Ingrid is railing against a church again:
Belly up to the bar, pardner. They’re serving up a new kind of church in Sidney, Ohio. With the promise of pizza, wings, top regional bands, “rowdy fun”, and a short message, what’s not to like? I was about to remark satirically about mechanical bulls playing a role in the “worship”, but once again was outdone by reality. The article from WTOP News reports that mechanical bulls were the theme of the, uh, sermon which purportedly dealt with the issue of “getting along in life”.
Sounds pretty terrible, right?
Of course, what Ingrid leaves out is that these aren’t Sunday morning services.
You know Ingrid, this is getting ridiculous. If you’re really that desperate to drum up antagonism among the body of Christ I can send you a huge list of churches that get together for Saturday morning breakfasts, Wednesday night dinners, weekend trips to retreats, and other such shenanigans. In fact, I heard there was even one church that didn’t have worship services at all one day and instead spent all day hitting things with hammers.
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If she keeps acting like this, she’s totally going to have to sit alone at the lunch table in heaven.
Maybe she’ll spend her time finally understanding the meaning of “metaphors.”
*chuckle*
I’m one of the first to stand up against false teachings and questionable “methods”, but can someone tell me if they have heard the preacher or staff speak at this church with questionable doctrine. I read their doctrinal statement it it looks very sound, so…what’s the problem?
Their are two lessons my father told me a long time ago. Make sure you methods never conflict with the message of the Cross, and the second was, “Go ahead and offer free pizza and pony rides, and when they get there make sure to give them the gospel as their eating and riding…after all, the Lord gave out fish sandwhiches!”
Sometimes people find that “nickel in the spittoon.” LOL
“…these aren’t Sunday morning services.” Seriously, what difference does that make? If it had been a Sunday morning service, would your post have been any different? If so, how?
I was encouraged that the cowpokes were taking off for Mother’s Day, though.
How obtuse of you.
If you see no difference between having a Sunday morning service as described above, versus having a normal Sunday Morning service and an additional Sunday evening activity as described above then you really are an ODM.
They affirm the inerrancy of Scripture, and then there is this statement:
“God initiates this relationship and chooses us as daughters and sons, beginning our life-long journey of faith. God’s choice happens regardless of our age or our response.”
Gee, what in the world do you want??
They also include that a Christian must abstain from sin. How relevent. They adhere to Wesley, maybe that is why Mrs. Schlueter is offended. Of course when you don’t believe everyone can be saved, you can get saved first, criticize any evangelistic methods, and finally fall asleep listening to a Gregorian Chant being comforted by the fact that you don’t use any methods. And when you awaken in the morning, the day after they held a cowpoke evangelistic meeting (like Roy and Dale Evans used to), you can google another church in a town of 20,000 in some obscure county that is imperfectly attempting to reach sinners and “Bingo!”, another post.
Ahhhhh…what a life!
Church is silly. Goofy at one end of the spectrum, and overly serious at the other. It’s not supposed to be silly. Theoretically, it sounds wonderful. Maybe, in heaven one day, I’ll finally get to experience what church is really supposed to be like–an enormous group of people who love God and love each other no matter what! No cows and no grouches! I need that so, so, very much right now.
Do you know what miracle of Christ’s is included in every gospel? The feeding of the five thousand, where Jesus held an evangelistic meeting in a “Long John Silver” motif!
Well Merry you are not alone. I simply want to meet with fellow believers, discuss the faith and encourage one-another. But nooo, that’s too hard. There needs to be an order of service, someone to lead, and a Pastor (arbitrarily chosing that gift and ignoring the others). Then there needs to be an (unbiblical) tithe giving which is worship or you aren’t meeting God’s requirements.
How relevant of Him…
Parables about fishing…farming…and then…and THEN…He preaches a “message” (how you could even call it that…I mean there’s no Trinity, deity of Christ, justification, sanctification, etc etc), WHILE FEEDING PEOPLE FISH AND BREAD! Feeding people!? Pfff….
