I’m a bit behind on my podcast listening, so I’ve just now caught Rob Bell’s Easter sermon. I want to encourage everyone to listen to it.
Then consider everything that the ODMs have said about Rob Bell. Sort of makes you wonder what they think orthodoxy is.
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
41 Comments(+Add)
Have the ODM’s said something about that specific message that you posted here? If not, your logic is a bit off balance.
Read the below quote.
“As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice. And as a man I have the duty to see to it that human society does not suffer”
Now, this man is obviously a good Christian man and he seems pretty orthodox in his views. Thus, judging the man by the quote above, then the ODM’s should have no right to say anything bad about him.
Forget about the fact that the man that said this was Adolf Hitler.
You can’t judge a man by one message. You have to judge a man by his life’s messages. I have heard many of Bell’s messages and can say that every once in a while he says something good, (but then so did Hitler) but for the most part his messages are nothing more than Satan appearing as an angel of light. They actually undermine the Cross.
So as much as it would be really great to judge Bell an excellent ambassador for Christ because he said something orthodox, we cannot do that. I would never judge a man based on ONE bad sermon, and I certainly wouldn’t be so naive to judge a man based on one good sermon.
But the point is that the ODMs have accused Rob Bell of heresy concerning many of the issues that he addresses in this sermon – thus showing them to be quite wrong (suprise).
Inquisitor,
This is just one more example of how ODMs take ~3 incidents that they’re able to twist and brand him as someone who denies the heart of the Christian faith.
Meanwhile there is never any sort of comment on the actual content of his sermons. Why? Oh that’s right because that would reveal that Rob Bell is actually orthodox and then how would ODMs drive google hits to their websites?
Seriously Inq, how about you start listening to the MHBC podcast, and give it a serious listen. Write reviews covering entire sermons, rather than listening to the lies and slander of ODMs. Because that’s what they’re doing. They’re lying about a brother in Christ in order to build their audience.
But you’re more than willing to judge him negatively based on the three incidents brought up over and over and over and over again by ODMs. Yeah, you’re objective.
Nothing heretical but no gospel either. No presentation or mention of the atonement and the reason for the greatest act of that love to which he refers. I do not believe from this one message Pastor Bell could be found as teaching heresy, however his methodology would not be mine.
The deepest joy as a believer should emanate from that which was the joy that was set before Christ Himself. These are very subtle shifts in focus and anyone who comes from a different perspective runs the real risk of being accused of nitpicking.
Rick,
I’m not really sure how you can say a sermon based around the Resurrection in which our resurrection is based on His doesn’t contain the gospel.
Rick,
The Resurrection is the Gospel!
This is the good news of Jesus, that He rose from the dead…
That was what was preach throughout acts…
This is the scandal you even wrote about, that this Jesus rose from the dead. Nobody cares about a good man that died on a Cross (though we know all that happened now) but how can one not wonder at One who rose from the dead? In that He proved we also will rise from the dead.
iggy
like Lucifer, who is actually a completely different character?
Iggy:“The Resurrection is the Gospel!” You couldn’t be more correct. Note 1 Cor 15:1-20 “I want to remind you of the gospel I preached…Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures…Christ has indeed been raised from the dead…”
I’m not a fan of Rob Bell. I’ve read and listened to very little of anything he has written or preached. What little I have been exposed to has caused me to be very wary of him. That said, however, I am reminded of Paul’s words in Philippians 1:18 “…what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice,”
He said a few things in a sermon once that made me go “hmm dunno about that” but otherwise I first read up on Hell/Hades/Sheol/Gehenna because of his sermon on it.
For me it was a case like Mark Driscol where I had this persona of the pointy tailed devil himself built up and when I listened for the first time I was left waiting to hear him say “now let’s all remove our shoes, bow to the east and say ‘all hail Bell and the great dragon’ “
Wow, Keith. You are slippin’ man!
Rick/Iggy:I may have hit the [Submit] key a little too quickly–I was in a hurry to get out the door. To clarify:
1) The resurrection is certainly PART of the Gospel, but it is not the ONLY part of the Gospel. Christ came to save sinners (His own words). Salvation was purchased in Christ’s death, burial and resurrection (”if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith”), but salvaiton is not imparted until one is drawn to Christ, repents of his/her sins and “believes on the Lord Jesus Christ.” There had to death–the death of the spotless Lamb–before there could be resurrection.
2) Don’t read my words as an endorsement of Rob Bell. I think he and others like him are dangerous. As Inquisitor states–it’s only one message. Hardly enough for me to hang my hat on. Knowing a couple of Bell’s followers personally, I’d say he’s nothing more than one of many “young pups” that think they’ve come up with a better way (”more relevant”) of doing things. Bell just happens to have a better marketing department.
oh Keith, watch out for that Jesus guy, his followers were nuts! Luke 9:54
Keith, I believe that’s called getting owned.
It’s a relevant contextualized term, you probably won’t get it.
