hmmmmm ..

Evan i mentioned my past and my best friend/boss/flatmate is gay before..I know thats starting to sound like i’m covering all angles before i slaughter them…

I know many people say there’s no differences between a glutton or a liar then a gay person who all happen to be Christian’s..But i think there is a differences between a person who defends their sin vs a person who struggles with it but still acknowledges it as sin..

I really struggle to see how an active gay person who’s conscience doesn’t tell him its sinful can be a Christian,i know i was racked with guilt..

The issue is not would Jesus go to this meeting,but would is very presences touch their conscience about their lifestyle…

I’m guessing you and this group doesn’t think it as too about this particular sin?

andy,
Well, regardless of our particular opinion of a certain sin, we can still treat a person with respect.

The question you ask about how can a person not feel convicted is something that can be applied to a lot of things. For instance, how can a church treasurer not feel convicted about stealing money from a church over the span of 10 years (something which I lived through). How can a person get up in front of a congregation and lead in worship, but be one the most verbally abusive people you’ve met.

In the end, I have to trust that God will deal with people, and that is their responsibility to obey. I can’t force them, no matter how hard I try.

That’s my perspective, anyway.

Honestly, even, though I probably disagree on some things with Evan, he has been pretty respectful here.

Was there anyone that Jesus refused to dine with?

Jerry,
Do you n0t think that Hybels is trying help lead these people closer to Christ by doing this? It’s crazy to assume that he is having this dinner meeting so that he can rethink his own moral compass on the issue. If MacArthur did this, they would be praising him for bring the true gospel to the — how did Ingrid put it? Oh yeah… the “unrepentant, bold face rebels who engage in sodomy in the name of Christ”

Jerry,
Well, OK, I’m all for accountibility, but this is an issue that has not been treated as a two-way street, at least from my experience. What message are churches largely sending homosexuals? Basically, don’t bother walking through the doors.

I guess it’s a matter of magnitude of sins. I don’t homosexuality in the top ten list of sins affecting churches. I see things like greed, gossip, lust, and materialism as much more dangerous than homosexuality. Let’s focus on getting our own house in order before worrying about others.

The main argument I hear against homosexuality doesn’t really seem to be out of care for them anyway. It seems that were more worried about us – about preserving our “American way of life” or “traditional family values”. Basically it comes down to protecting what we have. In reality we should be dying to save homosexuals. Once we do that, we’ll maybe have some credibility on the issue.

All I know is that if I were a homosexual, I probably would ignore most things Christians say.

Friends,

I hope to continue this conversation, but I have to go to the school for a couple of hours to work. I’ll hopefully see you back this afternoon. Phil, I will get back to your thoughts later.

not lifting my eyes,
jerry

I agree with Jerry and Andy here.

There is a huge difference between someone caught in the vice of sin – whether sexual or otherwise – who is cognizant that is it wrong and is struggling with it than someone who is actively engaged in promoting the lifestyle.

What would we think of a group called the National Association of Pedophiles or Fathers in Favor of Drunk Driving?

This group is travelling with a clear agenda to spread their message. They are not touring the US with the intent to discover the truth or seek out a way to repent for their lifestyle.

What would we think of a group called the National Association of Pedophiles or Fathers in Favor of Drunk Driving?

They are not touring the US with the intent to discover the truth or seek out a way to repent for their lifestyle.

So Jesus only ate with people who were seeking out a way to repent for their lifestyle? That doesn’t seem to track with Scripture.

Phil – I don’t see how this is a strawman at all. I was simply trying to illustrate the fact that groups that promote a destructive lifestyle (ie homosexual agenda) are really off-base but because of our cultural climate, we in the church tend to follow what’s acceptable or not in mainstream.

If anything, nc’s comments about gossip and all of that is a strawman (9:42am comment). Sure, there are problems within the church. Some people will always be hypocrites and feel no way about it.

You have to consider the important fact that the homosexual agenda is the most methodical agenda out there. They have made amazing strides in social acceptance over the last couple of decades – one event after another.

“What would we think of a group called the National Association of Pedophiles or Fathers in Favor of Drunk Driving?”

Phil already addressed this, but let me add why. The reason homosexuality in today’s context is on a different playing field altogether with the above is because one is a mutually agreed upon relationship (like any marriage) and the other is nothing short of abuse. The pedophile and drunk driver care nothing about the sanctity of life or the rights of others. They are acting through their own selfish agenda. Homosexuals are not hurting anyone in their decision to be together. This is why Phil is right to call it a straw man.

peace,
Chad

I’m guessing you and this group doesn’t think it as too about this particular sin?

Nope. Do not believe it is a sin. Have prayed, researched, prayed, researched, ad infinitum. Not a sin. Sometimes you have to realize that conflating very specific prohibitions with biological things that neither Paul nor the OT writers knew anything about, is intellectually incoherent and morally bankrupt.

Evan might be respectful. That’s not the issue. The issue is trying to ‘force’ people to accept something that is a sin as something that is not a sin.

Actually, it’s just an attempt to find communion with fellow believers.

But ’sexually immoral’ here (pornos is Gk.) is sufficiently broad enough to cover many bases as Paul demonstrates in 1 Cor 6:9 where he expands and defines the word to include other sexual sins that will prevent kingdom inheritance.

Translation: Paul has been broad enough that we can stick in any old thing we want and claim it’s covered under Paul’s prohibitions.

All I know is that if I were a homosexual, I probably would ignore most things Christians say.

Not ALL Christians, mind you. Just the obnoxious ones. Haha.

Oh look, here’s one now!

What would we think of a group called the National Association of Pedophiles or Fathers in Favor of Drunk Driving?

Yeah, you’re so right, me meeting a man and falling in love with him and committing to spend my life with him is totally the same as the drunk driver who killed my best friend’s brother last summer and people (predominantly heterosexual, I might add) who rape defenseless children. I wish there was an internet emoticon for the gesture I’m giving the computer screen right now.

Phil – I don’t see how this is a strawman at all. I was simply trying to illustrate the fact that groups that promote a destructive lifestyle (ie homosexual agenda) are really off-base but because of our cultural climate, we in the church tend to follow what’s acceptable or not in mainstream.

Yet again with the “destructive lifestyle” thing.

A. It’s not a lifestyle. I haven’t had sex in a while. STILL GAY.

B. Being gay is not destructive. Unsafe sex is destructive. Being told that you’re not good enough to go to heaven before you’ve even grappled with your sexual truth is destructive. Watching Christians lie about you in order to score political points is destructive.

You have to consider the important fact that the homosexual agenda is the most methodical agenda out there. They have made amazing strides in social acceptance over the last couple of decades – one event after another.

Oh, no! Social acceptance in a secular country for people who are different from each other?! We must tear the Constitution to shreds immediately! (Because yes, it’s the Christian Right that does not understand the Constitution.)

That said, the homosexual agenda is readily available and it’s not a secret: full equality and nothing more.

All the other crap morons like Peter LaBarbera convince you to believe is just that: crap.

Let me ask you this – what is the worse that could happen if gay marriage is legalized?

It would strengthen marriage for everyone, we wouldn’t have to fight with hospitals when our spouses are suddenly hurt in car accidents, just to be able to go back with them, our children would be protected…yes, only terrible things. Oh, and maybe we could move toward a society where ignorant hicks stop beating the crap out of/murdering gay kids.

Take away the cloak of God, and all you’re left with is the bigotry.

Second, apparently you haven’t considered the “fruit” (adopted children) of these so-called marriages. Raising children in that atmosphere is spiritually and psychologically damaging, i.e., hurting someone else, because it normalizes sinful and unnatural behaviour and relationships.

Again, until the church does something about its divorce rate that is actually higher than the general public, it really doesn’t have much moral authority in this area. What’s worse, children growing up in divorced family, or with gay parents?

Second, apparently you haven’t considered the “fruit” (adopted children) of these so-called marriages. Raising children in that atmosphere is spiritually and psychologically damaging, i.e., hurting someone else, because it normalizes sinful and unnatural behaviour and relationships.

Actually, Eric?

Lots of research has already been done. Children of gay parents fare no worse in ANY area than children of straight parents.

I deal in facts. You should, too.

Phil,

Evan is respectful to those he agrees with, but tends to refer to those he disagrees with as a moron, idiot, etc. Numerous examples could be given. This is further evidenced by linking to his web page.

Evan,

I have prayed for you and will continue to do so. Your words are angry, hostile, unloving, uncharitable, and unchristian. I have visited your website. Your words are crude, vulgar and hate-filled. I pray that the Holy Spirit will convict you of your sin of homosexuality and will cleanse your vulgar mouth.

In Christ,

Eric

If you don’t like the mean words I say, don’t go to my blog.

I try to be pretty nice around here.

You’ll notice, I tend to add qualifying adjectives on my blog whenever I am making fun of religious people. You’ll never see me going after “all” evangelicals, “all” Christians, or anything like that. That said, there is a difference between reasoned debate and going after the fools who make careers out of lying about people like me to further a political agenda.

Also, interesting: the studies ALSO show that children of gay parents are no more likely to be gay themselves, and since so many gay kids are adopted, that should throw a bone into the concept of environment having anything to do with anything.

Certainly, Tim, and it would also be helpful to know what types of ethnic foods are most appropriate for those dinner parties.

Like, for instance, Mexican food is so fun and festive that you might forget to tell your dinnermates about how they’re going to hell, so you might want to stick with the prune family.

“Right now, we pick sins to go after that tend not to affect us, or that we find threatening to our sub-culture.”

Right now, we as a church spend so much time arguing over who is in and who is out (no pun intended) that we neglect our real calling and the millions of people who do not know they are loved by God in Christ.

The problem with many commenters on this blog is this: there is no consensus that homosexuality is indeed a sin. Therefore, there can be no agreement or consensus (or even fruitful discussion) on how to address this matter.

Break the Terror – no intent here to offend you, honestly. This is obviously a sore point with you. But the truth is the truth, and in the case of homosexuality it is very plain – it is sin. It is not the worst sin in the world, but it is sin.

The “homosexuality is not a sin” debate all boils down to one’s view of Scripture. The theological gymnastics required for the “homosexual actions in committed relationships are not a sin” crowd requires such a low view of scripture that you might just as well forget the whole thing.

I would agree, generally, though I would distinguish the word “homosexuality” –

1) There is homosexual practice (which is clearly defined as sinful both in the OT and NT scriptures)

2) There is homosexual ‘orientation’ – the temptation toward members of the same sex. Unless it is acted upon or an object of lust, this is not a sin, in and of itself.

