I have good news Jesus Christ is alive now and forevermore the crucified one has risen from the grave and has ascended to the right hand of God and is the sovereign king and Lord of all who live and who have ever lived He is worthy of our praise and we are celebrating the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, welcome to Granger Community Church.


These were the words that followed the game of Simon
that Granger Community Church played, and if the anonymous editor had spent ten minutes in research he (or she) would have avoided slandering their brothers and sisters at that church.

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This entry was posted on Thursday, May 1st, 2008 at 12:01 pm and is filed under Editor, ODM Writers. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
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31 Comments(+Add)

1   Jeff, Sterling Heights MI    
May 1st, 2008 at 12:06 pm

A few corrections to the quote

“I have good news Jesus Chris is alive now and forevermore the crucified one has risen from teh grave and has ascended to the right hand of God and is the sovereign king and Lord of all who live and who have ever lived He is worthy of our praise and we are celebrating the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, welcome to Granger Community Church.”

2   Tim Reed, Owosso MI    http://churchvoices.com
May 1st, 2008 at 12:10 pm

Thanks Jeff, transcribing obviously isn’t my strong suit.

3   Timothy Bell    http://catmandudespeaks.blogspot.com/
May 1st, 2008 at 12:28 pm

Are you saying that because they said those words after the game of Simon that it justified the Simon game itself? What was the point of the game for the Easter message?

4   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 1st, 2008 at 12:39 pm

On Easter Sunday? Goofy at best. We used to call a night with games and lights with a Bible message at the end “evangelism”, not the gathering of saints. Is there ANYTHING that would be innappropriate at a Sunday gathering?

The statement was great, however.

5   Kevin I    
May 1st, 2008 at 12:43 pm

Sorry, but Ressurrection Sunday is a celebration, and fun at a celebration isn’t out of place at all. As long as Jesus our Risen Lord is preached on Ressurrection Sunday, and there is time for worship to praise the Risen Lord and this is the focus, you can add in all the non-sinful fun you want in my opinion.

Simon = Fun
Celebration = Fun
Ressurrection Sunday = Celebration.

I fail to see the problem here.

6   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
May 1st, 2008 at 1:00 pm

“if the anonymous editor had spent ten minutes in research he (or she) would have avoided slandering their brothers and sisters at that church.”

You mean like you just did when you imply that “he (or she)” did not spend more than “ten minutes in research.” How do you know they didn’t? Answer: You don’t.

This is actually a personal attack on said person(s) integrity, and to use one of CRN.(Mis)Info’s favorite misapplied words, it is “slander.”

Grace and peace… O, and be ye blessed…

7   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
May 1st, 2008 at 1:21 pm

Part of the issue is that the church is so influenced by the idea that church services are supposed to be somber, serious things, that we really create an idol out of our traditions. The fact is that most gatherings in the NT church would have been more a celebratory atmosphere. Serious, somber and repetitive ceremonies were the stuff of their pagan neighbors.

So next time you’re ready to fall asleep during the pastor’s hour long oratorial on the finer points of election, blame the pagans.

8   Jerry Hillyer    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
May 1st, 2008 at 1:54 pm

Tim,

You know, I was watching that clip and I have to confess that I cannot possibly imagine what it has to do with anything. It certainly doesn’t appeal to me in any way and I would likely not emply such tactics or devices in my own garden–the one Christ has called me to tend to. My older, Western Reserve (emphasis on ‘Reserve’) folks wouldn’t get it. Then I thought, maybe it was just for fun? Maybe in context it has a point after all.

Then I thought some more and came to the conclusion that it is one clip out of an, obviously, larger context. In other words, I’m sure those Christians worship for longer than 4 minutes on Resurrection Sunday. Right? Funny what context does to an overall point of view.

Then I thought a little more and remembered the Scripture that says: “Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.” Some lunatic wrote that in Romans and I cannot imagine that those words are culturally relevant to us who have it all worked out into a nice, neat system. Silly us.

I just finished writing my final paper for Doctrine of Grace taught by Dr Cottrell. It was a reflection paper on what grace taught me or something like that. As I reflected I was suddenly overwhelmed by what I had really learned. Not only has God’s grace freed me from judgment, it has freed me from being judgmental. No one has to live up to my standards and the only opinion that matters, in the short and long run, is Christ’s. Do you know how I learned this? Not from reading books or even Scripture, but from watching Dr Cottrell in the classroom. Let me explain.

