In America, though, especially, I don’t see many churches at the level of poverty that would preclude going outside the church…

One thing I do see as a serious problem is churches that push the give aspect at the expense of members who are in serious debt and are guilted to give out of their borrowings, not wealth. I saw this as expecially nasty in one (around 400) church I was in that borrowed well over $1 000 000 to buy some land and had people sign up in a pledge to give X per month to the fund.

What should be taught is the dangers of debt in the fractional reserve banking system.

I understand what you are saying, but as Neil alluded to we Americans have nothing to complain about. When we see a Chinese wife singing and praising God in a service held in secret and with her husband spending his fifth year in jail, well, that should convict us all.

It would be so much more pleasant to be home with the Lord. It’s very difficult being a Christian and we were forewarned to count the cost.

True, but are pleasantness and avoiding difficulty what we should long for? I guess I do in that I don’t seek difficulty.

Yet, I see so much beauty in this world, so much imago dei in people…

And what does it really cost to be Christian in our neck of the woods?

Neil

I just don’t get the “Jesus, please come quickly” line. I’ve heard Ingrid use it a number of times, and every time I hear it, it annoys the daylighs out of me. Just because there are things in this world that you don’t agree with, or find confusing, that’s still not a good enough reason to pull the plug on those of us that are having a fine time, and would like to see life continue on for the generations of family still to come.

If its that difficult being on this planet, and you’re in such a hot hurry to be someplace else, then why hang aound.

The worldly thing still amuses me to no end. Is a nice car worldly, but a modest “grocerygetter” less worldly? Would God really like me more if I traded in my Lexus for a Honda Civic? More important, does God favor modest domestics over flashy imports? Maybe I should look into a nice Ford Focus. Ooops, never mind, I almost forgot…VCY reminded us all that Ford placed media buys in gay magazines.

Oh, its all too complicated. I think I’ll just go back to the “good ol’days” where you just believed in God, and tried to be a good person, made a genuine effort not to be a knucklehead, treat others as you’d like to be treated, and smile and nod in benign amusement at the bible thumping fundies that were all too quick to tell you that “this music”, or “that TV show, or movie” or mode of dress was going to lead to an eternity in the “lakes of fire”. You gotta love the whole “lakes of fire” thing.

like I can’t bear to live on this earth anymore.

I think you’ve got that correct I don’t see that as being self righteous though. It would be so much more pleasant to be home with the Lord. It’s very difficult being a Christian and we were forewarned to count the cost. I am grateful that God chose a nobody like me. The Lord deserves my obedience in all things and I hate to disappointment my precious Lord and my brothers and sisters in Christ. Now that’s heartbreaking .

Let me expand a little bit:

Do you think that a case can be built, from the Scripture, that the Church is to be concerned about ‘the oppressed in their own community’? That is, do you think that the New Testament church, written about in the book of Acts and the letters and the Revelation, were commanded to be ‘concerned about the oppressed in their own community’ in the general sense of your phrase?

1) I would say, from the evidence in Acts – Revelation, that the church was first concerned with the poor and oppressed within its ranks (the widows and orphans are singled out, specifically) and with supporting each other from day one:

All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need.

2) I would also note that ‘day one’ was Pentecost, and that this description ‘they gave to anyone as he had need‘ is not accidentally included in the Pentecost account. It is tied to the body of teaching around Pentecost – the feast celebrating the wheat harvest. The key teachings tied to the Temple and worship on Pentecost (where the disciples were teaching) are the giving of Torah to Moses, the book of Ruth, and the origin of Pentecost in Leviticus 23, which ends with this:

“‘When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God.’”

The sign of a ‘true’ Pentecost is one in which the harvest of the land is shared with the oppressed. Luke’s inclusion of

Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need.

is a demonstration that the Pentecost which began the Christian church is also a ‘true’ Pentecost, because all who had need were taken care of.

So let’s get this straight,

You are not the Deborah , but the other Deborah

Is that correct?

Thanks for setting me straight… but correct me if I missunderstood…

iggy

(Yes, I am just messin’ wit ya!) = ) And no it was not me…

The examples you give are fine, but the first one is not necessarily ‘from the Scripture’ as much as from history or even inference. The second, is common sense and family might not qualify as ‘general public.’ Those are good examples but hardly ‘absolutes’ in the sense that ‘Jesus is Lord’ is absolute.

I do not necessarily disagree with you. I think there is a place for ministering to the needs of the poor and afflicted in general. And since we are not persecuted to the point of needing first to take care of our own (except for Rayford and Buck types) I think we should take care of others. And, to be sure, I do (my son and I worked at the local food bank just last night). However, I think it falls into the latter two categories of your pyramid: Conviction or preference. It might be those ‘good works’ that God prepared in advance for us to do. Some are ‘called’ to minister to others in this way, some are ‘called’ in other ways.

The real question is: “Why do we do such things?” I know you had this debate before so I won’t rehash it here. Nevertheless it is still an important question.

On this we agree: the expenditure of millions of dollars to build church campuses is simply ignorant and, in my estimation, unjustified. But again, that is my opinion and conviction and while Scripture may validate my opinion in a number of ways, it certainly was not written with the express purpose of justifying my opinion or conviction. (It’s at this point that the ODM’s fail gloriously; that is, they think Scripture was written and preserved to justify their opinions and not God’s righteousness.)

Anyhow, thanks.
jerry