Unfortunately, many in the church have refused to distinguish between #1 and #2, lumping them all under the label of “homosexuality”

Chris L,

I agree with your views on the “orientation” vs “actions” scenario. I don’t know all the circumstances surrounding RW’s luncheon with this group (i.e., purpose, agenda to be discussed if any, etc.). But on the surface, not knowing any of the details, to me it is an unbiblical move. I class homosexuality as a sexual sin (duh). If we start with the argument that homosexual activity (not orientation) is a choice and a sin then to meet with this group of admitted practitioners and activists would be like meeting with the local chapter of Husbands for Adultry and Promiscuity (apples to apples) and in this regard 1 Cor 5 11 is like the elephant in the room.

But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone NAMED A BROTHER, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.

We can’t just ignore this scripture – an inconvenient truth? It may be man’s wisdom’s to “dialogue” with the un-repentant believing offender, but it is not God’s wisdom Who commands us to “separate.” And I will just have to trust that God knows how to bring His children to repentance if we follow His ways and not ours.

Chris L,

Also, it is important to determine is the “shunning” to be redemptive or punative? I don’t see much of a redemptive attitude regarding this issue at SOL I am sorry to say. It should break our hearts to have to shun a brother in Christ. Not give us self-righteous glee.

Phil i think your wrong when you compare sin’s..When i was in a bi relationship i was very aware that i was also causing someone else to sin as well as myself,where a lot of other sin’s are more individual

Well, that’s basically what I’m saying. We like to compare sins and have this little hierarchy of sins. We see things like homosexuality, drug dealing, and alcoholism as a big deal, and we tend to emphasis the sinfulness of them because they don’t affect a lot of church people.

Meanwhile we tend to ignore our own, comfortable sins.

All sin is destructive to someone. Jesus dealth with all of it on the cross, and the Holy Spirit will convict us as it’s needed. I need to worry about listening to Him talk to me about the sin in my life more than I need to tell others how to deal with the sin in theirs.

I’m not saying being a liar is better then being gay or being unfaithful..

I’m just saying surely any sin that involves or encourages another to sin, brings with it some responsibility? Be that a gay or hetro relationship..

Let me be clear if a person continues in any sin and condones it, is clearly questionable not just a gay person…

My response was to Evan who clearly doesn’t see it as a sin

PaulC -
My position is that a monogomous homosexual relationship is entirely different and not to be confused with an adulterous husband or a pedophile or a drunk driver.
Even if I or you wished to argue that all of the above violate God’s standard you cannot continue to make the claim that a person who justifies a monogomous homosexual relationship must also endorse pedophilia or adultery. That is just absurd. Wouldn’t you agree with at least that much?

peace,
Chad

Andy, it’s OK to ask me

Far be it for me to belittle the role of love in anything. Love can make a world of difference in just about anything, don’t you think? Both Jesus and Paul seemed to think so.

But I am not trying to relativize sins or suggest that interjecting love into a sin makes it all better. What I am saying (and nothing more) is that there is a big difference between predatorial sins, those actions that seek to gratify the self at the destruction of another, are quite different from a committed homosexual relationship. My point is simple: It serves no purpose nor advances anyones cause to have homosexuality and pedophilia or polygamy or adultery or whatever in the same discussion. It’s a non-starter.

peace,
Chad

My point is simple: It serves no purpose nor advances anyones cause to have homosexuality and pedophilia or polygamy or adultery or whatever in the same discussion. It’s a non-starter.

Thank you.

Were have to agree to disagree Evan

Chad: The homosexual couple is not sinning in that same way.

Agreed, but my point is that homosexual activities by definition has to do with sex. The Bible defines many sexual sins, adultry, fornication, homosexuality, etc. So I categorize homosexual in the same Category as adultry, for fornication, but they are not the same actions obviously.

Evan – why do people always reduce a view of homosexuality to politics (left or right wing) which speaks of an agenda?

You’re disputing the fact that those who vehemently oppose the rights of gay people to live our lives under the same protections and rights as everyone else exist squarely in a certain corner of the Right Wing?

It seems to me that you are subjectively trying to defend a way of life that is not aligned with the word of God (or even nature).

Yet again, What way of life? Trust me, my sexuality is but one small part of who I am. Also, it’s YOUR opinion that the word of God is out of alignment with my sexuality.

It is also your opinion that it’s against nature. Sadly, no! Homosexuality has been observed as a completely common, natural, and even necessary occurrence in over 1,500 species on earth so far. So shall the animals repent as well?

“monogomous homosexual”

Why do you put that in quotes? Is it somehow not real to you? Are we ignoring reality? Because, it’s funny: Lesbians knock straight people out of the park when it comes to monogamy…but it’s never really about Lesbians, now, is it? Um. Many gay men, as well, are monogamously coupled, and the trend among my generation and those younger is that monogamous marriage is much more the expected path in life, now that society has moved beyond much of its stagnation on the issue of gay people.

As to this last part:

A young man has temptations and it’s fully natural to desire sex, but to yield to it is a different situation altogether.

Consider something for me:

A young heterosexual man is tempted to be a man-slut, yet has a completely viable option for expressing his sexuality with a woman he’s committed to for life.

A young homosexual man is tempted to be a man-slut, yet has no viable option for expressing his sexuality? Because gay men aren’t attracted to women. At all. Never were. Never will be. This is pure biology. Studies have shown that, in men, the sexual response actually comes before the constructed sexual thought, brain-wise. As in, men react sexually before the actual “thought” of engaging in sex actually crosses our minds. As in, scientific confirmation/explanation of what we’ve always known to be true: men are stimulated visually. You can try all you want, but you’re never going to convince me that a consistent biological reaction is a temptation from Satan.

So, since we know that “ex-gay” ministries are money-sucking frauds (ask them for their numbers, seriously…they become dumbstruck), and we surely aren’t going to argue that ALL gay people are “called to a life of celibacy,” (because there are much more efficient ways for God to call people), then isn’t it possible that there’s more in play here than a simple blanket condemnation of a group of believers who happen to be gay seeking fellowship and understanding with a group of evangelicals?

I mean, look, the gay community bears the spiritual scars inflicted by the established Christian religion. What grace Soulforce is showing these people by reaching out to them!

Agreed, but my point is that homosexual activities by definition has to do with sex

Yes, but I believe we can all agree that in marriage, sex is but one small part of the equation. Believe me, those on the anti-gay side are much more fixated on gay sex than those on the pro-gay side.

I think this is part of the problem, too. Our marriages aren’t “activities.” They’re marriages, with all the good, bad, sickness, health, richer, poorer, and everything else!

When I hear the phrase “homosexual activities”, I think of things like antiquing , shopping for clothes , and going to the symphony. I could probably add a few more.

It’s just an odd phrase to me. It’s funny what Christians will say to avoid using the word “sex”.

When I hear the phrase “homosexual activities”, I think of things like antiquing , shopping for clothes , and going to the symphony.

You forgot the ballet, interior design, figure skating, mixed drinks, attractive lighting, and using expensive hair products.

To be honest Phil your exactly the person my gay friend says stabs me with a smile…Sometime you got to say where you stand , and then your piss Evan off ..

To be honest Phil your exactly the person my gay friend says stabs me with a smile…Sometime you got to say where you stand , and then your piss Evan off ..

Um, OK…I don’t know exactly what you’re referring to.

I was just being silly. Chill out, man. The funny thing is that most of stuff on Evan’s list is stuff I would enjoy as well. I’m actually do lighting design and engineering professionally, which I find kind of ironic.

Where I stand is this. I think it’s stupid for Christians to go around drawing lines in the sand when most of us don’t do anything to pull people out the sand they’re drowning in. And I don’t just mean by “preaching the Gospel” to them. I mean serving them, inviting them for dinner, becoming their friends, and see them as people, not a project.

If we see people instead of “issues” a lot of our theological arguments will fade away, I think, and we’ll be in a place where maybe God can actually work.

I think that a lot of what Christians fight about is done out of self-preservation, and it’s actually a lack of trust in God that drives it.

Oh, and Andy, don’t worry, I’ve pissed Evan off before. Plenty.

Sorry Phil i didn’t mean that to come across as rude as it sounded…

All i’m saying you can be as nice as possible, as loving as possible,but eventually someone as to bring up the elephant in the room,and when you do it will hurt as much as if you had done it at the begining..

Ive had friends who felt hoodwinked by Christians, they felt they were accepted and then bammm ..

I know Rob as no problems with a Christian being honest from the off,being honest doesn’t mean being cruel…

Of course that was in a contexts of a Alpha course, so he was expecting honesty

Also this is a Christian forum, and it seems to me some people here feel the need to be down with the kids rather then be honest

Andy,
I have no doubt that is true. And the “hoodwinking” is just as wrong, IMO, as the issue they are seeking to rectify. I hate that we are guilty of doing that far too often.

peace,
Chad

Maybe i’m over reacting..My post above were more to do with this forum or a Christian course like Alpha,i just felt it odd they were at pains not go there, even when Rob wanted to..

“I get this forum”theres a lot of crappy Christians out there,but that doesn’t mean everytime a Christian comes here with scriptual truths their in their mold..
It erks me that they get called for basically speaking truth,while others don’t even raise a eyebrow for calling black white

Chad, another thing that should stand out in those Pauline verses is the word “homosexual,” a word which wasn’t actually used before the 19th century. When one goes back to earlier translations, 10 times out of 10, one finds that the words that have been carelessly (and purposefully) rendered as “homosexual” have very little to do with the word as we understand it today.

This is why there were usually 2 similar words next to each other, one of which, these days is replaced by “homosexual” out of convenience. You’re also very correct that the words used by Paul writing to the specific churches in Rome and Corinth do very specifically allude to cultural practices in those places which were extremely commonplace: pederasty, temple prostitution, and, as you noted, the violent custom of raping defeated soldiers, which was EXTREMELY widespread at the time. (This has implications in the Sodom & Gomorrah story, too. It wasn’t really about sex…it was about power.) What’s interesting is that there WERE concepts in those days and in those cultures of same gender people in relationships that at least share closer parallels to the concept of homosexuality as we understand today, which would be understood by the people of the time, but which fly over the heads of English speaking readers in modern times. They’re not the same concepts Paul addresses.

The other interesting thing is the assumption that conflating these specific terms with a modern understanding of homosexuality is valid because “this was homosexual practice (makes perfect!) as it manifested in those days.”

That would be logical, except that those specific prohibitions were NOT the only manifestations of homosexual practice (makes perfect!) in those times, nor before, nor after. There’s a lot of really interesting scholarly research out there on this, but you have to go to the “gay studies” section in Barnes & Noble to find the books.

BTT-
Thanks for adding that commentary.

Pastorboy: Not always. But when he did, let us not forget that Jesus is God in flesh. That is not to say we cannot name sin, but it does mean we need to recognize our limitations, ignorance and own sinfulness. The Holy Spirit is who convicts, not us.

peace,
Chad

BTT

If you use Biblical hermeneutics, you will understand that homosexuality is condemned both in the Old Testament and New Testament. It is also condemned today.

I like Chocolate, as far as candy goes.

