While eating my Cheerios this morning and watching Good Morning America I caught an interview with Kirk Cameron from Growing Pains fame and subsequently Way of the Master (WoTM). Kirk was talking about his new book “Still Growing” (an excerpt can be found here)
With this opportunity to share the Gospel with millions of people worldwide; Kurt chose to spend a majority of his time talking about his exploits as a teen heart-throb. When asked what changed his life he didn’t shout “JESUS” or recite John 3:16. He also left out the verse that says Jesus is the way, truth and the life. Nor did he take the interviewer down the Romans road. He simply said “I realized that there has to be more to life than this…I started asking questions…I let the Gospel influence my daily decisions”.
His publicist also just announced that Kirk was invited to the “Seeds of Compassion ‘09″ event.
***satire
*Update*
260 Comments(+Add)
“His publicist also just announced that Kirk was invited to the “Seeds of Compassion ‘09? event. ”
***funny alert***
I knew it was not a real conversion…
Oh wait, I just noticed it says satire…
Doh!
iggy
Actually I read the whole interview/whatever it was that was four pages long… and not one mention of Jesus anywhere!
No where is Ingrid… she needs to know about this lost opportunity!
***satire***
( or is it?)
iggy
I knew it! He is leading us all into the New Age one world religion brand of the AntiChrist’s New Spirituality!
Let’s analyze what he said…
_________
CAMERON: “I realized that there has to be more to life than this…
RA: HE realized it? Hmmm, how SELF-ish. I thought the Holy Spirit made us realize truth.
Scripture tells us we are dead, sinful, wretched worms before God, incapable of realizing anything without the Lord of Hosts revealing it to us. So why didn’t Cameron say: “God showed me by the power of his Holy Spirit that there was more to life”?
Obviously, Cameron is either ashamed to mention God, or his so-called realization is merely of the self and carnal…..and notice, BTW, that he DIDN’T say that what he realized was that there was a one true God and he was a sinner in need of forgiveness! He just said “more to life” – that opens the door to any religious belief. Clearly, Kirk Cameron is now pushing pluralism!!!!
_________
CAMERON: I started asking questions…
RA: Again, we see how ashamed he is of the Christian faith. Why didn’t he say, I started praying? And who was he asking his questions of: Buddha? Allah? His inner higher New Age self? Clearly, Cameron is simply trying to direct others to ask questions, rather than directing them to the King of kings and Lord of lords!!! Once more, we see pluralism and ecumenism rearing up to take hold of the world and deceive the nations!
________
CAMERON: I let the Gospel influence my daily decisions
RA: That’s it? Just “influence” his life? New Ager Eckhart Tolle and Oprah Winfrey allow that!
No, no, no! For the TRUE Christian, the Bible is God’s inerrant, Holy Spirit inspired, authority of our life and beliefs. It’s far more than JUST some influence. He is OBVIOUSLY putting the Bible on equal ground with the Koran, Bhagavad Gita, Kabbalah, Upanishads, and other so-called “holy” writings. HERETIC!!!!!!!!!
*****satire*******
Gee, this fun. Can we play some more?
R. Abanes
Pssstt..
Richard….
I am always looking for a new writer on my blog…
Ahem…
Go back to whatever you were doing.
iggy
“more to life” ?
Where is the deep conviction of sin that has separated him from a Holy God? Where are the Ten Commandments that are necessary for a true conversion?
“I let the gospel influence my daily decisions”
Much of the reformed parlance is a direct misrepresentation about what they say they believe. I heard MacArthur this very morning say
You don’t lead anyone to Christ. And it is so wonderful that all his four children were of the elect. How convenient. I am amazed at the disproprtion of elect children are born to believers while the Iranian children can all go to hell. God is so wonderfully organized.
Alert – some satire meant to show the absurdity of some men’s theology.
You guys are hypocrites
****Satire****
Wow, this asterik thing really works cool!
I can slander people and just add an asterik and it makes it okay!!
Do you even know the definition of slander? Who’s being slandered here?
All Chris is saying is that the ODM crowd has one set of standards for people they like and another set for the people they deem heretical.
So, PB – what exactly is it you are satirizing, though?
An example of what satire is *NOT*:
What satire IS:
The problem with the first one (and your sophomoric outburst) is that you have to say something that you don’t believe or that people familiar with you wouldn’t be surprised/shocked/outraged you would say…
Without a connection to something else, satire becomes tangentially confusing. In basic language –
You will miss the point.
***not satire***
**DING DING DING***
We have a winner!
Why is PB pretending like he needs asterisks to slander someone? He’s never needed them in the past.
slander: “Slander is an untruthful oral (spoken) statement about a person that harms the person’s reputation or standing in the community. . . . If the statement is made via broadcast media — for example, over the radio or on TV — it is considered libel, rather than slander, because the statement has the potential to reach a very wide audience.”
satire: “In satire, human or individual vices, follies, abuses, or shortcomings are held up to censure by means of ridicule, derision, burlesque, irony, or other methods, ideally with the intent to bring about improvement.” (WIKI)
_________
EXAMPLES OF SLANDER -
- “Richard’s intent is more monetary than spiritual.”
- Abanes “doesn’t really believe the Bible at all.”
- Abanes is “part of the post-modern group that believe if you ‘dialogue’ with people in such false satanic based religions [as Mormonism] long enough that you can somehow bridge your differences and that the end result will be a new truth based on the ‘best’ of both religions, a ‘New Understanding.’”
_________
EXAMPLES OF SATIRE:
- See OP and following comments
The use of asterisks indicate a punctuational communication of the “I’m rubber you’re glue” principle!
Whatever.
PB,
You are funny!
*** satire***
or is it?
Can you tell these guys to repent?
***more satire***
or is it!?!
; )
iggy
The real question is why are you so upset when you are or others are held to your own standards? Hmmm isn’t a hypocrite one that sets one standard for others then does not do them themselves?
***not satire, but an earnest question wanting a honest answer***
So… postmodern!
LOL!
iggy
Whatever? Definitely PM.
His truth is apparently his truth and my truth is my truth! There is no objective definition of slander.
There is no objective definition of slander or satire on this blogline. It is all based on whose team you are on.
If yo are an ODM, it is all slander
If you are an ADM, it is all satire.
I hold the standard at what God says, Iggy. From his word. Not the gobbelty goop (actual professional term) that comes out of most churches today.
Slander – “You are a moron”
Libel – “You are a moron”
Invective – “You are a moron”
Good natured humor – “You are a moron”
Hate speech – “You are a moron”
Parental guidance – “You are a moron”
Political banter – “You are a moron”
Sibling rivalry – “You are a moron”
Satire – ***You are a moron***
Please update your data banks!
Rick, PERFECT!
Now that is funny!
Satire or not, the article and comments following essentially use examples of how God worked in Kirk’s life as elements for you to make a “joke.” Is that treating God respectfully?
If you believe that ODM’s are faultily criticizing others, thus making a parody of how God has worked in the criticized ones’ lives, thus not treating God Himself with respect . . . then maybe you should be careful that you aren’t doing the same thing – treating God Himself with disrespect – in a different way.
PB,
Who exactly do you think is being slandered here?
Seriously, folks.
Kirk Cameron is an example of a man who has been saved by Grace, and has had his life turned upside down because he chooses to follow Jesus.
His professional career has been sidetracked, he does not get the calls he used to because people in Hollywood know of his faith. It was sorta like being a communist in the 50’s~ how times have changed.
Kirks message, and God’s message is simple: Man, left to his own devices has no hope. We are wretched sinners. We have all broken God’s commandments.
We have all lied, thus we are all liars.
We have all lusted, and committed adultery in thought, if not in deed.
We have all made idols, some still do it today, creating a god in their own image, of their own opinion, a god that they are comfortable with that is not the God of the Bible.
We have not always loved God with all of heart, soul, strength, and mind. Certainly e have not loved our neighbors as ourselves.
We have transgressed the law. And thus, we are all in big trouble. All liars will have therir place in the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8) No adulterer will enter God’s kingdom (1 Corinthians 6:9)
Without repentance, you also will perish (Luke 13:3,5) Because God has appointed a day that he will judge (Acts 17:31) And we all will face judgement (Hebrews 9:27) So, what will YOU say on the day of judgement?