Joe
This why some theologies hate “methods”. Of course they have signs in front of their churches, and they have bulletins, and other accoutrements. Is inviting a lost couple out to dinner a method?
Joe – Luke says that Jesus spoke unto them of the kingdom of God, so His message had substance. And so should ours and after reading the beliefs of that church I believe they give the gospel.
Dave, actually tithing is quite biblical, it’s just that the New Testament seems to support giving not just 10% of our money, but as much as we can sacrifice out of our money, time, resources, and talents until everyone’s needs are met.
But yeah. Church is supposed to be a family of all Christians who bear each others burdens and love each other in the Lord unconditionally, not a structured hour long program on Sunday mornings or whenever. We’ve got a lot of work to do.
Tithing isn’t remotely biblical for a non-jew. Tithes were for Jews (they don’t do it anymore since there is no temple and no Levites). It was not 10% of everything – only the land. Fishermen didn’t tithe. It wasn’t on income, it was on increase and it wasn’t the first tenth either, it was the last tenth in the case of sheep not was it the best either, just what came out.
Of all the 613 Mitzvah why especially choose tithing to enforce when the Jews don’t even do it?
Tithes weren’t always about giving to the church either, they were often to eat with your family and strangers.
’cause it’s a real moneymaker when you want to put a new wing on the country-club side of the church.
Exactly, the almighty dollar. If enforcing tithing, the pastor should have no inheritance on earth and live off the sacrifices.
Ingrid needs to repent of trying to relevant by pointing out all the sin that she sees today. In fact, by using a “blog” and “radio talk shows” which are used mostly by “worldly” peoples talking and doing “worldly ” things she is by her own standard being like them is what she does.
Good grief… Romans 2 all over again…
iggy
oh, that’s just scraping the surface of “things Ingrid should repent for.”
It’s not really edifying to say “X person needs repent for Y reason”. Especially not in this public forum without having said that to her privately and telling us so.
Dave,
Read what I stated closer please… I stated she need repent for trying to be relevant… as we know being relevant is a sin in the ODM world… so as they are publicly calling others for their “sin”.
Mostly, I am calling her a hypocrite… as it where.
It is that her hypocrisy is out in public display and should be pointed out for the folly it is. Since no one of her “friends” care to do it, being one of “her” proclaimed enemies I will do it as I please… for Ingrid has set herself not only above the biblical standard but as the biblical standard. Mockery is justified for such foolery as she has usurped God.
iggy
Tim: Thanks for not answering my question and for the label (”obtuse”). AGAIN, what is the difference? What does the “time” have to do with how services are conducted or their content? I’m really asking. If this site is really what you claim it to be, then I would assume your desire would be to speak the truth.
I’ve never understood why my OWN church does things differently on Sunday AM vs PM. You seem to have the answer. I’d like to hear it.
Keith,
“It is better to think of church in the ale-house than to think of the ale-house in church.” – Martin Luther
Ponder on this a bit… then get back to me…
In this quote I think is your answer…
iggy
Did somebody say something about wings? I loves me some chicken wings, that’s for sure. That might be the one marketing ploy that will get me into your church…
Keith,
You really don’t see the difference between only hosting a community event, and having services and a community event on the same day, and why its a lie to pretend like a community event is the Sunday services when it clearly is not?
Keith,
It sounds like you might like the 3 PD Churches in town they have the SAME show…. errr I mean service, Saturday night, 3 times Sunday morning and then one later that night.
= )
iggy
Oh and the RCC basically has the same thing every week!
Maybe you would…. errr or maybe not. ; )
iggy
What I have a hard time with is the absolute lack of any edification that comes with repetitive and sarcastic posts like this. Why doesn’t Ingrid just create a program that inserts a random church into the following paragraph? Then she can concentrate on other things, or perhaps go on vacation.
They’re at it again in ___ Church! I swear you cannot make this stuff up. Come Lord Jesus, now, and take away the remnant! ____ in church? Have they no decency? You know what this means. In five years there’s going to be ____ in church, believe me now. The end is near.