Pastorboy wins!

Flimsy argument, though.

Now look, don’t make the other kids feel bad by flaunting your candygram all over the place in front of all the losers who didn’t get one.

Lets not forget that 1 Corinthians 6:10 tells us that slanderers will not enter the Kingdom.

I haven’t seen, in my 14 years of preaching in the local church, a church make headlines because it is splitting due to gossip. Is that a strawman? I don’t think so.

Well, it generally doesn’t make headlines, but I can assure you it happens. I known of congregations that have divided so many times that they make ameoba jealous.

I really don’t care that much about denominational schisms, as I don’t think denominations are very pleasing to God in the first place.

I guess my vote is always for local authority and the local congregation handling issues as they arise. What I don’t like is the need to have everything decided from some central authority. The reason is this – it’s very easy for a person with no investment in a place to issue an edict that he really doesn’t have to enforce. It’s much harder to deal with things on a local level. It’s messy. It’s time consuming. It’s frustrating. But I think that’s what we’re called to.

I guess it not so much the issue of what’s a sin and not. It’s how we deal with it. Can I say to a homosexual, “yes I believe there are things in your life that I think are sin, but that won’t stop me from spending time with you and getting to know you”?

“After reading this thread, it is depressing to think that in two centuries since Christ, we have watered down sin to the point that it seems all right to us. ”

Pastorboy, are you equally depressed and troubled over the overweight pastor who rails against homosexuality and then heads to Cracker Barrel for a 9 course feast?

And if Warren “truly loves” them, than he should lay down his life for them. I have never understood this penchant by some to change the biblical definition of what real love it from being a servant willing to die to being someone who will point out their flaws.

peace,
Chad

Cracker Barrel – now that’s something I wouldn’t mind being banned with a constitutional amendment…

My stomach starts churning at the very name.

those hellacious shoppes in the front…

My parents have actually bought stuff from there. My hidden shame…

My parents have actually bought stuff from there. My hidden shame…

me 2

I’m an idiot. I meant to say Golden Corral. I’m reading the comments on Cracker Barrel and was like, “huh? what store?” duh. I need a nap.

Probably.

Dumb Ignorant english guy here i lovedddd Cracker Barrel when i was there…

But i swear i’ve never ate so well as i did last month in Montreal wowee

Sounds like that other place…what is it…

Ryan’s Family Steakhouse.

Oh, and we used to have Barnhill’s in Memphis. That was gross. This giant cavernous space with endless vats of Macaroni & Cheese. Occasionally my parents would force us to go there after church…every other week, we ate somewhere good, but then my mom would all of a sudden go “MMMMMMM Barnhills” and I would make up a scheduling conflict and run away after church.

Gluttony is sin, but don’t change the subject.

The reason we can judge is that they call themselves Christian, yet they are flaunting a lifestyle of sin.

Whatever lifestyle of sin that they are flaunting (the GLBTA happens to be flaunting/promoting homosexual/transgender lifestyles) it must be confronted if they claim to be brothers and sisters and ‘its’ in Christ.

I don’t hear John Hagee shouting out the benefits of being overweight, BTW.

Tim, the log has been pulled out of my own eye. Its the hypocrites, the actors that need to pull the log out. Jesus is my log puller!

I am tired of people saying I have a log in my eye because they are trying to shove their lifestyle of sin down my throat and when they are called on it, they say I am the hypocrite!

So, Tim what you are saying is that when a person calls sin sin, they have a log in their eye? Jesus took the log out of my eye by being the payment for my sin. How about you?

BTT,

you wrote:

Yes, well Paul had lots of interesting views that don’t hold up to scrutiny.

This comment alone clearly makes my point that this is really about the authority of the Scripture and the unwillingness of many to submit to its judgment and scrutiny. You picked on a lot of my words, but did you really read the entire many paragraphs I wrote. I was very gracious.

You write as if you are suggesting that because there was also heterosexual sin that somehow homosexual sin is justifiable. I just don’t understand this.

And finally, for the last time, I am not saying that homosexual people cannot be ‘embraced’ in the church. That same Corinthian passage says we ARE to associate with the ’sexually immoral’ among whom are included homosexuals (and he uses two words to define homosexuals too). Seriously, what I am saying is the same thing Adam said in the third reponse. There is a difference between those who acknowledge sin and struggle with temptation and those who flaunt it and try to make ‘right be wrong’ and ‘wrong be right.’

Science and ‘reality’ do not set the stage or define the standard of conduct and holiness in the Church. God does through Scripture. We really have no other options. Sorry.

with lowered eyes,
jerry

Tim, the log has been pulled out of my own eye. Its the hypocrites, the actors that need to pull the log out. Jesus is my log puller!

I am tired of people saying I have a log in my eye because they are trying to shove their lifestyle of sin down my throat and when they are called on it, they say I am the hypocrite!

So, Tim what you are saying is that when a person calls sin sin, they have a log in their eye? Jesus took the log out of my eye by being the payment for my sin. How about you?

Wow, PB, are you really saying that just because we’re Christians, we’re able to see everyone else’s sin and call them out on it perfectly? That’s pretty astounding stuff right there.

Jesus is my log puller!

Please acknowledge that you’ve just created the most hilarious bumper sticker ever and get to mass-producing it promptly.

PB said -

I don’t hear John Hagee shouting out the benefits of being overweight, BTW.

I see a very real “escape clause” for heterosexuals concerning this issue. Adultery happens to be one of the Ten Commandments and is often mentioned in the New Testament writings. However heterosexuals can practice it and reap its “benefits” and eventually “repent” of it while carrying its “benefits” with them.

Pastor Hagee is a prime example who committed adultery with a woman in his church in Texas (Trinity Church) and subsequently divorced his first wife, she was awarded custody, and married his partner in adultery and continued preaching.

Now in some sordid way, that is reaping the “benefits” of commiting adultery because you have taken out a written license from the government that says it is now OK to have relations with her because in the government’s eyes you are married. Monday it is adultery and by Tuesday “magically” you are now righteous in your actions, all because the government said you are now divorced and remarried.

See, you can continue your adultery and even be blessed by God in it as long as you clerically maneuver your civil status. Now we accept the government’s view of this but reject their view on abortion and homosexuality. We are shocked and militantly against same sex marriage but we hypocritically receive their blessing on adultery. And not only can your affair be blessed by God, you can still preach and rail against others for their sin. It is a Disneyland of our own creation.

This is the hypocrisy. This man still sleeps with the same woman but now he calls it blessed by God because he jumped through the civil hoops, but the homosexual must give up his sin before he can be received into fellowship. Pastor Hagee would not receive two practicing homosexuals into his church even though he has slept with his mistress for two decades and continues to do it. In Hagee’s case repentance means making is secularly legal – like abortion.

And back to PB’s point. Hagee shouts the benefits of his adultery in front of the congregation when he and his mistress tout their wonderful marriage and the blessing of the offspring of that relationship. All because of a $100 license from Babylon.

Rank hypocrisy.

I didn’t realize that about Mr Haggee thats very sad all round,reminds me of the David story a little with Jermiah(?)

I hope i’m, not coming across as someone who see’s the gay issue as a “speical”..I agree with Chris L pastor who made the clear distintion that all sexual sin was the same,i got the impression he wasn’t saying all sin was the same,because the consequences were so different for sexual sin, it hurts so many people etc wives husbands partners etc…

I really don’t know where i stand as far as two people who are in a open sexual relationship,and want to join a church…I would think you should allow them to come ,but surely there is a space of time when you would expect some acknowledgement from them that they need to change??

I am tired of people saying I have a log in my eye because they are trying to shove their lifestyle of sin down my throat and when they are called on it, they say I am the hypocrite!

Their lifestyle of sin doesn’t justify your lifestyle of sin.

So, Tim what you are saying is that when a person calls sin sin, they have a log in their eye? Jesus took the log out of my eye by being the payment for my sin. How about you?

Can you go a single post without questioning someone’s salvation?

Also, I’d point out that you’ve embraced a totally works based theology at this point. You’re as pelagian as Pelagius.

I am a sinner saved by Grace. The only good that is in me is Christ. I can do nothing to earn salvation. I can do nothing good in myself. God has changed me, now his commandments are not a burden. Though I still slip up, I am thankful everyday for his grace.

Those words are in direct contradiction to almost everything you’ve written on this thread.

PB-
This isn’t a matter of logs *sigh*
What you said in your last post contradicts all your judgments against others in everything else you have written. It’s not a matter of “see[ing] clearly into [your] life” it’s a simple matter of reading comprehension.

It’s not a matter of “see[ing] clearly into [your] life” it’s a simple matter of reading comprehension.

*chuckle*

*still chuckling*

*going to the grocery store now*

While you do occasionally quote someone’s writings you might as well just make up quotes since you twist a tiny portion of what they’ve written to turn them into boogiemen to justify your “watching”. This has been pointed out to you many many times.

While points 3 and 4 are something I agree with, your words these past few days are in direct contradiction with them.

Chad,

Are you gay? You tow the homosexual party line pretty well.

Are you saying that you can continue in sin so that grace can abound? You are saying this is an honest interpretation issue? huh?

Those who can proudly walk in sin are not converted. They are not new creatures in Christ. No interpretation needed.

Pastorboy,
I can’t speak for Chad, but I seem to see things from a similar perspective as him, although I might be a bit more conservative.

I don’t doubt that homosexual sex is sin. I think that all sex outside of marriage is sin.

That being said, I think this is an issue that the church has seriously dropped the ball on. The reason we have made it more about the issue instead of the person. We can’t simultaneously love people and fight an agenda (which I believe is largely a strawman). If we would focus on loving people the way we should, I really believe everything else would fall into place.

I for one am sick of people comparing themselves to the Apostle Paul. Sure Paul did have to take a hard line at times for the health of the local church, but he also endured beating and stonings for these same churches. Until I see pastors getting beat up for defending gay people, I don’t see much hope for the church really reaching them.

Until I see pastors getting beat up for defending gay people, I don’t see much hope for the church really reaching them.

And for the time being, it’s the Christian right that turns a blind eye when a gay kid gets murdered at school.

Phil, I think we see eye to eye on this and much more.

I readily confess this is an issue I struggle with. As a United Methodist pastor, this is an issue that always comes up in our annual conferences (ours will be held this coming week). There was a time not too long ago that I would be giving pastorboy a high-5.

BTT makes a great observation. What we think we have sewn up in nice, neat little doctrinal packages can quickly be deflated in the context of real life, real human interaction and relationship. I wonder if pastorboy has ever sat down and had a talk with a gay Christian. I have, and it convicted me. In fact, it made me question my own lack of faith in many ways. I found myself thinking, “wow, I wish I had trust in Jesus Christ like this person.” Sadly, I rely so often on my own righteousness and how well I have extracted this or that practice out of my own life. Though I claim the grace of Christ I find myself often disbelieving that can really be true by the way I try to uphold the law.