“I fed the poor’
‘I blogged against evil ODM’s’
‘I defended fellow ‘believers’ against attacks’
‘I wrote satire’
‘I did social justice’
‘I built relationships with people so I could tell them about Jesus’
Whatever you say, if even one transgression of the law has occured, even one small lie, you will be judged.
That is why Jesus came. Jesus came and he paid the penalty for your sin. You can be justified (declared not-guilty) if you will repent, by confessing (admitting, agreeing with God that you have sinned) repenting (turning from that sin, utterly forsaking it) and placing all your trust in Christ.
That is what Kirk Cameron stands for. That is his message, straight from God.
And that is what all Christians should stand for. And proclaim.
Phil,
Kirk Cameron is being slandered. I agree with Amy; God is also being slandered.
PB,
Again, why do you whine so much when someone from your favorite list is held to your own standard and fails? It seems so surreal that you just go on and on how others are “slandering” someone when you give no grace to so many!
In fact you are a parody of yourself…
iggy
The article obviously references SOLs criticism of Ravi Zacharius offering a prayer without Jesus name and the Seeds of Compassion conference. I do not consider them analogously equal since Ravi was garunteed a chance to preach Christ later and the pastors at the SoC conference were not.
But Ravi was attacked with an apostate tag on the post. Chris was making the point why wasn’t Kirk exposed as well. Charles Wesley’s hymn “OGod our Hekp in Ages Past” does not mention Jesus or even alludes to the gospel. See? It lifts up the Creator rather than the Redeemer, as does many of the Psalms.
I am indeed a fool for Christ Iggy.
Now THAT is funny.
PB,
we all are…
iggy
Patorboy,
You’re not addressing anything we’re talking about. You’re preaching. No one here has actually said ANYTHING disparaging against Cameron’s ACTUAL beliefs or faith. You don’t get that?
What we were doing – and let me explain it again – was dissecting Cameron’s words in the same the way the ODMs dissect the words of their targets. By doing so, it was our hope to show the unfair and absurd nature of such dissection of words!
See?
______
AMY: the article and comments following essentially use examples of how God worked in Kirk’s life as elements for you to make a “joke.” Is that treating God respectfully?
RA: Please see above. NO ONE is making fun of ANYTHING in Cameron’s life. That’s the POINT!!!!! Everything Cameron said was perfectly acceptable! But what we were doing was taking his words, and analyzing them per the methods used by ODMs!! Again, the hope was to show how wrong it is to do what they do. THAT is called satire:
“In satire, human or individual vices, follies, abuses, or shortcomings are held up to censure by means of ridicule, derision, burlesque, irony, or other methods, ideally with the intent to bring about improvement.” (WIKI)
R. Abanes
P: Kirk Cameron is being slandered. I agree with Amy; God is also being slandered.
RA: WHAT? I can’t believe I have to actually spell this out – NO ONE BELIEVES ANYTHING WE SAID ABOUT CAMERON!!!!! The issue is how ODMs analyze the words of their targets.
RA
Seriously,
So is Ravi Zacharius.
Who is slandering Cameron? No one that I see. I know a few of us have issues with his particular style of evangelism, but none of us has said anything about his character or doubted the veracity of his testimony.
If you don’t understand the satirical nature of this piece, then I really don’t know what else to say. The piece really doesn’t have anything to do with Cameron himself. Chris is just pointing out that if say someone like Doug Pagitt had been on GMA and said the same thing, certain people would be all over him for not saying the name of Jesus.
Richard,
I don’t know, he left out the Name of Jesus… and did not end the piece in “Jesus Name”…
iggy
Haha, NO.
He doesn’t get the calls because he’s a crappy actor whose “career” beyond being a child star would have faded into obscurity just like his sister D. J. Tanner.
He knows that the Christian media sets much lower standards.
I mean his autobiography just seemed to be so much about himself… again Jesus seemed left out.
iggy
Rick,
At least when Ingrid or Ken write, they are doing it with a heart of seriousness and concern and a genuine desire to tell the truth. As humans they may not always do it perfectly, but I think their motives are pure.
When people write OP’s here, when they are wrong or cross the line, or want to say something but not really, they just call it humor and satire. Its like Iggy’s alter-ego Itodyaso. Its like he has a hatred for Ken and Ingrid, but he can’t just admit it, so he makes a ’satirical’ site which is a parody or a characiture of what he sees to be an ODM and in doing so mischaracterizes what they are really saying, thus telling lies.
I understand satire and sarcasm. I understand the use of the language to make a point. But it is disengenuous to say something that you want to say in an indirect way and call it satire. The author does not like Kirk Cameron, and what he stands for (biblical evangelism) so why not just say it?
I think they just would get less blog hits.
If the OP actually believed that Kirk was denying Jesus, it would be slander. He even went out of his way to make the satire OBVIOUS.
In the same way, saying that Rob Bell and Doug Pagitt denied Jesus in the Seeds of Compassion event would be slander if someone actually wrote that as being truth…
The fact that you REFUSE to see the difference speaks to your discredited methodology and reveals the hatred of Christ in your double-standard.
I see no “joke” in it – satire is different than a joke.
I have a great deal of respect for Mr. Cameron (and also found his comments in defense of Ms. Cyrus on O’Reilly a few weeks ago very helpful to the conversation). I don’t agree with some of his methodologies (with WoTM), but that doesn’t mean I don’t think he’s a respectable brother in Christ.
What I find truly astonishing in all of this is the *clearly revealed* double-standard of ODM’s when it comes to applying the same measuring stick to “their team” as to those they criticize.
So, again, the ends justify the means – talk about a backwards gospel, “pastor”-boy!
So, it’s OK to lie and slander if your heart is one of “seriousness and concern”. Wow… Situational ethics 101
I don’t know about Chris, but even though I’ve been critical of things from Kirk and WoTM in the past, I don’t dislike him or that he stands for Christ. Disagreeing over methods isn’t the same as disagreeing over brotherhood.
The only reason Chris selected Kirk Cameron is because a) he’s been clearly “vetted” by ODM’s as OK; and b) his history in the public eye is similar to many who are condemned by the ODM’s.
Again, PB, you attribute motives to me that are not there… honestly that is slanderous of you to keep stating I ahve hatred toward Ken or Ingrid.
Ken stated that I am his nemesis… I never have and never will state that Ken is my enemy. As far as Ingrid she has attacked me and yet I cry out to all to pray for both these people.
Please do not slander me with your assertions of what you think my motives are.
I will add this. If I.Todyaso offends you, it must be because he holds your standard up better than Ken, Ingrid and yourself… and that must feel condemning to you. It is a mirror and you see what you see… others laugh… some get angry.
Most write to me and thank me for pointing out how stupid it all is. Which it is when we all stand before Jesus. So before you look into my heart, check your own.
iggy
I never said it was okay to slander, Chris. I said that it is not their intent. I said that they approach their writings as serious rather than satire. You would do well to do the same.
Your words turn on yourself, Chris L- You are so clearly against Ken and Ingrid ( and me) that you cannot see when ‘ODM’s’ are being slandered.
You guys are just hit hungry, thats why you make such outrageous headlines.
I guess I am obtuse. It sounded serious to me until I saw the term ’satire’.
I think chris (author) likes Cameron. The entire post was about some ODMs over the top posts about anyone. Aside from the posts about people like Miley Cyrus etc, to absolutely take Ravi Z. apart and almost calling him an apostate because he was finessing the system in order to get a chance to preach Christ is unconscionable.
That was the point of this post, not slander ing KC but pointing to the selective hypocrisy of others. Of course Kirk was attempting to sell his book and I’m sure the gospel is in it. See, finessing the system.
that would be a major clue to not get so angry… btw I am praying that you get over your angry spirit… I was delivered from it so I know what God can do.
iggy
That’s an example of unintentional satire.
