When i first read this, I thought to myself “this has to be a joke.” But then I realized what website i was on. I am not doubting that this method of evangelism might work. But, it seems like just making friends with every non-believer that you meet would be a much more effective tactic. I am getting tired of hearing about these evangelistic methods that don’t require a relationship with the outsider. Especially when they include some type of statement like this in the explanation
So, let’s say you are in the mall. If you are like me, the security guards in your local mall know you by sight. As soon as you step foot into the mall, an APB goes out over security radios. “Red alert! We have a bogey inbound! That preacher is back! Keep an eye on him! We don’t want this subversive influencing the youths who frequent our mall!” source
Really? Does this guy really believe that the college freshman rent-a-cop in the retail outlets is concerned about the indoctrination of teenage mall rats? When will we stop trying to do evangelism like this? It’s like we want to help pull people out of the miry pit without getting the mud on our clothes. If having a bait and switch fake cell phone conversation is the best evangelistic tactic we got, something is wrong in Christendom.
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
216 Comments(+Add)
While I would agree with you that relational evangelism is preferable by far, I do know some people who have been saved by the Holy Spirit through people using these methods.
I find it very difficult to criticize, let alone ridicule, others for making an effort. If my Christian brother or sister feels led by the Holy Spirit to do this, then that is how they ought to evangelize, because they will reach those who may be reached by this method.
If I feel that I ought to evangelize in a different way (admittedly relational), then I ask that those who use cell phones and bananas and other contraptions not judge me either.
In other words, thank the Lord that harvesters are working in His fields, even if you don’t like the brand of combine that they’re using.
Amen EG.
I predict Nathan will
a) say that this article is satire, and that you are too obtuse to understand that
b) defend his premise by saying that his lack of evangelism is justified because of the good it does the world
c) Say (like Rob Bell, Doug Pagitt, et.al) that evangelism is unesecessary, because everyone is reconciled and restored when they stand in front of God, unless they reject Christ
I am sick of people who are likely of the 98% that Bill Bright says does not evangelize, or of the 2% who use deceptive methods and ‘human’ seeker friendly marketing methods to evangelize people into a particular church, or those that think having a rock concert or (insert public service) here is evangelism criticizing those great men and women of God who are actually doing what the Savior commanded.
In many states, distributing of literature in malls is considered soliciting, so the silent witness does not count. We must have creative methods to reach people who might never darken the door of a church with the good news. As Deputy Miano is respectful of the law, and passionate about evangelism, he has found a creative way to do this. Knowing Tony personally, I can only vouch for his great commitment to the Savior.
So Nathan, how do you suggest we might reach the mall rats? Or are they not worthy of salvation?
Rob Bell says that evangelism is unnecessary? I’ve listened to practically every sermon that he’s preached in the past year, and I’ve never heard that. In fact, I’ve heard the opposite.
As I said in my post, “…I ask that those who use cell phones and bananas and other contraptions not judge me either.” And I ask that you not judge brother Bell (or others) either. Each of us has a task in the harvest. I may use a Massey, you a John Deere, and Bell a Case – but we all have the same Holy Spirit purple gas, without which, nothing would get done.
So, to the author of the post, and to pastorboy… can the judging, fire up your combines, and get ‘er done in the way that you are led to do so.
Just as I found Rob Bell’s criticism of a street witnessing guy unwise, I find it unwise to criticize anyone who attempts to be used of God to bring sinners the gospel. I was saved in part by seeing bumper stickers. I never had any relationship with a born again Christian when I was saved. This cell phone approach may not be the most effective, but it just may plant some seeds. I appreciate his fervor.
Hey Nathan, I like your work, but I think I have to agree with E.G on this one… seems a little off base from what this site is about.
Tony isn’t attacking another Christian in his article, he’s just outlaying an evangelism method – probably doesn’t fall under “watching the watchmen” in my book unless I missed something.
Pastorboy,
When none of your predictions come true are we allowed to stone you as a false prophet? Or maybe you’ll just apologize.
I’m now taking odds on which one will happen first.
I will go on to ask- Do you believe that you are good enough to go to heaven? Do you think human kind is?
Do you believe that Jesus died for the whole world to be reconciled and restored as Doug Pagitt says? Or do you believe, as Rob Bell has stated, that the atonement of Christ brought the whole world into reconciliation?
If they are right, there is no need to evangelize. But if the Bible is right, and if we look at the words of Jesus himself as he says to ‘make disciples’, and that he is the way the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father but by Him, isn’t evangelism very important?
Nathan, have you ever told a lie? Revelation 21:8 says that in transgressing the 9th commandment, your home will be in the lake of fire!
How about stealing? how about adultery? Jesus said if you look with lust you commit adultery already in your heart. Jesus says that hatred is the same as murder.
How are you doing so far, Nathan?
You see, we need to evangelize, especially because many people who have heard of Christ do not even see their need for Christ. The truth is, we are sinners. The wrath of God abides on us. None of us seek after God. None of us are righteous. We need an alien righteousness. This is why Christ died. Romans 5:8 says it is a demonstration of God’s love for us. By his death Christ paid the penalty for our sins, and we must respond by repenting of our sins, and placing our trust in Christ for salvation.
One of the things that we do as a result of being born again is that we love God for what he has done for us, and we want to tell the world as often as we can, in any way that we can. We want to share this good news with others!
I would suggest some healthy self-examination, Nathan. If you insult people for their method of doing what God commands all Christians everywhere to do, how are you doing it? Are you?
You suggest we need to build a relationship? I can (by the power of the Holy Spirit) build rapport with a person within 3 minutes. It is all I need to share the Gospel!
I think a simple “I disagree with your criticism” may have worked better.
Tim,
I’ll apologize. Or you can stone me. It does not matter.
E.G.
If you have read Velvet Elvis, you will see this. If you watch Nooma 10 you will see this.
Also, I’m a little interested in how the success of this method is measured by people discussing Jesus. I seem to remember quite a few people complaining about various outreach ministries because they didn’t result in direct responses to the gospel. People would say, “well that’s great you did X, but those people are still going to hell”. Where’s that attitude at now?
Oh yes, I remember, its all about the team politics. People talking but not responding is good if you’re on the right team, but bad if you’re on teh wrong one.
Rick,
I disagree with your criticism of my criticism.
But I still love you.
Tim,
The Bible speaks very clearly about this. The word of God will not return void. If you are just speaking words into the open air, the right person will hear them at the right time.
I am simply commanded to speak the truth. The results are absolutely up to God.
PB – I completely agree with your view of this guy and his honest effort to witness. But you significantly expanded the topic and eventually made it about others including Nathan.
I have every confidence that upon further review Nathan will see that he was a little too severe. Just like all of us should sometimes sift our words. I have seen you do it too, to your credit.
Rick,
Even on this forum, though it is directed at Nathan, others will hopefully read and examine themselves in the light of God’s law. This is the way I evangelize; I can be speaking to one person, but if friends or passers by are around, be sure they are also being impacted by the words.
Re: my first post, the truth is that many of the more pomo ilk see little need or reason for any type of evangelism, or they consider nice deeds as evangelism (i.e. a cup of water, or some food, or some helpful deeds)
I agee with that which is a good topic for discussion.
Chris or Tim – Is the word pomo refer to post modern and is it derogatory or do emergents use it themselves?
PB,
That’s quite a stretch to go from Isaiah 55:11, which is much more properly read as messianic prophecy (Jesus = the word = how we are reconciled to Christ) than it is that heavy handed, and often insulting rhetoric will Jesus-Zap people. This jives especially well with the assertion that God’s ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts than our thoughts since the work of Christ was so mindblowingly unexpected.
Pastorboy is having a nice conversation with himself. And notice, he doesn’t even disagree with himself. Yea Pastorboy!!!!
Rick,
I believe its just an abbreviation. I’ve never heard of anyone being insulted by it.
As far as evangelism goes, may I humbly suggest that Christians stop criticizing each other’s methods of evangelism and actually start living out the gospel? The way I see it, most people in America have heard the gospel message. And a lot of them probably think it’s the stupidest thing they’ve ever heard, because the people they’ve seen claim to live it are complete judgemental hypocrites. I’ve seen this happen too much and it’s sad.
Also, not everyone is able to boldly proclaim their faith face to face with someone . . . complete introverts would do a lot better living it instead of talking it. Wait . . . everyone would do a lot better living it instead of talking it. “Cell phone evangelism” may be a valid effort, certainly, but unless those mall people actually see a genuine liver-outer of the gospel (okay, that sounds like some sort of gross canned meat!) and not just another hypocrite, chances are they will just snort and roll their eyes.
I read the article to the point he took the unnecessary swipe at Rob Bell… why one believer would feel the need to say another believer slander another is beyond me… it’s just sad really.
Neil
^Ha, ha, I’m such an articulate writer today!
Sorry if that made no sense.
So PB,
As I know that you’re aware, Jesus’ command was to make disciples, not go evangelize. In cell phone evangelism, assuming the word of God is not returning void and miraculously, a hearer genuinely repents of their sins, how does discipleship of this new believer happen?
corey
Amen… though can we critique methods? For example, while I think the cell-phone evangelism to be creative it is somewhat deceptive (since it’s a fake conversation) and I’m not sure evangelism by annoyance is the best method.
Just a question, not a criticism.
Neil
I originally read pomo ilk as porno ilk, and became very confused about what PB was saying.
