A Third View of the Saddleback Conference
Mark Driscoll on the recent conference at Saddleback (HT: Michael Krahn)
And, I learned a lot watching Rick Warren behind the scenes and over meals. Not being part of the Purpose Driven Network, I was humbled by how eager he was to bring in leaders from many networks and denominations to share ideas and help influence in his Purpose Driven Network pastors for the cause of Jesus Christ. After spending some time with Rick I am convinced for four things. One, a lot of Christians are jealous of his success and they account for a good percentage of his critics. Two, he really loves the Jesus of the Bible. Three, he really loves pastors. Four, he really loves the church of Jesus in all of it’s expressions, even those who are not doing the Purpose Driven methods he extols.
To be honest, Rick has a brilliant mind that shines even when he sits down and simply lectures from a chair for an hour as he did at the conference. But, what really struck me is how much he loves pastors and churches and how much he wants to serve pastors and their churches by giving away resources and encouragement lavishly. And, it is his affection for Jesus, pastors, and churches that has in my observation endeared him to so many Christian leaders. For those who criticize his methods, it would behoove them to also share in his effort to do something to help pastors other than criticize those who are trying to help. I do not agree with him on everything. But, I also find him to be a servant leader who is willing to learn which is rare among those who are very successful and in that I rejoice.”
So does this mean Mark will be out again, or is he in, or what?
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
44 Comments(+Add)
Haven’t you been paying attention? When you agree with the wrong team you’re out. Maybe if Mark gets on the trolley and starts calling Warren the whore of Babylon and mutters “hear the hiss” whenever he reads anythign Warren has written then he’ll be allowed back in the ODM clubhouse.
All hail the power of Warren’s name
Let paster’s fill their pews.
His methods will work wa-a-uh-n-ders
Yes, even for the Jews!
His methods will work wa-a-uh-n-ders.
Let paster’s fill-eh-eh-ill their pews.
What next John? I’m rubber and you’re glue?
You also missed the point, this post was only tangentially about Warren.
Tim,
Wasn’t Warren a prefect for Slytherin House?
Oh my aching head!
Yeah, we definitely don’t want those sinners stealing our seats! We just got our butt grooves the way we like ‘em…
Chad: I think Murkwood or Mordor is more a propo.
Tim,
Are we reading the same article? That post was embarrassingly gushing re Warren. Where is the tangnicity? (Hey did I just create a new word?).
Warren only has theatre seats. No pews allowed in PDL-Land.
Phil,
We’re ALL sinners.
No the post was about Mark Driscoll gushing about Warren, and how the ODMs would react to a man they alternately condemn and praise.
Here is just one short snippet from Willimon’s Who Will Be Saved? that I thought was great. I will be doing a study through this book on my blog very soon.
Willimon writes:
…And one more evangelical, soteriological implication: church growth is not a program of Fuller Seminary, not just an attempt to pump up flagging institutional church. Growth is a mark of the church. “All” is quantity rther than quality. Any congregation that is not growing – not restlessly probing the world, not reaching with Christ, not curious about what new beachhead Christ has obtained lately, not getting hammered by the world for having lunch with people like Zacchaeus – is not a fully faithful church. Just me and my friends, the cognoscenti, huddled about the practices, or caressing our correct Reformed doctrine, or reveling in our warm Wesleyan heritage, or affirming the right social attitutdes and the truly righteous political stance – without growth – is not the church of the seeking shepherd, the searching woman, or the one who was crucified for eating and drinking with too many sinners…
….Church growth is an expected, essential byproduct of a Savior who is relentlessly out on the prowl for fresh disciples. Church decline is an expected result for a church that refuses to follow a Savior who is relentlessly out to grow God’s kingdom.
Ouch. This from a Methodist bishop to me, a Methodist pastor. Talk about convicting.
peace.
OK. Well, in that case I did miss the point. Sorry. But admit it, I did have you humming the tune along in your head.
I pretty much agree with all four points. Driscoll is still out though.
I do think “hear the hiss” is a little over the top in any contextsssssss.
Would that be Sir Hiss, Prince John’s sidekick?
“You’ve hissed your last!”
I LOVE the animated Robin Hood.
“PJ, I love that, put that on my luggage!”
Chad,
The quote you gave contains the following quote:
“…is not the church of the seeking shepherd, the searching woman, or the one who was crucified for eating and drinking with too many sinners…”
Although Jesus certainly was ridiculed for eating and drinking with what were labeled as sinners, that is not the reason that he was crucified. He was crucified for what was considered blasphemy, since he claimed to be the Son of God. That was his crime against the Jews. Eating and drinking with sinners made him an outcast to some, but did not get him to the cross. Probably off topic, but I thought it worth noting.