Iggy,
I think I will wait until I am in Billings to talk to you ever again. You frustrate me to no end, not because of a heart of self examination (which I do daily) but because it seems like to me all you want to do is to destroy the body of Christ with your heartless and ugly attacks. Thats what I see, right or wrong.
Let God be true and every blog a liar!
PB: I never said it was okay to slander, Chris. I said that it is not their intent.
RA: It IS their intent after they have been corrected and told that what they are saying is false – then continue to state what is false. That is intentional slander. It is also intentional slander to make accusations against a person’s character/integrity with NO proof whatsoever. That is intentional slander. God hates it.
And this is coming from someone who actively defends people like Ken and Ingrid. Wow…all I can say is wow…
So if I do not intend to sin, but I do anyway, that’s A-OK because “my heart is in the right place”?
Most of the time, our approach is the same. Last Friday, I chose heavy satire as a vehicle (for probably the first time in a year) not “to be funny” or to be any less serious or concerned. Rather, I chose it because the opportunity to effectively demonstrate the sanctimonious hypocrisy involved with a significant portion of ODM-ery was perfect in Ingrid’s ‘error’. It was not ‘humor’ for laughs, but rather to demonstrate a point with a hope for change.
In the same way, Chris saw a similar example with KC’s recent interview. Either you really don’t get the nuance here, or you are being purposely obtuse. It’s your choice…
Sorry, did not mean to make you angry…
I am not sure i want to meet you… you seem to not be the type of person I would hang with… I mean I had one impression of you on the “video” you seemed to be a different person than here… but now, it seems you are just mean angry and hateful.
My prayers are with you. I am praying about this meeting… you can still email me with the details, but seriously I am a bit afraid that you are out of control. I already have one crazy in town who spreads lies about how I got him fired from his job… after he lied about how I was going to sue the college he worked at. I don’t need to go invite people that obviously hate me as you do to come and tell me how much they hate me. i am not into abusive people.
iggy
The last comment was for PB.
“I never said it was okay to slander”
OK, I’m declaring “Slander Day”! (Today I am 56 years old) In celebration of my birthday, anyone can slander anyone else. To begin, let me say that Richard Abanes is a hopeless drunk.
There…I’ve primed the pump!!
Happy Birthday, Rick! Today is my youngest’s birthday, as well…
Rick Frueh steals freshly baked pies from old ladies!
RICK: To begin, let me say that Richard Abanes is a hopeless drunk.
RA: Let’s get this right – a hopeless, GAY, drunk who believes Mormonism is biblical. (You really need to get your slander perfected).
RA
Iggy is the real Unabomber, they have the wrong guy. Look out, Montana!
Stop the terror… is really straight!
Rick…
Shhhh don’t tell them that! That is true!
iggy
Ken and Ingrid discern, right or wrong, according to what they read and what they know from the scripture. Most of it is right-on, though I disagree with some of it.
That does not give me the right to slur their names. I can question their intent, but I cannot backstab them.
Thats what this site should be called: Backstabbers.info
RA, Its the same with me and Rick Warren.
I believe Rick Warren started with the best of intentions. I believe he loved God and wanted to reach people with God’s love. I disagree with a lot of what he has done over the years (PDC, PDL) but I believe he did not so any of it out of a heart desiring to disrespect God or hurt people. I simply think that along the way he has become more people/program focussed.
That does not give me the right to slur his name. But I can call into question his methods .
Question Ken and Ingrid’s research. Prove them wrong from the Bible, or show written or recorded proof of your assertions. But don’t slur their name, or make fun of their church, or call them something they are not. It is not Christ-like.
Iggy hasn’t paid his taxes in 10 years.
PastorBoy and MacLaren are co-authoring a new book.
Richard…
Again… that is not slander… where are you guys getting this info… are you prophets?
iggy
Chris Lyons was never baptized.
I just can’t find Caesar… Jesus said render unto Caesar and i take Jesus literal.
iggy
Iggy,
I am not a violent or hate filled person. Unless you want to have a thumb war.
PB,
Show me where have ever made fun of them or made personal attacks on them. Seriously, if you can show us, I believe any of us would apologize. We purposely avoid making personal attacks.
BTW, by “us” I mean the writers here, not the commenters. We don’t control what commenters say, although we do usually point out when someone is out of line.
Richard Abanes is really Kay Warren…
Rick,
is that slander? I didn’t see the astericks.
Ken Silva used to be a long haired Jesus Freak who played guitar and sang (he has a good voice) contemporary Christian songs.
Oh, that’s not slander, that is true!
Rick Frueh doesn’t clean his toenails.
Phil,
Please. I thought I was obtuse.
IGGY – ROFL. Now everyone knows why no one has ever seen us together.
RA
Phil…
At least this time you did not bring up my name…
iggy
Rick picks his scabs and eats them.
PB is obtuse…
Oh… is that wrong?
iggy
Rick,
Actually, Ken does some good stuff ( I am refering to music)
Richard Abanes is on Rick’s secret payroll to seek and destroy all who have the audacity to disagree with PD.
Iggy is living postmodern in Montana which means he has running water and indoor plumbing.
JohnD
This is supposed to be satire!
So, I assume this means you don’t have evidence to back up your claim.
PB,
Was that slander?… I am so obtuse sometimes. Sometimes I am chartreuse… but that’s another story.
iggy
John MacArthur is not the head of his household.
we just deconstructed it before we put it in…
I have plenty of evidence. Just comb the comments and the OA’s and you will see it.
I still contend the most recent article on Ingrid from Chris L was originally a ad hominem hit piece and not satire.
Happy Birthday Rick!
Ken Silva is never been photographed because he is really Brian McLaren trying to gain sympathy for the emerging church.
Today is really not Rick’s birthday. He habitually lies about that.
Iggy,
Now thats funny. :=) LOL
PB,
no it was satire from me and it was mean spirited… against myself.
Tim Reed is a Buddhist monk.
Yes we still understand that you maintain your original slanderous remarks which accuse Chris L and his wife of lying despite having no evidence of such.
Rick Frueh is a closeted papist who believes in paedo-baptismal regeneration
Chris Lyon’s secretly loves to dance like Michael Jackson’s thriller.
Rick,
I only have the physique of a Buddhist monk.
For the record I have never said Zan is a liar.
JOHND: Richard Abanes is on Rick’s secret payroll to seek and destroy all who have the audacity to disagree with PD.
RA: That one’s been used already. Try again.
…and you would be wrong.
How is it that all of us were able to see as a satirical piece from the get-go?
nc – I am coming out of the closet. I have issued many opinions that are considered bulls!
Iggy is actually John MacArthur’s long lost son…
Kay’s secret payroll?
PB can’t decide to become a Calvinist because he is still trying to figure out if he is a Supralapsarianist or Infralapsarianist.
Rick Abanes is just a fabrication by Lighthouse Trails Ministries to push sales at their site.
iggy is just a 10 year old with dial up access.
Mrs. Schlueter must address her husband as “lord”.
Daniel Chew flunked mechanical drawing.
Iggy,
I am the one that says that God planned Christ’s Sacrifice from eternity past.
Phil,
As I said before, if an ADM writes it, it is satire.
If an ODM writes it, it is slander
It all depends which ‘team’ you are on.
No, it depends on your reading comprehension skills or your unwillingness to accept the truth…
What a bunch of crap. So far you’ve got one data point in which anyone here wrote satire that was misinterpreted. On the other hand we’ve got article after article, and comment after comment from ODMs which are slander, and even when they’ve been objectively called on it usually the only thing that happens is the article gets pulled without notice instead of a retraction and apology.
Tim…
Sorry was that last comment satire?
Tim Reed daily sands down the horns on his head…
iggy
The fact that Mrs. Schlueter was willing to overlook the fact that someone who works for a cult enjoyed the radio program seems incongruent with much of what she is unwilling to overlook in others. Chris Lyons post was presented in a satirical way to illustrate that point.
Simple, very simple.
Mandy Reed has big problems with her pastor.
Rick Frueh looks really good in this
I look good in everything! I wear that dress when I go drag queen witnessing!
I thought Ricks hair was shorter
Rick, when I lose weight i want it back ok?