“Pomo” is often used as a derogatory term. And of course it can be. But it’s not the universal enemy of the Gospel that most ODM’s (and/or those stuck in “Mo”) think it is…
Postmodernity is no more a threat to, or friend of, the Gospel than the Modernity it follows.
Neil
Neil – I agree. This guy has a heart for evangelism and appears to do a lot of it. However when you take several “swipes” at Bell or anyone else it is pride which means God does not accept it. It also means that instead of just sharing and exhorting, you are eliciting praise from your camp.
That is quite unproductive.
Again – I cannot get over the swipe against Bell in the article.
It served no purpose.
It was completely irrelevant to his story.
I don’t know… it just hurts to see someone go the offensive and out of their way to bash a brother in Christ.
What does it serve?
Neil
“and I’m not sure evangelism by annoyance is the best method.”
I quite agree. Like I said, most people in America know the gospel message. They just need to see it in action or they’re not going to really care.
Are you guys reading the same article that I wrote above? please not the following opening lines of the article
I am not saying that this is bad… I even said that this might be effective. And Pastor Boy, please tell me where I insulted his method of evangelism. I simply mentioned how ridiculous it is to
A. be infamous in the mall for disturbing the peace with your evangelistic methods
B. think that you are being escorted out of the mall because you are talking with teenagers about the gospel.
I did not insult his methods. i did critique this false sense of martyrdom and persecution. i guarantee you that I could go into any mall and strike up a conversation with the mall rats in LA without doing anything that would warrant my removal from the establishment, or put me on a black list for the future.
Look, I am not saying that this method shouldn’t be used. Anything that brings people to the gospel is GREAT! However, I find it funny that the ODMs will criticize PD churches for having a coffee bar in their church — “obviously” a bait and switch for the gospel. But, it is ok to have semi-illegitimate conversations over cell phones to deliver the gospel. For me the real issue is the pride in having an unnecessary infamous reputation in the community, and the double standard. I also find it unhealthy for most Christians to abdicate their responsibility to be in the world, trading it for impersonal evangelistic tactics.
Good points Nathan. Thanks.
PB,
Really now, you may make some good points in the interim; but when you begin and end a comment with such statements it’s really hard to take ya seriously.
Neil
“how do you suggest we might reach the mall rats?”
Mall rats are not the elect. Unless they are offspring of elect parents.
I would find cell phone evangelizing extremely annoying— (just like i find anyone talking on a cell phone LOUDLY annoying) but my main problems with these articles are- they kinda feel like the guy is being deceitful; he is kind of snide about the “rob bell look-alikes” (also known as people who are not fifty years old and follow trends?) He is snide about Rob Bell…
and mostly- if you’re going to get people talking about Jesus, why just drop a TRACT and leave without TALKING to them, helping the conversation go somewhere productive, asking if they need anything prayed for? it kind of boggled my mind….
I agree he should have avoided any Rob Bell remarks. However many of us have in our lifetime have spoken to someone looking for an opportunity to share Christ. Or even established a relationship partially motivated by evangelism.
I see nothing wrong with rehearsing the gospel to your friend over the phone in hopes that someone will hear.
Nathan:
“Are you guys reading the same article that I wrote above?”
Yes. And you make some decent points in your comments. However, the tone of your initial post went from the first line or so to a very critical statement about this guy’s method indicating something amiss in Christendom.
That final statement is very ODM, if you ask me.
As Rick has been saying, – and as I said at the outset – let’s just be thankful that this guy is spreading the Gospel.
If he wants to Bell bash, that’s another issue. The issue here is criticism of one form of evangelism or another, because that’s the issue brought up in the initial post.
“PB,
That’s quite a stretch to go from Isaiah 55:11, which is much more properly read as messianic prophecy (Jesus = the word = how we are reconciled to Christ) than it is that heavy handed, and often insulting rhetoric will Jesus-Zap people.”
Really!!??
I have heard these arguments before that whenever the term “word” appears in the scripture it actually means Jesus everytime.
If this is true then Jesus should have told the devil, “man does not live by bread alone but by every ME that comes from the mouth of God.”
Isaiah 55:
6 “Seek the LORD while he may be found;
call upon him while he is near;
7let the wicked forsake his way,
and the unrighteous man his thoughts;
let him return to the LORD, that he may have compassion on him,
and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
8For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 “For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven
and do not return there but water the earth,
making it bring forth and sprout,
giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater,
11so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.
This passage is speaking of God’s word both spoken and written.
I’m guessing you mean the ten commandments or parts of the Torah, in which case you are trying to win Gentiles with the Jew’s law. Isn’t the perfect law of God to love him and your neighbour second?
Then maybe you should go argue with someone who makes those arguments instead of me.
Considering the Hebrew word there (transliterated: dabar) is specifically the spoken word, I’m not sure you should be making statements like that. This is a case where a little bit of doubt about one’s own infallibility might have prevented such a simple mistake.
Or where do we see this doctrine reflected in the NT? Are there times when the gospel is responded to via the spoken word? Sure. But there are also times when the gospel is rejected outright. In fact, Jesus seems to indicate that is a very real possibility.
Perhaps taking a single verse that is surrounded by vivid imagery of life growing, and of God’s thoughts compared to our own and trying to systematize it into a justification for the type of evangelism you prefer but is now rarely if ever successful isn’t the best hermeneutic to use.
That has to be the most laughable method of “evangelism” I’ve ever heard in my entire life. ALL people who talk loudly on cell phones are obnoxious. Also, unless the person was a grade-A actor, it would be abundantly obvious that he/she was doing it for effect, and if I were at the next table, I would probably calmly walk over and matter-of-factly say, “Please, DO shut up, you freak.” This is no different from the annoying morons who hold signs at music festivals and/or on city streets. Objects of derision, all, and despite what some might believe, it has zero to do with the message. It’s about hypocrisy and invasion of personal space. More on that below.
I find it funny that, amidst the constant and blatant symbolism and allegory of that book, certain kinds of Christians choose that one to focus in on as literal. .
Oh, and Tim, remember when I told you earlier about the 3rd graders at OneNewsNow and the way they redirect links from blogs they don’t agree with? That quote is the exact outline of that very funny website.
That is so not even true based on observable reality.
OMG SRSLY.
That’s the problem with the Christian church these days…in so many cases the words and the actions don’t match. For instance, the other day, the leader of an anti-gay-marriage group in California urged county clerks, on his website, to refuse to hand out marriage licenses to gays, and proceeded to compare it to following orders to gas Jews. I’m sure he tells random people about Jesus, too.
Fruit borne? Rotten. Dead.
Merry:- As far as evangelism goes, may I humbly suggest that Christians stop criticizing each other’s methods of evangelism and actually start living out the gospel? The way I see it, most people in America have heard the gospel message. And a lot of them probably think it’s the stupidest thing they’ve ever heard, because the people they’ve seen claim to live it are complete judgemental hypocrites. I’ve seen this happen too much and it’s sad.
Also, not everyone is able to boldly proclaim their faith face to face with someone . . . complete introverts would do a lot better living it instead of talking it. Wait . . . everyone would do a lot better living it instead of talking it. “Cell phone evangelism” may be a valid effort, certainly, but unless those mall people actually see a genuine liver-outer of the gospel (okay, that sounds like some sort of gross canned meat!) and not just another hypocrite, chances are they will just snort and roll their eyes.
I agree, good post…..
I’m curious when Pastor Boy is going to apologize to Nathan since he’s now 0-4 on predictions.
Isn’t it funny the people who defend this method are also against pragmatism?
This is a silly and somewhat dishonest way to lead someone else to Jesus… I mean “pretend” (you know lie) to those around you that you are talking to someone else… I ahve stated this over and over, but people like PB just can’t or wont hear, Truth does not need lies to promote it.
= )
iggy
Oh really, Tim? Am I? Are you reading the same responses I am?
Corey,
The first step in making disciples is going- going out into the harvest fields. As the Greek indictes, “as you are going, go” or “in going, go” I still have yet to hear from any of these commenters what they personally do differently to reach people. Now, the command is to make disciples. Again the first step is conversion; you cannot make disciples out of a person who just believes Jesus is a cool guy; they must be converted knowing that Jesus is God who bore our sins and received the wrath of God on our behalf. When they know how they have been rescued and are born again from above, they will seek out the Word of God and desire to study it, be in fellowship with others, and have a strong desire to grow. They will seek out the evangelist who can plug them into a good, Bible-believing and practicing Church.
Someone in this volumonous thread mentioned about the testimony of those who willingly break laws, or go into malls..This is not just some college student mall security person, as I explained earlier, people who desire to share their faith one to one with strangers are being stopped; because they go to particular malls regularly, they are known. This is a creative method of sharing the Gospel, people have heard the Word of God preached. I cannot see any truly converted person having a problem with that!
As to the mentioning of Rob Bell et.al. I have documented ad infinitum the times that he has attacked and questioned evangelism, going so far as even questioning the need for it. It makes me wonder if on a board of so many Rob Bell apologists if Nathan is writing from that perspective or from a perspective Bell has also taken, a universal salvation. I raise that question again; is evangelism necessary? or is all the world going to be reconciled and restored to God?
Iggy,
If you read the original post, the person IS talking to somebody, answering the questions posed. Even though the other person is doing this knowing that these questions when answered will produce a response that allows the Gospel to be shared. Please do not misrepresent the article or the method.
