Of the crazy, whacked-out cults out there, Scientology often makes Momonism (even the goofy Texas-polygamist-sex-cult flavor) look tame. What has kept much of its wackiness out of the spotlight, though, is its willingness and capability to use legal force and withering lawsuits to stifle criticism/exposure of their beliefs (see South Park video for a peek at some of the weirdness that is Scientology).
It seems that some the CoS’ tactics have now backfired. Wikileaks, a site that specializes in Freedom of Information, obtained a boatload of Scientology documents from an ex-cult member. The CoS threatened a lawsuit against Wikileaks, and in response, WL decided to push ahead of schedule and release thousands of pages of CoS documents in the coming weeks.
For discernment folks looking for a good place to discern, this trove of documents (which may not be available long if a lawsuit were to prevail) would likely be a wealth of information for helping de-brainwash folks coming out of the CoS, and to help stop people from entering in the first place…
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
49 Comments(+Add)
Why not have an Interspiritual Dialogue with the Scientology folks instead?
Wow, its rare you get so much vitriol combined with so much bad information and terrible use of logic.
Or, amy, you can just keep bashing our brother Rob Bell and eschew any possibility of speaking with CoS members, which seems to be what you’re advocating.
Vitriol? Bad information? Terrible use of logic? Show me where.
bad information, : “Or, amy, you can just keep bashing our brother Rob Bell (How do you define “bashing?”)
terrible use of logic: “and eschew any possibility of speaking with CoS members, which seems to be what you’re advocating.”
Your entire statement swallows every bit of slander that ODMs have used against yours and my brother Rob Bell on this issue, which means every bit of terrible logic (and outright lies in the case of A Little LEaven claiming that the video they posted is the only thing Bell said) is included in your statement.
Then you simply assume its true and use that assumption to make a vitriolic attack on Chris L.
A charitable reader would assume that I REALLY DON’T UNDERSTAND WHY it’s suddenly cool to talk about USING DISCERNMENT with a non-Christian group.
A charitable reader would assume that I have a mind of my own and have come to my own conclusions about the Interspiritual Dialogue instead of assuming that I have even read all that ODM’s have written. I happened to have found the source for the whole event (which I haven’t listened to) by going to a website connected with the Dalai Lama. When I listen to it off of there and make negative comments about Interspiritual Dialogue who are you going to blame? Last I checked the ODM’s had nothing to do with managing the Lama’s website.
What if someone here had said this about Buddhism:
For discernment folks looking for a good place to discern, there is a wealth of information about Buddhism (and or New Age) available that can help de-brainwash folks coming out of Buddhism (and/or New Age) and help stop people from entering in the first place…
Why haven’t you all promoted that idea? Why have you spent so much energy defending the Interspiritual Dialogue? Is Buddhism less harmful than Scientology?
Buddhism and New Age are religions that are happy to add “some Christian ideas” to their collection. To find commonality in everyone’s “spirituality” is a joy. What is the dialogue accomplishing besides that? How is the dialogue keeping people from “entering (Buddhism or New Age beliefs) in the first place?”
For clarification, is the above the “vitriolic attack” you’re referring to?
Why not have an Interspiritual Dialogue with the Scientology folks instead?
Oh wait someone already said that…
iggy
(acting clueless as to that the dialogue spoken about was around compassion and not about religions all being the evil of the world which we all know is true, just without the DC10’s with jet engines and frozen bodies in volcanoes and brainwashed souls and)
Okay, I knew Scientology was wacked out already. I also knew that half of what Tom Cruise has ever said has been gibberish. But have you all looked at those documents? I think hubbard was insane. That’s after looking at two sentences.
Also, it’s like a 6 year old coming up with his own beliefs and religion with his own made up words. I would love to see somebody do a comparison to elementary school peices of fiction.
And let the record show:
Evil emergents are actually believing something is untrue.
(gasp!!!!)
Right, and have you thought to check into just what learning compassion with the Dalai Lama means? Pagan rites . . .
A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers…
Yup – sounds like pagan rites…
Actually, I read somewhere that the Dalai Lama actually wrote a book about the parables of Jesus. Apparently, the readings done by His Holiness were deeply moving and caused deeply faithful Christians to weep because his insights were so penetrating that they made our sacred Scripture come alive again to them.
Tim LaHaye likes to brag about how he saw His Holiness walking by some conference room in Jerusalem (somewhere like that) and he walked up to him and said that if His Holiness had time he would like to talk with him about Jesus.
I don’t know what His Holiness said in response, but if I were him I would have said:
“Timmy, when you know as much about the Buddha as I do about Jesus (starting with pronouncing “Buddha” correctly) then I’ll be interested in speaking with you.”
