There have been a number of comments lately that show the uncompassionate, unloving, unkind, harsh, hard hearts of those writing them. I suppose we all have our moments, but as new creations in Christ, we are to love our neighbors as ourselves. Not only that, but we are to love each other as Christ loved us. Those recent comments, my current situation, and Rambo have all come together to open up my heart.
Being in the middle of a high impact natural disaster (I live in a small town on the Mississippi river that will flood most of the buildins on Main St. by next week), I’ve been thinking a lot about questions like the above. After the second day of sandbagging, I finally had to quit early and so I got some time to finally watch Rambo (the new one) which we’ve had from Netflix for days. I was surprised at how intensely the film dealt with similar issues and questions I have been thinking on.
I was surprised to very quickly learn that this Rambo wasn’t really about John Rambo, is about the suffering of the people of Burma. Stalone often likes to say something meaningful in his films, and for this one he found out about the awful situation (pre-natural disaster, so you can imagine how much worse it is now) of the Burmese under the rule of the military. Of course, there’s lots of gory action, but I’d still recommend any adult to see it, partly because the gore is not out of place. In fact, you’ll find some tame pictures on the sites listed below that provide the evidence for the brutatlity visualized for you in Rambo.
The most convicting part of the film was the dedication to action of the Christians in the film. One thing that gets me, both locally for our flood, and globally for situations like Burma, is how churches and christians can sit around and do nothing yet people who do not know the grace of God through Jesus Christ do everything from helping to fill sandbags to save a few homes to struggling for the lives of people half a world away.
If we don’t do what we are taught in scripture, does it have any value for our lives? What does it take for us to love our neighbors?
Father, forgive us for walking on the other side of the street pretending not to see the need of our neighbor. Create in us a heart of compassion. Use us in your work to transform us into little Christs.
Watch the movie if you haven’t seen it yet. In the mean time, check out these websites:
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
181 Comments(+Add)
Wow, thanks for introducing me to those organizations.
I would also add Avaaz to the list, not only for the current situation in Myanmar, but many other problems around the world. They have shown themselves to be an incredibly effective force in multiplying the power of voices in every nation in the world to alleviate suffering, fight injustice, etc.
http://www.avaaz.org
But it is so much more self pleasing to sit in my air-conditioned study of my suburban mansion in my comfy chair and use my high speed connection to attack those activists who preach a social gospel. I can show you scripture upon scripture that will validate my attack on all who I think are not being true to the gospel.
“In an age of effeminized males who are more concerned about hurting people’s feelings and posturing as nice guys than fulfilling the biblical calling of contending for truth(as I see it),…” the world(me and my posse) needs people to launch these attacks so that we can feel save in our (self)righteous fortresses.
Christian P, your post makes me very uncomfortable here in my comfortable chair! I’m sure there is a scripture verse that will deal with you. Let me just use the search engine of my Bible program … … … … … …
Uhm… I’ll get back to you Christian P! Let me just find the verse (and remove it from its context) then I’ll hit you over the head with it.
“Use us in your work to transform us into little Christs.”
Amen, thank you, Christian.
Talking of films one to look out for
Taxi to the darkside
(He who fights with monsters, might take care lest he thereby become a monster)
“There have been a number of comments lately that show the uncompassionate, unloving, unkind, harsh, hard hearts of those writing them. ”
Yeah, I feel your pain dude. Like for example the jusdmental comment #2 above by E.R. which also takes sarcastic shot at Ingrid for god measure to prove your point.
Do you guys even read what you write?
Christian, your post moved me, and especially that one statement. I have written about it and linked here. Since when I post a link it gets spammed, just click on my name.
Thanks again for a very important principle to us all.
Last time I checked, Eugene (like you) is a commenter here, not one of the writers…
Ken,
If you were as respectful and salient as Eugene this site wouldn’t exist.
Speck, plank, etc.
Ken,
When I went and read E.R.’s comments… I did not even see or think of Ingrid… I did agree and thought how silly it is for someone as blessed as we are in America to feel “persecuted”.
Funny how you can read something and feel as it it is about you or one of your cronies… yet miss the main point of what was written.