Who have you personally gone out and shared with today?
Unless of course they may be the 12 disciples, the woman at the well, the woman caught in adultery, Mary, Martha, the thief on the cross, etc… Who I suspect were intrigued by Jesus’ words long before they were ever convicted of sin.
If you believe that substitutionary atonement is the way that God chose to reconcile us to him.
Except for the fact that it most likely is a “turn-off”, nuisance, and a poor representation of the Gospel to the security guard that has to toss you out every week. Seeing as how you continue to come back repeatedly even when asked to stop. I guess the verse about obeying the laws of man don’t apply when you want to be “evangelist”.
bwahahahahahaha!!!! Must we continually refute this. Nah not even going to bother. As I’ve said before “People who have problems with Bullhorn guy most likely are Bullhorn guy” *winks* at Todd Friel.
I would tell you but I look at witnessing the same way I look at prayer and fasting. If you gotta tell someone you’re doing it you’re probably doing it with the wrong motivation.
God can and does use anything. I hold up a sing on the highway that says “Prepare Now – I am Coming – Jesus”. All of us fall painfully short in witnessing so I am in favor of most styles of witnessing. Even caustic “Turn of Burn” street people have been used of God, sometimes speaking directly to someone or sometimes allowing people to listen to a more loving sharing since it is a breath of fresh air to them.
I have not seen Paul or Jesus criticize people for styles of witnessing. Paul even rejoices when sinners witness as a mock. There is enough dead wood without us putting out a little wild fire!
“If you believe that substitutionary atonement is the way that God chose to reconcile us to him. ”
That is the only way.
Gee, another ODM refuses to apologize after slandering his brothers. Shocking.
I won’t hijack the thread! Sorry.
“That is the only way”
“I won’t hijack the thread”
That thread, when unravelled, removes the clothing of redemption.
Agreed…kinda! LOL
Perhaps the better quote would have been:
Maybe it’s time we had an article on the numerous orthodox views of atonement within the history of the church, since SPA is rather new and has some ideological flaws (and orthopractical flaws, as demonstrated by PB, above) when viewed as the sole acceptable theory of atonement.
I apologize that I said that Nathan would say that he was being humorous and that we would be seen as obtuse. I was wrong. He has not said it to this point.
I apologize that on point 2 that Tim does not recognize that I was right, because multiple commenters (but not Nathan himself) have made this point for me, that it is more important to do nice things and build a relationship than it is to preach the Word.
I apologize, despite the fact again, that most of the people on this thread have agreed that their emergent
godsprophetsleaderspastors hate any verbal form of evangelism and see no need for it.I apologize, because I do not want to be offensive, the true Gospel is offensive enough as it is. I really want people on this board who are not born again to be born again. So therefore, I do not want to be an offense or a distraction. So I apologize.
Tim, I am offended that you have once again accused me of slander. Slander is making false statements. I have documented, printed, video, and recorded evidence of all things I have stated about Rob Bell, Doug Pagitt, Tony Jones, et.al.
So in accusing me of slander, you have slandered me.
Much of what you’ve written about Rob Bell would well be classified as slander, so Tim’s on pretty solid ground here…
FYI – the evidence of your slander against Bell is in this thread, beginning with your first comment:
Even when called on this falsehood by folks who listen to him every week, you’ve trudged merrily along. Just because someone teaches that lifestyle evangelism is more effective than street corner evangelism doesn’t mean that they teach that “evangelism is unnecessary”.
Your continued comments re: universalism are just as off-base and slanderous. Perhaps it is YOU who owe an apology. So, when are you going to go to Mars Hill Bible Church and spend several days there getting to know the church and its pastor – or is it more important to you to bash them to make yourself seem somehow spiritually superior?
Let back to the purpose on evangelism. The purpose is to let people know about it, so what’s wrong if we using cell phoe, it is just same as you using internet, just a media my friend
Rastor – I think it had more to do with the false pretenses and charade behind the “method” and the poor witness being made to folks (i.e. the security folks) by the continual making a nuisance of yourself in the way you choose to “share” the gospel…
I wasn’t even referencing that particular slander. I was referring to your predictions of what Nathan would do.
I also find it sadly predictable that your apology includes in it an insult.
Oh, and I should note that implicit within these predictions is the continued assertion that Chris L lied in the earlier satirical thread despite assurances by Chris L to the contrary and in addition to the testimony of his wife.
Such ungraciousness isn’t found even among pagans.
Chris L,
Just because people listen to him every week does not mean that they actually hear what he is saying!! I have documented written and recorded evidence of Rob Bell and Doug Pagitt denigrating evangelism and endorsing universalist thought.
Tim,
Where was the assertion that Chris L. did something in an earlier thread? Where was there an insult in the apology?
I am going to use the emergent’s favorite Bible verse here ‘judge not lest ye be judged’. Stop judging me Tim, you hypocrite!
“Such ungraciousness isn’t found even among pagans.”
Yes it is.
Fortunately, they have folks like you with access to the Lamb’s book of life and powers of ESP to ‘put straight’ their lying ears and eyes.
Whatever, John. You’re basically just a modern update of the 70’s hacks who played rock albums backward looking for ’secret messages’ that everyone else was ‘missing’.
I’m not sure how you can even look into the mirror after lies like the ones you’re touting…
Ah, the “he did it too!” defense (even if, as in this case, he didn’t ‘do it too’ – no apology was offered. Rather, sadly, I had to explain satire to a group of folks who should have been able to ‘discern’, based upon their supposed years of study. Literature 101, man – I thought they still taught that in schools today…)
Actually, John, you’ve just quoted the ODM straw-man version, choosing to only quote part of the context, leaving out the most important bit:
Which is exactly why the satirical piece worked so well the other day – far better than I imagined it might…
“You’re basically just a modern update of the 70’s hacks who played rock albums backward looking for ’secret messages’ that everyone else was ‘missing’.”
Yea, but Paul was really dead!
Someone might want to tell Heather Mills that she’s suing a dead man, then, and that her legal case doesn’t have a leg to stand on…
Pastorboy,
First, there’s the fact that you accused him of only pretending he intended it as satire (an accusation you still have not withdrawn or apologized for), then you make the same accusation here in the form of a prediction, which only makes sense if you think it happened once and so it happening again (which in your mind is the pattern the rest of your predictions took.
As far as where the insult is within your apology, that should stand out to anyone. You wrote:
Which is untrue, as well as intended as an insult.
Wow, this is so sad that we as Christians are spending our energy on the bashing of this issue. Is living you life right and not saying anything Biblical? Is “making friends” with nonbelievers biblical or even possible? The answer is clearly no. Did Jesus command us to go around and build relationships and make friends first? No, his commandment was to “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature” (Mark 16:15). Can the Gospel not be preached in Open Air, in a tract or even on a cell phone? Of course it can.
We could ignore that commandment by Jesus and wait to be asked or live our life right but we all know what happens. Many people we pass by or know will one day die and go to Hell. We are on this earth to tell others about our savior. If you are an “introvert” then pass out tracts. If you like speaking to people then do 1 to 1. If you are home bound, then send letters and tracts in the mail to people. The point is – Do Something According To What Our Savior Wants.
What if the Disciples waited to be asked or wanted to make friends with everyone first. Christianity may not have made it out of the First Century.
Chris L,
Was that an amputee joke?
Or am I being obtuse?
What about the idea that it’s just dishonest? You’re pretending to do something you’re not doing. It’s lieing. It’s being dishonest. It’s using false pretenses. It’s a sales gimmick. The motive may be right, but the action is dishonest. Period. At best, any who support this are supporting situational ethics.
Tim,
I apologize for that. I really meant it as satire, using the strike like many of the people here do to play like Mr. Double Talk, played by Kevin Nealon on Saturday Night Live.
I think you are being judgemental and obtuse
I think I will add an LOL and a =) like iggy to try to take away the sting.
Travis,
I suspect you’re picking and choosing which verse to quote to defend what you already held to be true.
The verse you happened to quote comes from a portion of scripture which isn’t found in the earliest manuscripts, indicating it probably wasn’t part of the original document. On the other hand if we quote from the ascension in Matthew we get this:
Of course this passage doesn’t say how to make disciples, it just says to go do it. Which is probably why you didn’t quote it.
travis,
I’m figuring you won’t come back- but you think being friends with unbelievers is unbliblical???
also- who said that we wait to be asked about jesus?
and joe- i think i said it was deceitful about 37 comments ago… I know you wish you were as intelligent as me
Pastorboy said: “Now, the command is to make disciples. Again the first step is conversion; you cannot make disciples out of a person who just believes Jesus is a cool guy; they must be converted knowing that Jesus is God who bore our sins and received the wrath of God on our behalf. When they know how they have been rescued and are born again from above, they will seek out the Word of God and desire to study it, be in fellowship with others, and have a strong desire to grow. They will seek out the evangelist who can plug them into a good, Bible-believing and practicing Church.”
Unfortunately, Jesus’ model doesn’t seem to be conversion first, then discipleship. In fact, he seems to disciple people into conversion. That is impossible with drive-by (phone-by) evangelism. As you rightly stated, in the Greek of the Great Commission, the only command is to make disciples. I find it fascinating that you will focus a lot of energy on the “first step” of going but will just assume that discipleship of the person that eavesdrops on the fake phone conversation will just happen. The COMMAND is to make disciples. Shouldn’t that be where we put our emphasis instead of just hoping that it takes care of itself or leaving it in the hands of this new believer to simply know what they need to do?