PB: As I said before, if an ADM writes it, it is satire.
If an ODM writes it, it is slander
RA: Wow, your mind just REFUSES to get it, huh?
Here, let me try again, because I am finding this interesting and I am curious.
PLEASE tell me what you don’t understand or agree with here.
1. If you say a lie about someone and are serious – it’s slander, either intentionally or unintentionally, especially after you’ve been corrected and still decide to spread the untruth = ODMs.
2. When you deliberately make a false statement and recognize it as such, doing so in the hopes of show how others are wrong/absurd in making the same KIND of accusations, then you are using SATIRE to make a point to bring change by pointing out the error you are copying in an absurd fashion = AODMs
Whew. Let’s try this again. (hits send button).
RA
Richard Arbanes is on meth!
So what does it make it that I (the author of the piece) obviously pointed to it being satirical prior to posting it?
For the record I do like Kirk Cameron and I like most of what he does with WoTM.
Plus I’ve still got my autographed cover of TigerBeat with him wearing a members only jacket.
Richard Abanes finally gets an ODM to understand something…
OK that might have been mean… sorry Richard.
iggy
PB accuses iggy of correct doctrine!
Richard Abanes is NOT purpose driven!
OK, PB, that is below the belt!!
Kirk Cameron secretly hates bananas…
exactly.
Especially chocolate dipped frozen bananas
Rick
Maybe if I wrote it like this:
****Richard Abanes is NOT purpose driven****
****satire****
PB is a ODM that writes satire…
It seems from this, Chris, that just the title is satire.
So what did he really say, or not say?
It seems to me that he didn’t write the article you linked, so, I wonder if he did actually speak about Jesus. If he did, would this stop being satire and become slander.
I still cannot understand why people who call themselves Christians, and who say that they are defending against this sort of attack, go ahead and attack a family man and an evangelist who is as real as it gets in hollywood.
And Richard, I don’t need another definition of Slander and Satire. It falls on deaf ears with me, sort of like Iggy and Doug Pagitts definition of universalism.
Chris, I cannot judge your intents. I am sorry if it seems that way to you or any other commenter. It just seems to me that people are saying hateful lies and calling it satire.***
***opinion
So what I’ve learned from this all is…
ODMs slander…and mean it (ie, are ’serious’)
“ADMs” try to show this fallacy by satire (using the same tactics, to show the absurdity of it all, but not meaning it, ie, satire). And in my opinion, it’s worked well to show me the insanity of it all.
Got it. Thanks guys.
PB,
You do not understand satire in the least, if you did you would not have written anything like this.
PB, you don’t get it. Okay, maybe you do, but are just acting like this because you never are wrong. Werrr…
Okay so…anyone the ODMs don’t like, get slandered. But when Kirk Cameron (on ‘their side) does the same thing that say…Rob Bell might do, ie, not mention Jesus in an interview, he get’s the “AOK”. Whereas if it were Rob Bell, he’d be slandered and dismantled.
How do you NOT see this? Are you so theologically entrenched, or enraptured with the ODMs, that you can’t possibly ever be wrong?
How can this be?
Tim,
quit falsely judging me. I understand satire. I think it is being used improperly here. Why not be honest and just say how you feel?
Why not just say Kirk Cameron appeared on GMA and didn’t witness about Jesus, isn’t that horrible?
I guess it just sounds racier to lie and say he denies Jesus and call it satire.
Perhaps the reason you cannot discern Chris’ staire, PB, is because there is no discernment in your heart? Kind of like the way you prooftext scripture when you’re looking for the blood of folks like Bell, Warren, etc…
KC was not attacked. Context, context, context… If this were not so OBVIOUSLY a mirror image of Ingrid/Ken’s diatribes against Bell/Warren/Cyrus/etc. (name the Christian on a public stage that doesn’t use the podium of the moment to give the Roman Road), then you might have a case, but since you acknowledge that a) we’re Christians; and b) that we defend against such attacks; and given that c) this is pretty much the modus operandi of the ODM’s; it only naturally follows that d) perhaps the author really isn’t talking about Kirk Cameron here…
Ya think?
Joe C
I didnt see the interview, I am waiting for the video.
I can truthfully judge that you don’t understand satire because you think the article was about Cameron. You don’t understand satire and every false judgment you’ve rained down about the two satirical articles that have appeared recently testifies to that fact.
PB: It falls on deaf ears with me…
RA: THAT is painfully obvious.
And no, you STILL don’t seem to get it, as evidenced by your remark: “I still cannot understand why people who call themselves Christians, and who say that they are defending against this sort of attack, go ahead and attack a family man and an evangelist who is as real as it gets in hollywood.”
Seriously — where are you??????
Did you not read my statement: “No one here has actually said ANYTHING disparaging against Cameron’s ACTUAL beliefs or faith. You don’t get that?”
And did you not read: “I can’t believe I have to actually spell this out – NO ONE BELIEVES ANYTHING WE SAID ABOUT CAMERON!!! The issue is how ODMs analyze the words of their targets.”
What are you talking about??!!! (This is like the Twilight Zone – I mean, it really is remarkable journey into the human mind).
RA
Probably because we don’t find it horrible
Erg. NO! You OBVIOUSLY don’t get the point of satire. OBVIOUSLY. Instead of ignoring RA, perhaps you should read the definitions he’s helpfully provided for you…
Joe C summed up the article ABSOLUTELY PERFECTLY:
Certainly the article could have just said this, but the illustration was far more powerful, because it created the reaction we get every stinkin’ day that the ODM’s hit “publish” on a new load of lies…
Chris L
Whatever.
I perceive you are not reading the same articles.
It’s over. PB, et al, I’d just let this one drop.
POINT A – No one has a problem with the way Kirk spoke about his book
POINT B – If it was Ravi Zacharius who was hawking a book without mentioning Jesus other people would have attacked him
POINT C – Because they don’t find fault with Kirk the post is to point out the HYPOCRISY by use of SATIRE
There is no POINT D.
Correct Rick. Perfect. QFT.
Anything else is a wonton distortion of the facts, in my honest opinion.
My reaction to this thread:
Phil – That is a picture of me last year when I would come down with 105 fevers and be rushed to the hospital 4 different times. Praise God I am so much better but still a little weak.
No he didn’t write the article that was linked but the link contains an excerpt from his book. But all of this is not the point of the OP. The point of the OP is that Bell, Warren, Pagitt, et al are constantly attacked, maligned, slandered, and lied about for doing the same thing Kirk did this morning.
To draw a complete circle for you PB…We (here at .info) respond continually to the ridiculously high standard that the ODM’s hold everyone, not of their persuasion, to. Therefore when an opportunity to show the silliness of their standard presents itself we (at least me) will use it. That is why it is satire and not slander.
What is so hard to comprehend about that?
Because being wrong is just so so….
werrrrrrr….
omg…head. desk.
okay, for anyone who doesn’t understand satire, i need you to browse The Onion. http://www.theonion.com …if you don’t figure it out after that, then you’re hopeless.
and also, the article was not about Mike Seaver, as anyone with a brain can see.
it was about his best friend, Boner.
Richard,
There is absolutely nothing about my comment that is a “joke.”
What did I get out of this thread? that everything I say is really funny but you guys need more practice…
***satire***
iggy
I just got it!
***satire***
iggy
AMY: Richard, There is absolutely nothing about my comment that is a “joke.”
RA: What? I never said that what you stated was a joke. What are you talking about?
Sorry, Richard, I’m not used to seeing quotes the way you do them and got confused. My bad. (I haven’t previously read many of your comments and thought you were feeding my quote back to me.)
As to what you did say, regarding my comment:
No one has to be actually making fun of anything in Cameron’s life to be treating God’s work in Cameron’s life with disrespect. I’m saying that taking actual works of God in a person’s life, whether that be something dramatic like God’s blinding of Saul or something “consequential” like a person starting to feel uncomfortable with the road they are traveling on, and using those works of God in someone’s life as a way of mocking someone else’s criticism of another Christian (in this case Ingrid, I guess) is showing disrespect to God.
For God’s working in our and others’ lives is something that we should hold in awe.
