I watch a good deal of violent movies. I do not walk out because of violence, or because of swearing, unless it is blasphemy, then I must walk out. I do not feel convicted by watching violence, but I do feel convicted if God’s holy name is taken in vain. I feel no need to repent, and I am not going to be held accountable by guys who believe that they can promote satanic death metal music in their church building and by a Yankee fan who also has a pastor who teaches Universalism, yoga breathing, and will share a Platform with a pagan polytheist.
Which violent video games do I play? I don’t question anyone’s movie habits… except when they come on here and begin hypocritically condemning people for listening to Green Day. I’m still amazed that you’ve managed to justify watching violent movies while condemning those that listen to secular music. You’er a white washed tomb Pastor Boy.
Oh, and as for cussing, I suppose the difference between us is that I believe God gave us the Bible for something much greater than giving us a list of absolute english words that are naughty.
I believe the personal invective line has just been crossed and the medal ceremony will begin shortly.
Shweww. And the most offensive of all is the Yankee reference. Only emergents are Red Sox fans!
Does it pass the Philippians 4 test?
Do I really want my Pastor listening to this music? I guess if he needs to contextualize~that is he needs to look like the world, listen to what the world listens to because then he has the right to preach the Gospel, then…NO. You have the right to preach the Gospel, and it is already relevant and contextual..In ALL TIMES in ALL PLACES.
We don’t need no stinkin contextualization
Wow. Pride heaped on top of pride. Congrats pastorboy, you’re better than Joe and I, and its just like Jesus said, “if you’re better than the people who you sin against, its all good”.
You’re a joke pastorboy. You’re busy condemning people for listening to Green Day while you watch violent movies with 50 times the cussing in that song.
Perhaps you need to ask yourself the question, “does your congregation really want a pastor that watches such movies”?
Oh that’s right you feel no need to repent. After all, I minister to my community by allowing them to use our building and Joe is part of a church who’s pastor has an audience of non-Christians from time to time.
Using your line of logic Hitler is our savior, becuase none of our sins are as great as his.
Tim – you never answered my question. What are these gangster movies?
No, Tim, I am no better than you. But you have a plank in your eye, and besides, I am not accountable to you, by your own standards. If I have wronged anyone it is God, if I have sinned, it is against God. And I have plenty that I must repent for daily.
You guys are hypocrites because you disagree with the ODM’s for going after poor lil Tim in Owosso, MI because the ODM’s are not part of his church…
So I will be looking for your membership applications before I allow you to tell me I need to repent for watching a movie, or for anything else for that matter.
Rick-
American Gangster ( I had to walk out…blasphemy)
The Untouchables (When I saw it, I didn’t have that standard)
And if you must know, I have seen the Godfather Series more than once. And I saw Scarface before I was saved.
Typical ODM. Can’t admit sin, because you have a graceless (and by extension Christless) theology. Your justification of yourself has been nothing more than pointing out the sins of others, and whether you’re right or wrong about others’ sins, it doesn’t excuse your own.
“because you have a graceless (and by extension Christless) theology.”
Frustrated hyperbole.
“and whether you’re right or wrong about others’ sins, it doesn’t excuse your own.”
Exactly.
i always think this kind of comment is so funny b/c it’s soooooooo 1987. honestly, like, who listens to death metal?
the kids today listen to EMO and a bunch of other tripe, but, like…death metal?
it’s all so Church Lady…
*breathes in deeply and steps back into downward facing dog….and exhales and pushes down to the floor…inhale look UP…and exhale, push back….downward facing dog….”
spoooooooooooooooky!
didn’t God give us our breath?
words considered “curse words” are cultural in nature, can mean one thing in New York and something completely different in London, and change with the generations…
so.
unless GOD updates Ye Olde List Of Rules at the whims of funny people on earth who combine other naughty words into new, even more fun compound words, and judges accordingly, then it’s much ado about nothing.
i was under the impression that God doesn’t change, though.
hm…
Church Lady.
oh, and i was going to go feed the poor today, but then i read those Green Day lyrics, and they so polluted my mind that i’m going to kick puppies and TP Christians’ houses instead.
Pastorboy,
You still haven’t shown me where I was a hypocrite. Please do so.
Perhaps,
It’s a little Ted Haggard syndrome. You hate the hypocrisy in your own life so you have to run around accusing others. It’s OK John, there’s room at the foot of the cross for you.
