SO much digital ink seems to be spilled these days, sniffing about how the church is whoring itself out by ‘looking like the world’. While I agree with this sentiment on a number of levels, it seems that the targeted examples of ‘worldliness’ are merely personal preferences, while the actual examples of worldliness move on, virtually unchallenged.
Examples of supposed ‘worldliness’:
- Mars Hill Church (Seattle) holds a “Red Hot Bash” for New Years Eve, which serves a champagne toast at midnight.
- Saddleback Church holds a “Glitz and Glamor” night for singles in the church
- Christians hold a dance festival, one weekend in Michigan
- Pastors use examples in their sermons from current movies, like Spiderman
- Christians are involved in movies, popular music or other popular artistic ventures
- Christians attend movies or watch TV shows that other Christians disapprove of
While this isn’t to suggest that poor decisions may (or may not) have been involved with any of these examples, but all of these – and most usages of the word “worldly” by the fundamentalist and discernmentalist crowds – are not examples of “worldliness”, at least as it is defined by Jesus, who they claim to be their standard.
What is Worldly?
From the Gospel of John:
Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?”
“Is that your own idea,” Jesus asked, “or did others talk to you about me?”
“Am I a Jew?” Pilate replied. “It was your people and your chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?”
Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place.”
“You are a king, then!” said Pilate.
Jesus answered, “You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”“What is truth?” Pilate asked.
And, from John’s first epistle:
Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world.
In these instances and others, the Greek word John uses for world – Kosmos – is literally translated ’system’, and is a description of socio-political order, not cultural practice (which was as diverse on a city-by-city basis in Jesus’ day as we are country-by-country today). Had he meant the physical world, he would have used ge – the land. Kosmos is a Greek word which describes the systems by which things work. Jesus’ kingdom is not like the systems of this world, where physical strength, wealth, lust, greed, charisma and politics drive and rule. Rather, it is where things are as God would have them be , where the last are first, where leading is serving, and where the poor, the widow and the stranger are cared for – a completely different system. Kosmos is cross-cultural and timeless – and in this regard we are little different than the Roman Imperial system.
If we want to see how the American church has become worldly, some examples might be:
- The “Health and Wealth Gospel”, which perverts the true Gospel out of a desire for physical comfort
- Churches that plow a lion’s share of their money into buildings and physical things while ignoring the oppressed in their own communities
- Churches that prostitute themselves to political parties (both Democrat and Republican), where messages are thinly veiled political diatribes – whether it’s “God damn America!” or “God’s Own Party”
- Churches that exist as social clubs with their own pecking orders and insular mindsets, who would likely reject Jesus, were he alive, because “the blood and dirt on his feet might stain the carpet”
- Christians who use externalities of the kosmos, like wealth, power, charisma, or physical beauty (or lack thereof) to adulate or judge others
- Christians who see coercion and force as primary means of leadership and for whom humility and admission of error are foreign concepts
To love the world is to buy into its systems and means, not whether or not you own an iPod or whether you chose to quote Spurgeon or Spiderman.
The Difference
The difference between what is worldly (according to Jesus use of the word) and what gets erroneously classified as “worldly” (primarily by, but not limited to, fundamentalism and discernmentalism) is this: In the former, Jesus is basing his classification on the overall theme of the Hebrew Scriptures – God’s Word – and the world-view projected by it: Where the greatest in the kingdom are the ‘least of these’, where the poor, the sick, the widows, the orphans, the alien, the oppressed and the imprisoned are cared for and where leadership is service and service is sacrifice. In the latter definition of “worldly”, the definition is completely up to the individual making the judgment, and is solely up to the cultural preferences and convictions of that individual (and usually is primarily based on externals – dress, speech, technology, form, etc.).
One is based upon cross-cultural absolutes and the other is subject to cultural preferences and personal convictions.
One is based upon the reasons for which Jesus was nailed to a cross and the other is based upon nailing others to crosses of your own making.
One is challenging to live and the other is living to challenge.
One involves living a life of sacrifice and the other involves living a life of sanctimony.
Which are you called to?
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
42 Comments(+Add)
Some good and valid points, Chris. Really.
However, that dog is really worldly!
Chris,
THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU.
You really just need to re-post this every couple of weeks. I know we’ve written on this in the past and even had a podcast on it.