Here’s my comment again:
Also:
Taken in the context of other discussions of Way of the Master stuff, I must say I’m not so sure about that.
Amy I appreciate your willingness to dialogue.
Again for the record as the author of the post I appreciate Kirk and some of what WoTM does.
AMY: “to be treating God’s work in Cameron’s life with disrespect.”
RA: I really want to stress that NO disrespect was at all meant toward ANYTHING in Cameron’s life or interview. EVERYTHING he said was perfectly fine and great to me. My comments against his words were satire of how the ODMs treat their targets whose lives/testimony/faith/interviews are just as fine.
As absurd as the accusations were against Cameron (and they were acknowledged as such), are the accusations made against so many others. That was the point of it all.
______
AMY: . . . using those works of God in someone’s life as a way of mocking someone else’s criticism of another Christian (in this case Ingrid, I guess) is showing disrespect to God.
RA: I understand how you are seeing it. You see ANY use of a testimony in any way other than for the reason it was given, is disrespectful of God. I disagree, but I understand.
I think even more grievous is what the ODMs have been doing to various different targets. And one way to show the absurdity of their actions was to take what the perfectly acceptable wprds of Cameron, and analyze them in the way ODMs analyze the words of their targets. See?
_______
AMY: “NO ONE is making fun of ANYTHING in Cameron’s life.” Taken in the context of other discussions of Way of the Master stuff, I must say I’m not so sure about that.
RA: Well, let me say, for ME, I wasn’t actually making fun of anything Cameron said. All of my posts were meant to point to how NOT to do apologetics and discernment.
RA
Amy – what do you think about Mrs. Schlueter’s title in her first post about Ravi Zacharius’s participation in the NDP? It read:
Ashamed of Jesus at the NDP.
She was suggesting R. Z. was ashamed of Jesus. Chris was satirizing that in his post about Kirk. To suggest a man like RZ who has put his life on the line all over the world is “ashamed of Jesus” is ludicrous and deserves to be corrected and even mocked.
How about this title?
A Wise Decision?
And then we could have explored the reasons for providing a form prayer. But when you are deeply self righteous and have no regard for anyone’s ministry, it is easy to type those words that make one of the greatest and most substantial accusations against a man of God. And Mrs. Schlueter’s pastor hasn’t reproved her?
And none of SOLs posts are satirical.
Rick,
As to the “Ashamed of Jesus” post are you referring to this title?
There is a question mark there, not a period as you have, and I think that’s significant.
However, personally, I couldn’t have put that title, regardless of punctuation. I wouldn’t want to imply that Ravi Z is ashamed of Jesus. I used to listen to Ravi Z on the way to church. From that listening (maybe 7 radio segments) I gained nothing but utmost respect for Ravi. I appreciate his intelligence and his way of looking at things. I can’t imagine personally suggesting/implying in any way that Ravi is “Ashamed of Jesus.”
The issue is much deeper to me personally than whether or not Ingrid should have put that title. I just looked at the article by Gregory Allen, which includes the Youtube video with both Ravi Z and Ingrid’s words: http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/?p=743 Ingrid’s response as presented on this video should be a wake-up call to many including myself. Both Ingrid and Gregory Allen’s words are convicting to me, things I need to think about in regards to situations I am in or will be in personally.
In conclusion, I wouldn’t want to imply that Ravi Z is ashamed of Jesus and that title would have been best left out. In spite of that title, Ingrid (and Gregory Allen) bring up very important issues that are affecting our country and the expression of our faith. For me I have to ask myself, when does my obeying a country’s restrictions of expressions of faith become “ashamed of Jesus?” versus “showing respect for others” or “putting myself under that country’s laws.”
One can actually be “ashamed of Jesus” or at least “embarrassed to bring up “religion,” and use existing laws or cultural norms to justify one’s not speaking out.
Don’t have time to look at “A Wise Decision.”
One more thought: One could also get caught up in the ecumenical “norm” and leave out Jesus in many ways, not only leaving out not praying in His name, but leaving out clearly identifying with Him as the one and only Way to the Father.
“There is a question mark there, not a period as you have, and I think that’s significant.”
Then your definition of significant carries with it a biased pair of glasses. So you are saying if chris titled his post:
“Kirk Cameron Denies Jesus?”
That would be OK and you would not have any criticism? A period instead of a question mark – significant. Thank you for that birthday present, I’ve learned something new.
Wow, what a discussion thread!!! Funny…thought provoking…frustrating…etc. I laughed. I cried. I nearly died. I loved the line about Rick being a closet papist!
Whoever “pastorboy” is, he strikes me as a very sincere but very LITERAL person. As someone coming into the discussion after it is almost over and reading over the whole thing, my observation is that pastorboy is either being deliberately obtuse (he gets it but is acting like he doesn’t) -OR- the discussion of satire is totally out of his range of comprehension and/or understanding and/or experience. My impression is that he may be such a literal, in-the-box, inside-the-lines thinker that anything different than that, anything that pushes his boundaries, is considered different, therefore bad, therefore dangerous.
For my part, I thought the original post was spot on and quite funny/clever in how it parodies Ingrid’s tone and structure. Nice job, Chris L!
By the way, I heard mention of both Rick’s birthday and Chris’ daughter’s birthday. My birthday was yesterday (the 26th). It just goes to show you that truly brilliant and beautiful were born in our month – Engelbert Humperdinck, Dr. Spock, Golda Meir, Niccolo Machiavelli, Karl Marx, Billy Joel, Bono, Ayatollah Khomeini, Joe Cocher, Mr. T, Miles Davis, Lenny Kravitz, John Wayne, etc.
Too bad I don’t rate that list. Maybe Rick has more in common with Machiavelli, Marx and Ayatollah Khomeini!
OK, Scott, I hope you noticed I declared “Slander Day”.
There is a substantive rumor surrounding the relationship that Scott and John have on Verum Serum!
Enjoy…
Point well taken.
I would like to point out that Ken, Ingrid and Rick and Brian McClaere have never been seen together at the same place at the same time. I don’t mean to insinuate anything, but if I WAS I might be inclined to wonder if Rick, Ingrid and Ken all receive their mail at the same place. Maybe Ingrid/Rick/Ken (heretofore to be known as RiNgriEn) is a lone evil entity hoping to play all sides against the middle.
Point well taken, Rick!
I would like to point out, however, that Ken, Ingrid, Rick and Brian Mclaren have never been seen together at the same place at the same time. I don’t mean to insinuate anything, but if I WAS I might be inclined to wonder if Rick, Ingrid, Brian and Ken all receive their mail at the same place. Maybe Brian/Ingrid/Rick/Ken(heretofore to be known as BRiNgriEn) is a lone evil entity hoping to play all sides against the middle.
I’m just sayin’….
I always thought Brian MacLaren was handsome.
Is the word “eclectic” a code word?
^At what age? He had a bowl cut in the 70’s.
or simply Kicking.
or Rick And Also Some Gargoyles.
I will not be known by the woman’s name in first. Let us be known as
RIK
Amy,
If Ingrid had just expressed that she thought Ravi Z had not presented a prayer in Jesus Name as was disappointed, that is fine and one thing…
But she attacked him and made him sound as if he was ashamed of Jesus. Then if you want to get deeper… they removed Ravi Z from VCY radio.
I see that there is more meat in one of Ravi’s sermons even when I disagree than 1000 posts by Ingrid and Ken combined…
so the real shame is Ingrid removed a godly man who has a huge and intellectual ministry that reaches many people becuase of popularity polls…
that is the deep and shallow of it all and personally I am ashamed of Ingrid’s actions as they were very ungracious and unchristlike.
iggy
They could be called The BRIK… it sorta sounds like a DC/Marvel comic character…
iggy
Is that the one you dressed up as in that picture last year?
This is one of those threads that makes me realise what totally different playing fields you can be on with another person and not realise it…
How Pastorboy managed to so consistently misunderstand the OP and satire was truly mindboggling. I mean, I’m sitting here, my mind genuinely boggled. He seems like an at least a moderately intelligent guy. Like trying to explain jet planes to some lost jungle tribe…
That was Mr Incredible and about 3 years ago…
iggy
“This is one of those threads that makes me realise what totally different playing fields you can be on with another person and not realise it…”
Are you married? Have teenagers? Go to church? Vote?