By the way, while not seeking to boast (but since you laid out the challenge that nobody here evangelizes)…I meet every week with a group of 20 teenagers, only 3 or 4 who have actually made a faith commitment yet. I lead them in study the Bible, we pray together and talk about what it means to be a follower of Jesus. Tonight, six of those kids actually came to church, which is amazing since none of them have any church background at all. We’re discipling them into faith…kind of like Jesus did. I would guess that other commenters here could say something similar.
You can talk all you want about how faithful you are to spout out the message to anyone who will not slap you (and even to those who will) but at some point there ought to be fruit that leads to disciples who make other disciples. I have yet to see any of these drive-by evangelists actually care for their targets as people and invest in their lives…which is necessary to DO WHAT JESUS SAID and MAKE DISCIPLES.
You quote a NIV translation from the 1970’s. Here is a KJ version –
“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.” 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
I didn’t go into every scripture on the issue but the one you mentioned is on the wall in my office so I am familiar with it. We could spend our time discussing early manuscripts and different versions of the Bible or we could do what Jesus commanded. The Latin for disciple is “a learner”. Can we “teach” others by numerous methods like I discussed earlier. Absolutely and we should. Jesus didn’t give a method in that particular scripture but he does give us examples throughout the NT (John 4:1-26).
“travis,
I’m figuring you won’t come back- but you think being friends with unbelievers is unbliblical???”
I don’t know why you would assume I wouldn’t be back but I may not be a regular simply because of time. If you thought I meant being friends with an unbeliever in not biblical, then you are mistaken. I simply don’t see where it is biblical to make friends before we speak to others about Christ. You can form a relationship with someone in a matter of minutes if you feel more comfortable doing that and then speak to them about Christ but when I hear Christians talk about “earning” the right over a period of time to discuss Christ, I simply don’t see that being biblical. I think that makes us more comfortable rather that doing what God wants us to do. If we saw strangers walking into a burning building, we would do everything we could to stop them. We wouldn’t care about being their friends or earning a right to talk to them but we think it is right to take our time in discussing the only thing that can save individuals from perishing.
Well, yeah I use a translation that doesn’t rely on manuscripts from the 1500s, which is probably why you don’t want to get into that discussion. The KJV is the worst major translation that you can still buy in most stores.
That being said, John 4 is a far cry from deceptive cell phone street preaching. Notice Jesus actually talks to the person he’s trying to communicate with, he deals with her on her terms, on her turf, and even lets her direct the conversation, and it is a conversation, not street preaching.
travis,
do you think you have to say Jesus a certain number of times in your life to get into heaven? it doesn’t matter at all if all the words you say just fall on deaf ears?
I’m really not looking for a fight… just asking.
^
Yes, but if one if to model after Jesus, it’s probably not a good idea to evangelize in thoroughly annoying ways.
Because that’s not how Jesus played it.
Hey, Mandy & Tim, I’m not a Biblical literalist and I like lots of other religions too, so I wanted to let you know we’re not friends b/c Travis said so, okthxbye…
It seems it’s the only joke I’ve not had to explain for the past several days…
Chris L., I don’t get it.
We wouldn’t have to earn the right to share the gospel if Christians hadn’t acted so unChristlike that mere identification with Christ in some quarters is enough to shut ears.
Not splitting hairs but the KJV is a transliteration (compiled manuscripts and some original translation) while the N.I.V. is a true translation (from the original Greek, Hebrew, and Aramic)
For my money I’m taking the translation over the transliteration any day.
I have heard people pray the gospel because they know unbelievers are listening.
Somehow, this is reminding me of the habit Ken used to have – grasping onto a phrase/word/concept that was new to him and then promptly using it in a consistently incorrect, incoherent manner…
PB, if you aren’t going to bother figuring what satire is and is not, how about just dropping the shtick? Seriously. It’s obvious that you don’t get it and that you’re just going to use it to cover for when you’re lying (which has nothing to do with the actual form of satire).
FYI: This isn’t the first time that I’ve used this particular form (or the first time that Ingrid and Ken both missed the point). I think it was the dance festival two years ago and my post mirroring Ingrid’s.
My personal concerns regarding evangelism are regarding the MESSAGE and if it is being done in a loving attitude. For example, I do cringe if I see someone doing a mean-hateful sounding kind of turn or burn you are going to hell kind of street preaching. But! I don’t mind that message preached on the street if it is done in love and an attitude of genuine care for people and accompanied with the GOSPEL- Christ crucified for our sins by His grace- which is good news.
If you have the MESSAGE right(not a false gospel) and the loving concern for people there in the delivery, why fuss about all the ways to witness? Creativity is a good thing. Right now I’m compiling a list of creative summertime witnessing ideas to share with people. We need more laborers in the harvest. There are many ways to witness and share the gospel. God gives us each different ways to witness.
Having a relationship somehow in evangelism is good & a wonderful thing. I personally love to have a relationship with someone and share the gospel. I also like to share the gospel with complete strangers. You know why? Because I may never see them again, but I care about them, and if the Lord guides me to share the gospel with someone, I’m must not tell Him no, but just do it. Even if I strike up a conversation and have a “relationship” that lasts 2 minutes before I start to tell them the gospel.
LOTS OF PEOPLE hear/read the gospel and get saved
without ever meeting the person who sent the message, or without ever having a conversation with the person who they heard the message from.
There are so many examples it would take a comment post a page long to list. Here are some examples:
1. Me: someone sent me a bible. Don’t know who. No clue. Did not have a relationship with him/her. But they witnessed to me. God used that bible to save me. Praise Jesus.
2. Believers in North Korea: found these big square red balloons, with the scriptures written all over them: sent by Chinese believers across the border, they never even met them; have no idea who actually sent them. They are saved, having read the balloon. Praise God.
3. A guy I heard on the radio who got saved hearing street preacher: The preacher was saying that his sins could be forgiven in Christ! He repented and believed and received forgiveness and life! He did not have a relationship with the street preacher. There’s so many people who heard a street preacher and believed, and they did not always have the chance to talk to the preacher but they heard the gospel and believed.
4. All the people who got a bible via Brother Andrew in communist Europe: They got this bible, and read it, and God saved them. They never knew Brother Andrew.
5.The man who gave a bible to a store owner in Persia in the 1950’s, who used the pages to wrap cheese in. A man came and bought cheese, took it home, unwrapped the cheese, read the bible page, went back to the store and got more cheese/bible pages and eventually became a believer, reading the ripped out bible pages. (He then found a Christian who gave him his own bible.) That man was discipled and went on to reach hundreds of his countrymen (muslims) with the gospel- this is part of the seed of the huge Iranian church we have now!
6. The people hearing a brother who spends all his time riding the train across Russia and preaching on the train! People are hearing and believing. wow, praise God.
I’m sure there’s millions of stories like this. Get creative, be loving & care about the lost. Get out there, tell it, give it, share it, burn it (CD),speak it, write it, shout it.
God blesses us with having relationships with some of His saints now, but in heaven, we will have a lot more dear saints to have relationships with- that we do not even know about yet, til we get to glory.
Sow in tears, reap in joy.
Loretta
My favorite prayers are the ones where people are giving instructions or directions.
I.E.
“Lord help all those that just heard my sermon live it out exactly the way I said to.”
No satire there I actually heard a guy pray that (well with the specifics of his sermon)
For future reference: All posts about SOL here will either be serious correction based upon a Biblical principle – or – a satirical treatise, delicately manuevered, peppered with enjoyable metaphors, and ultimately designed to both entertain and make just as serious a point as non-satirical posts.
How will you know the difference? Is there a satire/serious tag available??
“Dear Lord, I am about to take the offering and I feel some people are about to blatantly disobey You. I realize You are asking people to give half of their savings and that those that do not will suffer the consequences, but I ask you to give them the faith to give that much before You do something to their family dog. Thank you Lord for not killing the dogs of those that give.
Amen and amen.
“OK, ushers come forward…”
What am I lying about exactly, oh great mind and heart reader Chris L and Tim?
I am satririzing the satire which you claimed as satire but was really in my opinion (and many others) an ad hominem attack on a person you hate and proves that you are not a Christian because you hate and attack and slander your sister and brother in Christ (Ingrid and Ken)
Or are you saying you are Christian and that they are not and you have the right therefore to hate and attack them? Shouldn’t you instead love them in relationship rather than attacking them?
If Iggy can call his ODM site satire, I can call my earlier comments satire. If Chris L can call his last attack on Ingrid Slander, so can I
This might be called Ironic, or it might be called hypocritical, that I cannot use the literary method of satire because my satire is not satire, because I wrote it?
PS, fyi, most of the witnessing I do is:
1. Having friendly, 1 on 1 conversations with people, some which get to the gospel in 2 minutes after meeting them.
2. Distributing literature: gospels, homemade gospel messages and CD’s.
Let all you do be done in love.
Loretta
Pastorboy demonstrates why it has become necessary for Christians to earn the right to give the gospel.
PB,
1. Sounds even more unethical and dishonest then.
2. I have shared my faith to all and anyone I am around as God leads… And personally I see that as none of you business and part of your ailment and confusion what true evangelism is. This sort of question makes you look like you are better than those who cannot share or are not able to for some reason. It is not a contest it is life and death. I find it repugnant to see you reduce it to a notch on your belt.
iggy
PB,
The main difference is that I am funny… = )
And maybe you are not being honest in your representing your own motives as you judge mine.
iggy
This is the point that I think needs to be drawn out more. Somehow, any silly method that is deemed evangelically effective is OK. Isn’t that the definition of pragmatism? Isn’t that something that is usually railed at.