I agree.
Post this.
Again and again and again.
“Churches that prostitute themselves to political parties (both Democrat and Republican)”
Ah ha! I knew it! I had my suspicions all along!
Rick,
How is it you seem to be the first to post on every new thread?
Chris,
I agree with you at a number of points. Let me, for the sake of the argument, play aardvark’s advocate for a mere moment.
Do you think that a case can be built, from the Scripture, that the Church is to be concerned about ‘the oppressed in their own community’? That is, do you think that the New Testament church, written about in the book of Acts and the letters and the Revelation, were commanded to be ‘concerned about the oppressed in their own community’ in the general sense of your phrase? Or, does the NT show a group of people who took care of themselves and their own poor, neglected, fatherless, and widows?
IF you believe it can, how do you think this is to be done? When I read the NT (and the OT for that matter) I read about a group of people who were persecuted and despised and on more than one occassion, kicked out of the towns where they were (be it Paul or Christians in general). What I wonder is, how much social justice could the church, persecuted as it was, actually be involved in when they had to spend such a significant amount of time, energy, and resources defending their very existence? Even when Paul collected and offering for the famine struck people in Jerusalem it was for the Jerusalem saints in particular not the city in general.
I realize that the so-called ‘modern church’ is not faced with nearly the sort of persecution that the ‘NT Church’ was, and I agree that money would be better spent on helping others as opposed to our own building projects and self-glorification, but still I wonder just where Jesus’ command to ‘love one another’ and the parable of the good samaritan cross paths. Thanks for letting me be the advocate here.
I finished reading Mark Labberton’s book The Dangerous Act of Worship a couple of weeks ago and the problem is that to make his case he had to re-define worship to mean ’social justice.’ I just wonder if this is really what the church is called to do and be in this world.
Thanks. Your friend and fellow sojourner,
jerry
I have been to every one of those churches. I also know some Christians who would remove Jesus because His feet were dirty and bloody and he would mess up the carpet.
( Christians who use externalities of the kosmos, like wealth, power, charisma, or physical beauty (or lack thereof) to adulate or judge others) Hmmm this sounds very familiar from a previous article by someone else.
Some excellent points here. Thank you for this.
“How is it you seem to be the first to post on every new thread?”
Clairvoyant. I can read Chris’s mind. See Spot run, easy really.
My health keeps me chained to this desk from which I accomplish many tasks. So I guess I see it pop up first? As you can see these guys are very touchy about this subject.
Just thinking about this a little more…
Wouldn’t “worldly” be classified as mimicking whatever the the “world” does and integrating it in the church to achieve the same results?
I’m thinking of things like “church tailgating” parties and things like that… “Hey, these things work – let’s use them and slap a Jesus label on it.”
I confess I don’t know a lot about the PDL movement, but the fact that it works for ANY religious denomination or faith (ie: Jews, etc) probably demonstrates its worldly foundation, no?
The reason I bring this up is because in Corinthians, Paul’s major challenge with the church was that they had replaced the simplicity that it is in Christ and the power of His word with all sorts of gimmicks that seemed to get results on the surface.
Chris L.,
At the risk of joining the “Amen Chorus” — I was pondering a similar post on how “worldly” is one of the most abused words in the ODM vocabulary.
Neil
Paul,
The interesting thing is that when Paul wrote those letters, he was writing in the rhetorical style of other literature of that time period. He basically took a style of communication that people were familiar with, and he used it for his purposes.
The ODMs probably would accuse him of being “worldly”…
Paul: Wouldn’t “worldly” be classified as mimicking whatever the the “world” does and integrating it in the church to achieve the same results?
RA: Let’s take this out to it’s logical conclusion. Start stripping everything away from churches that in any way copies the world in order to achieve results:
- air conditioning
- modern instruments (including the organ, which is fairly modern from a historical perspective)
- ANY and all church buildings, since the first century church met in homes and catacombs (take your choice)
- modern outreach tools such as printed pamphlets, TV, radio, taped sermons, and especially the Internet (goodbye ODMs). Get out your walking shows and start spreading the gospel via traveling from town to town (and no cars either, the disciples walked).
I think my point is clear. What we see happening are self-righteous, pious, holier-than-thou Pharisees picking and choosing what THEY find acceptable, and what THEY find as worldly. Then, they call “biblical” everone who agrees with them, and label as unbiblical anyone who disagrees with them.