There are certain lifestyle practices I am confident in declaring as inompatible with a life that is seeking to become more like Christ. Abuse, whether on self or others, selfishness, greed, pride, idolatry, hate, grudges, and more – these are things that are not congruent with our Savior. Yet, when we come to Christ we often find that these behaviors and patterns take a lifetime to be eradicated from us (if they even are, fully). But as Christians we have the greater hope that one day they will, when God completes the work God has begun. Till then, I have to trust in that.

As I get closer to God I realize more and more that what I once did not think was sin really is. I discover that there are things in my life that God is always at work redeeming. It is possible that homosexuality is such a thing, but I am open to the possibility that it is not. I just don’t know. I do not believe, however, that this is the bar. I do not believe that a homosexual who has put their faith in Jesus Christ alone for their salvation will one day stand before God and be told, “sorry, you scored great on every area but this one. You should have been smarter about what is doctrinally correct.”

So if I seem like I straddle the fence, good. I do not want to be the gatekeeper to God’s grace,nor do I want to say anything goes. I can only point to the one who promises to draw all unto himself should he be lifted up.

peace,
Chad

1. Homosexuals do not “deny scripture.” They interpret it differently than you.

Something I would add to this. I would suggest that gay people who were raised in devoutly Christian homes actually dig a lot deeper into Scripture on these issues, merely because it’s personal. When you’re a gay kid/teen, yet you hear from a very young age from people you’re raised to respect that YOU, as you know you are, whether you’ve processed/accepted the implications of that or not, are “unclean” and shut off from God, it’s nothing short of spiritual torture. This is one reason it is phenomenally offensive to gay people when certain Christians throw out three or four of the “clobber passages,” as we call them, state “It’s the truth,” and assure us that they’re praying for us. It’s like, Oh You Arrogant Fool, You Think I Haven’t Spent Countless Hours With This?

Andy, I didn’t catch the hints from Chad that you’re referring to, but I can personally attest to the fact that there is no middle ground between openly gay and “used to be openly GLBT yet now think it’s sinful.” From a psychological perspective, it’s utterly unsurprising that the only “success stories” in the “ex-gay” business tend to become rabidly conservative, theologically AND politically, and tend to become spokespeople for the ex-gay “ministries.” The rest of the people who go through their programmes tend to fall back into self-hatred, some commit suicide, and others are lucky enough to find themselves on the other side as ex-”ex-gays,” who join support groups to deal with the scars inflicted by the Christian church.

He doesn’t know PB from a hole in the ground,but its so very easy to throw out “I wonder if PB as ever sat down with a gay person”

To imply of course you haven’t, the likes of you would never do that,to imply PB beliefs were formed in a vacuum and he never ever sees the pain they cause on people or he would change them…

He doesn’t know who PB knows!!!

………………………………………….

I’m not a conserative i’m a member of the UK socialist party (guess i’m a contradiction)

If thats what you meant sorry..

But to me it come across as one of them Prosecutor throwing out a line, thats too late to stike from the jury

……………………………………………………

anyhow circles GB all

No worries, Andy.

When I confess that I am on the fence with this issue I really mean it. I have heard in the last few years great arguments for both sides of the issue. And BOTH sides have a very high view of scripture and take it very seriously (it does no good to attack someone who disgrees with you as simply not taking scripture seriously).
What I will say is this: I do believe there is room in God’s kingdom for homosexuals. Just as there is room for me and everyone else here. Heck, I have a hard enough time reigning in my anger at other people (i.e. committing murder in God’s sight) or reeling in my own selfish ambitions when it comes to dealing with my 4 kids and my wife. I am reminded of my own sinfulness every Sunday that I break the bread and share the wine with my congregation. God forbid that I forbid them the same grace God gives me daily.

peace,
Chad

Rick: You are an enigma to me I like that.

haha, you haven’t seen the half of it, Chad.

Rick= conundrums built on enigmas built on one-liners.

Chad – I refuse to tow anyone’s party line. I am a Scriptural fundamentalist but a liberal grace believer. I speak stringly against what I consider heresy but I speak even more strongly against believers criticizing unbelievers and the personal sins of brothers and sisters in Christ.

There is too much intrenchment in several camps. I have come to believe the Jesus Camp has moving parts from many different camps which are held together by His grace.

Rick: “I speak even more strongly against believers criticizing unbelievers and the personal sins of brothers and sisters in Christ.”

Amen.

Yes, well, the United Kingdom is a particular hotbed of Islamic radicalism these days, whereas in the United States, this is not quite the case. Most of the Muslims I’ve been friends with have been private school Muslims, with parents who are doctors and lawyers. Yet most of them were born outside the United States. One is Pakistani and has family in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Granted, the Muslim world is behind the West on the gay issue, but different nations are making progress at different rates. There will always be the blatant human rights abusers like Saudi Arabia and Iran, but then again, there’s also Dubai, and that, not America or Britain, is what young Middle Eastern and Persian Muslims aspire to more and more these days.

So.

As with most things, it is an issue chock-full of nuance, a concept which is ever-elusive for some people, usually on the radical ends of either faith.

Anyway, back to teh gay…

I didn’t say they were different…

I just find Evan a contradiction thats all ,i should of sent him it privately…

I digressed as usual

There will always be the blatant human rights abusers like Saudi Arabia and Iran, but then again, there’s also Dubai, and that, not America or Britain, is what young Middle Eastern and Persian Muslims aspire to more and more these days.

Plus Ahmadinejad said there are no gay people in Iran.

Which was SO funny.

The funny thing about the gay issue in many Muslim nations is that there is a common yet unspoken cultural idea that “women are for procreation, men are for pleasure.” What they tend to rebel against is gay people living their lives as gay people, which kind of drives a Mack Truck through that convenient little arrangement.

PB,

2. You obviously don’t understand slander. Slander is lying about somebody and dragging their name through the mud. Slander is not quoting people directly from their writings and assessing what it means in light of scripture.

This is good PB, except when someone showed you how you misrepresented that other persons writings… and then you continue to slander him… When showed a clear quote you still took one sentence out of context of two whole pages of disclaimer and explanation and twisted it to say what you wanted so it make that person be what you wanted.

Truth does nto need to be twisted to fit you or your views… I pray for you.

I just see instead of a repentant heart you continue to justify your sin and then condemn others instead of facing your own… that seems typical ODM practice.

iggy

Yep, and shaking sticks at their government doesn’t help.

I know a woman here who’s from Iran originally, and she tells the most interesting stories about what a quiet subversive culture the college students and young professionals have developed over there. She mentioned something about how people don’t tend to go out for fun in Tehran, because of the restrictive laws, but instead people have parties, and the first stop the girls make when they get to somebody’s house is a mad communal rush to the bathroom where they throw off the regulated dress, and replace it with high fashion and Western make-up. Then they’re ready.

I would never have guessed!

OMG speaking of, and tying the two subjects together, if you haven’t seen the digital short Saturday Night Live (Andy Samberg) did after Mahmoud said that, you MUST find it. It’s called “I Ran,” and it is the funniest thing I’ve seen in a LONG time.

Chad,

A gay Christian is an oxymoron. So is an adulterous Christian. Therefore, I have never known a gay or adulterous or lying (all of the above as a lifestyle) Christian. I have known homosexuals (and adulterers, and liars, and fornicators) who have claimed Christ, but the fruit of their life proved otherwise.

Jesus will say to many who say to him LORD LORD that he never knew them, because the PRACTICED lawlessness. In other words, they were in a pattern, a lifestyle, that characterized their lives more than Christ did.

Do people sin? YES. Christians fall into sin, they don’t plan it, or dive into it. They certainly do not say repeatedly that it is not sin.

What about racist Christians?

Or what about drunk, gluttoness, or prideful Christians? I would suspect PB’s heaven is pretty empty.

Jesus will say to many who say to him LORD LORD that he never knew them, because the PRACTICED lawlessness.

Wasn’t he yelling at religious people when he said that?

BTT LoL!!

But I don’t know satire….

Phil,
You are doing what you accuse me of. Thats not what the Bible says or I say. Paul makes the distinction..”.and that is what some of you WERE”….in other words, when people repent and trust the Savior, he changes them. We become new Creatures, with new desires.

The road is narrow, so God’s heaven is pretty empty. I am sure glad he loved me enough to take a wretched sinner like me and create in me a new heart

No duh, Tim….

Thats why God paid the penalty for me.

The road is narrow, so God’s heaven is pretty empty.

Wow, what a neat God you serve! Gimme some-a that, in a size 12, please.

Thats why God paid the penalty for me.

Now, PB, don’t lie, it’s not just you; you know the sweepstakes rules said you could pick two kids from your class to go to heaven with you too!

The man in Corinth who was committing a sin not even mentioned among the Gentiles was saved. Seems as if he was not only practicing that sin, he was accomplishing it.

“I have never known a gay or adulterous or lying (all of the above as a lifestyle) Christian.”

I never knew anyone who I actually knew was saved. I am not sure I have ever met someone who claimed to be a Christian who wasn’t a liar on some level.

The sad thing is that scattered throughout those millions are those who couldn’t break free of the shame, abandonment, disapproval, and yes, hatred inflicted by people like Pastorboy, claiming to be a conduit for the holy God, and thus showing not God’s love, but God’s rejection, to innocent kids, yes, scattered throughout those millions are those who, in their human weakness, couldn’t stomach the fight, and thus, chose to end the fight pre-emptively, and now they are known as “statistics.”

I believe God asks more of me than to cash in a get out of hell free card, so that I may pursue life from the top of a self-constructed pedestal of self-gratifying perceived “holiness,” while clinging to the deniability of a bastardization of grace.

The words of Jesus from one end of the gospels to the other lead me to believe that Jesus would be utterly appalled and offended that anyone would dare use his name to justify treating people, not as people, but as mere faces to be preached at with the same tired script, again and again, who, if they do not immediately surrender to stale arguments and their accompanying Church Lady glares of condemnation, may be merely crossed off the list as less than people, as cold-called customers who really were eating dinner right now, thank you, goodbye, so that the pastor may inflict his wordhole on the next unsuspecting victim.

And pre-emptively, I’ll just let you know, PB, that it is I who will be praying for you this evening.

OK.

THX.

BYE.

It’s the barriors that I cannot reconcile in my heart and mind. Jesus Himself urged us to lift Him up and He would draw men to Himself. Paul says to the jailor to “believe” without any caveats. We’ve even made the word “repent” mean the act of giving up sins before a sinner can believe on Christ.

Some suggest that a sinner must be absolutely convinced of the depth of his sin before he can be saved, and yet my own conversion experience contradicts that theology. I believed on Christ because I became convinced He was God in the flesh and that He was the only way to eternal life.

