Friends, we have known that for some time now the anti-Christian bias of the United States has been oppressing those of us who are the true, discerning, followers of Christ. It has now come to our attention that part of this oppression has come internally in the form of Christian websites spreading any and all salacious gossip about Christians they can find. What’s worse is they are working hand in hand with secular sources to do their work.

You can go here for a sample.

Hear the hiss.

Edit:
For those that didn’t catch it, the tone of this post was parodying ODMs.

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This entry was posted on Saturday, May 17th, 2008 at 12:57 pm and is filed under Editor, ODM Writers, Schadenfreude. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
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64 Comments(+Add)

1   Chris P.    
May 17th, 2008 at 1:17 pm

So linking to a Dallas Morning News story is salacious gossip.?
Better call their editor.

2   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
May 17th, 2008 at 1:36 pm

Yeah, O mighty “true, discerning, followers of Christ”; how dare those repugnant reprobates place up a news story with no further comment.

What is this world coming to!? No doubt we will all be so eternally grateful God gave the Church Chris Lyons and his CRN.Info super-Christians.

3   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 17th, 2008 at 2:00 pm

Thank you, Tim. I find nothing so offensive as publicly exposing the sins of others especially in concert with the unbelieving press. What is the purpose, to help demean Christ by allowing the lost world to eroneously make a connection between our shortcomings and failures and Jesus Christ Himself?

I may strongly disagree with Brian MacLaren on doctrinal issues, but I would not under gun point print any of his shortcomings or personal sins. I have yet to wade through my own. I still contend it is Satanic on a very basic level. Satan goes before the Lord to accuse faithful Job. He doesn’t have to accuse believers who have sinned, the body of Christ will gladly take up that mantle!

It is anti-redemptive.

4   Neil    
May 17th, 2008 at 3:30 pm

Rick,

I think they think it’s justifiable if the person can be connected to a mega-church, an emerging church, Rome, or Rick Warren…

Neil

5   Diogenes    
May 17th, 2008 at 4:37 pm

“Thanks” for posting this. If you hadn’t, I would not have visited the linked website to find out about it.

6   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 17th, 2008 at 5:00 pm

Tim,

I wonder if a congenital lack of nuance is required to write for/sympathize with ODM’s…

7   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 17th, 2008 at 5:59 pm

Diogenes – you missed the entire point. BTW – you voluntarily clicked on the link even when Tim’s title was “Anti-Christian Bias”. You were warned, but you were curious. Kinda like a Christian peep show, no? :)

8   Dave Muller    http://blog.thewebsiteguy.com.au
May 17th, 2008 at 7:06 pm

Hear the hiss.

Come quickly Lord Jesus! The sooner these apostates are burnt in His wrath, the better for us!

9   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
May 17th, 2008 at 7:06 pm

Hmm, and I wonder if a sense of humor must be surgically removed in order to write for/sympathize with the watchers of the ODM’s…

10   David C    http://davidcho.blogspot.com
May 18th, 2008 at 10:43 pm

Kenny my boy is back!!!!!!

Congrats on getting on Teampyro’s blogroll. You must have gotten tickled pink (very appropo in light of California’s gay marriage ruling :D ).

11   Dave Muller    http://blog.thewebsiteguy.com.au
May 19th, 2008 at 1:42 am

Hmm, and I wonder if a sense of humor must be surgically removed in order to write for/sympathize with the watchers of the ODM’s…

Your target audience might slide if you don’t have
a) a joke
b) a pop reference
c) some cool music
:)

12   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
May 19th, 2008 at 7:31 am

So, Ken, are you saying this man’s sins are a laughing matter?

What exactly is the point of posting a link to an article informing us of a minister’s public sins? I bet you were just doing it so we would remember to pray for this guy, right?

13   oscar    
May 19th, 2008 at 9:30 am

When a minister drives to to meet with a 13 year old girl and he gets busted. What are we supposed to do as christians?
make believe like it never happened?pray for the guy?
Or do you think God shunned a Big spot light on it?

It just so happens that the minister who got caught has a large church and is more noticeable then the minister who has 200 in his church.

14   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 19th, 2008 at 9:37 am

Point of order – the minister I believe is a lower level member on the staff.

15   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 19th, 2008 at 9:38 am

Also – only having 200 members in a church has never stopped posts about them in the past.

16   Tim Reed, Owosso MI    http://churchvoices.com
May 19th, 2008 at 9:42 am

When a minister drives to to meet with a 13 year old girl and he gets busted. What are we supposed to do as christians?
make believe like it never happened?pray for the guy?
Or do you think God shunned a Big spot light on it?