Hah, good point Rick. I’m neither married nor have teenagers. I do go to church and vote though. Plus I’m the youngest of seven kids so I really should have known better…
For the last time ya’ll
I understand satire.
I understand slander.
In MHO, this was slander, taking the ad-hominem attack of Chris L (which he denies) of Ingrid earlier, and many others.
Making Jack Nicholson’s line my own “Satire is Anger’s ugly cousin” (He said sarcasm…) You are trying to communicate your anger at Ingrid, Ken, etc. by attacking a ‘poster boy’ of the reformed movement.
Just calling it like I see it. I may be wrong, Just my humble opinion after observing this site for a while.
You are wrong.
My words but a whisper, your deafness a shout…
I am assuming thats NOT satire Phil.
I agree with Phil.
Oh, and the fact that you can label this piece of satire as sinful, and simultaneously approve of Ingrid using the same tactics in all seriousness either shows how immersed in team politics you are, or shows how much you really don’t understand satire.
Rick,
Jethro Tull… boy we are old aren’t we? But yes, thick as a brick…
= )
iggy
I’m going with a both/and not an either/or on this one.
I just watched the piece, and he did mention Jesus.
So this piece is slander, at least the title is.
Oh well, I am not the judge of thoughts and intents of Man’s heart. God is.
I will let Him deal with you.
PB,
It is satire… and God was not in the article that this post was originally about.
Funny how hard you are fighting in all this. I mean I gave a direct quote from Doug Pagitt that stated he was not a Universalist and you just kept stating he was… it did not matter to you as you already made up your mind regardless of the facts…
Yet, you seem to not even grasp what satire is let alone grasp what real slander is!
My prayers are with you…
iggy
And Pastorboy illustrates again that he doesn’t understand satire, and that he didn’t actually read the article since the article was built on the initial linked article, not the video.
No need to try to defend a satirical article but; yes he mentions Jesus in the file footage not in the actual interview.
So does Doug, Rick, Rob, et al. Does that make everything Ingrid, Ken, and others write about them slander now?
“By the same measure in which you judge it will also be used against you”
Iggy,
Your definition of universalism is different than mine. I have showed you both written, video, and recorded quotes from Doug Pagitt describing his beliefs that everyone will be reconciled and restored on the last day, regardless of beliefs. That is universalism, no matter if Doug says ‘I am not a universalist’
Chris
The Jesus that they mention is not the same Jesus. What they say about Jesus is not biblical in many cases, see above.
Tim,
Chris refered to the fact that he was watching it (not reading it), and in what he was watching, Kirk did mention Jesus. I may not understand satire (in your opinion) but I can read.
It has nothing to do with opinion.
And you still haven’t read the article since Chris wrote: “Kurt chose to spend a majority of his time talking about his exploits as a teen heart-throb. When asked what changed his life he didn’t shout “JESUS” or recite John 3:16. He also left out the verse that says Jesus is the way, truth and the life. Nor did he take the interviewer down the Romans road.”
I didn’t see any of that in the video.
Ah.. referencing your past slander to justify your current slander.
So if I’m tracking well.
You can assign motive to whoever, whenever, where ever you want.
Doug is a heretic because he doesn’t mention Jesus.
Kirk is a christian because he doesn’t mention Jesus.
Ingrid slanders someone it’s truth.
Chris satirical points out the double standard its slander.
All because John says so.
John thanks for the time and effort your putting in to this but can you not see that you may be wrong?
There is an old Yiddish saying:
If one man thinks you’re an ass pay no attention. If two men think you’re an ass go get fitted for a saddle. ***sarcasm***
I am with PB on this one and that makes 2 of us.
So lets all go get fitted for a saddle.
Brian McLaren follows a different Jesus than me, because his Jesus’ death on the cross was not to pay the penalty for sins, or to take the wrath of God on my behalf. In fact, McLaren’s Jesus is not a judge at all. He said that the cross is false advertising for God. Definitely different Jesus, and different God.
Pagitt said that on the day of judgement that God would reconcile and restore everyone~buddhists, muslims, jews,~ everyone. Thats not in the Bible. Different Jesus who did not have to die, because everyone will be reconciled and restored whether they believe him or not. He is not the only way, just a way.
Bell’s Jesus is also different. Bell’s Jesus also died to reconcile everything to himself. The only people who do not benefit are those ones who with knowledge reject Jesus. He believes in a kingdom theology which says we can bring the kingdom by our good works towards others. He says that the virgin birth is not important etc etc etc.
I could go on. I have countless quotes, articles, videos, recordings, etc. all on my site.
As you said Tim, it is not opinion. It is not slander. It is what they have written. It is what they have said.
make sure you buy a blanket so the saddle won’t chafe.
Chris,
I cannot assign motive. I do not know mens hearts. I can only observe fruit. I can also read, hear, and see. I have a encyclopedia of quotes from their books, I have recordings both audio and video. All on my site. All for you to see.
As you illustrate again the type of slander you engage in. My quote had nothing to do with any of those men, had nothing to do with the context in which you quote it. Yet you used it anyway, stripping it totally of what I meant.
And that’s why you fail as a researcher, and all the “countless quotes, articles, videos, recordings, etc” you’ve assembled mean nothing. All you’ve got is footnoted slander.
The fact that you say this makes me doubt that you’ve actually taken the time to really read anything these men have written. If you did, you certainly read it with an agenda in mind, because they don’t say anything you say they do for the most part.
I could take time to tear your weak arguments apart, but you have shut your mind to the truth, so what’s the point?
Phil and Tim,
Back at you.
It must be such a pain for Jesus to change costumes depending on who’s doing the following.
Whoops, the Fundamentalists are praying, I’d better put on my “bastard” outfit.
When you say this and then IN THE SAME POST demonstrate the falsity of these two comments, it’s like being the guy who said he understood the law of gravity before walking off a cliff wearing a cape…
Wow… apparently you missed my comment on the cell phone thread:
Sarcasm can be, and often is, a problem – one that I often overdo.
Satire is not sarcasm…
And no, you don’t understand either one – you keep demonstrating that for the world to see…
Evan,
I hope that you do understand one thing, truly I do. I am concerned for your soul. I am so concerned that I will not banter with you like so many ‘Christians’ here will.
You have spoken blasphemy time and again, the latest post here as an example. Blasphemy is very serious in God’s sight; it was so serious the Jews would not even speak God’s name for fear of doing it improperly. Yet you call Jesus a bastard? I fear for you my friend.
Since you can casually say Gods name and associate Christ with a curse, essentially accusing Mary of being an adulteress/fornicator and God as some sort of fornicator by calling Jesus that, you clearly have created a different God in your mind, one that is accepting of this type of verbal behavior, as well as a God who is soft on sin. It is the same as creating an crafted idol, it is creating a different god in your image that you are comfortable with. It is not the God of the Bible.
Since God will not hold him guiltless that takes His name in vain, and since God has said you should have no other gods before Him, and you should not make yourself an idol, and you have done all three in his sight and on this blog, what are you going to do on the day of judgement? He is merciful, but he is also just. You will be declared guilty if you die in your sins.
That is why it is so important that you understand why Jesus, who was incarnated, taking on the body of a human, came to this earth. He came as man to die, and as God to take on the sins of the world, and to rise again. He paid the penalty for your blasphemy, idolatry, and not putting God first. He died for each and every transgression of His law that you have done in your life. But, just like the criminal that you are, you must accept what he has done by repenting (confessing and forsaking) your sin, and placing your trust in Christ alone for your salvation.
I truly fear for your future, my friend. I pray that you will search the Holy Bible and see if what I say is true. Seek God, and I pray you find Him.
Apparently, Paul’s did too…
Oh, but that’s right – ‘all’ doesn’t mean ‘all’…
Bull…. You’re so full of it, I can smell it from here…
Chris L
I didn’t say sarcasm was satire.
I said I replaced the word.