Eric,
Certainly the fact that Jesus claimed to be “I AM” tipped the scales against him, but I think it would be a mistake to think he went from an innocent, unobserved Jew to a crucified blasphemer in one day. The eating and drinking with sinners is what raised the consciousness of those around him, causing them to follow him closely to see what was going on, don’t you think?
In any event, whether you agree with that or not, I think Willimon’s point is clear and on target.
peace,
Chad
I am suprised that of the things to pick on in that quote the one thing that I thought would raise the biggest stink – “ALL” is quantity, not quality – got nothing. This strikes at the heart of the Warren debate, IMO.
Willimon is making the bold claim that a church like Warren’s that flings its net out to catch as many fish as it possibly can and invite them to the table to feast is of greater importance than what kind of net you are using. I
peace,
Chad
I’ve stayed out of the is he, or isn’t he Warren debates. I will say I don’t agree with everything Warren says but I don’t think he deserves the heat he gets. Not sure what’s leading me now to join in but, for what it’s worth here’s MY two cents. I agree with Driscoll.
I’ll admit being an “OF” I am old school and I’m not ashamed of that. I’ve worked hand in hand with a lot of pastors, even my oldest brother is an AOG pastor and I’ve learned a LOT from him too. Just a few things I’ve picked up in my thirty sumthin’ years as a Christian.
One of the biggest beefs I read about Rick Warren that stand out to me is, many are disturbed with his lack of ranting on repentance.
While I agree that is part of a pastors job but, is it really the pastors only job?
In the teachings I sat under, I was taught that the job of evangelization really belongs to the folks sitting in the pews. I’ve seen that lost over these many years. I’ve watched, over the years, folks losing that aspect of our walks, taking it to the point of what I see as laziness…..to dragging that sinner to church on Sunday and then the pastor will give him the ‘ol what for!! I was taught and I agree with that teaching, it’s NOT the pastors job, it’s MINE and YOUR job!
While evangelizing is important it is a small portion of a pastors job. I consider Rick Warren a pastor first and foremost. And certainly not an evangelist and that’s not all bad.
I’ve haven’t listened to all Rick Warren’s sermons but, I have listened to a lot of them. Not trying to read into Warren’s emotions or thoughts of his sermons this just an opinion on my part. If one’s listens to him with the assumption that all the folks that he speaks to are already in the Kingdom what he says makes perfect sense. He’s feeding the flock. Is feeding the flock a constant barrage of repent, repent, repent, not where I come from.
Driscoll says: “But, what really struck me is how much he loves pastors and churches and how much he wants to serve pastors and their churches by giving away resources and encouragement lavishly. And, it is his affection for Jesus, pastors, and churches that has in my observation endeared him to so many Christian leaders.”
Yup I buy that one because Rick is a pastor first and foremost that’s where his heart is. Not an evangelist as many seem to want him to be. What I was taught, there is a difference and they are separate callings. I don’t think those thoughts are only an AOG thing.
This statement that Warren said that I read on Extreme Theology:
“In classic Warren sound-bite style he claimed that “the problem with a lot of preaching is that it produces learners instead of doers.”
Well duh!! He’s RIGHT!!
I have more thoughts, but I don’t wanna be a byte hog…….
Scotty,
I agree. A great job description for pastors is this:
And he himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for (what are all those gifted people to do?) the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God…. Ephesians 4:11-13
peace,
Chad
Chad,
The quote says that he was crucified for eating and dringking with sinners. The quote is Biblically incorrect, quite plainly. Many passages show that is was Jesus’ claims to be the Son of God or equal to God that raised the anger of the ruling Jewish leaders. Mark 14: 61-64 records the following: “But He kept silent and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked Him, saying to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.” Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “What further need do we have of witnesses? “You have heard the blasphemy! What do you think?” And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death.
I believe that is actually a significant error. The really unnacceptable thing (to unbelievers) about Jesus then and still today is not that he was a humanitarian, but that we was the Son of God, come to die for sinners. It is the difference between a view of Jesus’ death that is in line with a social gospel, and a view that is in line with the real gospel.
I agreed in my earlier comment that Jesus was ridiculed and in fact despised by many for his association with sinners and low class people, but the Bible shows that was not his great offense to the Jews. I believe it to be an important and worthy distinction to make.