Honestly, the night I got saved I never gave my sin a thought. Sitting on top of Garrett Mountain overlooking the Manhatan skyline I believed on Jesus as my Savior without taking inventory of my sins which were many.

So if a person must identify their sins, recognize their depth, and turn from them then it must be all sins. There is more Scripture for that than culling out certain sins. If a man has left his wife and he now lives with his pregnant mistress, and he is not yet divorced, must he return to his wife before he can get saved?

Oh you say, he must be willing. OK, what if a man who has been married for 20 years and has been faithful to his wife, and you are witnessing to him in his living room and he desires to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, but he hates his mother. Does he have to completely forgive his mother who molested him before he can get saved? What if he paid for the house in which he lives with embezzled funds?

These barriors to salvation are unscriptural or all or nothing. What if a man has had a sex change from a man to a woman, can he get saved before he changes back? Or does he have to be willing to have reversal surgery? I sincerely believe we severely limit God’s grace by making our own Christian Talmuds with our own rules because we cannot trust God to work in a person’s life, we must add things to the gospel.

It is such a miracle that at least 3000 people on Pentecost left their sinful lives completely on that day and were saved. And today, the sin that is mentioned only a few times, is the one which we demand a complete forsaking before they can be a candidate for salvation. Very strange.

So on what basis is it OK to eat with a “Christian” gay group whose express purpose for being at Saddleback, by their own words, is to change the way Christians view sodomy? How is that loving? Does God’s Word mean anything at all?

On the same basis that its ok to eat with groups of Christians who’s express purpose for being on the web is to slander and accuse the saints of sin, ala Chris L and Chris P.

I don’t want to be in their place on judgement day, nor do I want to be the pastor who coddled them in their sin.

You are in your place, and you are a coddling pastor. Just replace homosexuality with slander.

Would you eat with Roman Catholics who wish to conform us to their doctrine? Mormons? At the very least a pastor could share his heart and Biblical truth in a way which could be used of the Spirit in their lives. I mean he isn’t allowing them pulpit time, just a meal.

Your “humbled sinners” template is extremely myopic. I wasn’t even aware of my sin, and yes a sanctification process began which continues today. On the day of Pentecost Peter presented Christ as the Messiah without any thesis on sin. It is interesting that Peter doesn’t go through the Ten Commandments even though on that day he still had to learn complete grace. The atonement itself speaks of sin, but I fail to see the New Testament command to abandon sin before you believe.

And if a gay person believes on Christ and does not change, and you conclude it reveals he isn’t saved, so what? And what if he really didn’t get saved, so what? I know I have baptized people who I think later really were not saved, but I cannot see their heart, I can only hear their voice.

Are we afraid of false converts? We have them already, and what harm does it do for a sinner to come and hear us teach the Word? Christ commanded us to spread the seed on all ground which only LATER would reveal some signs of its spiritual health.

If a gay couple is faithful to come and listen on Sunday but they never leave their lifestyle, at what point must they leave? At what point must the people who are not gay but continue in hedonism or praylessness or unforgiveness or continue to drink excessively, at what point are they asked to leave?

The Corinthian Church was filled with all kinds of sin. They were gossips, idolaters, haters, greedy, divisive, drunken, and Paul even mentions being gay (effeminate), but Paul only instructs them to break fellowship with one man, and HE was a heterosexual. Was Paul a coddler?

I believe it is hypicritical for a church to single out people with a real attraction to the opposite sex, while this church has borrowed obscene amounts of money to construct an edifice which requires obscene amounts of money to maintain, and the Word Is CLEAR that is a sin. The glass houses principle applies directly here.

Notice I didn’t even mention the many choir members who are divorced and remarried, some with their mistress. The church has become a club for cultural Pharisees who judge the ever growing number of gays but without the compassion to even have a few nightly prayer meetings for their own wayward children, much less someone else’s.

Five years ago I started what I called “Children of Promise” which was a group of believers who had children who either were not saved or were living a wrong lifestyle. We got together (25 to 80) once a month for brokenness and prayer. Some parents had gay children After several months the pastor disbanded us in favor of the Celebrate Recovery ministry by Saddleback.

That same pastor preached against gays. The church is 25 million dollars in debt and yet does not entertain one night of prayer a week or a month. They are symbolic of the American Masonic Hall club church. Let us lay down our philacteries and admit we need a massive revival ourselves, but until then we will make spiritual assessments with our carnal and religious mindsets.

I do not believe that eating with such a group once to speak to them and listen as well indicates a close fellowship. And just to be sure, don’t serve steak, just serve bologna so they know we are serious!

Rick,

I guess you and I have differing views on the purpose of church. Church (to me) is a place where regenerate people meet to be built up and equipped and for biblical fellowship. This is so they can go out and be the church to thier unregenerate friends.

I am suggesting that Rick and Bill having lunch with these folks is not wrong in itself. I am indicating that if they do not take their responsibility as Pastors (high profile ones at that) to warn these unregenerate people. Bill and Rick have the habit of eating with these different groups and only speaking to them about where they agree, which is a tacit approval of their chosen political/ethical stance.

PB,

You have slandered… repent.

iggy

I have not slandered. Slander is not when we disagree. Just because I disagree with your view does not mean I am slandering you or the people I write about.

Everytime you write that Rob Bell is a universalist you’ve slandered him. Everytime you write an entry and twist and pervert what a great many people have written to make them into heretics for you to hunt you slander them.

Everytime you call Chris L and his wife liars by claiming the satirical piece he wrote was meant seriously you slander.

The pages of this blog are filled with testimonies of your slander.

And if it is slander, I challenge those who I have supposedly slandered to take me to court and sue me.

So now you want a secular court deciding what sin is.

Repent pastorboy.

“Again conjecture with no real proof.”

But on the other hand, because they haven’t publicly said otherwise, we could also say that you offer a defense for them as conjecture with no real proof to the contrary.

And if it is slander, I challenge those who I have supposedly slandered to take me to court and sue me.

The problem is, PB, most of your targets take Jesus’ message a bit more seriously than you appear to, and wouldn’t sue you because you are a brother in Christ, and we are told we shouldn’t sue you – even if you slander us…

Ken,

“But on the other hand, because they haven’t publicly said otherwise, we could also say that you offer a defense for them as conjecture with no real proof to the contrary.”

Defending the practice of painting an opponent’s actions in the least flattering light possible, and then arguing it’s justified because your opponent hasn’t specifically denied it, seems to me like an open invitation to engage in gossip, rumor-mongering, and fruitless divisiveness.

It’s a pretty simple idea: In the absence of information, it’s not a “defense,” per se, to counter an attack. It’s just the wisdom of knowing that without all the information, sometimes it’s just best to keep your mouth shut.

The gospel lesson for today (if you use lectionary) that I just preached from has a radically different view of what the church ought to be.
Matthew 9, Jesus calls Matthew, a tax collector, the scum of the earth as far as Jews are concerned, and has a big party with him and all his tax collecting and sinning friends. It is so outrageous that the relgious people of the day who think that the church is all about having a holy huddle of regenerates

But they changedddddddddd that is the flipping point of all the post here, some people are saying people don’t need too and thats plainly not right..

The truth of the matter Chad you do not think a gay person needs to change,you’ve bent over backwards to make their lifestyle acceptable, and even posted to imply the bible wasn’t even about them…

I have written a post called “Insulated From Human Stories” which can be found by clicking on my name. (the link is being moderated because of the abundance of curse words).

Everytime ive tried to be compassionate but honest ive been called a c*&*

Wowee Rick its a hard tightrope to walk compassionate but honest huh?

Maybe i’m being cynical or the people i know are, but they would say there is no way you can be compassionate while deny my being

Ok obviously i’m not saying we shouldn’t be compassionate,just not sure if it will ever be received as compassionate when were honest..

I agree 100% with your post, i was just saying in my crappy way, that i would think its nearly impossible to be preceived as compassionate when your being honest about a persons lifestle (any lifestyle)

I agree 100% if your directing this towards people you meet in life…

Would you say “i offer acceptance unconditionally” to a person who continues in sin (any) who was a member of your church?

It seems to me we have two groups of people here, one that want to concentrate on the fact that Jesus ate with sinners,and those who want to concentrate on the fact he told them to sin no more..

Maybe i come across as the latter, i’m sorry if i do…

grace and truth its a truly nice mix

Andy:But they changedddddddddd that is the flipping point of all the post here, some people are saying people don’t need too and thats plainly not right..

The truth of the matter Chad you do not think a gay person needs to change,you’ve bent over backwards to make their lifestyle acceptable, and even posted to imply the bible wasn’t even about them…

Chad: Andy, I’m not sure why you seem to insist find me so disagreeable.
First, at least as far as Matt. 9 is concerned, we don’t know that anyone changed. All we know is that Jesus ate with this group.
Second, we can infer that they may have changed, but that isn’t the point. The point is that whether they did or did not, Jesus had fellowship with them.
Third, if they did change, it could just have possibly been from being in the presence of love embodied rather than from any specific argument Jesus made.
Finally, I am not “bending over backwards to make their lifestyle acceptable.” I am, however, bending over backwards to extend grace to sinners like myself.

peace,
Chad

Andy, I’m not sure why you seem to insist find me so disagreeable.

I don’t

In fact you would fine me the weirdest fundies in real life,in fact i’m very much a Dolphus Raymond character in real life…

What i find a joke about this thread is the fact that Rick,Iggy,Phil and a few others do think its a sin,but there rather slam PB for saying it (i agree said slightly harshly) then they would confront the fact that you tried to make the bible suit your ideas, for the sake of being “compassionate” which is a pointless exercise on this forum where the cards are on the table!! I see that as fundamentally dishonest ..

Ken: “Again conjecture with no real proof.”

But on the other hand, because they haven’t publicly said otherwise, we could also say that you offer a defense for them as conjecture with no real proof to the contrary.

Ken,

Can you show me a passage where Jesus is sitting with homosexuals and tells them that they are in sin?

Show me one verse… ok?

In fact show me one verse where Jesus states anything against any “sinner”. (even as you have redefined the word sin.)

Now then I can show you whole gospels where Jesus speaks out against religious leaders who are self righteous… and that is not conjecture.

Jesus did state an interesting thing though…

John 12:47. “As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. 48. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.

Now, if Jesus does not even condemn others (including sinners) as you have Rick Warren and others in this thread… are you better than Jesus?

iggy

BTT – the issue of tha act itself is not what I am addressing. I must come to understand some do not see it as wrong and those like you must understand the same. My post was exploring the possibility of some inetersect apart from that point.

Oh, I know where you’re coming from, Rick. All I’m pointing out is that people act like this is some giant heretical issue or something, when in reality, we’re talking about 6 far-flung passages which many scholars make a strong case have less than zilch to do with gay people as we understand things today. It’s like, come on, priorities, people.