Does anything really think posting the same sarcastic and shallow analysis does anything? It’s flat, pointless, bitter, and without any redeeming value.
Jesus expects better than this stuff. Where is insight, analysis, and, most important of all, wisdom? The ODMs have killed them. May Christ forgive us all.
M.G.
I agree. ____ seems to always say the same ____ about ____.
iggy
The way I see this is that the war will never be won by either side and the best you can do is show people what is happening.
ODM1 posts publicly on site that X church does Y activity. (not)ODM2 posts that they need to repent for Z behaviour. Both parties insistantly do the same behaviour except they each are quite sure they are right and using correct methods for determining so.
The response post while perhaps technically correct will not change the heart of the poster and only let eveyone but them realise this.
Keith -
I know of several churches that do something like this for a specific reason – their Sunday morning community meetings (services) are geared toward believers. They also hold meetings to which their community is invited, but which are primarily geared toward unbelievers. In some cases I am familiar with, this is specifically done to avoid the “seeker sensitive” pitfall of “dumbing down” preaching at church meetings.
I can think of at least two precedents, both involving Paul.
1) On Mars Hill, Paul addressed skeptics & unbelievers, in their own setting. He did the same in Ephesus in the Hall of Scholars. In neither case did he structure it as a meeting of believers.
2) Paul instructs Timothy not to neglect the public preaching of the Word. This goes to the Jewish tradition of synagogue, where the community met in the synagogue on Sabbath, but then they also had the kazan (custodian/steward/ruler) of the synagogue read Torah and answer questions outside the synagogue to those who were not Jewish. (In fact, because of Timothy’s questionable lineage as a mumzer, it is possible that this was how he learned scripture, since he may not have been allowed in synagogue).
Keith – there is a difference in a gathering designed for believers to worship and hear the word and fellowship, and unbelievers are welcomed as well. But then there are gatherings designed specifically to preach the gospel to the lost, and Tim was pointing out that since these gatherings were not on Sunday it reflected the evangelistic thrust of them.
I got his point right away.
Dave,
The difference is one side offers reconciliation while the first offers judgment and condemnation.
I offer reconciliation… with open arms and heart. Yet, reconciliation only comes through humility and the realization that one does not have some special grace above and beyond all the other sinners God sent Jesus to save. The same Grace that saved me saves Ingrid no matter how much she gloats over how my sin or others is worse.
iggy
Keith,
Read Pagan Christianity, and get back to me…
Seriously, hardly any of what we do in modern churches has any real Biblical support, but we just like to pretend it does. It doesn’t necessarily make a way of learning or teaching wrong just because we’ve adapted to a different cultural form, but we need to realize that we’re just kidding ourselves when hold up one of way of church as the “Biblical stanadard”.
A first century church meeting would actually probably have more resemblence to something like a Quaker meeting than a modern Protestant church service in many ways.
Keith…
Just wanted to say….
Love ya man!
iggy = )
Thank you all for the responses. Tim, you sorta answered my question with a question…I think…I’m not sure…anyway. I do see the difference in a worship service vs. building a Habitat for Humanity house. I don’t recall the church talking about the construction trades…
Now, could someone please tell me why we feel the need to have one service/event/gathering/meeting, etc for believers and one for non-believers?
Rick: the link Tim provided specifically stated the event/service was on “Sunday.”
Chris L: I sorta follow your logic, but wasn’t Paul preaching during the period of the early church? I know that God saved thousands on the day of Pentecoost (Acts 2;41) and apparently many more were added on a daily basis (Acts 2:47), but I don’t see that the believers outnumbered the non-believers at this point. I don’t read about “a church on every corner” at this point in Bible history. (I guess that’s why Timothy had to go to the synagogue, eh?)
Finally, what does Timothy’s being a mumbler have to do with anything. Is that the same as being a “low-talker?”
Clarification: “I don’t recall the [cowboy] church talking about the construction trades…
Keith – Paul on Mars Hill was for unbelievers. Paul in the gatherings in the Corinthian Church was for believers with some sensitivity toward unbeliever’s understandings. The trumpet must sound a certain sound or unbelievers will not understand. A little relevence there, I suggest.