Selfish ambition does blind people to see things in a paranoid way… and that is what I get from comment #5.
Still praying blessings on you, regardless as to what you see me as.
iggy
“effeminized males”
Or the reverse. Do you mean fathers, and husbands, and preachers, and other followers of Christ who may or may not be as harsh or discerning compared to whatever subjective and narcissistic measuring stick you are using?
The creative mixing of subject invectives and the scorched earth labeling of men comes conspicuously from a source of questionable gender authority.
Stallone likes to say something meaningful in his films? Like: YO ADRIAN!
This post and the ensuing comments would be funny if they were not so pathetic.
We should just tell the flood victims and the hurricane victims, (even thoe still suffering from Katrina) as well as the victims of the wars, acts of terrorism, the tsunami, all who have recently lost fortunes in the market, etc. etc. etc, that the God of preterism has given power to mankind to save the earth.You know all those failsafe and doomsday devices that we have so that we do not have to believe that that biblical prophecies mean anything past the first century.
I am still looking for the passages where Jesus spoke of political reform and social welfare agencies.
How come none of you are jumping on the next plane to Burma?
This post reeks of pious pablum.
As for the worn out speck and log rhetoric, (talk about lifting out of context)……. God help us.
BTW iggy, no one is stupid enough to believe that the reference by Eugene was not directed at Ingrid.
I wish I could make myself as holy as you have made yourselves.
Actually, what’s funny is Eugene is quoting Ingrid where she took a silly pot shot at me on Extreme Theology b/c I expressed my belief that Paula (purpose drivel) needs to seek help. Ken defended and applauded over there. Oh Ken, that’s a double standard.
A question:
Have Paula and Mrs. Schlueter ever been photgraphed or seen together?
Joe,
thanks for letting me know that I am out of the loop… that actually feels good to not know the insides story of all the psychodrama that is the ODM world.
= )
iggy
Christian P,
My prayers are with you as you face the floods… Hope there is not as much damage in your town as there was in others.
iggy
Tim,
*yawn* It must be hard for you personally to see through your forest, eh.
Chris L.,
I am aware he is a commenter; the point is collectively you gentlemen all agree that it’s ok to talk as if you should be loving etc., etc.; but your comments re. “ODMs” do not have to follow suit, which has become quite evident in subsequent comments.
Joe,
The Lord bless you.
iggy,
Take Joe’s salient advice: “seek help.”
“There have been a number of comments lately that show the uncompassionate, unloving, unkind, harsh, hard hearts of those writing them”
Physician, heal thyself.
Ken (and others),
I would like to explain to you why I made that sarcastic comment. See, I live in South Africa where I am come face to face with extreme poverty and need on a daily basis. Together with our church we try to address the need, but feel overwhelmed by the amount and hugeness of it. At the moment we are also faced with the ugly crimes caused by xenophobia. We need Christ’s light in this darkness and the church should shine that light.
I have been reading blogs for just over a month now and what saddens me more than I can express in words is the following. When a post is made about the need of the world around us and how Christians help or should help the amount of comments that post get rarely rises above 10. Soon that thread is forgotten. Mention RW tin a post though and you are sure to get more than a 100 comments. Even months later you’ll still see discussion on such a thread (check the dates for yourself). If you cannot figure it out for yourself let me state it clear: Something is terribly wrong here!
I am sorry that you found my comment hurtful, Ken. It is not my intention to sow hurt. Please excuse me if I’m not sympathetic towards your critique on RW, Emergent Churches and the like because it is from people like them that we receive the most support at the moment. They do not just talk about Christ, they are living Him.
I also feel sorry for people like Paula who got hurt through bad decisions in their churches and where PD was involved, I went through much of that myself. But really, we should get over our hurt and pain and get off our criticising backsides and do something. People are living in poverty, fear, sickness and are dying daily without Christ. So please, spend less time defending your position, get down from your tower and come help where help is needed. We need experienced Christians who can communicate the gospel clearly to these people in need.
I got carried away a bit here, so I’ll get off my soapbox.
Christian P, I pray that the God will protect your town from serious damage and that Christ’s light will shine brightly through his church during this time in your town.