I share this story to help people understand that before we enter into critique of other religions (which I think–just to be clear–is warranted) you need to do the kind of work and study that would enable you to explain or articulate your opponents position in a way that they would say is accurate and fair…not just listening/reading popular Christian dreck, Christian “news”, and books on “cults”, etc.
What does that story have to do with the Dalai Lama’s pagan rites?
It had to do with compassion – you’re the one who brought in the irrelevancy of “pagan rites” as somehow being related to compassion…
Hi all, bit OT i lived in Clearwater FL for about 3 months.. I got into a discussion with a friend about Scientology,and you’ve guessed it he was one…
He insisted i went to the day center,i was in my rebellious stage, had tried Islam and Bahai so i went..
Had my stress test,and then watched a film,luckily i skipped the sweat test..The people were lovely but it felt hmmmm very clinical..
The film shows a lady falling off a chair due to her kids and shes unconscious,the father calls the kids idiots..
The staff member told me every time were unconscious what we hear effect us,and the woman in the film would start feeling an idiot for no apparent reason..I mentioned i had only been unconscious a few times,but she asked had i ever been drunk as its the same!Sheesh she got me there
A surreal day
Irrelevancy? Only if you disbelieve what you read about the pagan rites that take place under Buddhism in their seeking to gain compassion.
Amy,
So then all of our christian motives for compassion are from Christian rites?…. most often it is Christian Rights here in America and has nothing to do with God at all… and it is not about compassion it is about me, me, me….
I am not judging you or anyone, but acknowledging that we are all sinners and in the same boat. In that we must all fall on the Mercy and Grace of God. In that we find His kindness… and can give that kindness as compassion out of purity and not selfish agendas. Please look at your own heart first before you assume the worst of others, even pagans… for that makes us no better than the Jews who once judged us Gentiles which Paul is talking about in that passage. Do we want to be guilty of the same things that God rebuked of the Jews concerning us?
iggy
oh dear. what has become of us?
Strange… I guess I never included acting in compassion toward someone else – be the person acting in compassion a Christian or a filthy Samaritan/Buddhist/Catholic/Emergent/Calvinist/NameYourBias – as practicing a pagan rite….
I guess Jesus was some pagan then, teaching the whole ‘love your neighbor’ thing, without teaching that this only applies to you if your a Christian, and otherwise such compassion is just a ‘pagan rite’…
Wow…
I agree, Nathan…
Chris,
I brought up a specific rite before when I discussed this. Did you read it? Are you truly unaware of what I am talking about or are you just trying to subtly change what I am saying?
It’s hard for me to believe that you and especially Nathan are unaware of what I am talking about.
So my question would be, why doesn’t it matter to you that the process of becoming compassionate for a Buddhist can (often?) involves pagan rites. Would it matter to you if the Dalai Lama or other Buddhists are participating in these in the Seeds of Compassion forum? That Christians who went to this event could be exposing themselves to these practices?
Or is there nothing behind the rites? And is the practice of Buddhism harmless? Should a Christian be led into visualization by the Dalai Lama, for example?
The beauty of this thread is that it shows Amy’s dogged determination to bring R Bell into every thread possible. Two threads simultaneously. One has nothing to do with R.B and one does. Fighting on two fronts has never worked out well in history–I’m just saying….
Exactly, Joe.
I’m certainly glad I live in the real world, and not the one Amy seems to live in…
Amy – the last time I checked, the OP is about Scientology, and not Brother Bell.
Perhaps your obsession with Rob might fit better elsewhere, where gossip and slander are more highly valued…
I think this discussion is quite illuminating. I think that a lot of Christians truly believe that there is two versions of virtue, the real, or Christian, and the fake, or non-Christian.
So when a non-Christian is “compassionate” or “kind” or “honest” it’s really something else in disguise. “Compassion” isn’t really compassion, it must be something like a pagan ritual in disguise.
And the explanation for this view, of course, is total depravity. The interesting question, though, is whether that doctrine has the effect of dulling Christians’ capacity for, ironically enough, discernment.
I think I’ve asked this question before, to no satisfactory answer, but I’m still interested in knowing whether God cares or even rejoices when non-Christians change for the “better.”
When non-Christians stop abusing alcohol, abusing their kids, or beating their spouses, are those moments of compassion, or just moments of “compassion?” If a man stops beating his kid, is that just another pagan ritual?
M.G. – the kingdom of God, as taught by Jesus, exists anywhere and any time that things are as God would have them be. If a man stops beating his kid, there should be rejoicing in the kingdom – regardless of the salvatory state of the man. If a non-Christian woman chooses not to abort a child, it’s not a pagan ritual, but a victory in the kingdom. In either case, is there still possibility of hope or tragedy? Certainly, but in either case there is just a little bit less hell on earth…
To go a little bit more philosophical, M.G. –
In the Hebrew mind, a person’s thoughts and beliefs follow his or her actions. In the Western mind, right actions proceed from right thoughts. In many ways, the failure of the church to navigate this shift in thinking – more radical than modern/postmodern – has led us to where we are – where compassion (if performed by the ‘wrong’ person) can be a pagan ritual, and action is secondary to orthodoxy…
seriously, this Rob Bell Is The Anti-Christ obsession is a little bit unhinged, peeps.