Spreading true gossip is still spreading gossip.

What should we do? Nothing.

What should that church do? Call him to repentance, support the family, give any testimony asked for by the state.

Oscar, I’m seriously interested in what support you see in scripture for spreading the sins of Christians around. True gossip is still gossip.

17   oscar    
May 19th, 2008 at 9:43 am

Does God bring sin out of the darkeness into the light?

Yes low level minister, but a minister. reason it was on the news according to police because ” he was the first prominent arrest in this type of operation”

18   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
May 19th, 2008 at 9:48 am

Oscar,
Well, what do you think we should do – tar and feather him, put him in the stocks in the town square? I mean, yeah, his sin is a serious offense, and he’ll pay the legal consequence. But what should a Christian response be? It seems to me that Jesus’ response was to die for him and take the sin upon Himself.

To me it gets back to the fact that a lot of people really don’t understand the scandalous nature of grace.

19   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 19th, 2008 at 9:49 am

Paul was adamant to the church in Corinth that we should not go before the secular government with our failures and/or disagreements. A Christian that sins like that should be called to repentance and given Spiritual accountability and forgiveness.

In no circumstances should we report him to the newspapers or have anything to do with a secular, incomplete, biased, and unredemptive account that is on some level to SELL NEWSPAPERS!

20   oscar    
May 19th, 2008 at 9:50 am

Tim,
When a person is caught in sin he is first reprimanded, if he does againg he is brough up to the elders and if he continues witht the sin he is then thrown out of church.

is this scriptural?
1 thimothy 5:20
20 Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.

21   Tim Reed, Owosso MI    http://churchvoices.com
May 19th, 2008 at 9:53 am

Paul was adamant to the church in Corinth that we should not go before the secular government with our failures and/or disagreements. A Christian that sins like that should be called to repentance and given Spiritual accountability and forgiveness.

Rick,
This is a dangerous road you’re going down. Criminal matters are separate from disputes between and among Christians.

Oscar,
I asked where you saw scriptural support for spreading gossip, even true gossip. Not whether or not God brings the darkness into the light.

22   Dave Muller    http://blog.thewebsiteguy.com.au
May 19th, 2008 at 9:55 am

20 Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.

There’s a difference between doing that in your church and waving someones sin in eveyones face.

23   Tim Reed, Owosso MI    http://churchvoices.com
May 19th, 2008 at 9:56 am

Oscar,
Rebuking someone publicly is a face to face action between elder/s and sinner. And again, its something that particular church should be doing, not something that random angry bitter ODM is called to do in order to score ideological points.

24   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 19th, 2008 at 9:59 am

Tim – that minister was arrested for a corporate self gratification in public. If he wasn’t caught, but confessed to the preacher that he had committed an illegal act, should that preacher go to the Newspaper? The police? That is what I meant.

We must be egregiously careful about joining with the secular with anything.

25   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
May 19th, 2008 at 9:59 am

I agree with Tim. It gets back to a whole underlying issue I have with the very existence of these supposed “discernment ministries”. They essentially have put themselves in a position of judgement over and above all church leadership. In essence, they are acting as “wanna-be popes” as Michael Spencer said. They alone have the power of excommunication, and I’m sure in their minds, they are speaking from God. So how is that different from papal authority?

26   oscar    
May 19th, 2008 at 10:00 am

So rebuking someone in front of the church is now not public?

8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light
9( for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth)
10 and find out what pleases the Lord.
11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.
12 For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret.
13 But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, 14for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said:
“Wake up, O sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you.”

Where’s is your scriptural proof?

27   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 19th, 2008 at 10:01 am

I meant he was arrested for the 13 year old meeting. Sorry.

28   oscar    
May 19th, 2008 at 10:02 am

Phil,
I am not even talking about ODM’s.
I know you are all angry at them but lets keep our anger in check.

Everything we talk about in this blog always turns into ODM’s Fault.
Let it go.

29   Tim Reed, Owosso MI    http://churchvoices.com
May 19th, 2008 at 10:04 am

Oscar,
You mean like this?

So rebuking someone in front of the church is now not public?

I never stated that. I stated rebuking someone in front of the church involves 1) that church and 2) that person. Which of those is the anonymous editor at CRN.com?