In the classroom there were represented just about every possible denomination imaginable: Apostolic holiness, Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, Restoration, Reformed, Presby, and Roman Catholic. There were liberals and conservatives. Pentecostal and not. There were men and womem; preachers and youth ministers; black and white; missionaries and counseling students. There were female ministers. And you know what? Dr Cottrell never once, in 36 hours of classroom instruction, condemned a single one of them to hell or even hinted that he had it ‘all right’. He challenged their theology implicitly and explicitly; yes. But never once did he suggest that anyone, even the Roman Catholic, was bound to hell because of methodology, doctrine, sex, or whether or not they agreed with all things Stone-Campbell.

I have read many of his books, you may have too, and thus you know as well as I do that there is no one on the planet as theologically conservative as he. And yet, not a single syllable about anyone with a different point of view going to hell or even being ‘wrong’ or apostate or an abomination or under judgment. Not a syllable.

What mattered in that class was simply grace. I cannot begin to tell you how his character in that class, dealing with so much diversity, impacted how and what I learned, and how I thus put it into practice.

I feel sorry for these self-appointed judges. I don’t think they have any idea that with each passing judgment they make themselves more children of hell. I don’t think they for a minute have any idea how many non-believers they turn off to Christ because of their antics and hatred. I don’t think they have a shred of theological understanding in their hearts. I don’t think they care. And there is certainly not an ounce of love in them. Jesus said ‘by your love for one another will the world know you are my disciples.’

I have often wondered whose disciples we show ourselves to be when we spew such hatred at one another?

God have mercy on us all.
your friend in Christ,
jerry

9   Jerry Hillyer    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
May 1st, 2008 at 2:13 pm

Tim,

I made a rather long reply, clicked submit, and it sort of vanished. I hope someone can find it but if not I will repost it later.

jerry

10   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
May 1st, 2008 at 2:17 pm

Jerry,
I rescued it from the mean ol’ spam filter.

I don’t know what’s up with that thing lately.

It’s kind of ironic that your whole post on passing judgement was caught by it, though…

11   Jerry Hillyer    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
May 1st, 2008 at 2:26 pm

I love irony.

And sarcasm.

12   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 1st, 2008 at 2:38 pm

“I feel sorry for these self-appointed judges. I don’t think they have any idea that with each passing judgment they make themselves more children of hell. I don’t think they for a minute have any idea how many non-believers they turn off to Christ because of their antics and hatred. I don’t think they have a shred of theological understanding in their hearts. I don’t think they care. And there is certainly not an ounce of love in them. Jesus said ‘by your love for one another will the world know you are my disciples.’ ”

Jerry, I agree. (except for the children of hell part – I’m not sure what you meant). But I would never search for something like that or even post it, I mean let’s face it Mrs. Schlueter has beaten that horse into powder (where is Chris L’s dead horse when you need it). How many more examples do we need.

However, you can understand someone like me saying it is goofy, right? I did not say apostate, I even said the statement was great. But you are reasonable enogh to know some reasonable Christians would not be attracted to that sort of thing.

Right?

13   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 1st, 2008 at 2:43 pm

BTW Tim – I just saw a commercial about beer where the guy ends up in a clean looking bar and asks where he is and the bar tender says “Beer Heaven”. Now you know how I hate to pick on sinners, so you should get out in front of this because it will become an ODM post somewhere!

It’s called preemptive posting! (My copyright) :)

14   Tim Reed, Owosso MI    http://churchvoices.com
May 1st, 2008 at 3:04 pm

Rick,
Beer heaven is redundant.

15   Christian P    http://www.churchvoices.com
May 1st, 2008 at 3:17 pm

No it’s not. Not all beers are created equal, so I hear.

Is Beer Heaven where beers go when they die?

16   Jerry Hillyer    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
May 1st, 2008 at 3:20 pm

Rick,

Here’s what I mean:

42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

That’s all I mean. I’m not passing judgment on them as people, but I am passing judgment on their actions. My point is this: If love demonstrates our belongingness to Jesus then the opposite of love, hate, demonstrates our belongingness to the enemy.

Riddle me this, do you think at some point hate has to give way? Do you think that hatred and judgment will ultimately triumph over love? Do you think that acting on these power trips will bring glory to God? None of them are submitted to the Word of God when they use the Word of God as their personal light-sabers. All they are concerned with is their own rightness.

I’m not sure what the dead horse thing means. Sorry. I’m sorry if my abrasive words are offensive, and while I am big, huge fan of grace, spades are still spades. (Since we are using metaphors now.)

jerry

17   Jerry Hillyer    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
May 1st, 2008 at 3:21 pm

you realize that by even talking about beer you are setting yourselves up for severe judgment. right?