Faith without works is dead…
But so are works without faith…And that is the problem we see so often in the states. People are self righteous, and that is the feel I get on the tone of this OP.
I truly hope that no more flooding happens, and people’s lives are not destroyed by it. My problem is the self-righteous shot as I was packing sandbags I was thinking about Rambo and the rotten things ODMs do.
Physician, heal thyself.
Pray for South Africa, Pray for Burma, more important, send aid. Support Missions. Waste less time cutting down people you hate (see ODM’s)
pastorboy,
If you held ODMs and yourself to the same standard you try to hold us you’d be writing for this site.
Eugene,
“I am sorry that you found my comment hurtful, Ken. It is not my intention to sow hurt. ” I didn’t find it personally hurtful, I found it judgmental is all.
“Please excuse me if I’m not sympathetic towards your critique on RW, Emergent Churches and the like because it is from people like them that we receive the most support at the moment.”
You and me have no problem personally Eugene, k. Offering humanitarian aid is a noble endeavor regardless of one’s religious affiliation and no one’s arguing against that.
However, the Christian is to offer said aid and bring glory to Jesus Christ as we do. This means we must do things His way whether they appear to make sense to us or not.
So with the majority of both sides of my family trapped within the apostate Roman Catholic Church and still on the broad path to Hell please forgive me if I’m not sympathetic to your approval of RW, Emergent Churches and the like .
“They do not just talk about Christ, they are living Him.” The fact is that their ecumenical actions right now show they are not talking about the actual Jesus Christ. They are living a lie about Him.
Rick said:
“A question:
Have Paula and Mrs. Schlueter ever been photgraphed or seen together?”
I do not know, Rick, what it is I have ever done to you to deserve a direct hit from you on every CRN.info post, but you’ve done it again. I have never done anything mean to you that I am aware of in my life. I do not know you and would not recognize you if you came to my church tomorrow. Why do you hate me so much that every time you get a chance, there’s a slur on me? I enjoyed this post very much as I am also interested in the hurting people in our world. Over 300 children have found homes from around the world through the special needs adoption work I involved with. I testified before a Senate committee last year on behalf of tax credits for special needs adoptions in our state. I say that not to boast, it’s a drop in the bucket of need, but only to demonstrate that I too take seriously our call to make a difference as Christians. One little boy had half his face mangled in Bulgaria when he was born. A rural doctor mishandled forceps and scarred this child for life. Through a radio spot I recorded, a United Airlines pilot and his wife adopted him and brought him to the US where he has had reconstructive surgery and a new life with a Christian family. I could tell a lot of stories here but I will not because it isn’t about me, it’s about God in his mercy doing great things. Our son was rejected by everyone, had had bone 35 fractures and at 13 was on his way to a horrible teen orphanage where he would have been killed or raped. Do you have any idea what a joy it was to take this boy and bring him into a Christian home and love him? He’s 22 now and studying to be pharmacist. We can’t change everything wrong in this world, but when we go out in Christ’s name, with love for the Gospel and those who are hurting, amazing things can be accomplished.
Rick, I am willing to talk any time by email or phone regarding the above issue. I want you to know that.
Hmmm,
What has Rob Bell, Rick Warren, Erwin McManus, Mark Driscoll, Brian McClaren, Doug Pagitt, or any of your other targets ever done to you Mrs. Schlueter? It’s your prerogative to blast away at all of these men and more, surely it cannot bother you all that much to have one man who is nearly contained to a wheel chair due to a terrible health issue take serious issue with you. I mean, you’re entire “ministry” is built upon blowing up people who don’t even know who are you.
Mrs. Schlueter – my comment was meant as humor suggesting a similarity in tone between you and someone named Paula. I am sorry if it offended you.
Your humanitarian efforts are commendable, but you should also know that men like Rick Warren do similar works of compassion and yet his humanitarian gestures are not only not recognized by some discerment blogs, they are ridiculed and demeaned.
I know you are involved in things like that and that is a great thing. The school you posted and interviewed about was a positive gospel ministry. The obvious difference that you and I have aside, you would receive much more credibility if you addressed your issues with more objectivity and less hyperbole. I think the most offense part of SOL is your shameless posting of the personal sins of the lost and other believers, and your indiscriminate use of secular sources for many of those attacks.