30   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
May 19th, 2008 at 10:07 am

Oscar,
Well, we are talking about ODM’s here. That’s whole point of the original post. Why does Ken, a pastor in New Hampshire, need to post an article about the sins of a pastor in Texas. I just cannot think of a good reason to do such a thing. Knowing how the ODMs think, I’m sure it was an act of Schaudenfreude more than anything.

31   oscar    
May 19th, 2008 at 10:11 am

Tim,
the guy was not caught in church, it was the police. Maybe if the church would have had their own sting operation maybe they could have kept it in the church ” privately “.

32   Tim Reed, Owosso MI    http://churchvoices.com
May 19th, 2008 at 10:14 am

Oscar,
That’s it doesn’t matter where it happens or who does it. There is no call for Christians who aren’t part of that church to begin publicly gossiping about it. Its sin, plain and simple. When you rebuke someone, you do it to them, not simply state the facts to third parties.

33   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 19th, 2008 at 10:14 am

“I just cannot think of a good reason to do such a thing.”

There is no good or spiritual reason for such a thing. It is a spiritually criminal act that takes the facts as reported and spreads them to infest our minds and bring further pain to the offender’s family as well as show the world there is no real redemption except in systematic theologies.

It is bottom feeding in its most basic form.

34   oscar    
May 19th, 2008 at 10:24 am

Didn’t you just spread the same gossip that the ODM’s spread by posting it here and talking about it?

Maybe instead you should have left it where you founded and not continue with the spread.
Because now we also know what that minister did.

Going to ODM sites and spreading their wrongdoings is the same thing in this case as gossip.

Blessings,

35   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 19th, 2008 at 10:24 am

Oscar,

Perhaps you could direct me to one of Paul’s epistles to Galatia, Philippi, Thessolonica, Colossae, or Ephesus where he wrote to them about the guy sleeping with his step-mother in Corinth?

Public rebuke has its own function within the local body. In reality, the citation of the news article was a sad, sick attempt at scoring political points against a church with no grounding in love, whatsoever.

36   oscar    
May 19th, 2008 at 10:28 am

I agree but what can you expect from the media?

37   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 19th, 2008 at 10:28 am

Didn’t you just spread the same gossip that the ODM’s spread by posting it here and talking about it?

My May 17, 2008, 5:00 pm comment still stands.

I wonder if a congenital lack of nuance is required to write for/sympathize with ODM’s…

38   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 19th, 2008 at 10:28 am

“Going to ODM sites and spreading their wrongdoings is the same thing in this case as gossip.”

You know what, Oscar, sometimes it is. But many times it is both rebuke and a Biblical object lesson about which we should avoid. This post was not about that brother, we should pray for him and his family, this poat was about the dirt spreading bottom feeders that find some tortured self righteousness in exposing the sin in others.

I would also suggest that the type of churches that are most posted about are similar in nature. Hmmm…I wonder.

39   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 19th, 2008 at 10:31 am

I agree but what can you expect from the media?

Last time I checked, CR?N didn’t claim to be the secular media. Certainly, we can’t control what the media chooses to print (or how they characterize/mischaracterize it), but becoming their water-carrying toadies for the purpose of scoring political points against church denominations we hate doesn’t square with Jesus’ teaching by a long shot.

40   oscar    
May 19th, 2008 at 10:33 am

Rick,
you said it, sometimes it is and sometimes its not.
So how do we know whats gossip and what is not?
when we attach a biblical verse to it i guess is not gossip.

41   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 19th, 2008 at 10:37 am

So how do we know whats gossip and what is not?

Rick gave you a bit of that clue in his response:

This post was not about that brother, we should pray for him and his family, this poat was about the dirt spreading bottom feeders that find some tortured self righteousness in exposing the sin in others.

Had this post been about the brother and trumpeting his sins, it would have been gossip. However, this post was dealing with a particular pernicious mindset – ‘discernmentalism’ – and the ways in which it directly wounds the church – and still does so, unrepentantly.

42   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 19th, 2008 at 10:40 am

Opinions about theology and doctrine and even methodology are fair Biblical game. Personal failures about brothers in Christ or unbelievers for that matter are nothing but unredemptive gossip. Please show me ONE POST that follows up on these type on either CRN or SOL that reports the restoration process of these men and women.

There are none because they are only interested in sin, not redemption. Paul’s advise to remove the man in Corinth was redemptive. He prayed and desired that the man be restored. AND HE WAS, and Paul rejoiced and instructed the church to receive him back fully. II Corinthians is the follow-up post to I Corinthians.

So far I have never seen a follow-up. Do you know why? Because these blogs get their info from secular sources and they are not interested in restoration. That is just as bad as being unequally yoked with unbelievers in any endeavor. But it is juicy.