=)
Hi Keith,
I’m actually sorry about what I wrote – I should have respectfully said “Hi Keith, please don’t judge Rob by his followers – most people have followers who are strange or rude.”
saying it in a funny way isn’t necessarily a bad thing…
True, but offence can come sometimes from flipant comments like mine.
Happy Birthday Tim!
iggy
Thanks Iggy.
Dangerous it what sense? Dangerous like “wide path” dangerous? Or dangerous like don’t blow dry your hair in the bathtub dangerous?
But one quote from one book, one statement from some guy on a blog in N.H., or one sermon from some pastor who instead of pointing his flock towards Jesus preaches about the “dangers” of Rob Bell is enough. *shakes head* I just don’t get that.
I know at least 9,000,000 people who are connected to Kevin Bacon but I can’t really say that I know Kevin Bacon.
Some say I follow Paul, some I follow Apollos and still others…Yeah you know where I’m going.
This statement would be alright except that you already said he was dangerous. I’m not sure what is more dangerous:
1) Being a “young pup” who is trying new ways to communicate the gospel?
2) Or being an “old dog” that refuses to admit that potentially there are other ways to communicate the gospel?
Without dealing with specific teachings, Bell is part of a larger phenomenon in the American ecclesia. We have morphed into followers of men. This theological loyalty travels in all directions and is shared by orthodox and emergent alike.
It separates into teams and those teams have captains and co-captains. MacArthur, Bell, Warren, Spurgeon, and Calvin are just some of the captains. The team loyalty blinds us all to even the most moderate of shortcomings of our team captains, and it generates disproportionate responses to any criticism of our captain and/or team.
We are very protective of our team and captain, and we usually feel free to find fault with not only other team captains, but the loyalty that the other teams have to their captains. We are much more assured of our team and our captain’s pure motives and somewhat suspicious of the other team and the motives of their captain.
This phenomenon is also reflected on the local level as the office of pastor has been elevated to CEO status, and loyalty to him has seen a dramatic upturn. The local church loyalties as well as the theological persuasions creates a sectarian atmosphere in the American ecclesiaistical culture. The common ground for exhibiting Christ’s love among brethren has shrunk as to almost be unobservable.
The divides can be over music, service style, video usage, evangelistic techniques, and other issues that should not separate true brethren. And yet those issues will sometimes supersede even larger issues such as baptism regeneration, communion understanding, Bible translations, and other seemingly larger doctrinal issues will be overlooked because of agreement about styles and music and other things.
And even moderate disagreement is generating a hostility that is no more CHristian that the visciousness that accompanies political campaigns. So when someone has some moderate to substantive issues with MacArthur or Bell or Warren, the lines are drawn and the battlestations begin attacking and defending that many times contains loyalty driven energy instead of a dispassionate discourse that has the opportunity for understanding, maybe not agreement.
And within that discourse we might learn what it is to be a Christian to other Christians, even if we have very stong and unpleasant views about the teachings of somebody’s team captain. I think the more we fail to even try the more we will lose the ability to exercise such Christlikeness sheerly because of lack of use. Those muscles have atrophied.
Two things:
1. It’s a long way from Oaklahoma to Mi, so how personally can you know them or how much of a “follower” can they be?
2. How old does he have to be until he’s not a “young pup”? Dude’s almost 40. I wonder if Paul had you in mind when he was writing to Timothy about youth being despised…
Tim – my son and I couldn’t get this song out of our heads when we read your title:
So this is Heresy
And what have you done?
Another year over
And a new one just begun
And so this is Heresy
I hope you have fun
The near and the dear one
The old and the young.
A very Merry Heresy
And a Happy New Year
Let’s hope it’s a good one
Without any fear
And so this is Heresy
For weak and for strong
For rich and the poor ones
The road is so long
And so Happy Heresy
For black and for white
For yellow and red ones
Let’s stop all the fight.
It’s a long way from MI to CA…but that doesn’t stop anyone from having an opinion going that direction. What’s your point?
“I know at least 9,000,000 people …I don’t believe that for one minute.
Paul (”old dog”) told Timothy (”young pup”) to “preach the Word.” So I guess that covers “…other ways to communicate the gospel?”
My point is what do you mean you know some of his “followers personally” You made a claim I find to lack credibility, and to be hyperbolic. Way to totally ignore the entire second point too. So how many followers do you know personally and how do they follow him from Oak?
Haha, I just read your comment Keith. Cracked me up. I’m not challenging your opinion going from Oak to GR. I’m challenging your statement that you attempted to use to validate your statement.
“So how many followers do you know personally and how do they follow him from Oak?”
You cannot. However, aside from any teachings, from all accounts Rob Bell seems to be a genuine Christian, an intelligent person, a good son, a family man, a good sense of humor, and a philanthropist and humanitarian.
I’m probably gonna wish I hadn’t said that!
Rick,
I’m not here to discuss Rob. As I have stated before I will not engage in conversations about him in public with people I don’t trust. What I’m trying to discuss here is Keith assertion that he personally knows followers of Rob and I want to hear more about that statement because I just don’t believe him.