Frankly, I grew up in church environments that love to use guilt to manipulate people. Asking someone, “how many people did you share with today” is a pure guilt trip. I refuse to be manipulated by that kind of thinking anymore, and I refuse to use it to motivate people. In the end, I think a lot of “methods” I’ve seen Christians use end up hardening a great deal of people to Christ, and I don’t think that the fact that a small percentage of people actually say the prayer through these methods is a justification for using them.
I’m at the point where I am comfortable just interacting with people as the Holy Spirit leads. Anything else is trusting my own strength, and in the end is trying to justify myself.
Iggy,
It is not a notch on my belt, it is what I do to the Glory of God. I am not gifted as an evangelist, and it would be easier on me if I stayed silent. But I am compelled by the love of God for people and overwhelmed with compassion for them.
Typical ODM behavior (that you say is typical) is to attack me rather than repent for your hateful Online Discernment Mafia Site.
Loretta,
Thank you for your testimony. I am with you, I can, by the grace of God, build enough of a relationship with a person within two minutes to share the Gospel with them. I praise the Lord for your commitment to share and to be obedient to the Great Commission.
Corey,
Before one can be a disciple, he must be a follower of Jesus. You do not disciple people into following Jesus, God draws them, they follow Christ, and then they are discipled into modeling Christ and living like Him. But don’t stop your Bible study with kids, that is an excellent way of leading them to a relationship with Christ. I just choose to present the Gospel first, and then being willing to always teach and share from the Word of God. The preaching of Christ is foolishness to those who do not believe! But, I will not condemn you for choosing that way.
I do believe that people who refuse to evangelize are either a) disobedient b) apathetic c) honestly don’t know they are called to do so or d) not disciples. Every Christian is a missionary or an impostor.
PB,
If you even ever take the time to know me, I laugh naturally all the time. I express this with LOL as it is how I am.
So mock me or judge me as you will, but in this I have only the testimony of Christ in my rising in Joy even in the midst of deep sorrow and pain. I wonder if you could even begin to understand what Jesus has delivered me from… but instead of getting to know people… you think fake cell phone evangelism where you don’t even meet a person is good.
I have gone beyond being surprised by you depth of judgmentalism… LOL! = ) LOL! (Hope it stings as much as God wants it too!)
iggy
PB,
Why do I need to repent again, for using humor to expose the lies of the ODM’s? To poke fun at my friends? I have gotten more emails thanking me for that site that hate mail… so maybe you see yourself a bit too much and the mirror hurts?
LOL!
iggy
I actually agree with Phil!
I think many of the methods harden people to Christ!
Especially the methods that are man centered, calling people into a faith that makes you believe that somehow, someway that Jesus will ,make the ride easier, that add Jesus to your life and your (fill in the blank with marriage, finances, parenting, abundance) will improve.
Or the preaching that promises a better life in any way for you if you just receive Jesus
Or the preaching that says Jesus loves everybody and all you have to do is accept him
Or the preaching that is hellfire and calling you a sinner, without allowing the conscience to become involved (all you do is insult them, when they don’t know what sin is)
Or to soften the message by over generalizing about sin as in ‘all have sinned’ thus never engaging a true awareness of their depravity before God
Or a message that says nothing of Jesus, but serves others and helps them be more comfortable in this life
I think there is a myriad of ways that innoculate people from their need for Christ~ and they do not include cell phone evangelism!
But that is just my opinion. The most loving thing we can do is to help people understand their need of salvation from sin. We are showing our love for God in our obedience, and our love for man by being compassionate enough to warn them.
Iggy,
Still not going to apologize?
Tim won’t say anything…you are on his team.
Phil,
Yeah… I asked this a while ago and PB refused to answer it. I mean to me this is about the same as all the complaints about Rick Warren.
So again, it sounds dishonest and a bit detached from reality… it shows the hypocrisy that PB would defend then then attack anyone like Rick Warren..
Again, I see it as dishonest and about as effective as if one dropped tracts at random on the street while the wind blows… hmm that might even be more effective as God would be doing it!
LOL!
iggy
And I think we need to address a question you all had on many other posts~
Is the Holy Spirit unable to use a method, however illogical and foolish to you, to reach people for Christ?
LOL =)
PB,
For what? Will you for all the awful things you have stated about me here in this thread? All the judgmental statements you have tossed at me?
I forgive you… instead.
iggy
PB,
man you miss the point… if God is behind it great!
But, if someone has gotten the reputation to the point they are escorted out of a mall becuase of their obnoxious behavior I really cannot see that God is behind that… do you really think God would be?
iggy
Iggy,
Why won’t you just admit that your hate site is wrong and apologize?
PB,
BTW, I am not so proud to expect from you an apology… but if I have truly offended you and hurt your spirit so deeply that you desire one, In all earnestness I apologize that I hurt you.
Please forgive me…
iggy
How is it wrong and your site with all the lies and slander are right?
iggy
PB: “I just choose to present the Gospel first, and then being willing to always teach and share from the Word of God.”
But how do you disciple someone who overhears a fake phone call gospel presentation?
You are forgiven.
My site is not full of lies and slander. It is full of quotes, recordings, videos, all from the books and interviews the people have done. My interpretations are mine alone, and are based on the Bible and the reading and/or personal contact I have had with the people.
Your site, though you may call it satire, is hurtful, and it insult’s God’s church. The Ken Silva church growth meter is the prime example. That is not funny, it mocks God, and it mocks the efforts of a brother in Christ. It is not funny.
Corey,
Is God’s arm to short to draw that person in? Is the Holy Spirit incapable of bringing that person into fellowship? Is God not Sovereign?
(I don’t remember if you subscribe to Greg Boyd and his open theism….LOL =) )
PB,
really all I do at my site is link to ODM’s and act like one of them and hold them to their own standard when they slip up? In fact I hold them to their own standard than you or other self appointed ODM’s do… which is really the saddest point and the most humoring part of the whole satire blog.
Also, I have attacked Rick Warren, Doug Pagitt (i always misspell his name on purpose so Ken Silva will come and correct me and he usually does predicted) I have attacked Mark Driscoll and even Tim Reed as well as Brian McLaren. I attack this site on a regular basis… as well as Ingrid and CRN. I also have attacked Jerry Hillyer… and have a page against his site… go and read my attack on his promotion on Bill Hybels prayer book.
LOL!
I am fair with my satire across the board. In fact again I am more fair than most ODM sites are.
There is nothing to apologize or repent for… I just see that really if I have nto offended you (which was dishonest of you to say so) then you are merely thinned skinned.
iggy
PB,
All I’m saying is that if the COMMAND is to make disciples, drive by evangelism is not being obedient. Assuming that God is going to take care of discipleship is simply disobedient to the task that we’ve been given.
Corey,
All I am saying is that making disciples starts with conversion, which starts with God drawing people and gives us the privilege to plant seeds in evangelism. It is all part of the same process which we are all to be a part of.
So keep up and be blessed as you are obedient to that call.
Iggy,
If you cannot see it, you are blind. But thats okay. If you can justify it. I think it is wrong, but that is my opinion. I still forgive you.
PB,
i have pointed out a few lies on your blog that you refused to apologize for. In fact when confronted with the truth you attacked me and them more vigorously…
I think Ken has stated he has 6 people at his church…
The meter reflects that he has 6 people. If this is wrong then Ken can email me and let me know how many more people to add or subtract.
If it offends Ken, then let Ken say so… It is not against you so why are you so offended.
As far as mocking “God’s church”… LOL! that is far from what I am doing.
You are really stretching to find an offense to accuse me with…
iggy
PB,
I guess I could be more biblical about Ken and his “church” and quote Jesus…
iggy
Well, I am still offended. I still think it is mean spirited.
You have never shown me where I am wrong, Carlos. You have given opinions, as I have given opinions. Just because I do not agree with yours does not mean I am wrong. That is the height of arrogance to say so.
And it is the height of arrogance to say that a genuine, Christian brother like Tony Miano is not doing the loving thing by proclaiming the Gospel using creative methods, just because you do not approve. And it is sad that we attack someone who is actually doing something to expand the kingdom of God.
PB,
I have shown you where you are wrong. Let God be the judge of men’s hearts… please to not judge me as if you are God… You do not know if I am arrogant or not. In doing that you are usurping Jesus’ words that will be our judge and placing yourself on the throne to judge me.
iggy
haha, Iggy, i was totally about to quote that verse, but then i got distracted by something shiny.
this will surely not end the argument, b/c i know how things work, but allow me to speak for the secular non-traditionalist-Christian world real quick:
1. there is one side of the argument that is espousing a view of things that we, the collective “others,” despise.