What I find especially upsetting is the completely lack of either pathos for these people, or even the ones who reject any meeting they do it with such self righteousness and void of any desire to find some bridge to reach them.

I don’t think anyones advocating not meeting anyone here though are they?

Ok i want to be really clear, if i’ve upset anyone i apologise ..

My only point about this thread is that there is dividing line in this all conversation…

Firstly how we interact with people who arn’t Christians, which is obviously how we would want them to treat us…

Then secondly how far our compassion stretches with how ANYYYYYYYY person chooses to live their life after their saved…

A lot of people have implied the reactions in this thread are just because its about the Gay Issue well 1) its the subject matter of the thread and 2) if it was another equivalent issue i would feel the same

Actually, the overriding principle which must be pursued is how can Christians discipline their own views to come into unilateral alignment with mine.

Until then, there can be only partial reconciliation. Study guides upon request.

Actually the point really isn’t how people interact with non-Christians.

It’s how people interact with other Christians who disagree with them.

Until people get that straight, there will be no reconciliation or understanding.

……………………………………………………………..
Which is a two way street ,which this forum on the whole does well ,people have different views and they seem to get on

Andy,

He didn’t have to, as he said earlier were all condemed already,thats the benchmark before we even move

Now don’t jump ahead of class! LOL!

That is my point… we are all sinners… so how can someone like PB condemn another sinner when he stands condemned without Jesus also!

This subtle twist of doctrine many believe and sickly practice promotes a sort of elite class of sinners who can condemn other sinners “by grace”… and how sick is that!?!?!?!

I see this as missing the point completely as to the mission of Jesus. He came to condemn SIN in man… not man in sin… Romans 8 3-4 states this…

“… And so he condemned sin in sinful man,
4. in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us..”

These men like PB, preach the ministry of death and condemnation… as Paul stated this is not OUR message.

2 Cor 3: 7-12
7. Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was,
8. will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9. If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10. For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11. And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! 12. Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold.

They still serve the Law and attack those who seek to bring reconciliation to those Jesus forgave.

iggy

Prove to me Rob Bell is not a Universalist, Tim. Prove to me that Doug Pagitt is not one. You cannot, and therefore Iggy, Tim, et.al., you don’t have a leg to stand on.

Doug and Rob have visited my Blog, Doug has commented on it. They do not deny what I have written. If they could they would accuse me of Slander. They have not. So why do you?

Doug teaches people can lose their salvation as he is arminian… so you can’t have him teaching all are saved and some can lose their salvation at the same time…

Think about that for a bit… the repent and confess and apologize to a lot of people.

iggy

Prove to me Rob Bell is not a Universalist, Tim.

I guess his own word (in multiple sermons and speeches on multiple occasions) isn’t good enough for you. I didn’t realize that the onus of proving one has not sinned is on the sinner, but rather it is upon the accuser, which you have utterly failed at doing in any sort of honest way.

Doug and Rob have visited my Blog

Shennanigans – Bell doesn’t read about himself on the web – a purposeful decision. If he’s not commented there, then you have no evidence of this.

They do not deny what I have written. If they could they would accuse me of Slander. They have not. So why do you?

Wow – even the pagans have more integrity than you, PB.

Hands down.

Iggy – If all people are saved without faith, with what scenario would it be possible for these people to lose it.

1. An American Christian
2. A Muslim
3. An atheist
4. A scientologist

I have heard Doug Pagitt say that after death a Muslim will have a chance to be saved even if he dies without believing in Christ. That doesn’t sound like he dies already saved.

I have heard Doug Pagitt say that after death a Muslim will have a chance to be saved even if he dies without believing in Christ. That doesn’t sound like he dies already saved.

I have not heard Doug say this… but I have heard him say that if he served Jesus, though not knowing the name specific “Jesus” then that person be them of another religion will be saved.

We are saved not by the surname Jesus, but by the Name that Jesus represented… The Name of God is bigger than “Joshua” or “Jesus” or “Yeshua”…

The sheep were just as surprised they got into “heaven” as the goats who did not. The difference is that the sheep heard the Shepherds voice and obeyed it.

Jesus stated in

John 10: 25. Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father’s name speak for me, 26. but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

when the Bible states at the Name of Jesus every knee will bow, it is not the surname, but all that God did in the Person of Jesus that the “Name” represents.

iggy

“but I have heard him say that if he served Jesus, though not knowing the name specific “Jesus” then that person be them of another religion will be saved.”

That is not substantiated by Scripture, it is works theology, and it completely undermines the great commission. You desconstruct the name of God which He alone has the authority to present. The Word says “Jesus”, not any reasonable facimile.

What you presented is certainly not what the New Testament teaches. Neither is there salvation in any other. How can they believe if THEY HAVEN’T HEARD. If you will believe in your heart that God has raised Jesus from the dead you shall be saved.

You have suggested that men can be saved WITHOUT THE GOSPEL. You are free to believe that, but you cannot make the New Testament say that salvation can be earned by SERVING some unnamed deity without FAITH IN THE GOSPEL.

Whos that to Tim?

It also makes more sense in light of the passages that say things like “judge not, lest ye, be judged” and “Forgive, and you will be forgiven.”

It makes more sense to say Jesus saved everyone (Chad) than to say people who “serve Jesus” without knowing Him are awarded salvation because of their good works.

Getting back to the point of the original post, I think that the comments here have been a great object lesson as to why people thought it was so scandalous for Jesus to eat with the wrong people. Evidently things haven’t changed a lot in the last 2,000 years.

Rick,
Don’t look now but you just left the door open for atonement descriptors other than penal substitutionary atonement.

Rick = Emergent! OH GNOS!!!!

Trust me if i was scandalised by this meeting, i couldnt meet with 99.9% of my friends..

Andy,
I wasn’t referring to your comments at all, actually. I should have been more clear. Mainly it’s reactions like PB’s that I was referring to.

I think the question, Andy, really becomes – how quickly must a person be convicted of specific sins and repent of them – and how quickly must that repentance be worked out (going back to my polygamy example, for a more stark instance)?

I agree totally,i’m not saying as Christian we meet somone,they say a magic little prayer and Bam their no longer sining..Its a process,but its a process that needs some kind of acceptance of your position, if your going to makes steps in the right direction? I sin constantly i’m not saying i’m any better then anyone..

My post were entirely a reaction to the idea that a person could stay as Jesus finds them,and more so say the bible confirms there lifestyle..

Well, what do you do in that situation? It seems to me if someone really has a position that what they’re doing isn’t sin, there isn’t much we can do but pray for them. Obviously, if they’re doing something that’s clearly harming themselves and/or others we should intervene, but other than that what can you do?

I wouldn’t want a person in church leadership if he held a view I thought was really wrong, but I don’t know that I would exclude him from being involved in all aspects of a church. I think at some point we just have to trust the Holy Spirit to change hearts and minds.

By the way, Andy, if you highlight the text you want to quote and hit the little box above the area where you type your comments that says “B-quote” it will offset the text you want to quote. It just makes it easier to follow things.

Chris you really are the voice of reason!!

The bottom line is about how we interact with people “With this understanding how would the “righteousness” of God impact our interaction with Gays”

I’d hate to come across as this,Rob was at a party last month and spoke to a woman and she eventually said “oh wowee your so nice ,your disabled but your really normal arn’t you”

Rob “hummmm thks”

I know that’s the main issue here, we don’t allow what someone is,change the way we love them, or God forbid as an excuse to stop loving them at all

Phil i really don’t know the answers..

I will be discreet here,but a friend over there, her best friend is having an affair with a married guy in their Church,and my friends pleaded with her to stop,but the girls deluded “hes leaving his wive, he loves me” etc etc.

I asked her what she going to do and she said “you dumbass,i’m going to love her and pick up the peices when’s its finished”

Andy,
Well, that’s a good example. I think in that case, I would think the guy needs to be confronted as well, and his wife needs to know if she doesn’t. Obviously, though, there is not guarantee they will listen to anyone.

But Rick is right, there is a much higher probability that this guy and girl will be welcomed back into the church than if it were a single man admitting to a homosexual relationship.

“so maybe things are changing???”

Yes, but slowly and in some unhealthy ways. Some remain entrenched, some are considering change, some are pioneering change, and then some have completely left Scripture.

So there is change, but it’s like releasing the cattle with some sections of the fence broken down. We need preachers to spend some time in prayer and the Word and see where our attitudes need change.

andy it was comment 242 I think..

and you were not rude…

iggy

BTW, I find the parallels to this group that Rick Warren is meeting with and Pastorboy to be startling similar. Though both engage in lifestyles that are clearly Biblically wrong, both justify it by scripture in various ways. The difference is, of course, that pastorboy claims that grace cannot cover this situation. Which leaves him in quite the quandary.

Rick,

That is not substantiated by Scripture, it is works theology, and it completely undermines the great commission. You desconstruct the name of God which He alone has the authority to present. The Word says “Jesus”, not any reasonable facimile.

The the author of Hebrews lied… and as well Moses when he wrote of Abraham…

Hebrews 6: 13. When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself,
14. saying, “I will surely bless you and give you many descendants.”
15. And so after waiting patiently, Abraham received what was promised.
16. Men swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument.
17. Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath.
18. God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged.
19. We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain,
20. where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.

But really i think you should read Hebrews 11:

Hebrews 11

1. Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
2. This is what the ancients were commended for.
3. By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
4. By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.
5. By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.
6. And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. 7. By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
8. By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.
9. By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise.
10. For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
11. By faith Abraham, even though he was past age–and Sarah herself was barren–was enabled to become a father because he considered him faithful who had made the promise.
12. And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
13. All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth.
14. People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own.
15. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return.
16. Instead, they were longing for a better country–a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

God saved them just as he does today… by Grace through faith… and Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever…

BTW there is no deconstruct of the Name of God… He is not just Jesus… He is the Triune God…

Matt 28: 19. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

He is Father Son and Holy Spirit… and not just Jesus… You are defending modalism… I am teaching,

1 Tim 2:5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Galatians 3: 20. A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.

Just for good measure, what Name did man begin to call on in Genisis… was it Jesus?

Gen 4:26. Seth also had a son, and he named him Enosh. At that time men began to call on the name of the LORD.

Be careful as that is what the Kabbalist did. They made God’s Name which is sacred into a magical thing and desecrated it. IF you are correct we are all damned. Jesus real name is Joshua… so we better be calling on the Name of Joshua to be saved and preaching in the Name of Joshua so that others will be saved…

iggy

And then you come up with absolute gems like this. Was Mandy coaching you?

That’s funny you say that. Every week after service there’s an older guy that comes up to Mandy and tells her “you did a great job on the sermon this week kiddo”. Are you guys trading notes or what?

Iggy – there is a difference between the Old Testament and the New. Paul tells the Athenians that before Jesus men were ignorant and that God “winked” at such ignorance, but now God calls all men to repent of that ignrance and believe on Jesus because,

He has appointed a day in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by THAT man, whereof He has given assurance unto all men in that He has raised Him from the dead.