Joe: The “followers of Bell” I’m referring to are a group of men (I think there were about 9,000,000 of them [sarcasm]) at the church I used to attend. If Bell said it, preached it, showed it in a video, or wore it…it was the greatest thing since sliced bread to them. They bought everything he wrote as if it were “holy writ” while at the same time ridiculing anything that remotely resembled “tradition.” We don’t attend that church anymore…it’s a joke.
“You made a claim I find to lack credibility…”So if I give you the names, are you going to know who I’m talking about?
My point was:
1) You implied (at least to me) that people couldn’t be much of a follower if they lived in Oklahoma.
2) If that’s the case, how can you or others here have opinions about preachers/teachers in states/cities other than your own?
Your logic, not mine.
I am uncomfortable with the “followers” description as it applies to people who are edified by Pastor Bell’s teachings. BTW – I do discuss men with people I don’t trust.
I can already tell it’s going to be a good week!
Attempt number two
Stinkin’ link didn’t work in the post above.
Keith – I sure wish I knew how to do things like that. That’s funny. Hey, could you help me with a blog problem?
spcrick@msn.com
Keith, even though I’m a writer here, I think that’s hilarious!
No Keith, that isn’t my logic. That’s yours, which I was trying to understand. You’ve now explained and I thank you. Feel free to carry on in any way you see fit with your…pontifications.
And Rob is not doing that how?
And that was my point about your assertion that you knew followers of Rob. Maybe you do know people that attended Mars Hill or that are in “love” with all that Rob does.
Your assertion that Rob is dangerous may be accurate if you had proof to back up your argument. However your only proof was:
Thats not proof; it’s an appeal to common practice which is a logical fallacy.
While Joe, understandably, will not discuss Rob in a public forum I will.
I’ve listened, read, and watched everything (videos and online presentations sans “everything is spiritual”) the man has done over the last 2 years and have been to the church on multiple occasions. So I believe that I may have a fuller picture than most in the online world.
My hope and prayer is that we can honestly discuss and debate the issues. Otherwise we will continue to lob rhetoric and hyperbole.
I appreciate the interaction Keith. Thanks for staying around and the cartoon was awesome.
So once again I ask.
How is Rob dangerous?
“How is Rob dangerous?”
Because he knows Tae Kwon Do!
Joe: You and I have corresponded on a couple of occasions. I believe you sincerely believe what you write, just as I do. What I’d like to know though is, why–when we disagree– is it that my comments are “pontifications,” yours by implication are truth?
No, Didn’t mean that either, Keith. I was referring to the cat picture. I believe you believe what you write and I respect that. I simply needed more explanation on what you meant about knowing “followers of Rob.”
Chris:: I got busy this afternoon; I wasn’t avoiding answering your question (”How is Rob dangerous?”) Interestingly enough, I got the answer this afternoon.
I ran into one of the men I mentioned in one of my earlier posts this morning. I haven’t seen this guy in four years, but the minute I saw him, I knew who he was–he recognized me too. Even better, I knew immediately WHAT he was. How? He looked just like this! I’m not kidding. The guy is mid-forties and there he stood: spikey hair with blonde highlights and rectangle shaped, black plastic frames. He was wearing a drab colored shirt and a little leather necklace with a sterling silver cross. I smiled to myself and asked: “Where you going to church now?” I wasn’t surprised by the answer. “LifeChurch.TV”
Here’s the deal. The emergents think they’ve come up with something new, original and relevant, but the fact is: they’re nothing but a bunch of
clownsCLONES. Nothing original about them! They copy each other’s clothes, hairdos, glasses, methods, music, etc. and think they’ve done something new/exciting/original…Bell is dangerous in the sense that he has managed to dupe a group of people to imitating him under the guise of some new revelation or method of preaching/sharing the gospel…all the way down to the type of glasses they wear. Lemming mentality. “Rob Bell’s doing it and packing ‘em in! It must be right!” (Steve Furtick has that same “look” and mentality.) Just as a side note: the guy I met couldn’t wait to tell me that “we’ve got 23 campuses in 14 states with each campus (not church) running 10000 each!” It’s about NUMBERS.
You guys gripe to high heaven when someone mentions the “look,” but from what I see–that’s what it’s ALL about! I swear, if Rob Bell smeared peanut butter on his head and strutted around in a chartruese Speedo, my “friend” and all his buddies at LifeChurch would be buying stock in Peter Pan foods! (I don’t know where you buy a Speedo)
What’s really funny to me is that John MacArthur mentions wearing a suit and you guys jump on it like a monkey on a cupcake. You all look alike just like all the suits and ties look alike!!! You’ve just got you’re noses buried too deep in your copy of Velvet Elvis to see it.
My two cents…keep the change.
http://www.speedo.com
if they did that, it would be funny for the rest of us…
although, unregulated use of Speedos is the true danger, because we really shouldn’t be spreading around that idea that just anyone should wear one.