2. there is another side, represented by most of the “regulars” here that, if more of the “others” world came in contact with them, we could break bread with.
nobody, and i mean, nobody, likes to be drive-by witnessed to. it’s creepy and weird, and it tends to come from people who embody NO quality you’d ever like to emulate. they’re the same types of “Christians” who write asking for prayer and support for Bibles for China, yet STILL haven’t, to my knowledge, posted any links to send aid to the earthquake victims. they’re the same people who hold giant bake sales for witnessing trips to Africa Rica to exchange meals for souls, yet are unwilling to go into their own inner cities to feed the hungry there.
the rest of free society hates people like that. oh, and they’ve got an answer for that, too. “Jeeeeesus SAID we’ll be hated in his naaaame!”
yes, well, that would only absolve people of their own behavior if Jesus had prefaced that statement with, “Now, look, what I’m telling you to do is go out and be total bastards, and because of that ye will be hated and persecuted.”
but he didn’t, so stop.
Yes, Africa Rica.
apparently i saw something shiny again.
oh, old-school tradition. I begin to disciple someone the minute I meet them.
This is way overdue but: No, I wasn’t reading the same article Nathan, the two I read didn’t mention Rob Bell. They were the second and third links in CRN’s post.
I didn’t realise he took a swing at Rob in the first article. My apologies… in my defense you didn’t actually mention Rob Bell or the attack on him in your post.
In keeping things biblical, God’s word tells us, “So faith comes by hearing, and by hearing the word of Christ” Romans 10:17 Whether it’s a cell phone, on the street, in the church or through a gospel tract, God’s word accomplishes what pleases God. God has chosen the foolish things of this world to confound the wise so be very careful about speaking against any brother or sister that shares the gospel biblically. That it is through repentance toward God and faith in Jesus Christ alone for our salvation.
^
Um, doing the “how the world sees it” thing again.
Just watched some of the videos on your blog, and words don’t describe how creepy that is.
Do you not see the people making a point of averting their glances in the opposite direction so as not to give the false impression that they want to talk to you/whoever is speaking?
Let’s go for a business model approach to this here. If you talk to five people who are receptive, and yet the other thousand you encounter walk away with their suspicions confirmed (yet again) and strengthened about what freaks Christians are, are you actually doing something worthwhile?
“Jesus did it.”
Yes, but he was Jesus.
That was a great post corey, I couldn’t agree more.
Chris,
that verse is pretty much misused as it states… Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ.
It is Christ who calls us and hearing Him that saves us… it is not our preaching that saves anyone.
Read that passage and not that Paul states that if it was by “hearing of preaching” as it is used, then the Israelites heard but did not believe… so Paul is using it as an argument against works of preaching, meaning that we do not save people by our works… it is all a work of God. You need to read it into chapter 11 to get the whole thought which most people do not do.
Romans 10: 14. How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15. And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
16. But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17. Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
18. But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.” 19. Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, “I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.”
20. And Isaiah boldly says, “I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.” 21. But concerning Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”
It then rolls into chapter 11 about Jesus being the stumbling stone…
many use the verse that it to mean we are to preach the gospel to save others. But as Paul notes the Israelites knew the Gospel and rejected it as they stumbled over Jesus Christ.
It is the Word of Jesus Christ that saves us. It is His Words that save us not our preaching. Paul’s point it to show that God put a blindness on Israel for the rejection of Jesus.
I have written more on all this here. and here and here.
Be blessed,
iggy
Just did a post that earned the “moderation queue” alert! LOL!
iggy
In spite of the lack of witnessing, in spite of abrasive witnessing, in spite of condemning witnessing, in spite of shallow witnessing, in spite of goofy witnessing, in spite of disengenuous witnessing, in spite of flawed witnessing, in spite of pragmatic witnessing, in spite of everything that passes for witnessing throughout the ages, the Holy Spirit will still call out a bride for the Son of God.
All to His glory. I agree with chris, God can use anyone who is sharing His gospel.
Amen Rick. Now that is a post I must agree with.
And isn’t that the point?
PB,
I stated that also… but you just seemed to ignore that part and want to focus on your perceived difference with me.
= ) LOL!
But you have yet to answer to the quesiton why you now accept pragmatism when it is sooooo wrong when Rick Warren does it. I guess again that points to what I mean by your “relativistic truth” you embrace. Your “truth” seems to just slide around and fit to whatever you want to believe at the time.
iggy
PB,
Do I need to repent over this one?
iggy
BTW I truly appreciate Shane Claiborne and support him in his ministry and teachings…
iggy
Iggy,
It is not pragmatism. It is sharing the Gospel. What you and corey are suggesting to me and Tony Miano is pragmatism: Does it work? How does the mall rat get discipled after hearing the message? I am simply planting seeds.
I think that the Itodyaso site, regardless of its target, is mean spirited. But it is just my opinion. Revelation 21:8
PB,
Sharing the Gospel is living your life next to the person… it is helping them grow. Yet, again you shift in your relativistic truth to change “pragmatism” to fit your own view. If “any” way is fine in how we share the Gospel and it “works” that is pragmatism…
You cannot condemn others then defend the same thing when you want to. If you set a standard that you judge others with then live it… do not promote hypocrisy, condemn Tony Miano as you would anyone else who uses “pragmatic” (whatever works) approach such as Rick Warren.
This again is the situation why I cannot accept things from many ODM’s as they speak out both sides of their mouth.
It is really sad that you are so unable to accept rebuke but think everyone else should listen to you. = I
iggy
Ken likes it… he comes there all the time.
iggy
Yes, Iggy, but it just isn’t as satisfying to the ego as cold-calling or littering tracts across a golf course. Lifestyle evangelism requires actually caring and spending a lot of time with one person, which just isn’t efficient.
Standing on a corner shouting irrelevantly at people gives one big ego rush – you get a chance to be ‘rejected for Christ’ (most of the time), and you get to ‘make converts’ without having to do any of the messy work of actually walking along side them afterward…
Iggy,
I cannot live next to everyone that I come in contact with. So should I abandon my responsibility?
Of course not. I must take advantage of every opportunity, because the time is running out.
So, Iggy, if you can sleep well at night not seeking the lost like Jesus did (Luke 19:9) then that is your business. I cannot. Tony Cannot.
You ADM’s are like war protestors, you have not done anything to protect the freedom you have, and you criticize those who fight and die so you can have that freedom. You have the freedom to come alongside or build a relationship or whatever it is you do, yet you criticize those who are in the front lines…and it is not even your army!
“Lifestyle evangelism requires actually caring and spending a lot of time with one person, which just isn’t efficient.”
Pride about one’s style or method of evangelism compromises the motivation which should selfless. I have known very few “tract passers” who don’t also seek relationships with lost people to share Christ with as well. I will never understand why someone who doesn’t pass out tracts (for example) because it is distant and cold, will criticize someone who goes out and does pass out tracts by which many have been either saved or watered.
It is just pride. Let the sowers alone regardless of the method. We could use more of all of them.
Unless the act of tract passing (which isn’t nearly as annoying as street-corner monster-shouting) tends to harden people against hearing the message in the first place. The implicit message becomes “I’ll care about you if you listen to me” instead of “I’ll care about you regardless of whether you listen to me”. The first is a sales pitch, and the second is love.
Wow. I never thought I’d see it but you just created the sentence-based version of this.
Chris L
After your ad-hominem attack on Ingrid, I question your methods of walking alongside someone in love. Your
satiremean spirited attack on her witnessing, and yoursatireabout Gospel tracts littering a golf course, you would rather make under your breath sarcastic comments about the Lord’s workers that are actually in the harvest field, rather than a gutless wonk who fires firebrands and arrows while doing nothing even close to evangelism.I use tracts to start conversations, as ice breakers, and as a witness (like on the golf course or in the bathroom) where I will not be in a few minutes, but somebody else will.
I ask the question again: Do you believe in the Holy Spirit’s ability to use the printed or spoken word? Is God’s arm too short?
I guess the Gideon’s would fall under that loveless category. So unless you can be in many places at once, attempting to reach people with printed material or other impersonal media is nothing more than a sales pitch while those who exclusively befriend sinners personally are exclusively loving.
I find the description of one’s own evangelism as the one true way of loving sinners as self righteous. Does the preacher ever preach the gospel to strangers with which he never establishes a relationship? The hand wringing about tracts hardening sinners is new to me. I guess that takes precidence over someone who reads it and the Holy Spirit uses in their life.
I just don’t get the “I have the best and only loving way to evangelize” spirit.
Chris L’s definition of love:
They don’t know that the house is burning, so let them sleep comfortably. Why disturb them?
Lets make sure the blind man is clothed and fed; but he seems happy with the direction he is walking. Lets not warn him about the cliff.
I don’t like water, and I do not want to mess up this outfit. Let the kid struggle and drown.
LOL
=)
Whatever, PB – your analogies are full of crap. There’s a difference between an emergency situation and a situation of common urgency, and you’re mixing the two just to stroke your own ego.
“Polluters for Jesus” – lets litter the golf course with tracts in the ball-washers so that we can feel good about ourselves…
Going back to the OP – what a wonderful witness to the mall security people and respect for Romans 13…
I see now why PB uses tracts given his abrasive and combative personality any sort of relationship with anyone who has a different view than himself is nearly impossible.
Having to wash your golf balls speaks to the level of your play!
Typical ADM response from Tim and Chris L
Attack the man who is speaking truth.
I guess I know the arrow hit the target.
You guys still have not answered the question: Can the Holy Spirit use it? Is God’s arm too short?
Chris L, I get no ego shots passing out tracts. It is great for when I know I cannot be there to provide a verbal witness. I also have yet to see any of the tracts be tossed out onto the golf course to litter it!
Tim, I guess just allowing people to use a church building for whatever reason is witness enough for you. So are you walking alongside the death metal hard core teen band still?
