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	<title>Comments on: Atonement</title>
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	<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2008/06/07/atonement/</link>
	<description>Engaging the depths of God and life in the Kingdom</description>
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		<title>By: Chris L</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2008/06/07/atonement/comment-page-1/#comment-63741</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris L</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 14:58:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://christianresearchnetwork.info/?p=1305#comment-63741</guid>
		<description>Thank you, Doug!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, Doug!</p>
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		<title>By: Doug Gibson</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2008/06/07/atonement/comment-page-1/#comment-63730</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug Gibson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 06:45:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://christianresearchnetwork.info/?p=1305#comment-63730</guid>
		<description>The writer wrote, &#039;It wasn’t a substitute for punishment, but rather a substitute for the necessity of punishment.&#039;  I would like to modify this in a view I think better defines it:  In the governmental view Jesus wasn&#039;t punished by God instead of sinners (satisfaction/payment of debt theory) rather his death is a substitute for our punishment.  Atonement in its general sense is a SUBSTITUTE for punishment.  Wikipedia is more accurate than theopedia in my opinion on this distinction.  blessings</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The writer wrote, &#8216;It wasn’t a substitute for punishment, but rather a substitute for the necessity of punishment.&#8217;  I would like to modify this in a view I think better defines it:  In the governmental view Jesus wasn&#8217;t punished by God instead of sinners (satisfaction/payment of debt theory) rather his death is a substitute for our punishment.  Atonement in its general sense is a SUBSTITUTE for punishment.  Wikipedia is more accurate than theopedia in my opinion on this distinction.  blessings</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Muller</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2008/06/07/atonement/comment-page-1/#comment-61979</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Muller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 04:46:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://christianresearchnetwork.info/?p=1305#comment-61979</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;There has been a great deal of discussion lately on the subject of “atonement”, sin, and the nature of Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Thanks for that article, Phil, Chris and Chris.  It was very helpful to see the view over the ages, and to see that should one view be &quot;correct&quot; there would be a thousand years of peope going to &quot;hell&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>There has been a great deal of discussion lately on the subject of “atonement”, sin, and the nature of Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection.</p></blockquote>
<p>Thanks for that article, Phil, Chris and Chris.  It was very helpful to see the view over the ages, and to see that should one view be &#8220;correct&#8221; there would be a thousand years of peope going to &#8220;hell&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil Miller</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2008/06/07/atonement/comment-page-1/#comment-61818</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 15:02:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://christianresearchnetwork.info/?p=1305#comment-61818</guid>
		<description>I guess the &quot;issue&quot; I have with the penal substitution view, at least the way in which it is presented most often, is that it explains why Jesus died, but it doesn&#039;t say anything about why He rose.  Sure He took the penalty for our sins, but if that&#039;s all He did, there was no reason He had to be risen.  Ironically, it ends up supporting liberal theology like that of John Dominic Crossan and Marcus Borg, depsite its association with more conservative Christianity.

That&#039;s why, in my opinion, the Christus Victor view (and even Ransom theory) seems to be a more compelling narrative.  Jesus died in humanity&#039;s place, and in doing so conquered death and the grave.  It seems to me that a view that focuses more on the death than the resurrection is a bit lacking.  Note, I&#039;m not saying it&#039;s wrong, but more like incomplete.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess the &#8220;issue&#8221; I have with the penal substitution view, at least the way in which it is presented most often, is that it explains why Jesus died, but it doesn&#8217;t say anything about why He rose.  Sure He took the penalty for our sins, but if that&#8217;s all He did, there was no reason He had to be risen.  Ironically, it ends up supporting liberal theology like that of John Dominic Crossan and Marcus Borg, depsite its association with more conservative Christianity.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s why, in my opinion, the Christus Victor view (and even Ransom theory) seems to be a more compelling narrative.  Jesus died in humanity&#8217;s place, and in doing so conquered death and the grave.  It seems to me that a view that focuses more on the death than the resurrection is a bit lacking.  Note, I&#8217;m not saying it&#8217;s wrong, but more like incomplete.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris L</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2008/06/07/atonement/comment-page-1/#comment-61812</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris L</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 14:42:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://christianresearchnetwork.info/?p=1305#comment-61812</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I am not an expert about all the parsings, but even if the penal essence is removed the substitionary essence remains - right?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
The substitutionary essence does remain in the others, though it is more of a corporate substitution than an individualized one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I am not an expert about all the parsings, but even if the penal essence is removed the substitionary essence remains &#8211; right?</p></blockquote>
<p>The substitutionary essence does remain in the others, though it is more of a corporate substitution than an individualized one.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick Frueh</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2008/06/07/atonement/comment-page-1/#comment-61808</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick Frueh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 14:32:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://christianresearchnetwork.info/?p=1305#comment-61808</guid>
		<description>Chris L. was very gracious about not demeaning the penal substitionary view. I am not an expert about all the parsings, but even if the penal essence is removed the substitionary essence remains - right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris L. was very gracious about not demeaning the penal substitionary view. I am not an expert about all the parsings, but even if the penal essence is removed the substitionary essence remains &#8211; right?</p>
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		<title>By: Phil Miller</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2008/06/07/atonement/comment-page-1/#comment-61798</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 14:06:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://christianresearchnetwork.info/?p=1305#comment-61798</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;So, if the “Biblical view” wasn’t mentioned, what is it?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Let me take a wild guess...