18   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 1st, 2008 at 3:26 pm

Jerry – Thanks. I was agreeing with much of your comment but there are some concerns that people like me have without becoming obnoxious and self righteous. I usually attempt to hide my self righteousness because I’m too self righteous to let people think I’m self righteous! :)

19   Christian P    http://www.churchvoices.com
May 1st, 2008 at 3:31 pm

Jerry, I hope that was sarcasm.

I’m a teetotaler who likes to talk about alcohol.

20   Jerry Hillyer    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
May 1st, 2008 at 3:42 pm

I love irony.

And sarcasm.

21   Jerry Hillyer    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
May 1st, 2008 at 3:42 pm

Shouldn’t I be working on a sermon? Or sending out more resumes?

22   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
May 1st, 2008 at 3:45 pm

Jerry,
Didn’t you know that it’s not passing judgement when you’re right? It’s called “calling a spade a spade” or “gently correcting”. That’s the ODM trump card. When you’re never wrong about anything, you don’t have to worry about passing judgement.

When Jesus was warning about not judging other, he was really warning the nasty Pharisees, not us. There’s no way we could be making the same mistake as the Pharisees. We’re way beyond that.

/sarcasm

23   Tim Reed, Owosso MI    http://churchvoices.com
May 1st, 2008 at 3:56 pm

Ken,
I apologize for assuming that watching 10 minutes of video would take the anonymous editor 10 minutes to watch.

I will also take your quibbling with the minor details of this post as an endorsement of the substance. Thank you for you indirect honesty.

24   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
May 1st, 2008 at 4:00 pm

Ken,
Since we’re talking about being dishonest, I thought you said you weren’t coming back anymore. I know, I know – we’re just so irresistible.

25   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 1st, 2008 at 4:47 pm

Are you saying that because they said those words after the game of Simon that it justified the Simon game itself? What was the point of the game for the Easter message?

Well if people only come to church on Easter and Christmas, make if fun… I thought it was fun and a good twist on the old candle light service ; )

I just wonder why fun is wrong in a service?

There is a passage where the disciples are picking wheat and rubbing it in their hands on the sabbath. I always envisioned it as they were just walking along having fun and grabbed a handful as they walked and did this. The “religious” people saw it and claimed they were working…

That is like claiming if I picked up some grass and make a whistle out of it being work! LOL!

I think Jesus had fun… most often in his answers back to the religious who judged them.

I bet that service had at least 40 visitors… while Ken’s church had a few “disciples”. Not a cut toward Ken, but at least at Granger more had a chance to hear the word of Christ and respond.

blessings,
iggy

26   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 1st, 2008 at 5:08 pm

Ken,

This is actually a personal attack on said person(s) integrity, and to use one of CRN.(Mis)Info’s favorite misapplied words, it is “slander.”

If one leaves out some facts to make the person seem to be what they are not, is that not slander? Is that not what you (or the editor) did?

It seems you need look up the word and see that you indeed do slander people not in what you say, but most often in what you leave out which gives a different impression of what really happened.

In fact that does speak volumes of your own integrity.

iggy

27   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 1st, 2008 at 5:21 pm

I actually think that the words CRN used to describe the service were tepid compared to some others. using that light game thing on Easter Sunday or even any Sunday is Goofy, who by the way is also available for services! :)

28   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 1st, 2008 at 5:50 pm

Tim,

I expect a full retraction from you concerning the “ten minutes”. Apparently Ken took eleven minutes… so apologize.

iggy

29   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
May 2nd, 2008 at 6:50 am

A little late to the conversation. I haven’t listened to the sermon yet from Granger but I did watch the video. BTW it was only 4 minutes. Anyway the song they were sampling was Kanye West “Stronger”. The chorus says:

N-n-now th-that that don’t kill me
Can only make me stronger
I need you to hurry up now
Cause I can’t wait much longer
I know I got to be right now
Cause I can’t get much wronger

Man I been waitin’ all night now
That’s how long I’ve been on ya

It is completely plausible that they used (again haven’t listened to the sermon) that section of the song to illustrate our need for Christ and his victory over death.

Of course the whole song from Kanye is about getting together with a girl and not God. But heck I used the song once for a chapel at a Christian high school. I guess I’m a heretic also. Darn it!

30   Neil    
May 3rd, 2008 at 11:04 am

OK – I missed the point of the song. And maybe I’d feel a bit odd haivng this in a worship service.

That said, just because I don’t understand it doesn’t mean I would condem it either.

I guess if the editor had included some reasoning (biblical or otherwise) why this should be considered wrong… that would have helped.

Neil

31   Christian P    http://www.churchvoices.com
May 4th, 2008 at 9:11 pm

It’s assumed (I assume) by the editor that you think the way they think (or you should) and therefore no explanation is needed. So if you don’t think they way they think (i.e. – totally agree with them) you are apostate.