Jesus got bigger fish to fry, and you should, too.
I live 2 blocks from Priscilla Presley’s Church of Scientology.
never seen a soul in there…
Amy,
That would be fine with me. IR they accurately did and gave research as opposed to the stuff they do about the people they spend most their time slandering.
I have and still ask for “proof” of all the accusations, and except maybe one person, which still they miss the finer points he makes I know not of one emergent that is a “Universalist” or that denies the Lake of Fire as eternal and an assortment of other accusations. Instead I hear over and over the same misrepresentations of these people.
I read one guy who did a review on “the Barbarian Way” in which he was offended over the phrase “civilized religion” as he felt he was of the civilized religion… then as he review the book as one of the civilized religious people, told us why the book was wrong! I mean come on of course you will be offended if you choose to be on the side of the Pharisee and not Jesus!
(If one wants the link to this person I will give it, I am not sure he is mentally stable.)
Pastorboy takes one sentence completely out of context, then created a straw man and attacked it to prove Doug Pagitt is a Universalist… even after giving him a direct quote which Doug states he is not, John (PB) still claims he is… so fact seem to not even matter to these guys…
If you love conspiracies there is more evidence against Billy Graham as being in league with the anti Christ than the evidence against the people ODM’s spend their time against… and both of those are a bunch of crap. If you don’t believe me… look at the Internet for Billy Graham and he is one of the Illuminati or whatever… it all there so go ahead and believe all that too… also David Icke says there are reptilian aliens that are secretly running this planet… go and read it! It is on the Internet and very well researched! Or I even proved by using very good hermeneutics that we still should stone people today… I give a sound (as sound as some denominations reasoning) “biblical” teaching on it.
If one does not take time to look at and research properly then we do more harm than good. Yes, Buddhism is not true, lying about Buddha or Buddhist does harm also. We need not promote truth with lies… for what does light have to do with darkness or how can truth be spread by the tool of the father of lies?
To me it is very simple… but it seems very for you and others to grasp that as a truth even when God’s word stated, 1 Samuel 15:29 “Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind.” If we are to be like Christ then why do some lie about and against their brothers in Christ and show very little charity toward them? Do we not believe charity never fails? Have we forgotten knowledge puffs us up?
iggy
Back on track a bit here, I find it most interesting that as the media reports on the “Texas-polygamist-sex-cult” they seem to be going out of their way to not call the “Texas-polygamist-sex-cult” Mormons……interesting.
This is your reply to my questions about your understanding of Buddhism rites of compassion? You completely ignored my questions about Buddhism including asking whether or not you or aware of what I’m talking about when I talk about the pagan rites of Buddhism.
The issue of Rob Bell going to the Seeds of Compassion conference is much bigger than Rob Bell. Your article on scientology talks about “discernment.” I’ve seen no emphasis on discernment in considering just what it means for a pastor to be participating in a conference centering around the Dalai Lama and his teaching.
If Rob Bell was working together with scientologists to make the world a better place would discussion of scientology be off limits? Would it be wrong to ask a person who seemed in favor of the Bell-scientology event if they were truly aware of what the scientologists were doing spiritually in a particular area? Especially if they linked to an insightful article about the dangers of Buddhism after saying nothing about the dangers of scientology? Who is obsessed?
Why is it that you’re so interested in the dark secrets of scientology but continue to act as if I’m talking simply about acts of compassion by people of different religions? Surely your research skills are good enough to know that that ISN’T what I’m talking about.
MG, you’re completely missing my point, and instead responding to what Chris is trying to convince everyone that I’m saying. You said,
http://www.parkridgecenter.org/Page123.html This is a sample of the kind of learning to be compassionate under Buddhism that involves pagan rites that I’m talking about.
Iggy says
Just what lies are you referring to Iggy?
Amy,
If you have a question about Scientology, ask away – that’s what this thread’s about.
If you want to keep arguing that only Christians can show compassion – this isn’t the thread.
If you want to talk about Rob Bell – how about starting your own blog? This thread isn’t about Rob.
In this thread, I could care less about Buddhist teaching. If you’re so darn interested in it, start your own blog. This isn’t the thread…
A Mormon and a Buddhist walk into a bar, the Buddhist says…
Oh yea, sorry Chris.
Amy,
Your first post was brilliant! The response to it from others are very revealing.
Jeff
*responses
“Brilliant” as in rude and off-topic, or “Brilliant” as sarcasm?