I can only imagine what the Amish might say about how “worldly” the ODMS and assorted other Christians are who use telephones, cars, the Internet, and goodness, wear colors other than black. I’d love to Ingrid Schleuter in a room full of Amish who are reading her the riot act about how carnal and worldly she is based on the color of her blouse and the fact that she drives a car. Now THAT would make good you tube video.
PAUL: I’m thinking of things like “church tailgating” parties I’m thinking of things like “church tailgating” parties and things like that…
RA: I’m sorry. I’, missing something here – and exactly WHAT’S wrong with a church tailgating party? Ever have a BBQ at your home with friends from church? Okay, now stick it on the back of a bunch of cars/trucks and move it to a parking lot. That’s worldly?
__________
PAUL: “Hey, these things work – let’s use them and slap a Jesus label on it.”
RA: Anything I do in life that is not sinful, and honors God through my participation – work, play, rest, worship, entertainment, driving around town — it ALL has a Jesus label on it because I am a Christian.
“What we see happening are self-righteous, pious, holier-than-thou Pharisees picking and choosing what THEY find acceptable, and what THEY find as worldly.”
That is discernemnt, my friend, about which you seem clueless. Satan continues to sift you as wheat but I am praying!
I am compiling an unabridged list of do’s and don’t’s and I will gladly give out copies for a nominal fee.
RICK: That is discernemnt, my friend, about which you seem clueless. Satan continues to sift you as wheat but I am praying!
RA: My goodness, I hope that’s another joke.
Jerry,
I only have a minute right now, but I’ll look more into this:
One specific example comes to mind – the church in Ephesus. Ephesus, for many reasons, was the center of the Roman slave-trade. As the center for worship of Artemis/Diana (the goddess of fertility), women came to Ephesus to be ’saved in childbirth’ by Artemis/Diana (some reports suggest that 33% of female deaths in the Roman Empire occurred in childbirth). As such, there were a huge number of babies who were born, unwanted. Most of these unwanted children were taken outside the Eastern Gate of the city and left on the ground beside the road to die of exposure (some records suggest 2,500 – 25,000 babies/year). Slave traders would sift through these babies and choose the ‘best ones’ to raise as slaves (we have ancient writings telling how to best choose slaves from infants). There are records, I believe, that some Christian families would go outside the gates and save children left to die, to raise as their own.
With that said, I would also point to Paul’s writing to Timothy:
From this, I would take the principal that first you would care for the oppressed/poor/hungry within the church before going outside the church. In America, though, especially, I don’t see many churches at the level of poverty that would preclude going outside the church…
Richard, you are too easy my friend. I like you and would never demean you personally. Never. So take what I say as real humor in things like that.
Like when I say Rick Warren is the evangelical doughnut king, I’M KIDDING!!
Ok, I’ll make you in my book: “Rick Frueh – Not a Hater.” Got it.
Aw, this is so sweet. R.A. has found a new home in which to share his many words…
Seeing as how we are all human beings and have nowhere else to live, we all have to be “worldy” to some extent to survive.
Going one step further, it’s additional error to condemn God’s creation… that which God called good.
There are many times when people leave comments on ODM sites saying something to the effect of “Come Lord Jesus, quickly!” While I share that sentiment, I’m at the same time suspicious. I worry that many in the ODM camp think that somehow they’re, well, just too good for planet earth. As if their presence here is sullied by the “worldliness” of it all, and they’re exasperated by the sin they see everywhere.
And that makes me sad. It makes me sad because it’s such a sharp contrast to the Lord we both serve. Because of His love, Jesus left the perfection of heaven and came to earth as a human… and then there are humans who project an attitude of being too good for earth.
Such an attitude is sin, and I’m sure it grieves the heart of our Lord.
Oh, and bravo. This post points to a *central* error of many in the ODM camp.
MG,
There are many times when people leave comments on ODM sites saying something to the effect of “Come Lord Jesus, quickly!” While I share that sentiment, I’m at the same time suspicious. I worry that many in the ODM camp think that somehow they’re, well, just too good for planet earth. As if their presence here is sullied by the “worldliness” of it all, and they’re exasperated by the sin they see everywhere.