Missing the point in the process…
Pastorboy: Brian McLaren follows a different ……
Pastorboy: Pagitt said that on the day of judgement that God would …..
Pastorboy: Bell’s Jesus is also different. Bell’s Jesus also died …..
RA: This can all be classed under the heading – RE-DIRECTION. It is a favorite tactic of ODMs, they never stay on one subject for very long after you keep pressing the truth at them about a specific issue. They run out of places to go with it and kepe up their argument, so they switch topics and redirect the conversation to whatever accusation they have next on their list. This is why no forward progress is made. ODMs. Refuse to stop, and say, “Okay, I was wrong on that one. I’ll put this one away.”
Instead, they ignore clear refutations and points, and just keep heaping more accusations on the pile. In the end, all you have is this big pile of……… unresolved issues and accusations.
Maybe that was part of the smell, as well…
Pastorboy: Blasphemy is very serious in God’s sight
RA: Yes, everything is serious in God’s sight as long as those “serious” things can be directed at the targets of choice. But when ODMS are held accountable for things like lying, slander, deceptive reporting – what do we hear about how God’s views on those issues and how “serious” they are? Answer: ……………………………………………………………………………..
……………………………….cricket……………………………….
…………………………………………………………………………….
………………………………………………………………….. wind…………………………………………………………………….
………………………………baby crying in distance………………………..
……………………………………………………………………………
………………………………………cricket………………………………
RA
I just observed my BIL’s library. Lots of your books, just thought I would mention that.
Look, you are obviously an intelligent man. You have done great research on the mormon church, etc. You can see where they are false.
Why not do some serious research on Bell, Pagitt, Jones, and McLaren, and on other emerging folks? I believe that you will see the serious dangers that these all pose.
Chris,
I will simply refer you back to my site.
Paul’s quote you gave has nothing to do with universal salvation/reconciliation. Bell’s does, in context. I am assuming that you do not believe that dogs, cats, animals, trees, buddhists, Muslims, hindus, etc. are not reconciled to God…saved…without coming to a saving knowledge of Christ?
I may be assuming a lot…
PB,
That is because you have only ONE definition… and there are many more…
I may not agree with his conclusions but at least this guy understands there is different types of universalism.
Each has a different nuance…
I hold that Jesus died on the Cross for all mankind to talk away the sins of the world… that is universal atonement… yet I do not believe all will be saved in the end.
I have not seen Doug state he is. I ahve seen you and Ingrid twist what he states to mean what you want and have pointed that out over and over… but as in the case of “satire” it seems to just blow past you without the slightest of understanding.
I mean you twisted one thing where Doug was stating that the attributes of God are in creation and turned it to mean Doug was saying God was in all creation as in Panantheism.
I pointed out what Doug was stating with the whole two pages and you focused on one sentence that you wrenched, twisted and squeezed to mean what you wanted it to mean.
That is dishonest… and slander…
iggy
PASTORBOY: Why not do some serious research on Bell, Pagitt, Jones, and McLaren, and on other emerging folks? I believe that you will see the serious dangers that these all pose.
Hey P,
First, TY TY TY TY — in all seriousness — for recognizing my track record of defending the faith.
You have just gone up several notches in my book far above those ODMs who, because I disagree with them on various issues, have begun spreading lies about: 1) my faith, 2) my views of Mormonism (and other religions), 3) and even my books against Mormonism (they are saying my work is actually seeking a merge with Mormonism with Christianity – kooky, I know, but that’s what they’re saying). So, again, TY.
Second, I did not quote your references to McLaren, pagitt, and Bell in order to defend them in any way. But only to point out what I saw as a redirection of the issue — which to me, is still this whole argument about slander vs. satire.
Third, I might indeed do a book on Emerging one of these days. But that will be up to:
a) what God leads me to do;
b) input from my agent (a very godly, professional who he choose projects);
c) some publisher who might even be interested.
The last issue, of course, is very important since I do not self-publish my volumes. So, even if I might want to do a book on Emerging, if no publisher wants to publish it, then that is an issue for me to consider as well.
I pray about every book I write. My most recent book, of course, just being released this week is on Eckhart Tolle and Oprah Winfrey and the runaway bestseller by Tolle – A New Earth, which is affecting millions across the world (see my SPECIAL WEB PAGE if you are interested in my book, which is titled A New Earth, An Old Deception ).
More specifically about McLaren, Pagitt, and Bell, I simply haven’t researched them enough to make ANY statement on them. I will say, however, that as for McLaren, I have run across several things about him that disturb me and at this point I would not feel comfortable endorsing him at all.
The entire passage:
I would note that Paul goes out of his way to identify “all things” as something larger than “all human beings” or “all Christians”. This would fall in line with “a new/renewed heaven” and “a new/renewed earth” – so I would assume that dogs, cats, trees, etc., (which were at peace with man before the fall) would be included in the deal.
The second part of Paul’s quote deals with the discrimination of humans.
Bell has dealt with this a number of times in his sermons at MHBC, so your characterization of him as ‘universalist’ is slander (as opposed to what you have mistakenly characterized as such the past several days). But hey – whatever drives up your hits. After all, you’re the one who’s been teaching me that the ends justify the means.
But if that’s so, I wonder where a quote like this would come from:
What if the ends and the means are completely screwed-up. Let me know how that works for ya…
So, read quickly through what was linked to in the openning of this thread, and so…
For any who missed it, here’s the second paragraph of the article
Here is the first chapter of the new book.
Is it any wonder that ABC news didn’t get to the Jesus parts? Heck, I’m actually rather surprised they let this be on their ‘news’ at all, so minor props for that.
And to be fair, here’s the subtitle…
Cameron Traces Path From Teen Idol Fame to Current Life as Devout Christian and Father of Six
Yeah, I suspect that the “satire” in the opening was about as accurate to the book as other kinds of fishing stories are to the reality.
RA
I think it devolved into an argument about slander and satire.
Are we still on the satire kick…
If so:
Richard Abanes was the ghostwriter of Deceived on Purpose
if not
Richard Abanes was the ghostwriter of Deceived on Purpose****
****satire
You’re right in substance Jazz, you just missed on the particulars.
The satire in the opening was about as accurate to the book as ODMs are in their treatment of Bell, Pagitt, Jones, Chris L, etc because THATS THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS SATIRE.
“It must be such a pain for Jesus to change costumes depending on who’s doing the following.
Whoops, the Fundamentalists are praying, I’d better put on my “bastard” outfit.”
Love it…
iggy is the ghost writer for all Rick Warren’s and Richard Abanes’s books.
***satire***
So where is my check?
iggy
May I just reiterate -
Talk about gang tackle on PB.
Just curious PB,
Why didn’t you ask who it was who has been slandering me publicly on the Internet about my views of Mormonism and my books on Mormonism?
If slander is such a terrible thing, as you and I seem to agree, then why would you not want to know who these ODMs are — so that you could over there and tell them to STOP slandering me?
RA
*waving hand furiously in the air*
Oh…Oh…Oh…pick me…pick me….I know…I know!!!!!!!!!
11:05 POST: If slander is such a terrible thing, as you and I seem to agree, then why would you not want to know who these ODMs are — so that you could over there and tell them to STOP slandering me?
1 Hour and counting, no response ……………………..
Iggy a Jethro Tull fan? You are a friend for life.
Looking for a sign that the Universal Mind has written you into the Passion Play!
I want to know.
I’ve been waiting.
RA…
Just landed in LA…
Who is it?
No, pastorboy, I wasn’t “calling” Jesus that. On top of satire, you seem to have a problem with nuance. I was merely saying that the “Jesus” that fundamentalists worship is a fundamentally different character from the “Jesus” presented in the Gospels.
It’s also completely pompous, yet typical, of you to assume that you understand what I do or do not believe, or the place I hold for God in my life, based on the fact that I curse sometimes.
It’s also completely pompous, yet typical, that you stand on your holier-than-thou soapbox and wax theologically concerned about my soul and speak to me, as if from a place of knowledge, as if I was some unchurched heathen who “just doesn’t understand about Jesus!”