43   oscar    
May 19th, 2008 at 10:41 am

So now we go and exposed the sin of the ODM.
Its a cycle we are all in.

44   oscar    
May 19th, 2008 at 10:42 am

Yes Rick I totally agree with you on that.

45   Darren Sapp    http://www.vaporministries.blogspot.com/
May 19th, 2008 at 10:45 am

Ken,

Had the associate pastor been from the mega church known as Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, CA would you have linked it to CRN? Is so, the same question applies. Why? What is “Christian” and what is “Research” about it?

For those that don’t know, that is the church where John MacArthur is pastor.

46   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
May 19th, 2008 at 10:54 am

Oscar,
I will give you this. I think that is very easy to fall into Schaudenfreude-type thinking. I think we all need to continually check our motivations as we all like pointing out others’ sin more than looking at our own. I don’t really think Tim did much in the way of “exposing” Ken in this instance, as it’s all pretty much out in the open already.

I think offering commentary on website is a bit different than digging up articles about pastors caught soliciting sex from minors.

47   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
May 19th, 2008 at 12:49 pm

Gossip? It’s worth noting that the guy spoke with a police officer. Not exactly heresay boyz.

By the way, does anyone know if postevangelicalism has now removed 1 Timothy 5:20 from the the NT?

48   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 19th, 2008 at 1:55 pm

Ken – I’d point out that there’s a difference between hearsay and gossip, but perhaps that nuance would be lost upon you.

As for Timothy 5:20, I don’t see Paul making the sins of Corinth ‘public’ outside of Corinth, or those of Ephesus outside of Ephesus, etc. In context (which, yes, I realize is a hard concept for you to grasp), this would be seen as dealing with the local ekklesia, not the universal church. Additionally, the schadenfruede of the reference is obvious, as well…

49   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 19th, 2008 at 1:59 pm

I think offering commentary on website is a bit different than digging up articles about pastors caught soliciting sex from minors.

Additionally, I would point out that it is fairly easy to argue that blogs holding one another accountable is analogous to peer-to-peer accountability (and that the Christian blogosphere, itself, could be seen as a quasi-ecclesial community). An associate minister of a church in Texas, though, would not seem a member of the same ‘community’ as a blog with no members or personal connection to the church.

50   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 19th, 2008 at 2:04 pm

Paul is instructing Timothy in a church setting how to address it when an elder sins. The “before all” I assume would mean those in the church not the world. The church in Texas surely should rebuke him publicly if they haven’t already.

I will await the restoration post in the future…

51   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 19th, 2008 at 2:05 pm

I will await the restoration post in the future…

And you’ll probably be waiting along with the rest of us for OJ to “find the real killers”

52   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 19th, 2008 at 2:09 pm

Paul is instructing Timothy in a church setting how to address it when an elder sins. The “before all” I assume would mean those in the church not the world.

Exactly!

Since the elder is placed over the body of the local church, it is only good hermeneutics that would follow that the “before all” would identify the local church, as well.

It could be, though, that since some folks seem to place themselves as pastors over the entire internet and Christendom, that such nuance is beyond their capacity of understanding.

53   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
May 19th, 2008 at 2:09 pm

Ken,
So are you implying that hearsay and gossip are the same in some way? There’s nothing that says gossip is false. It’s just not productive.

54   Tim Reed, Owosso MI    http://churchvoices.com
May 19th, 2008 at 3:04 pm

Ken,
Just because gossip is true doesn’t mean its not gossip.

55   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 19th, 2008 at 3:12 pm

BTW – Chris, please tell me what the Scriptures mean not to bring an accusation against an elder except by two or three witnesses? How can we claim to have those witnesses and have spoke with them when all we do is link to the secular press?

Isn’t that an unscriptural process? Oh, I know, we believe what the police say before the guy has a trial. Yea, that’s real Christianity.

56   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
May 19th, 2008 at 3:41 pm

It ain’t gossip boyz, nice try though. Chris L., I sure can feel your superior version of Christian love you have for me when you hold my comments in moderation as you’re doing.

O, and especially so within all your barbs like “water-carrying toadies” and “such nuance is beyond their capacity of understanding.” Ah, such lofty erudition. Ya jus’ makes me wish I’s az smart az y’all.

And who said I posted this piece? Now, don’t try and say that as General Editor I’m personally responsible for everything posted at CRN or I’ll have to say that because Rob Bell is founder and teaching pastor of Mars Hill Bible? Church he’s responsible for all that’s taught there. ;-)

57   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 19th, 2008 at 6:52 pm

It ain’t gossip boyz, nice try though.