MG, I really don’t believe that one bit. I don’t think that most ODM’s are self righteous , pious, and legalistic at all.
Pssssst Richard,
Sometimes Rick forgets to take his insulin and gets a little strange… unlike me when I do it… I just forgeeee….
Hey a shiny thing!…
What were we talking about….?
hmmm..
I will get back to you.. can you rephrase your question again?
Thanks….. : /
iggy
Deborah, when commenters on ODM sites say “Come Lord Jesus Quickly” in response to such things as Christians drinking alcohol, Christian merchandise, and other petty issues, it is a bit laughable, and those commenters do come across as being a bit self righteous. I think MG was referring to commenters, not ODM bloggers themselves, though that does sometimes apply to them as well.
Well, yes, folks, it happened again. For my comments here at CRN.info (I think in this thread), as well as my unwillingness to get into a protracted argument over am AC/DC song played by a band at a church, I have received yet another email by an ODM.
And, as usual, I was told to repent — repent of stubbornness and pride and for turning a blind eye to sin. It was also implied that I have been turning another blind eye to God’s Word (thank goodness I have two eyes). I apparently need to wake up, says this ODM, and do the right thing (i.e., take this ODMs position on everything).
Oh, and as always, I was told I would be prayed for and being lifted up to the Lord!!!!! Prayed for so that I would receive the mercy and forgiveness Christ is offering me.
Blech! Sorry, but sometimes I just can’t take any more of this kind of sanctimonious nonsense. I can only imagine how disgusted Christ must be. Just thought I’d warn you guys to check your mail boxes – possible time to set a new spam filter.
Merry,
I have made that plea ” Jesus, please come quickly ” myself as a commenter. I really am a fundamentalist and I really do believe that we shouldn’t look and act like the rest of the world. Now I don’t think that is being self righteous. The world is really getting evil but I don’t blame it on the hippies.
Richard, I know exactly how you feel.
Deborah,
“I really do believe that we shouldn’t look and act like the rest of the world.”
I agree with this statements, though it depends on your views of “being like the world” as was discussed in the article. The commenters I have seen state “Jesus, come quickly” were saying this in response to cultural trends and fashions, which are not major issues.
“but I don’t blame it on the hippies.”
That’s good, because I am one! j/k
Richard,
I have been conversing with a s Susan G… who seemed to just only be able to say, “Logos is Jesus, Rhema is man’s understanding…”… then when I tried to converse and ask questions I was told I was dodging her questions….
She accused me of lying which I just scrolled down and cut and paste what I said and stated that it was actually she who was not answering questions and dodging things.
Of course I asked her if her doctrine was perfect and if it was stated she could cast all the stones she wanted… but if she was off any where she was not in a good place to call others heretics…
So far she has not responded… but at least she “warned” me.
= )
iggy
Deborah,
You think the evil is really getting evil? when wasn’t it evil? Just wondering. I have to agree with MG’s comment also on the “come lord jesus…” it seems really dramatic to me, like I can’t bear to live on this earth anymore. that’s what I think everytime I actually read the one site that allows comments
I’ve commented in the past here, but generally I just lurk. From the stats on my blog, it seems that someone here went back to an old post (here) to get a link to my blog. I just wanted to point out to whomever that was, that the Deborah posting here now is not me.
Sorry to stick this in the middle here but there might be some confusion about that.
Thanks.
deborah
Chris,
The examples you give are fine, but the first one is not necessarily ‘from the Scripture’ as much as from history or even inference. The second, is common sense and family might not qualify as ‘general public.’ Those are good examples but hardly ‘absolutes’ in the sense that ‘Jesus is Lord’ is absolute.
I do not necessarily disagree with you. I think there is a place for ministering to the needs of the poor and afflicted in general. And since we are not persecuted to the point of needing first to take care of our own (except for Rayford and Buck types) I think we should take care of others. And, to be sure, I do (my son and I worked at the local food bank just last night). However, I think it falls into the latter two categories of your pyramid: Conviction or preference. It might be those ‘good works’ that God prepared in advance for us to do. Some are ‘called’ to minister to others in this way, some are ‘called’ in other ways.
The real question is: “Why do we do such things?” I know you had this debate before so I won’t rehash it here. Nevertheless it is still an important question.