As in – revealing that apparently Amy believes that the parable of the Good Samaritan is only good in theory, but not in practice?
Chris L: Probably splitting hairs here, but the parable of the Good Samaritan WAS a parable–didn’t really happen. Maybe that gets us off the hook? (It was/is a good story though.)
Please tell me this is a joke…
Keith – I goota go with Phil here, the Good Samaritan was a real story. His wife, Goody, was very supportive and his children, Better and Best, turned out to be great kids!
I actually missed your point.
Chris,
If you discover that the good Samaritan was doing visualization and getting himself into states of altered consciousness to strengthen his compassion AND find a yet-undiscovered story about how the disciples held conferences with said Samaritan to learn about compassion, then I’ll listen.
Off-topic? That depends if you consider every post that is written as standing in complete isolation from other posts. And if every post is in isolation, then I suggest that you stop people from making remarks about ODM’s motivations and personal lives entirely unrelated to whichever post they are writing on. For example Nathan’s last much-discussed comment.
Consider that my remark, though indeed sarcastic, offered you an opportunity to address whether or not you really think Buddhism is something to be wary of and stay away from. I could have simply assumed the worst and said something like “Chris is a jerk who doesn’t think there’s any danger in Buddhism.”
Except that I don’t recall ever in my life calling someone a jerk, so I doubt I would.
But your non-answers have indeed left me wondering about what you really think.
Amy –
What part of “this post isn’t remotely about Buddhism or Rob Bell” do you not understand? Why should I reward your boorish and rude behavior?
Frankly I don’t care what you think I believe, as you’ve already proven you assume the worst about most everyone…
Chris,
I was responding to comments left since yesterday. Good Samaritan points – made by you. Off topic comments designated as rude and/or sarcastic- made by you. What kind of moderator expects to throw out ideas basically slamming someone who is commenting and then expect no response? An attitude of Shhhh . . . I need to be quite and not respond to Chris’s latest comments because he is mad . . . is simply appeasement . . .
Residue of previously off-topic comments made on another post by Matt about me acting like a jerk seemed to fit well into the discussion.
Back to the Scientology discussion – if someone else (whose opinion you do care about and whom you like because they mostly agree with you) had suggested that an Interspiritual dialogue- (dialogue, not debate, no remarks expressing major differences of belief; with the aim of working together towards a common goal ) with Scientologists would be a good idea, would you have agreed with them? Why or why not?
In short, if you really think that Interspiritual Dialogue with other religions is a good idea why did my comment even bother you and Tim so much? WHY?
Some questions that could be asked in preparation for such a conference:
What goals should Christians be working together with Scientologists on?
Who is the equivalent of the Dalai Lama in their world?
What pastors should be invited to speak?
Which city’s schoolchildren would most benefit from this event?
How can we keep the ODM’s from overreacting?
OK – this is a disconnect that needs to be sent to the taxidernist, stuffed, and then mounted. Is this a one way mirrored thread in which neither can see the other. Amy, Chris is not addressing your questions because they are not fore this thread. Save them, believe me the time will come.
I hope that helps. Shweeeew!
Amy,
It seems you would like to live in a hypothetical world of your making. I could come up with all sorts of hypothetical situations to fit my agenda, but would good does it serve?
When the Scientolists start inviting Christians to speak at events, then maybe you would maybe be talking about something close to reality. As of now, you’re just making up stuff.
Thank you, Phil.
Grace and Peace…
Amy,
As far as your link, I agree, man it was filled with violence and mayhem in the streets. Those Tibetan monks are so vicious and mean. The Chinese should really crack down on the unarmed monks and shoot them where they are. In fact they should also claim things like the monks who teach compassion and non violence have weapon caches (has that been verified?) We should not boycott the Olympics as that IS the only compassionate thing happening today.
iggy (with only a hint of sarcasm… and I know you will ask for my proof but be warned, the pictures I saw are hard enough to see let alone link to them. but if you like brutally beaten bodies with bullet holes in them here you go)
If Scientologists were hosting an interfaith Hungry Hungry Hippos tournament with proceeds going to benefit hippos that, honestly, aren’t that hungry hungry in the first place, should Christians work together with Scientologists to find a better use for all the money raised in the Hungry Hungry Hippos tournament, or would that be too lovey dovey and Jesus-Christish, and really, who’s the Dalai Lama equivalent in the Hungry Hungry Hippo world anyway, and do we really have to call him “Craig”?
I hear he has a list somewhere… Craig I mean…
iggy
A LIST OF HUNGRY HUNGRY HIPPOS, which obviously conflicts with another list you might have heard of, the Ten Commandments?!?!?!
So OBVIOUSLY we can’t talk to CRAIG, either!
nyah!
Phill Miller said: “Please tell me this is a joke…”
Of course it is…just like everything else I say around here (at least that’s the perception, I think.)