It&#039;s probably whichever one that he thinks is best.  So convenient how that works out, isn&#039;t it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>So, if the “Biblical view” wasn’t mentioned, what is it?</p></blockquote>
<p>Let me take a wild guess&#8230;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s probably whichever one that he thinks is best.  So convenient how that works out, isn&#8217;t it?</p>
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		<title>By: Chris L</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2008/06/07/atonement/comment-page-1/#comment-61795</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris L</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 14:00:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://christianresearchnetwork.info/?p=1305#comment-61795</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;What about the Biblical view?

Not on the buffet menu here.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Uhmmmm, Chris - all 6 are &#039;Biblical&#039; views.  The Bible doesn&#039;t proscribe one mechanism of atonement.

The article was already too long, or I would have also brought in the concept of Jesus&#039; death &lt;a href=&quot;http://christianresearchnetwork.info/2008/03/19/holy-week-iv-the-passover-sacrifice/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;fulfilling the covenant&lt;/a&gt; between God and Abraham, which doesn&#039;t describe an atonement method, but does shed light on at least one promise fulfilled by it.

We also did not get into all of the arguments for and against each view.  For instance, since God does not sin, suggesting that penal substitution is the only viable view sits in contrast to multiple passages, the simplest being:

&lt;blockquote&gt;It is not good to punish an innocent man - Pr 17:26&lt;/blockquote&gt;

So, if the &quot;Biblical view&quot; wasn&#039;t mentioned, what is it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>What about the Biblical view?</p>
<p>Not on the buffet menu here.</p></blockquote>
<p>Uhmmmm, Chris &#8211; all 6 are &#8216;Biblical&#8217; views.  The Bible doesn&#8217;t proscribe one mechanism of atonement.</p>
<p>The article was already too long, or I would have also brought in the concept of Jesus&#8217; death <a href="http://christianresearchnetwork.info/2008/03/19/holy-week-iv-the-passover-sacrifice/" rel="nofollow">fulfilling the covenant</a> between God and Abraham, which doesn&#8217;t describe an atonement method, but does shed light on at least one promise fulfilled by it.</p>
<p>We also did not get into all of the arguments for and against each view.  For instance, since God does not sin, suggesting that penal substitution is the only viable view sits in contrast to multiple passages, the simplest being:</p>
<blockquote><p>It is not good to punish an innocent man &#8211; Pr 17:26</p></blockquote>
<p>So, if the &#8220;Biblical view&#8221; wasn&#8217;t mentioned, what is it?</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Reed, Owosso MI</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2008/06/07/atonement/comment-page-1/#comment-61794</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Reed, Owosso MI</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 13:57:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://christianresearchnetwork.info/?p=1305#comment-61794</guid>
		<description>Chris P,
You must have gotten one of those Commie Bibles.  I suggest that you get a Bible that isn&#039;t missing vast swaths of scripture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris P,<br />
You must have gotten one of those Commie Bibles.  I suggest that you get a Bible that isn&#8217;t missing vast swaths of scripture.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris P.</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2008/06/07/atonement/comment-page-1/#comment-61792</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris P.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 13:50:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://christianresearchnetwork.info/?p=1305#comment-61792</guid>
		<description>What about the Biblical view?

Not on the buffet menu here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What about the Biblical view?</p>
<p>Not on the buffet menu here.</p>
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