I sure hope so. They need someone like you to do it.
Pastorboy,
Thank you for illustrating the differences so clearly between ODMs and this site in such a short series of comments.
“So are you walking alongside the death metal hard core teen band still?”
Where do you think our 20 teens in the bible study came from? The hardcore metal concerts that we hold at our church…
Corey,
I was addressing Tim. I am glad to hear you are walking alongside them. It seems I am too caustic and mean and insensitive so all I can do is
distributelitter golf courses with tracts.“It is not pragmatism. It is sharing the Gospel. What you and corey are suggesting to me and Tony Miano is pragmatism: Does it work? How does the mall rat get discipled after hearing the message? I am simply planting seeds.”
What you’re missing is that I’m not talking about pragmatism. I’m talking about obedience. (I’ll speak slowly…)
1. Jesus’ command is to make disciples.
2. Part of the process is to see people repent of their sins and place their faith in Jesus (conversion).
3. Until those converts are taught how to live their lives in their newfound faith, they are not disciples.
4. Making converts is not disciples, it is making converts.
5. Cell-phone evangelism, mall preaching, golf course litter, and the like are attempts to make converts.
6. Without subsequent follow-up in teaching those who become converts by such methods, these converts do not become disciples.
7. Therefore, such methodologies, unless accompanied by a process of discipleship, are not fulfilling Jesus’ command to make disciples.
8. Therefore, those who exclusively use such methods, despite their good intentions, are not being obedient to the only COMMAND that Jesus gives in the great commission.
9. Assuming that God will just take care of it, that we should trust the Holy Spirit to do the work, begs the question. Jesus didn’t command us to trust the Holy Spirit to take care of making disciples after we make a bunch of converts. He commanded his disciples to make more disciples. By hoping that God takes care of it, we are being unfaithful and disobedient.
Corey,
I agree, but I argue that a true convert will hunger and thirst for the things of God and desire to become a disciple (learner).
Might I also remind you that statistically, a person can remember 6-7 ‘touches’ before they become a convert. These touches may include tracts, friends, family, cell phone evangelism, death metal concerts, etc.
You cannot have a disciple without first having a convert, therefore you must go, you must baptize, and you must teach all that Jesus has commanded us. This is when you have a disciple.
Right…but the exclusive use of drive-by evangelism has no room for the rest of the discipleship process, and is therefore disobedient.
And I wonder if it takes 6-7 touches because so many of those touches are offensive and inappropriate?
How can any method be disobedient that seeks to make converts and eventually disciples?
because they don’t EVER continue the process (especially if the convert is someone who simply overhears a fake conversation)
And Rick Warren is pragmatic?
PB – do the ends justify the means? Seriously – I’ve gone through that lesson with high school kids several times.
Is it OK to rob a bank if you give all of the money to missions? How can this be disobedient, when it is being done to support the Lord’s work overseas?
Is it OK to refuse to submit to authorities (Rom 13), like, say, mall security, for a good purpose? I might add, though, that in this example, the mall does not prohibit evangelism – just the style(s) chosen by this individual. I am sure that the mall would not prohibit meeting a non-Christian friend for lunch in the food court and sharing your testimony with him during the meal…
Pastorboy, do you still beat your wife?
Whoever said there was no such thing as a bad question was an idiot.
i have never encountered such an ignorant misunderstanding of the rights and responsibilities of being a United States citizen than this statement.
i am saddened that there are apparently people who buy the hard-right Republican line that people who criticize unjust wars are in fact criticizing the troops. apparently in these peoples’ minds, the true way to “support the troops” would be to allow rogue leaders to create conflicts that are UNWORTHY of the sacrifice the troops make.
as my military brother says repeatedly, American troops have fought and died for your right to be as ignorant about the issues as you possibly can.
the rest of us who are paying attention will continue to speak out on behalf of our brothers and sisters who risk their lives in our name, and will continue to hold the government to account for breaching the contract that promises to only send them into harms’ way when absolutely necessary.
PB,
You still have not noticed that a few of us did answer this a couple of times… blind?
Yet you still give no answer to your acceptance of pragmatism… you dodged it and redefined it to fit your relative theology as it relates to your definition of truth… but really never gave an answer.
Jesus taught that the Jews neighbor lived in a country south of them… you deny that you can live with some that does not live next door? I guess you need to take that up with Jesus not me.
And again with the arrogant judgmentalsim… you don’t know me or what I do or do nto do. In fact I sleep well knowing I give my all to Jesus who seeks the lost and uses me as He wills. I do nto worry as Jesus commands as it is He who draws men unto Himself as I lift Him up.
Really as you talk to me you are very abusive and come across as such a hateful person. I know you are not, but that is how you come across. You seem to not see humor in anything and attack me on every little think though you still lack the integrity to admit you are wrong at times.
You seem very unteachable to me… but then that is God’s problem and He has to deal with you on that one.
iggy
“if you can sleep well at night not seeking the lost like Jesus did ”
If that was the standard for sleeping no one can close their eyes. We all fall short.
Charles Spurgeon said this with regard to winning the lost: “Brethren, do something; do something, do something! While societies and unions make constitutions, let us win souls. I pray you, be men of action all of you. Get to work and quit yourselves like men. Old Suvarov’s idea of war is mine: `Forward and strike! No theory! Attack! Form a column! Charge bayonets! Plunge into the center of the enemy! Our one aim is to win souls; and this we are not to talk about, but do in the power of God!”
There are no words in the English language that describe a unit of measurement small enough to describe the amount of interest I have in what Spurgeon wrote about anything, what with being Christian rather than a Spurgeonian.
How can evangelism be boiled down to a method? What “method” did Jesus use? He just was obedient.
When we talk of evangelism as method, we then start talking about things like “efficiency”, “effectiveness”, and “economy”. I actually know a guy who was a missionary who made a database that figured how much money it took per conversion in every country in the world. He did this as way to show people where their money was best spent. To me this is the epitome of the marriage of modernity and Christianity – boiling down actual lives to dollars and cents in a database.
“There are no words in the English language that describe a unit of measurement small enough to describe the amount of interest I have in what Spurgeon wrote about anything”
How about – “none”.
Rick,
Quit being so pragmatic you Warrenite!
Actually I am a little bit interested, but only as interested as I would be in any other believer who wrote a long time ago to a culture that no longer exists.
Actually, Tim, I am the same way. I don’t care what the early “church fathers” believed, nor Wesley, nor Whitefield, nor Judson, nor Livingston, nor MacArthur, nor MacLaren, and especially Calvin. I only care what I believe the Holy Spirit has shown me because that is what I will give an account for.
And my systematic theology can only be described as a mongrel.
How very Restoration Movement of you.
PB,
The question really is then, as I read you who you define as the “enemy”… personally the lost are not the enemy… which seems to be what you are getting at.
iggy
Amen, the lost are not the enemy. They are captives of the enemy. They are in the midst of the enemy’s camp.
Here I am deconstructing Spurgeon.
“Amen, the lost are not the enemy. They are captives of the enemy. They are in the midst of the enemy’s camp.”
Wow…that sounds an awful lot like Christus Victor…You might want to rethink your atonement theology.
A true emergent at heart… ; )
iggy
Now that you all have found the true meaning of
witnessing, why dont you turn off your computers and go
spread the gospel in whichever method the Lord desires you to.
oh snap! you got us now!
Does anyone else find the inherent irony/hypocrisy in posting a message like this on blog comment section hilarious?
It’s liked being chastised by an Amish person via text message…
ROTFLMBO!!!
Sorry for the irony/hypocrisy since I am in a computer myself.
that’s my job “a computer”. Got to feed the family somehow.
If your job is a computer then the Irony/hipocrisy does not apply. other then that ” bombs away “.
You all sound like cry babies.
” my method is better then yours ”
” yours hurts people”
” mine is love, your’s is not ”
How can evangelism be boiled down to a method? What “method” did Jesus use? He just was obedient.
Then go and be obedient.
And now here come the response.
” Who are you to judge? You don’t know me.”
A classic rant:
Whatever, PB – your analogies are full of crap. There’s a difference between an emergency situation and a situation of common urgency, and you’re mixing the two just to stroke your own ego.
“Polluters for Jesus” – lets litter the golf course with tracts in the ball-washers so that we can feel good about ourselves…
Jose,
I don’t think that too many here disagree with you… except maybe PB…
“Go and do likewise.”
; )
iggy
Amen Jose.
BTW putting tracts in ball washers would be bad, unless they were waterproof!
Not following you,
oscarJose…Chris,
I figure you will do your research, ( he told me you would )
But sorry me and my brother (oscar) share the same work and comp. thus the same IP and same e-mail or in this case his e-mail.
Would you like for me to send you a confirmation?
or will you put me down as oscar and then go and call me a liar?
How about my own e-mail? would that make me more credible?
I guess he was right.
I didn’t believe him when he said they will strip you of your pants in there.
wow.
There really only one group of witnessers who have a legitimate platform for criticizing others, those who are so busy witnessing they have no time to criticize.
The emporer has no clothes.
So let’s critizise away!!.
who is first?
Hey, I still have pants on…so does everyone else as far as I know.
We just strip you of your pretense, hubris, and logical fallacies here…
We got the first critisism in and is phil.
what is your success rate on stripping people of their pretense, hubris and logical fallacies?
have you had any converts?
Your spelling is terrible! Just kidding.