No, Pastorboy, I’m over-churched enough that I know that, God aside, all too often in the Christian church, the emperor has no clothes.
Sorry, Evan, for being concerned.
So I guess you are good enough. forgive me for caring****
When have I said that on this website?
Oh, but I don’t really believe in the “virgin” birth, which means I also don’t believe either Mary or God were adulterers or fornicators, since Mary & Joseph were married and since God doesn’t have an XY chromosomal make-up, if Joseph wasn’t involved, then Jesus wasn’t fully human.
As far as caring, you have a weird way of doing so, since you mention that you don’t banter back and forth with me BECAUSE you care.
That’s like Jesus deciding not to feed the hungry or heal the sick because he cared about their plight TOO much.
To bad your concern sounded like condemnation.
Evan,
Well, there you go.
So, are you good enough to go to heaven?
There goes chris again, judging me.
Oh, stop Kirk Cameron.
My beliefs about God are not so simple as to be explained by the framework of reward vs. punishment, both undeserved, in my opinion.
Well didn’t you say that was allowed if:
Just judging fruit I guess.
pb,
I love how you say ‘christians.’ that’s really nice of ya!
Also, how does one ‘banter’ with ‘Evan’ per se?
oh noooooooo, Mandy and i are bantering right now, and nobody else can see it because we’re bantering on AIM!
Mandy must be a “Christian.”
i often banter…
With the little show Pastorboy has put on in this thread I can see why so many Christians would rather be known as Christ-Follower. Its taken almost 2,000 years to do it but we’ve finally gotten enough Christians to be big enough jerks to make that label a liability.
Now Christians are starting to understand, little by little, how Muslims probably feel, having to issue disclaimers.
I like the term “Christ-follower.”
PASTORBOY: Who is it?
RA: Thanks for asking. Two individuals have been spreading this lie that is now all over the Internet:
Mr. John Baker – In his article Rick Warren Apologist Richard Abanes: Going soft on Mormonism
and
– Mr. Tim Wirth – who reposted Baker’s article on his own website, even thoough I have contacted him and TOLD HIM my position on Mormonism. He basically says I am wrong, don’t really know what I believe, and says Baker is accurate about my views on Mormonism, specifically declaring that my book AGAINST Mormonism titled “Inside Today’s Mormonism” is seeking a synthesis between Mormonism and Christianity – which is absurd.
and
finally, THIS SITE, which has repeated the bizarre claim.
They have: 1) Refused to read the book; Refused to call Mormon ministries to ask them my position on Mormonism and the contents of my books on the LDS Church; 3) Refused to accept my heart-felt plea to stop slandering me based on this absolute lie about my work against Mormonism and my beliefs that I have made clear to them.
Sooooo, there it is. Slander in it’s purest form.
RA
Richard – I will need to check your underwear!
OH MY GOSH I BANTER WITH EVAN ON GTALK SOMETIMES!!!!11!!!!
First it was the Protestants…then it was the Emergents…now it’s the Banterers.
Notify Ingrid and Ken (and Pastorboi…), they like to be kept in the loop re: completely made-up heresy.
On a serious note, a close friend lost her father last night (at about the same time we were talking about it, Mandy…) due to complications from a stroke, and it was pretty unexpected. Please keep her family in all of your prayers. I share her words:
“Say I love you. Hug and kiss. Give of yourself. Don’t be afraid. Life is so precious and so brief.”
Instructive to all of us, I think.
–The satire in the opening was about as accurate to the book as ODMs are in their treatment of Bell, Pagitt, Jones, Chris L, etc because THATS THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS SATIRE.–
Really?
Have to disagree. From what I’ve seen, they’ve been pretty accurate.
The satire in the opening, however, was rather…juvenile? Off-target, maybe, would be better?
Anyone who had read that article, and noticed that it was merely an excerpt from the book, and one which Cameron probably had little say in choosing which part to excerpt, and finally not considering the source that was posting the excerpt, but then runs on as if finally finding some kind of trump to throw in the faces of those they despise, well, I do have some ideas on what kind of action that is.
You become the thing you hate.
Well if you really think this is the case, then there’s probably no hope of you understanding the point of this article. Your definition of accurate is different than mine, that’s for sure.
My view of the satire had nothing to do with the men mentioned. It had to do with the overall tone and the articles that caustically deal with Miley Cyrus, Kay Warren’s AIDs work, the heartbreak of divorce, moral failures, and just the continuing perception that the ivory tower knows and sees all.
And the core of the satire was this – That if that same man who works for Rev. Moon had written and said he enjoyed Tim Reed’s podcasts, SOL would have pounced on that like Phelps on gays. So the hypocrisy of her post was the meat and potatoes for this satire.
Satire must be a deeper science than I ever imagined!
I am sooo astonished at some people who have no clue what satire is… it is just so bizarre that some seem so stuck in the literal development stage that they cannot conceive satire for what it is…
man… and some of these claim to be mature in Christ!
iggy
–man… and some of these claim to be mature in Christ!–
Waiting for the verse that says true Christians need to be conversant in satire.
No one said they do. However, if you don’t understand the concept you should refrain from labeling it something it’s not just because you don’t understand it.
Jazz – I think Iggy’s got two thought streams going on there:
1) For educated folks, to not be able to recognize satire is pretty illiterate (or dishonest)
2) These same illiterate/dishonest folk are acting pretty immaturely, particularly for claiming to to be Christians.
No verse needed.
A mature Christian MUST be versed in all aspects and levels of satirism.
*The above was a multileveled satirical statement. Not unlike a man watching himself on television watching himself on television…
Sometimes I feel like we are in the catacombs.
It seems that some Christians have had a hard time understanding satire for a while. Check out Steve Taylor’s commentary on some of the reaction he received from his song, “I Blew Up the Clinic Real Good”.
Juvenile? Maybe Off-Target? Definitely not.
It is perfect satire because it precisely parodies the treatment that Ingrid & Co. have heaped upon other brothers when attacking even the most modest of indiscretion. And it is done with impunity on the other side of the fence. For little things like not saying Jesus in a prayer at the NDP.
Would you extend the same graciousness to Rob Bell when people excerpt one passage from a book to prove their case. Or Doug Pagitt when he is at the “Seeds of Compassion”. Understanding that maybe he was under a guideline not to proselytize on stage?
Trump Card? Absolutely! It was a perfect opportunity to point out the silliness of the ODM’s and the lofty standards which they attach to all those outside the camp. Phylacteries anyone? BTW no more of a trump card than the ODM’s who post articles about some wayward pastor and then attach that to Rick Warren. Actually that’s not a trump card that’s a joker!
Despise? Most definitely not! I don’t despise any ODM’s; I feel sorry for them that they apparently live graceless lives.
Again I don’t hate anyone . Plus this post was SATIRE! Which doesn’t actually make me the thing I hate. As near as I can tell most of what Ingrid writes is in all seriousness. Comical but serious nonetheless.
Well, first of all, doesn’t the site look just snazzy…did it change its hairdo?
Second, misunderstanding satire IS kind of sad. Kind of like misunderstanding the word “irony.”
Now where did I put my 10,000 spoons?
Let Alanis explain it.
Misunderstanding satire reveals a lack of intellectual nuance as well as a defensive positional posture that is always on “autopilot”.
Oops I forget!
Evan I bantered with you. Please do not mistake my bantering with actually caring or vice versa.
Never, Chris, never.
Though if you want to banter again, I’m available. I’ll send you the top secret location for the next Bantering meeting, but don’t tell anyone. (Denny’s.)
uh? I thought we were meeting at Bob Evans. Thanks for the heads up!
From your link, Phil (I loved this):
jazz,
According to Naves topical Bible dictionary.
-Of Jesus against hypocrites
Mt 23:2-33; Mt 12:13-40; Lu 11:39-54 …
I think you should understand satire to get these verses. If you do not understand satire, then you might miss what is going on in these verses.
And Jesus did say ”
Consider Mt 13: 9-17
So the one that has ears will pick up on the satire and get what Jesus is saying and doing.
I hope that suffices for our bible teaching for today… any other questions? = )
iggy