In Christ,
Eric
Eric,
I think you’re assuming the portion of the quote is saying more than it’s saying. I don’t think the quote says that eating and drinking with sinners was the only reason Christ was crucified. I think there’s plenty of evidence in Scripture that it’s one thing that fueled the religious establishment’s hatred of Jesus, though.
Also, since when isn’t the Gospel social. The Gospel affects us both individually, so I don’t think we can make it an either/or proposition. Actually I question a presentation that only makes it an individual thing.
If a church isn’t really affecting the community, I question its effectiveness.
Eric,
I think you are making more of this than is necessary. That is probably my fault for quoting only one portion of the book. If you are not familiar with Willimon I can see how a conclusion like yours can be drawn but I assure you, Willimon recognizes why Jesus was crucified and they echo your remarks.
The point, however, is this: The religious of Jesus’ day were all expecting a Messiah. They had their own ideas of who and what that Messiah would look like. Had Jesus claimed to be the Son of God while adherring to their preconceived notions he never would have gone to trial (although the Romans might have gotten him first). The fact that this obscure Jew from Nazareth claimed to be the Messiah, the Son of God, while also eating with sinners and tax collectors and calling for peace, not war, is what made his claim to be the Messiah blashphemous.
peace,
Chad
Phil: exactly.
All Hail the power of Warrens Name
Let Pastor’s prostrates fall
Lift high the church growth diadem
and crown Rick lord of all
For purpose driven fills the pews
for seeker’s needs it doth fill
But faith through Grace in Christ alone
is foolishness to those who perish, still
The PEACE plan is fully funded
for Ricks’s books like big macs sell
The only problem is it misses Christ
And Rick’s followers still wind up in Hell.
So be driven by purpose and fill the seats
Download sermons at Sermon sites
spend your weeks without Scripture meat
and kick out those who fight
Please listen to the scripture Rick
and quit tickling the sheep’s ear
Preach the Gospel in fullness
and bring Salvation near’r
PB – that is unusually unchristian and judgmental.
Oh, I forgot to add….
*****Satire
That should make it alright.
It makes it better if your satire is pointed to Warren’s enemies.
Really – can you give me the relative percentages of those from Saddleback in hell vs. those in, say, Grace Community Church who reside in the eternal pit, vs. those from your own congregation?
Post the stats (and the source) or cut this crap out.
Pastorboy,
Jealousy kills…
The girl accountant on The Office show is Angela. She is the Christian on the show and her favorite book is The Purpose Driven Life. She still screws around with Dwight but I guess she still finds purpose with it, huh? : )
PB,
BtW – you’ve misidentified *satire* yet again.
Perhaps you should run over to the nearest UM campus and enroll in ENGL 3070…
Wow – that’s some detective work there Tim. (Angela, if you are a Christian, please see the memo)
I can’t figure out if this is a straw-man, an ad homenim or some big combination of logical fallacies all bound into one:
1) Angela Kinsey, the actress, has no known religious affiliation
2) Angela Martin, a fictitious character on ‘The Office’ – played by Angela Kinsey – is a Christian
3) When prompted, Angela Martin says that The Bible and PDL are the two books she would want, if stranded on a deserted island
4) Angela Martin has a promiscuous relationship
5) Therefore, it is Rick Warren’s fault…
Staggering
How about many people who live objectionable lives and say the Bible is their favorite book? Now who do you blame? Careful…
The Synod of Hippo?
Oh, hell, Chris L! (hey that rhymes!) Don’t overanalyze my posting there! I wasn’t making ANY kind of “argument” that PDL or lack thereof is CAUSING any immoral activity. Can’t : ) you : ) see : ) the : ) smiley face : ) the : ) end : ) of : ) the : ) sentence? : ( I imagine that if Rick Freuh wrote that, you would have written it differently. If anything serious to be taken from my posting, people can use PDL or the Bible to justify their sins.
Chris L
If those at Grace Community follow John Mc. and not Christ they also will wind up in Hell.
Thats the point of that verse. All preaching should pint to Christ and not the Pastor, the church or the method.
Thanks for playing.
I’ll raise a “pint” to Christ as well.
point****
****typo in satire
I’m just mad someone stole my song.
My verse was verifiably true, however! 
Wow, miss a day, miss alot.
Pastorboy continues to re-assure us that he doesn’t know what satire is.
And Tim Bell, either knows what satire is and has attained the rank of ninja at it, or … well, that’d be uncharitable, so lets go with satire ninja.