On this we agree: the expenditure of millions of dollars to build church campuses is simply ignorant and, in my estimation, unjustified. But again, that is my opinion and conviction and while Scripture may validate my opinion in a number of ways, it certainly was not written with the express purpose of justifying my opinion or conviction. (It’s at this point that the ODM’s fail gloriously; that is, they think Scripture was written and preserved to justify their opinions and not God’s righteousness.)
Anyhow, thanks.
jerry
Deborah
So let’s get this straight,
You are not the Deborah , but the other Deborah
Is that correct?
Thanks for setting me straight… but correct me if I missunderstood…
iggy
(Yes, I am just messin’ wit ya!) = ) And no it was not me…
You are funny iggy, but I’m deborah with a little “d”.
Jerry,
Let me expand a little bit:
1) I would say, from the evidence in Acts – Revelation, that the church was first concerned with the poor and oppressed within its ranks (the widows and orphans are singled out, specifically) and with supporting each other from day one:
2) I would also note that ‘day one’ was Pentecost, and that this description ‘they gave to anyone as he had need‘ is not accidentally included in the Pentecost account. It is tied to the body of teaching around Pentecost – the feast celebrating the wheat harvest. The key teachings tied to the Temple and worship on Pentecost (where the disciples were teaching) are the giving of Torah to Moses, the book of Ruth, and the origin of Pentecost in Leviticus 23, which ends with this:
The sign of a ‘true’ Pentecost is one in which the harvest of the land is shared with the oppressed. Luke’s inclusion of
is a demonstration that the Pentecost which began the Christian church is also a ‘true’ Pentecost, because all who had need were taken care of.
Mandy,
like I can’t bear to live on this earth anymore.
I think you’ve got that correct I don’t see that as being self righteous though. It would be so much more pleasant to be home with the Lord. It’s very difficult being a Christian and we were forewarned to count the cost. I am grateful that God chose a nobody like me. The Lord deserves my obedience in all things and I hate to disappointment my precious Lord and my brothers and sisters in Christ. Now that’s heartbreaking .
Deborah,
I just don’t get the “Jesus, please come quickly” line. I’ve heard Ingrid use it a number of times, and every time I hear it, it annoys the daylighs out of me. Just because there are things in this world that you don’t agree with, or find confusing, that’s still not a good enough reason to pull the plug on those of us that are having a fine time, and would like to see life continue on for the generations of family still to come.
If its that difficult being on this planet, and you’re in such a hot hurry to be someplace else, then why hang aound.
The worldly thing still amuses me to no end. Is a nice car worldly, but a modest “grocerygetter” less worldly? Would God really like me more if I traded in my Lexus for a Honda Civic? More important, does God favor modest domestics over flashy imports? Maybe I should look into a nice Ford Focus. Ooops, never mind, I almost forgot…VCY reminded us all that Ford placed media buys in gay magazines.
Oh, its all too complicated. I think I’ll just go back to the “good ol’days” where you just believed in God, and tried to be a good person, made a genuine effort not to be a knucklehead, treat others as you’d like to be treated, and smile and nod in benign amusement at the bible thumping fundies that were all too quick to tell you that “this music”, or “that TV show, or movie” or mode of dress was going to lead to an eternity in the “lakes of fire”. You gotta love the whole “lakes of fire” thing.
True, but are pleasantness and avoiding difficulty what we should long for? I guess I do in that I don’t seek difficulty.
Yet, I see so much beauty in this world, so much imago dei in people…
And what does it really cost to be Christian in our neck of the woods?
Neil
“It would be so much more pleasant to be home with the Lord. It’s very difficult being a Christian and we were forewarned to count the cost.”
I understand what you are saying, but as Neil alluded to we Americans have nothing to complain about. When we see a Chinese wife singing and praising God in a service held in secret and with her husband spending his fifth year in jail, well, that should convict us all.
Didn’t someone somewhere say that we would be known by our love? Hmmm, let me see, now who was that……….Ah yes, now I remember: “By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” (Jn. 13:35).
One thing I do see as a serious problem is churches that push the give aspect at the expense of members who are in serious debt and are guilted to give out of their borrowings, not wealth. I saw this as expecially nasty in one (around 400) church I was in that borrowed well over $1 000 000 to buy some land and had people sign up in a pledge to give X per month to the fund.
What should be taught is the dangers of debt in the fractional reserve banking system.