When Peter went to the house of Cornelius he held an evangelistic meeting designed for these Gentile unbelievers. When he went to Jerusalem the believers gathered. There is a difference.
tim your dishonesty is showing again. i went to the link that you provided for country rock CHURCH and read the news piece written about this CHURCH and ingrid didn’t omit anything! this CHURCH advertises itself as a CHURCH and this CHURCH holds its CHURCH services on SUNDAY NIGHTS in a pub. like other CHURCHES its services has music and a message on SUNDAY NIGHTS.
your claim that this isn’t a CHURCH service because they don’t hold their services on sunday mornings is huge LIE.
here is what this CHURCH’s website says, “country rock CHURCH is gettin’ ready to ride. a new kind of CHURCH for real people wantin’ a real faith. starting SUNDAY april 20th”
so did you purposely omit this information in your post or do you need a remedial lesson in reading comprehension?
Keith – it seems you are correct, they are on Sundays however Sunday nights. So the believers can gather on Sunday mornings and the evangelistic services are at night. The point is evangelistic meetings should never replace the gathering of believers.
Yes, Simon, you are correct and Tim’s facts were misleading. However, when beginning a new church should we not seek to build it with new believers and not shopping sheep or a church split?
There doctrine seems very sound, and there cowboy motif may be a little theatrical but perhaps people will come to Christ. I would embrace this a million times before all the sex stuff.
Where did we ever get the idea that church had to be some sort of somber and depressing event? I mean, most “services” look more like a funeral service than a celebration.
Here’s the problem. Most Christians do not live a lifestyle of worship. They wander around life, disconnected from God. So, they have to put a more spiritual emphasis on two hours on Sunday to feel like they are really connected with God. The building, music, and atmosphere all become sacred. This all makes up for their lack of spirituality during the week… it’s all very superstitious and idol-icious.
See, if you worship all week long, then Sundays become more of a celebration than a time to be stoic (because somehow being stoic is more spiritual than laughter). Our gatherings at Mosaic look alot more like a party than a death march. We want people to know that we are alive and vibrant and connected to a living God.
Oh, and we have some decent talks along the way
mosaic.org/podcast.
Ok people, when I updated my WP program I lost my Greek keys. I don’t have time to figure out how to reinstall them. Who knows a webpage where I can copy and paste me some Greek words? I’m working on a paper on James 5:13-18 and have only English illiterations in my paper right now.
HELP!!!
nathan,
Very true…and very sad as well.
The truth is that we have created an environment where a lot people experience faith vicariously through their pastors. Pastors are the professional Christians, anyway, so they know how to do it better.
The whole thing goes back to seeing people, buildings, and days as holier than others. It takes away the power of the Incarnation.
Simon – if you actually DIG and do just a little bit of *ahem* research, you’ll find that this CHURCH is actually an outreach ministry of Sidney First United Methodist Church. A phone call will confirm it, if you’d like, as well. No lies, though thanks for playing “try to catch your brother in a lie”… better luck next time.
Keith,
mumzer – a bastard child. A child of mixed (read: half-Jewish, unwed) heritage. Depending on how closely the local synagogue followed the Torah and accepted teachings of Judaism, mumzers weren’t allowed to worship in synagogue, as they were “cursed to the tenth generation”. Timothy’s father was a Greek unbeliever and his mother was Jewish. So, by most conservative-to-moderate standards of synagogue, Timothy’s instruction in the word would have had to have been during the public reading of Torah and not in synagogue. A number of scholars take this view of Timothy, based upon Paul’s writing to him and Paul’s taking him to the Temple to be circumcised.
Joe: I’m not sure what you’re looking for but Windows Character map has the Greek alphabet.
Programs > Accessories > System Tools > Character Map
Chris L: I knew what it was, but you gotta start listening to your wife’s advice and dumb it down a little! 8^)>
No extra points for the “Seinfeld” tie-in?!