Adam did not know YHWH, Moses dod not know Yeshua, but now God has fully revealed Himself

and has spoken unto us by His Son whom He has appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds, Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person…

Without the gospel now, in these last days, there is no salvation. The orthodox Jews who do not believe in Jesus as their Savior but believe in Jehovah, they are not saved because of unbelief they have been broken off that those of us by fath may be grafted in.

There is no salvation apart from living faith in the living gospel of Jesus Christ, not some shadow without the gospel.

John,
The only problem is that Jesus isn’t really speaking to pagans in any of those portions of Scripture. In Revelation, He’s talking to churches. A church, by definition, is a collection of Christians.

In the passage in Matthew, Jesus is talking about Jewish towns, not Roman ones. These were towns where the chosen people lived. Isn’t it odd that he specifically warns that the chosen people are in more danger of judgement than sinful pagan towns?

In fact, if you read the verses directly before the Matthew text, he’s on a theme about judgmental, inhospitable religious people.

“Universalism is a religion and theology that generally holds all persons and creatures are related to God or the divine and will be reconciled to God. A church that calls itself Universalist may emphasize the universal principles of most religions and accept other religions in an inclusive manner, believing in a universal reconciliation between humanity and the divine. Other religions may have Universalist theology as one of their tenets and principles, including Christianity, Hinduism, and some of the New Age religions. ”

Doug Pagitt says he is not a Universalist. Yet he says all people, whether they be buddhists muslims etc. will be reconciled and restored and welcomed into the kingdom of God.

Iggy,
“but I have heard him say that if he served Jesus, though not knowing the name specific “Jesus” then that person be them of another religion will be saved.
We are saved not by the surname Jesus, but by the Name that Jesus represented… The Name of God is bigger than “Joshua” or “Jesus” or “Yeshua”…”

and that isn’t heresy? That sounds like Oprah saying that if it brings them to the same point that it brings you it does not matter if they called it God along the way or not”

There is salvation in no other name, Iggy.

Tim,

Chris L is a big boy. He can defend himself. But to that I say that it still is not satire IMHO, it was a clear ad-hominem attack. But he is not the only one guilty, you do quite well in attacking me. I bet you wish you could cuss me out!

BTW – all the fringe statements like “I bet you wish you could cuss me out” just detract from what should be legitimate dialogue concerning truth.

Regardless of how deep the disagreements, Chris, Tim, and even Joe are brothers in Christ by grace alone. Our enemy is not each other, it is the devil who sometimes disguises himself as us. My problems with anyone here pale to the problems I have sometimes with myself!

Chris L is a big boy. He can defend himself. But to that I say that it still is not satire IMHO

Ah yes, the cry of the watchdog – authorial intent makes no difference, whatsoever, even when affirmed – only the agenda interpretation of the reader.

At least the mode of slander is consistent, whether it’s against me or Rob Bell, etc.

And they accuse emerging/emergent folk of postmodernist ideology gone amok? How can we expect from them any reasonable exegesis of Scripture written thousands of years ago when they can’t even make a reasonable exegesis of the works of living authors, when assisted in interpreting them?

PB and Rick,

Both of you should be ashamed at how you are twisting what I am saying… and return to your bibles and study more…

Show me where Abraham knew Jesus’ Name and was saved.

Show me where we are just saved by Jesus and not also by the Father and the Spirit.

Allah is not a god, but a false god. I one serves him he is lost.

If a Muslim serves the One True God and Jesus but lives as a Muslim he will be saved by God through Jesus as you and I will be.

Both of you are leaving out that the Holy Spirit will lead the true believer to Jesus… yet seem fixated in that one surname…that is the error of the JW’s

Are JW’s saved becuase they have the most accurate “Name”? (Which they don’t but if they did?)

God is our salvation and salvation comes through Jesus, so in that there is no other Name to be saved. We are saved in the Name of God through Jesus who embodied the whole of God in Himself.

Again, both of you now are moving into TD Jakes territory and are denying the Trinity and how God all works toward our salvation.

So if there is heresy afoot it is in your denial and misunderstanding of the Triune God and and His Name.

He saves us for His Names sake. It seems you do not understand the idea what “Name” means in the bible.

Here is a great resource to start to begin to understand what I am stating.

Even Spurgeon understood this…

Christ was not only born, but given. As man he is a child born, as God he is the Son given. He emotes down from ml high; he is given by God to become our Redeemer. But here behold the wonder! “His name is name,” this child’s name, “shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the mighty God.” Is this child, then, to us the mighty God? If so, O brethren, without controversy, great is the mystery of Godliness indeed! ~Spurgeon

Again, it is not the “surname” that saves us but the Person. When Peter stated

“He [Jesus] is “`the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone. ‘ Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”

Peter was not saying the name Jesus saves us, but that the Person named Jesus, the One from Nazareth is the only person that saves us. It is in Jesus the Person salvation comes to all men.

Yet, then if you get into the Greek if you take this as literal as you both are, you are not saved! You call him Jesus… his true surname is Yeshua… to state then it is Jesus and claim as you both are that this “surname” saves us… negates your own salvation because you do not use that name!

So, which is it… convert to Yeshua for that is the only Name by which we are saved? Or stay dead in your sins! LOL! Of course that is silly but that is what you are insisting.

iggy

I love this forum everyone post enough crap in their post,that we don’t have to confront their real point haha

Igs – I have to agree with Rick here – I’m a little baffled by your most recent comment – How can you be both Muslim and Christian – or are you considering Muslim to be a cultural moniker, not a religious one?

But remember the law of love, as you have caused me offense in the manner in which you have written about brothers and sisters in Christ. Whether you meant it as satire or not, I personally received it (as did they) as an ad-hominem attack.

Pastorboy,
99% of your writing fails to live up to this. Including the phrase you began with in your last comment:

You ADM’s bore me.

Speck, plank etc.

Chris L,

Igs – I have to agree with Rick here – I’m a little baffled by your most recent comment – How can you be both Muslim and Christian – or are you considering Muslim to be a cultural moniker, not a religious one?

There are many “Christians” in Muslim nations where is is illegal to convert. So they are “Christian” as they believe in Jesus, yet are “Muslim” and attend mosque. Mostly this is out of survival. Yet, by stating that they cannot do so would mean instant death to them.

That is one example.

If you ever have time to listen to Samir Selmanovic’s testimony, his mother was Christian but practices Islam to stay alive. Which is how Samir became a Christian… he caught his mother praying to Jesus and had to decide to have her killed or look at what she believed in so much as to risk her own life in doing so.

iggy

Did Pastorboy just encourage others to love?

That’s kinda like David Duke reading the “I Have A Dream” speech while striking matches in the front yard…

That said, and I’m just being honest here, but when people say things like this:

But the inherent bent to homosexuality you and others experience, though I agree may be biological, is not a result of how God made you and therefore a “good” thing, but is a result of the Fall and the cursed creation. It is cliché (and on a personal level undoubtedly somewhat crass and hurtful to say) that homosexuality is a defect, but that is what I believe it is – again, a product of the Fall just as any other birth “defect”. I sincerely apologize as I am sure you have heard this before and it is very hurtful.

…you are right to assume that it is trivial and hurtful, but more importantly, it shows a lack of willingness to confront the reality of homosexuality, again, what it is, and what it isn’t. I must admit, though, that I’m suspect of a worldview that simply casts everything, even biology and natural phenomena, as a result of “the Fall,” since it has been proven over and over that, regardless of whether we’ve been here millions or thousands of years, there were people here LONG before the “fall” occurred in the Garden of Eden story. The Sumerians had an entire society 1,000 years before that, for goodness sake.

It’s not meant to be taken quite as literally as some do, since it hits many of the same notes as the multitudes of other creation myths, all of them reflective of a societies trying to explain where they came from, why they’re here, and what that means. It’s oral tradition, and all ancient faiths have it.

I know I’m crashing up against a worldview here, but it seems to make much more sense that “sin” is, in fact, just part of the imperfection of humanity, but it seems quite a stretch to attribute that and any other ill or perceived ill that might befall the world to a singular event that reads, again, like any other creation myth.

Hey Tim,

Take that plank and shove it. No really, i mean it. No satire. Straight up. I am sick and tired of your false accusations. Be a man and quit attacking me over the computer with your ignorant side comments. You don’t know me! I pray that you get born-again and find out what real love is. “OH PB, you don’t know what real love is” Whatever. If I have a log, yours is a redwood.

Iggy,

I am sorry, but isn’t that a sort of compromise like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego refused to make? How about Peter, Paul, and all the other great Christian Martyrs. They would NEVER be seen dead in a mosque worshipping just to save their lives. I pray I would not either. And anyone who would host a universalist love in between Muslims, Christians, and Jews as some sort of buffet line of religions is compromising radically. The muslims and Jews I am friends with are offended at such a thought. I would think that true Born-again Christians would be offended as well. But, since it is supported by EV, SS is some sort of hero of the universalist, all god accepting religions. No self respecting Muslim would come into a Christian church in a ‘christian’ nation (of course, unless its Catholic, and Fr. Junipero Serra, or the Jesuits,he wouldn’t have to convert or die)

Oh, and the Tim thing? All satire.

Rick,

Some of what you said seemed to imply that people could be serving Jesus without knowing it, because the name of god they were serving was really Jesus.

Jesus seems to be saying that some who profess Him as Lord will not be saved in the end… (so much for Lordship Salvation!)

Yet, those that do the will of the Father will be saved… Abraham did not know the name “Jesus”… but he had faith in God to save him at the Resurrection. Salvation is of and from God. I see that the “atonement” works whether we know Jesus name or not. God alone has the power to save.

The Righteous will live by faith. Is that not truth? If so will God deny one who has never heard of the surname Jesus yet does the will of the Father?

I believe though one might not know the surname, they will know the Person of Jesus as God reveals Him to that person. When will that be? I do not know. I see that we die then we are judged… yet how are we judged? By what we do or not do with Jesus. If we may not know that “name” now, but God reveals Jesus at the Judgement and we respond then that is up to God… if it is already written too late, that is up to God.

I will not be presumptuous to state who will and will not be saved, that is up to God. I am called only to tell of the reconciliation that Jesus brought to us by the will of God.

iggy

Iggy,

Get a commentary, get a dictionary, read the Greek, and a Translation other than the Message or the TNIV and read it in context.

Or is this satire?

You must be joking- you are way too smart! Who was Jesus speaking to? (self-righteous pharisees)What was the context of the conversation?
(wide vs. narrow road, good vs. bad fruit) It wasn’t even about Lordship salvation, it was about people who continued walking unrighteously despite their good works. Jesus was condemning those who practice lawlessness-

John, you’re twisting my words

No I am not. You must know Jesus in right relationship to place your faith in the sacrifice he made, because of the will of the Father who sent Him. Muslims must place their full trust in Christ, not in their works. Hindus must be saved by the same grace, or they will face judgment.