Summation: It’s not gossip because I say so. No Biblical justification needed. Please ignore that the instructions to Timothy are for elders and are directed at the local church, not the entirety of Christendom. Besides, I quoted 1 Timothy 5:20, not all the verses around it. You have my word that it’s not gossip, your lying eyes and discernment to the contrary.

Chris L., I sure can feel your superior version of Christian love you have for me when you hold my comments in moderation as you’re doing.

Ken, you have been on and off moderation multiple times. You’ve been shown grace twice and had it removed, and each time, you’ve abused the minimal rules for immediate posting and been re-added to the moderation queue (and never had a comment removed/unapproved/deleted while you were moderated). In case you’ve forgotten, the way to avoid being in moderation is to be (for the most part) on-topic and charitable and to avoid posts which are almost solely name-calling, nit-picking, off-topic, exercises in plank/speck, and/or the Christian equivalent of “I know you are but what am I?” If you can comply for a short while, I’m sure we would allow immediate submission again, following the example of forgiving 70×7.

As for this being loving, it actually is quite so – I’ve been doing quite a bit of research (for my professional work) on split-second decision-making, the effects of electronic media on culture and the way the brain works within that culture. One interesting finding is that vitriolic posting on the internet is seen as something cathartic, and that the instant gratification of seeing such writing immediately flung at your opponent creates a somewhat addictive ‘high’ in certain people. (One suggestion is a delay filter for blogs that could add 5-10 minutes between ’submit’ and ‘publish’ for comments AND posts – which would avoid undue burden in management while providing a more safe environment for all.)

Your abusive posts and comments seem to fit this pattern, and by delaying your ‘instant gratification’, we are actually doing you a favor, Ken.

“such nuance is beyond their capacity of understanding.” Ah, such lofty erudition. Ya jus’ makes me wish I’s az smart az y’all.

Again, Ken, I was trying to be charitable with you – either you are incapable of nuance and just ignorant of the logical and biblical fallaciousness of your posts, or you are willfully malicious in your nastiness toward the Bride of Christ. The more charitable interpretation is that you are just ignorant of nuance (like the difference between “public” in the local church and “public” in all of Christendom), and not a malignant, malicious gossip-monger.

And who said I posted this piece? Now, don’t try and say that as General Editor I’m personally responsible for everything posted at CRN

Now Ken, we’ve had this conversation before. If CR?N only had the common integrity and accountability of the majority of pagan bloggers who sign their names to articles, you would not have to be concerned that people would assume that the unattributed words written on your blog were written by you…

58   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 19th, 2008 at 7:00 pm

Ken – what’s with the Brer Rabbit motif?

Chris – I did not see anything especially egregious in Ken’s recent comments. I have seen worse.

59   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 19th, 2008 at 7:10 pm

I did not see anything especially egregious in Ken’s recent comments. I have seen worse.

The two today were approved rather quickly (as they were remotely on topic) when I saw them, though they were still basically plank/specking at their core.

60   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 19th, 2008 at 7:48 pm

Still praying for you Ken… = )

iggy

61   Tim Reed, Owosso MI    http://churchvoices.com
May 19th, 2008 at 9:38 pm

So far the justification we have for spreading gossip:
1) It appeared in the Dallas Star so its not gossip.
2) 1 Timothy 5:20 requires it.
3) Its true so its not gossip.
4) Its not gossip cause we say its not gossip.

Wow, now those are some convincing arguments.

62   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 19th, 2008 at 10:59 pm

In an effort to make each expose on the sins of others more uniform, please use this official form in the future.

On the AP wire:

Someone somewhere is sinning.
Now that’s investigative journalsim!

63   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 19th, 2008 at 11:45 pm

Rick,

You forgot to add a place to identify the denomination of the sinner, so that one can demonstrate the bankruptcy of said denomination for producing a sinner.

64   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 20th, 2008 at 4:37 am

From the AP wire:

Someone* somewhere is sinning who belongs to an unapproved church organization.

* We at the Expose Gazzette are not responsible for the facts, the outcome of any prosecution, the needs of his family, and most especially any restoration process. This poor slob has served our immediate purpose. Please note we are at the most ambivilent about Christ, we don’t believe the Bible, we support abortion and many gay rights, and many of us do what this man got caught doing. However we are happy to help you serve your Lord and Savior in this endeavor!