Yes is true. i can’t spell. you got me. Oh Snap!
rick, that’s just silly… or is that satire too?;)
I just took my pants off, pre-emptively.
Which writer here is known for stealing pants?
It’s Chris L, isn’t it?
Knew it.
BTT,
sorry I forgot to follow the leader
here it goes.
I didn’t believe him when he said they will strip you of your pants in there.
****satire*****
is that better?
Nope – I’ll take your word for it. From time to time, though, we do have commenters who like to speak from different “personas” (*cough*Iggy*cough*Itodyaso*cough*). So, as much as we dislike folks hiding behind anonymity, we try to make it clear when we identify potential “multiple-personalities”.
No need.
Not sure I understand the reference to stripping you of your pants…
As for the whole ****satire**** thing, I think I’m going to request seeing the English Lit scores of anyone attempting to use this, because I’m seeing more examples of what it isn’t in comments than what it is. Probably the key item is context – because without it, satire makes absolutely no sense.
Sadly, sarcasm is much easier to formulate, but has much less utility than satire – and sarcasm is what keeps getting the mislabel…
Rick Frueh says – “Without a connection to something else, satire becomes tangentially confusing. In basic language –
You will miss the point.”
Rick Frueh through Chris Lyons says -
“Probably the key item is context – because without it, satire makes absolutely no sense.”
In the mouth of two witnesses. I expect royalties, my unbaptized friend!
– I am getting tired of hearing about these evangelistic methods that don’t require a relationship with the outsider.–
In reading the book of Acts, I am struck by the fact that the first evangelistic outreach was by a bunch of people who had been staying in an upper room for several days who come out and preach to a bunch of people, many of whom were not from that city.
So, were the apostles wrong and not filled with the spirit when they preached the Gospel publicly as recorded in Acts 2? Should they have done it in quieter, more relational (by your definition) ways?
Our does pointing out that about 3,000 people repented that day make it “pragmatism”?
I try and never criticize another man’s witnessing. Jesus rebuked the disciples for finding fault with a group that was witnessing outside their group. Let us pray God will use both harsh and shallow gospel presentations to draw sinners unto Himself.
I think there is a good bit of wisdom in that, Rick. I have nothing against a relational way of evangelizing. But I have nothing against other ways of doing it, too.
As far as using indirect means, like the cell phone, there is room for debate on that, I think. One of the few things in Tony Jones’ book that I agreed on was his distaste for a form of evangelism that used a “survey” to gain entrance to student’s dorm rooms so the “surveyors” could talk about to them. Assuming that is what really happened (a bit of an assumption), he was right be put off by such ways of doing it.
But does talking into a cell phone in such a way equal the same kind of thing? I could go this way or that on it.
In general, I think the cell phone thing is creative! Of course there has to be balance so you are not trying to be obnoxious and creating your own “persecution”, but all in all I might try it. As long as you are actually responding to your friend’s question (what is the gospel) what is the harm?
Street witnessing, tract passing, sign holding, and any other watering ministries have been used of God. The wind blows, we do not know where, we just need to be a sail!
Rick,
IF there was a true persecution and the guy did not already have a reputation that warranted the security guard to call when he is sighted… then I have no issue or feelings what so ever… but with all that into account, I just see another obnoxious Christian giving the rest of us a bad name and making it harder for us to go to malls and witness freely.
iggy
I do find the idea of being “persecuted” by a mall security guard pretty funny. It seems like the premise of a Monty Python skit, really.
“Now stay out of The Gap, you Jesus Freaks!”
Help! I’m being repressed!
I witness to Amanda who works at Manchu Wok everytime I’m at the Mall. It started innocently enough…
“Hey Amanda”
“How’s your day going”
“Pretty good…It’s been a rough week though”
“Sorry to hear that. What’s been going on”?
“My boyfriend and I broke up”
“Sorry again”.
We had conversations like this for almost a month when I went there. Over the course of our conversations Amanda learned that I was a Youth Pastor and began to ask me to pray for her.
About 2 weeks ago she started attending our youth group and church. No cell phone conversation required. Except she does text me questions that she has about Jesus, so technically I guess I am doing cell phone discipleship.
Great, chris.
I’m of the persuasion that listening in on other people’s conversations is a vice, not a virtue, and to carry on a conversation with the hopes of encouraging others to listen in is nothing short of the encouragement of vice.
Thanks…I hope that my story is seen only as my preferred method of evangelism and not how much better it is than other peoples preferred method.
I do think though that all of us who do evangelism at some level should be evaluating the effectiveness. Why would you continue to do something that doesn’t work.
Let me tell you the tales of your life,
of your love and the cut of the knife,
the tireless oppression, the wisdom instilled,
the desire to kill or be killed.
Let me sing of the losers who lie in the street as the last bus goes by.
The pavements are empty: the gutters run red — while the fool toasts his god in the sky.
There is much work to be done in the dead fields…
Just so ya’ll know, I am at the airport (MSP and LAX) most of the day, so I will be trying out different methods.
Chris, your testimony mirrors mine in my town most of the time. I share with people in restaurants, Wal-Mart..etc. that I see all the time. I like praying for my servers, for example, I ask them when I am returning thanks for food if they have anything I can pray for them for.
Of course, I also use tracts, open air, one to ones, and I think I may try cell phone evangelism this weekend at the Ambassadors Academy.
Any way I can to get the message out by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Then John I must ask why are you so adamant that unless someone is proclaiming the gospel overtly at every opportunity they are being disobedient?
Conversely on your blog you have stated that some of the methods you use have a caused people to be “standoffish” when you approach.
Do you think this is good effective witnessing?
I mean no disrespect I’m genuinely curious about your thoughts on this.
Really I just see using gimmicks to reach people as a bit silly. Show me one gimmick in the bible… did Paul us a gimmick?
“Barnabas?”
“Yes Paul?
“Those pagans are pretty mean, so I have an idea! Let’s walk down to the market and pretend we don’t know each other and pretend we are having a conversation on how someone will get saved… sounds cool huh?”
“Wow Paul, you are really a super Apostle!”
“Thanks Barny… whatever works you know.”
Chris,
Thanks for asking.
I always start off with the making a connection. I take every opportunity to share the Gospel if there is time, or if the person with whom I am speaking can take the time while they are at work. An example of this comes when I am in a full service restaurant. I will be friendly, engage the server in conversation, and order lots of refills of diet coke. Each time they come back, I share a little more of the Gospel (after I pray for them when I pray for the meal). If the place is really busy, I leave a great tip and a tract with my number for follow up. In a small town, I frequently get the same server several times. One time, a server sat down with my wife and I and shared about an answered prayer that we had prayed for. It was really cool.
The stand offishness has come after I have established a rapport, and have shared the Gospel with them. I believe in God’s sovereignty; He is the author and the finisher of the faith, I am only responsible to share the message to the best of my ability by the Holy Spirit. When a person comes to a knowledge of how he or she stands before God, it is not always a pretty result. The one person I think about was in my home for a couple of hours and we had a great conversation, a lot of give and take. He left knowing where he stands. He was very comfortable in his church going before he was in my home. He is no longer comfortable! But he has heard the truth, and I know God is working on his conscience.
This is the thing that many Christians fear about evangelism, a loss of relationships, of status, and standing in the community. I think some of that is rooted in a misguided love for people and a fear of man. Jesus said not to fear what man can do- he can only destroy the body. We must fear God, rather than fear man, as Peter said. Our primary love must be for God, and out of that love comes obedience, and a compassion that swallows the fear of man, and desires to see all men in a right relationship with God.
This is kind of my feeling, too. I went on a couple of Spring Break mission trips with Campus Crusade when I was in college, and they sent us out with these surveys that were meant to guide people a certain way. First, I was always uncomfortable with the premise of approaching someone by telling them you were taking a survey, when you really had no intention of really collecting data. We didn’t do anything with the surveys, other than throw them away.
I don’t like the attitude that there are “no rules” when it comes to evangelism. I’m not so much talking about breaking laws. Obviously Paul wasn’t averse to breaking laws. The state doesn’t execute people for not breaking laws. I’m talking more about being dishonest about who you are and what your motives are.
Personally, I would be pretty ticked if I were a heathen and I found out the only reason someone was talking to me was because I was their evangelism “project”. Also, I would be pretty angry with getting handed a tract. Like the late Mitch Hedberg said, handing someone a flyer of any sort is like saying, “here, throw this away for me.”
John thanks for the response.
It is difficult to discern the motives of people…is it not?
I personally don’t like Open Air preaching but I don’t doubt that some people are effective when Open Air preaching. However I would refrain from assuming that their motivation is a misguided hatred of people and a fear of God.
They are not hating people
I am saying with those people I have spoken to who are afraid of people’s opinions or afraid of a broken relationship over sharing their faith. We need to love God and fear Him more than people, and before people.
Personally I think this is a listening to the spirit issue. If God says ‘Go do this’ then it’s going to be fruitful. He had people doing far wackier things in the Bible than talking loudly on a cell phone. The fruits will demonstrate whether it’s from God or not, and ultimately it’s pretty harmless if it’s not.
Relational witnessing is what we are commanded to do already in scripture at every opportunity. I don’t see them as mutually exclusive.
If I do a day of prayer for Ken to be blessed, and he responds with calling me his nemesis… I think that is hate in my book.
iggy
Matt P,
I agree
“I pushed him away from church and you won’t see ME loving people indiscriminately!”
VOMIT.