Tim, I am only saved by Grace. I am a far worse sinner than you. So no fair saying I have a graceless theology. Unless, of course, by grace you mean that you get a “I can sin all I want because God is full of grace’ card. Then you are dead wrong. (Romans 6:1-2)
Just for fun, RE: violent video games and double mindedness:
Joe,
You are a hypocrite by saying that ODM’s should not go after pastors and church’s that are not their own and hold them accountable, yet you tell me to repent for the movies I watch.
And for that matter, this whole site is hypocritical!
PB – Regurgitating someone’s sins again is an act of satanism, the accuser, and does not reflect the nature of the redemptive God who forgets. It is unchristian even when proving some point.
How can you on one hand claim all grace for yourself and yet present evidence of sin for Tim on the other. A disconnect to be sure.
And a sin which Tim has publicly apologized for.
There’s the graceless theology I was talking about John. You know that I apologized and repented for the second paragraph of that quote. So why did you post it? There’s only one answer: there is no grace in your theology, you will continue to hold my sin against me until the end of time, no matter that Christ, and those I sinned against forgave me. I was shown more grace by non-Christians than I’ve been shown by you. Your theology is Christless.
And as for the “violence” of the game itself, it was a TEXT BASED GAME. It was less violent than an episode of Pokemon.
Man, I could teach you all a thing or two about being humble…
Thanks Rick, you are right.
Not to justify, but didn’t he ask what violent video game and what double mindedness?
No, that was his wife. Point taken.
I am outta here. Peace out
Sorry Tim, just responding to a question from Mandy. I am sure you are forgiven.
As for this site, it is more violent than Pokemon so I gotta go.
Peace, out.
“Man, I could teach you all a thing or two about being humble…”
An oxi-moron, yes? It would do us all well to remember it is one thing to discuss and disagree about doctrine and/or perspective, but is against Christ to accuse each other of sin. The only reason that we do not have people knocking on our door with indisputable evidence that we are hypocrites is that we ALL have mastered the art of commiting sins of the mind and heart while retaining that unseen insulation.
Sin should never be a weapon, especially among brothers and sisters, because the fragments will kill us all.
Even worse. In your mind being corrected by a brother, responding with repentance and apology and, in this case, not doing it again, is “double minded”. Your theology is through and through graceless and so Christless.
I said sorry and that I was done.
But as Michael Corleone said in Godfather III “Whenever I think I am out they pull me back in”
Last word: I agree with Rick, I was wrong, I am sorry. I am leaving this site now because I said things and responded in ways that fed my pride and made me right. I hope as Joe said that there is room at the cross for me. I know there is. Thank God for grace.
And so let it be. (Beatles circa 1971)
Pastorboy,
Apology accepted, please consider also, that you just contextualized. Contemplate that you may have been sold a false bill of sale on that issue.
John,
YOu must feel guilty about the movies you watch b/c I never called you to repentence over the movies you watched. I asked you to help me see how your position wasn’t grossly inconsistent. Then I told you later that there is room at the cross for you as there is for all of us. So either you misread what I wrote or you lied. In the spirit of good nature, I’ll assume the former. In fact John, I’m not sure I’ve ever called you to repentance.
PB,
way to avoid my question from a comment on your blog. honestly, i’m ashamed of you. Not only for bringing up tim’s sin from a lonnnnnng time ago (I still can’t believe you went there- how did you even find it… do you have it saved on your computer for quick reference?) but I quote your own words to you- and you sidestep.
Is this how you actively love someone? It’s sinful….. but don’t worry, I’m letting it go. I won’t bring it up months and months later.
I hope you have a really great day.
Hey Mandy – I think PB repented of it, but I have a fresh list of Tim’s sins that I am incubating while I sieze upon the most effective and damaging moment to release them.
Waiting and watching…
ha ha ha. thank you rick.
i’m keeping a list of Tim’s sins, too!
but nobody can see it until i glitter and laminate it.
Don’t worry, Evan, I am bringing yours to the taxidermists!
honestly evan, i did just LOL @ that one.
I think I’ll go listen to some green day now…
She’s not listening to Green Day. Its some chick I don’t recognize. So for all of you ODMs who have been busily scurrying about chronicling her sin to attack us you can add that to the list.
ODMs listen to – Black Day
CEOs – Green Day
Gays – Pink Day
Draft dodger – Yellow Day
KKK – White Day
Communists – Red Day
Left Behind – Some Day
Agnostic – What Day
Atheist – No Day
And I’m listening to Colin Hay. So add that to my list, be sure to put extra glitter on his name.