Totally missed the “Seinfeld” reference – I watched it occasionally, but wasn’t a die-hard fan, so I’m not as attuned to it as I am to some other parts of pop-culture…
Chris L: re: Timothy’s instruction, didn’t Paul commend Timothy’s instruction to his mother and grandmother? I always read it that they were the ones responsible for his OT upbringing.
Time –
He’s waiting in the wings
He speaks of senseless things
His script is you and me boys
David Bowie – theologian.
Yes – this would have been orally, as well, since they wouldn’t be able to whip out one of the 5 copies of the Bible lying around their house. Since women were primarily taught the Torah and the Psalms, Timothy would have needed access to the remainder of the Tanakh, which would likely have come from the local synagogue.
I don’t have all of the references with me, but one of the ones I remember was Paul’s instruction to Timothy “Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching.” as demonstrating a little bit of Paul’s dry humor – kind of like Peyton Manning’s father writing to him to remember to watch game films of his opponents.
LOL, here’s more building worship from Ingrid.
I think this quote proves Nathan’s point:
Never mind that the article she points to says nothing like “nothing else is needed”. What buffoonery…
Also nevermind the fact that service IS worship, as per a little friend i like to call JESUS.
what’s funny is that i can’t find ANY worship command anywhere in the Bible that says “stay home and bellyache like Ingrid.”
Joe: Did you get your “Greek problem” fixed?
Hey Keith,
I’m printing the final draft now. 15 pages of wonderful (?) writing on James 5:13-18. I hope I get an A.
Thanks for asking
Ingrid has an update on the post 10:52 from Phil:
“Why don’t these people get up on Saturday and give their day away to serve others and then come on Sunday morning to worship the Lord of Hosts?”
Our church has a “Saturday serve”. Ingrid has a point. It is hard to get people on Saturdays, sometimes, because they (we all) are so overcommitted that we don’t make the time to serve others the way we probably should. I don’t agree with the ferociousness of her attack, and I don’t see a problem with the idea as a once in a GREAT while thing. I can see that it might get people involved and “hooked” that might not otherwise give outreach and service a try. There are pros and cons on both sides.
I personally would miss the actual worship service (music & communion, especially) if our church canceled it.
Zan,
Ingrid is still operating under the assumption that some days are holy and others aren’t.
I’ve often wondered why we make such a big deal about Sunday services. So much energy goes into having a service that most people don’t even think about. My dad’s a pastor, so pretty much every weekend growing up was consumed by either planning or preparing something for the Sunday service. Even in a small church, there’s a lot that goes into a service.
It’s ironic to me that the supposed “day of rest” is really anything but in most churches. I’m not just talking about mega-churches, either.
We should not forsake the assembling of ourselves together. But the New Testment commands no specific day, every day belongs to the Lord.
Actually, I can’t do any work on Saturdays. The Moses thing…
Rick,
I don’t want to “forsake assembling ourselves”. I just don’t think it has to be in the form that it’s predominantly done. Actually, I thinking the way we do it is actually in many ways preventing a real sense of community to develop in churches. I mean how do you form a relationship with someone by sitting quietly next to them for an hour or so every week?
I don’t care which day. Traditionally (for our country and generation) it has been on Sunday, therefore there are fewer obligations for that day, or at least ones that I can take myself out of. That is all.
As for the energy, there is something beautiful about being able to use the talents you have for the corporate worship service. Not self-focused, mind you, but a sense of gratefulness that I am given that opportunity. I appreciate, and I believe that, at least for our church, many people appreciate the work that goes into it. I feel blessed to be a part of helping others lift up their voices to our God or prayerfully have time during communion. It is my gift to others, and in doing so, my gift to God. It is my act of service.
“I mean how do you form a relationship with someone by sitting quietly next to them for an hour or so every week?”
Ask him over for lunch.
You know what? That spoke to me to talk to people more at lunch time. I don’t really have an excuse to spend my lunch surfing the ‘net or going for a drive.