I do not wish that on them, but it is wicked men who would do such things. If I must die for Christ, I will. I pray I will not be a coward when the time comes (and it is coming)

None of you emergents will notice, I guess. I mean, you won’t say anything that is the least bit truthful if it is perceived to hurt somebody, like a gay or adulterous person living in sin. I know of Christian brothers in Canada who are in prison for preaching Romans 1:18-32, and not just for the homosexuality portions, but for the other sins listed as well, because it offended someone.

I pray for the persecuted church overseas, I support VOM, I have dear friends who are missionaries in Muslim lands who are ready to die for the cause of Christ. Don’t insult their Holy Spirit Boldness by insinuating that they must go to mosque to fit in~ they won’t and they don’t.

PB,

You must be joking- you are way too smart! Who was Jesus speaking to? (self-righteous pharisees)What was the context of the conversation?
(wide vs. narrow road, good vs. bad fruit) It wasn’t even about Lordship salvation, it was about people who continued walking unrighteously despite their good works. Jesus was condemning those who practice lawlessness-

I think you missed the point of that passage completely!

Yes it is to the religious leaders… who did such evil things like cast out demons in Jesus Name.

Yet you miss that these still used Jesus name as some sort of “magic” thing. These were believers in Jesus who still did it their own way. That is lawlessness as you stated, but this is deeper than you are going. It is like someone who claims to love Jesus but hates his brother and slanders them in the Name of Jesus… it is when someone attacks their sisters and brothers as if they are better than they are, then claims “Grace!” upon themselves.

It is about religious people who seem to think their works mean anything and that they can defend and do God’s will their own way…

You also miss that it is not OUR FRUIT but God’s Fruit… we bear it not produce it… Jim Bublitz teaches we produce it… and it seems you believe that lie of Satan also.

It sort of sounds like many ODM’s to me.

iggy

Take that plank and shove it. No really, i mean it. No satire. Straight up. I am sick and tired of your false accusations. Be a man and quit attacking me over the computer with your ignorant side comments. You don’t know me! I pray that you get born-again and find out what real love is. “OH PB, you don’t know what real love is” Whatever. If I have a log, yours is a redwood.

By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

43″No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. 45The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.

Whatever. If I have a log, yours is a redwood.

Tim’s log is a tourist attraction in California?!?!?!

Tim, can I bring my dog and have pictures taken of us next to your log, like, pointing up at it with big “WOW” expressions on our faces?

lol BTT. Tim, I promise when I visit I won’t bring my golden retreiver. She’ll pee on your redwood. That stings worse than Visine. Not that I know…I’ve heard.

I pray I will not be a coward when the time comes (and it is coming)

That’s telling.

It’s the fringe fundamentalist meme that dupes Christians into believing that any day now they’re going to start rounding up the Christians, despite the fact that Christians have an inordinate amount of influence in this country.

Yep, they’re comin’ to get ya.

I received an e-mail from a Joseph Campano who is the head of Grassroots Films in New York City inviting me to view the coming film “The Human Experience”. Somehow he had come across my blog and identified with my post “Insulated From Human Stories”.

Here is the trailer, it looks good.

http://grassrootsfilms.com/

PB – perhaps you should identify the target of your satire (the object being satirized), as you really do seem to be demonstrating a unique ignorance of the term…

For example, I tried to be quite clear what it was I was satirizing in my post a few weeks back (the writing style and ad homenim tactics of Ingrid, specifically) and laid out how it mapped 1:1.

I let it slide before, but 1,652,394 replies ago in this same thread, this very exchange occurred:

# Break The Terror Says:
June 7th, 2008 at 9:42 pm

If I hadn’t seen you on video, I would harbor strong suspicions that you’re, in fact, a writer for The Onion on a long, long, extended assignment…

# pastorboy Says:
June 7th, 2008 at 10:04 pm

BTT LoL!!

But I don’t know satire….

True, he does not. The Onion is a satirical newspaper, yes, but my comment was NOT satire, but a direct dig.

*grin*

If I must die for Christ, I will. I pray I will not be a coward when the time comes (and it is coming)

gotta love it. paranoia.

“I’m a Christian in America! I am a persecuted minority! They are coming to get me!!! This is why every presidential candidate has to have a pissing contest to prove how Christian they are to be taken seriously! This is why every Republican candidate has to pay penance to the so-called pro-family lobby! Because we are persecuted for our faith! They are coming to get us! I am a persecuted Christian in America! Just because mean judges sometimes remind me that the free exercise of my religion doesn’t include imposing it on others! Run away! They’re coming! To get us! Now! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!”

Hey Tim,

Take that plank and shove it. No really, i mean it. No satire. Straight up. I am sick and tired of your false accusations. Be a man and quit attacking me over the computer with your ignorant side comments. You don’t know me! I pray that you get born-again and find out what real love is. “OH PB, you don’t know what real love is” Whatever. If I have a log, yours is a redwood.

Temper, temper. You really look like Jesus in that comment John. Well Done.

John,
In seriousness, I’m ashamed to think that people will think you and I serve the same God. Your vitriol is disgusting. Maybe you feel it’s OK to become angry and write stupid stuff like “shove it” because you just can’t get through to these “emergents” or whatever label you want to slap on us but that juvenile display is pathetic.
I’m curious, would you say that from your pulpit? What would your district supervisor say if he read what you wrote? Do you really think God is happy with what you wrote?

Here is another trailer to it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC06ryq7zpE&feature=related

Joe,

I would say the same, but that would not be speech seasoned with salt. But since you cannot obviously understand what was written at the bottom…”This is satire” allow me to give you the definition:

Satire is strictly a literary genre, but it is also found in the graphic and performing arts. In satire, human or individual vices, follies, abuses, or shortcomings are held up to censure by means of ridicule, derision, burlesque, irony, or other methods, ideally with the intent to bring about improvement.[1] Although satire is usually meant to be funny, the purpose of satire is not primarily humor in itself so much as an attack on something of which the author strongly disapproves, using the weapon of wit.

Apparently, my satire came off as angry. I was just mimiking back to Tim (and others) what his posts about me felt like, in hopes of bringing about improvement.

I am sorry, genuinely, if this offended you, or if you didn’t get it. If my satire fell short of its intended mark, I willingly and humbly apologize.

Mandy,

Quit judging me. Or is this Tim using Mandy’s SN?

Satire:Satire is strictly a literary genre, but it is also found in the graphic and performing arts. In satire, human or individual vices, follies, abuses, or shortcomings are held up to censure by means of ridicule, derision, burlesque, irony, or other methods, ideally with the intent to bring about improvement.[1] Although satire is usually meant to be funny, the purpose of satire is not primarily humor in itself so much as an attack on something of which the author strongly disapproves, using the weapon of wit.

Also thank you for demonstrating, yet again, why the presence or absence of words that the world has deemed naughty has absolutely nothing in common with the commands of scripture to avoid unwholesome talk.

re: 355

Yep. Thats it. Justify cussing. That helps. Not all unwholesome talk is cussing, yes. But all cussing is unwholesome talk.

BTW, love isn’t acceptance of bad behavior. Love also corrects and warns, sometimes using satire.

Which is exactly why this site exists.*

*-and why we try to understand the literary forms we use, so that they are used correctly, rather than just tossing them about and looking like an ass in the process…

PB,

Hey Tim,

Take that plank and shove it. No really, i mean it. No satire. Straight up. I am sick and tired of your false accusations. Be a man and quit attacking me over the computer with your ignorant side comments. You don’t know me! I pray that you get born-again and find out what real love is. “OH PB, you don’t know what real love is” Whatever. If I have a log, yours is a redwood.

You accuse others of “cussing” and justifying it… then you do this? This is just as bad as cussing in my house if not worse.

You are very sad John.

I have decided to have nothing to do with you from now on. You are a divisive and mean spirited person who hates their brother and sister in the Name of Jesus. That is sick and blasphemous. I really do not like to hang with people who knowing sin and justify it.

My prayers are with you.

iggy

I do believe thread deterioration has entered into an official art form.

Is this something we can find at the Guggenheim?

I am very sad that you have to go to non-Christians to get your love, Tim.

I think the missing key is that Tim is mature enough that he understands, from experience, that the religious label next to one’s name doesn’t necessarily correlate with their expression of grace or love. One has to be a grown-up to get these things, granted…

If my satire fell short of its intended mark, I willingly and humbly apologize.

“My satire”…Who’s using loose language now?

“Do you want to ride on my yellow school bus?”

“Your ‘yellow school bus’ is an ice cream van with blacked out windows.”

“OH, so we’re judging now.”

That helps. Not all unwholesome talk is cussing, yes. But all cussing is unwholesome talk.

What if somebody is from New Jersey?

I would rather if he would just do what he does on other boards and simply cuss me out and make sexual references about my mother

You are an embarrassment to the cross you claim you proclaim on the streets. Shame on you. Your actions on this thread are not Christ like. They are not seasoned with salt. They are childish, and immature. To bring this up after it has been rehashed numerous times and forgiveness has been secured is despicable. Your actions on this thread are not those of a Christ follower or Christian or what ever label you want. How can you claim to follow the way of Jesus and act this way? Perhaps you should find some alone time today where you can compare your actions to Scripture.

Okay Joe,

I will do that this morning in my Bible time.

PB,

I am glad, because I was looking for a way to go 1 Corinthians 5 with you and with Tim. I shouldn’t be dining with you, must less blogging with you.

You just slandered me… prove I am sleeping with my mother… sicko…

You just laid some heavy accusations against me… without any reason.

repent you evil doer. Slanderers will not enter the Kingdom of God.

You fruit shows who you serve and you lie against me… so you serve the father of lies.

Repent John Chisham… repent.

I earnestly seek you to return to Jesus and make Him your first love.

iggy

John Chisham,

Give your proof that I am guilty of any of these things… and if you have none apologize and repent…

But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

I refused to sit and meet with you as you are a slanderer… I and others have shown you your wrong and you continue in your sin with zeal. Now you continue to accuse me and others of even more things without any proof or care to the truth. I see that in that the truth is not in you and you may not even know Jesus as your Savior. For that is what the Scripture teaches of people who act as you have in the threads here on this site.

iggy

Funny Chris.

I do believe thread deterioration has entered into an official art form.

This thread has now been officially identified as a Rembrandt!

Hey,

I know this is unsolicited advice, but I’d shut the thread down, let everyone think, pray, and breathe for a bit, and then let final responses from interested parties be posted.

As of right now, there are a lot of “spiritual” words flying around, and very little love. Somehow things got pretty personal.

And I say that about everyone involved.

I agree with MG

Especially after Iggy started twisting my words.

I’ll see yall laterz.