Comments on: The Problem with Church: Lack of Toothpaste

By: Sandman

Sandman — Sat, 14 Jun 2008 17:41:26 +0000

I started two paragraphs with “Having said that.” I really didn’t mean to do that.

I’m a people watcher in general, so I’ll toss some pet peeves of mine out there.

The half-tuck (reminds me of a class fifth grade boys who all forget to zip their pants): It’s like a mullet – business in the front, party in the back.

The whale tale (too often, those who can, don’t; those who do, shouldn’t)

Inappropriate busting of the sag (it’s a prison thang, folks)

Women who make the wrong choice of wearing those snug low-rise jeans that are supposed to make the butt look not so big (usually with a belly shirt), but instead creates a muffin top effect on the sides and front, and a “coin slot” in the back.

Plum smugglers

Those peasant tops that make any woman wearing them look pregnant.

Socks and sandals: if it’s warm/cold enough to wear the one, you shouldn’t wear the other.

By: iggy

iggy — Sat, 14 Jun 2008 04:33:47 +0000

Ingrid,

though we may not agree on some things… really you would be floored to find out what we do agree on, I appreciate you tone and conversation hear. It is good to see one actually in dialog.

disagreement is not a sin, but when we cross the line where it seems that our “right” is more right than others, then I think we all need to pull back and realize “no one is right” (Rom 3:10) except Jesus alone.

That is why we all should error on the side of Grace. It is better to show love through grace and mercy and be wrong than to fail and be show wrong. If we do truly trust Jesus and the indwelling Holy Spirit, then the battle is already won as Jesus is in control as the Father promised.

To give direction to a weaker sister of brother is a good and godly thing, but to tear them done with name calling is far from edifying. (Rom 14:19)

My prayer has always been for reconciliation and the call to Unity in the Spirit of Christ to lay aside trivial differences so that we can focus on the will and work the Father has prepared for us in Christ Jesus… this is my prayer for you and for Ken Silva.

Peace,
iggy

By: Sandman

Sandman — Sat, 14 Jun 2008 04:14:08 +0000

33: Wow… I realize I’m late to the party, but Ingrid, I didn’t know you had all that going on with the porn bombs and the death threats. I’m sorry that you have to deal with that; most of it can be summarily dismissed, but then you also have to constantly be on the lookout for that one wacko who lacks a sense of … proportion. Given that, along with the challenges each day brings on its own, I can understand why your guard would be up, you have to develop a thick skin, and you may have a heightened sensitivity toward those who disagree with you as well as those who would mean you harm.

Having said that, I would caution, as one who’s been there, that you can harden yourself to the point where you can weather the threats, but can no longer distinguish a “friendly” who may disagree with you and is critical from those who genuinely mean you harm, and end up treating them both the same as your worst enemy.

Having said that, I dress for work in a particular manner because I’m being paid to do a job and I agreed to adhere to a code of conduct in the course of doing my job, which includes a dress code. I don’t think the first century cultural implications of guady dress, makeup, braided hair and jewelry in church is the same in today’s Western culture, but the eternal principle expressed today is something like don’t dress like a prostitute (I think the same principle applies to men dressing provocatively as well).

Another thing that continues to stick out for me is that the first century church didn’t have pulpits, pews, knaves, transepts, etc. Those things came later, I believe, with a group of people who elevated the clergy as above, removed from, and unaccountable to, the laity.

Lastly, for those of us who believe in the shed blood of Christ (i.e., finished work on the cross, death, burial and resurrection) for salvation, we’re not being invited by God to come to church. We’re being invited/urged/commanded to be the church. Not just on Sundays or whenever we meet, but all those other “not-so-best” times of the day and week when we’re not looking, dressing, smelling or behaving the way we would (no matter the standard of dress) in a church building. That is the thing I try to remember the other days of the week when the building is locked down to keep out the unwanted…

Just another perspective to consider.

By: Nathan

Nathan — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 18:49:22 +0000

very good thoughts Ingrid! I do agree that clothes make statements, and even hold people in certain unhealthy social strata. I just think that we need to be careful about placing such an importance on clothing in church. I would rather have someone in rags and fully devoted than have a well dressed man who is superficial and disconnected from God.

By: Ingrid

Ingrid — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 18:39:39 +0000

Nathan,
I agree that things are certainly changing and they always do on the clothes front over time, but I guess my question is, how low do we want to go? Is there any standard at all that should be observed? Is beach stuff OK when other options are fully available? That’s what I’m wrestling with. How casual do we want to get? Not just church but work as well? I read one columnist who said we can do pretty much what we want now, but that if we veer too far into any extreme we are saying a lot about ourselves and our values and not necessarily positively. I posted a piece this morning on Slice about some Christians who have banded together to put a college prep school together in our central city and they now have 500 students enrolled. The boys wear blazers, ties, white shirts and dress pants. The chemistry teacher told me that it has a huge impact on performance and identity for these kids. Clothes do make a statement and the gang clothes aren’t going to help these kids to break the cycle of poverty and violence. So I think clothes do say things about our priorities. To these young men, those neck ties represent a different world that offers them hope for a life of accomplishment and responsibility. They don’t represent bondage but rather an escape from bondage. Just a few thoughts.

By: nc

nc — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 17:14:52 +0000

this is why I think that in some circumstances “clericals” can be helpful.

Like it or not, “religious leaders” in our culture have a role and a “uniform” of sorts is helpful.

I hate the worship of suits because as a pastor I am not a middle manager, a lawyer, or a door to door salesman.

This is why i’ve heard it said: When I see a Buddhist priest, I see a spiritual man. When I see a Christian pastor all I see is a manager.

Ouch.

Of course, it’s about the heart, but I think what we wear can connote something about our roles/jobs.

By: Rick Frueh

Rick Frueh — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 15:00:24 +0000

The necktie was popularized by France’s King Louis XIV who was a war monger and many considered almost a god. He saw it on heathen soldiers and liked the way they looked. In essence, they are cultrally heathen and represent humanism in clothing.

When you add different colors and styles you have arrived at a complete cultural compromise as well as accenting the human form with heathenistic traditions. In short, worldly!

By: Chris L

Chris L — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 14:47:48 +0000

Just to note (from a business perspective): In the corporate circles I frequently walk in, business casual is the norm (with jeans often on Fridays). When you see someone ‘dress up’ (i.e. tie, suit, etc. if it is not their normal attire), it typically means one of two things:

1) They have a job interview in another department

2) They’re trying to pull a ’snow-job’ (i.e. style over substance, authenticity)

By: Rick Frueh

Rick Frueh — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 14:40:32 +0000

Nathan – I think the teachings of Jesus about the outside/inside of the cup puts that entire subject to rest. It is no longer a generational thing, it is a self righteous thing. It doesn’t just end with clothing, either. It goes into music and litergy and even PULPIT STYLE.

Nope – its a pride thing period.

By: nathan

nathan — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 14:34:38 +0000

Ingrid,

really good thoughts. Not to be disrespectful, but I also think it is a generational thing as well. I remember the first time I went to church in jeans and a t-shirt. My mom (who was raised in the deep south), nearly cried. For her, dressing up was a sign of respect. For my generation, dressing up really doesn’t mean that as much. We do for weddings and such, more so because they are formal events vs. showing respect.

A freind of mine and I were talking about this yesterday. For your generation, taking off your hat was a sign of respect and honor. For my generation, we don’t see that as such any more. I remember being told to take off my hat for prayer, never understanding why. I though “Can God not hear my prayers through the bill of my hat?” It was because that was not how we show respect.

Just some thoughts.