As has been pointed out in volumes, Rick Warren’s good deeds do not excuse any of his compromises. So unchristian behavior cannot be excused by any of our good deeds.
I do not hate you as you suggest, and you say you enjoyed this post. Perhaps you missed this opening sentence,
“There have been a number of comments lately that show the uncompassionate, unloving, unkind, harsh, hard hearts of those writing them.”
Many of those comments come from people who support you and whom you support. You cannot rescue the perishing on one hand, and verbally anhhiliate others on the other, and be blind to the obvious contradiction. And it is not acceptable to revile some like Ravi Zacharius, Franklin Graham, and Bob Jones III and then act as if you are being persecuted by some comments from an obscure blogger on an obscure blog.
I will avoid the humor in the future, but I will still point out some unchristian writing that comes from your pen.
“I do not hate as you suggest” (Rick)
For quite a while, weeks, Rick, I’ve been thinking about a thought that came into my mind one day and wondered if I would ever share it with you. I guess it’s time. The thought was this – that if I saw a tombstone with your name on it, what would be written there is “Hater of Ingrid.”
You can say you don’t hate; you and others can say that such a thought is ridiculous, but I share it with you because I think you need to consider that at least to me, that is the thing that stands out most to me about you, from reading this blog.
Please consider what I’m saying. I think that your animosity towards her is hurting you far worse than her.
pb,
honestly what has christian p. done to you? I can’t think of any writings or comments here that you should take offense to. I think this was a great piece, one that we should all think about instead of looking for ways to attack each other.
Amy – it is quite phenominal that you can judge my heart, but you would never suggest that Mrs. Schlueter hates those who she verbally attacks with no other reason than agreeing the secular press.
Your tombstone suggestion is silly. What would your tombstone say? Probably something a little more generous than what you’ve presented for me.
Tim Reed’s tombstone – “A Goofball Who Loved Jesus”
TOMBSTONE ENSCRIPTIONS
Iggy – “He Tested the Boundaries of God’s Grace”
Mandy – “Endured Great Domestic Trials”
Chris L. - “He was Wrong About the Rapture”
Rick Frueh - “An Enigma Wrapped in a Conundrum”
Rick,
Rick, I’m not trying to judge your heart. I wasn’t sitting around thinking about “Now, what would Rick’s tombstone say?” The picture just came to my mind. It has absolutely nothing to do with what I think of Mrs. Schlueter. (And why must so many things be judged using her as the measuring stick? Isn’t this part of the problem?)
I really felt like it was my responsibility to share the thought with you. You’re welcome to think whatever you want about it, including that it’s silly. But you might want to think about it some more instead of just sloughing it off.
A tombstone? Was that a vision from God, and if not why would you share that? Is it meant to frighten me, especially since I’ve come close to death twice in the last 9 months?
I find fault with the tone of SOL and you give me a tombstone vision. If I had shared a tombstone vision with you or somebody else you would have attacked me. I believe in visions, do you?
I guess I’ve heard it all, tombstone visions used to correct someone. I now ask you to dialogue with others, you have no credibility with me.
I can live with that.
It’s amazing how quickly we can get off topic.
Ingrid, thank you for the compassion you show to those in need and for the kind words on what I wrote.
PB, You read what you wanted to read, that I was attacking ODM’s. Did I have certain individuals and comments in mind when I adapted this to CRN.info? Yes. But I wrote the piece for Church Voices which has nothing to do with the work done here. I felt that the piece fit well with what is happening here. What I did say was that I was thinking about similar questions. If you must know there is some leadership in our congregation that I will have to deal with about their complete, and I mean complete, inaction for their neighbors and even church members.
Ken, I don’t want to be rude, I don’t know you, but I’ve had a long hard day, and dealing with people that give me crap about this kind of stuff makes me want to yell at them. This wasn’t about you (as far as I know). Get over yourself. Did you read what I wrote?
Look people, these are all things I am trying to deal with, including my own inaction at times. I was going to send funds to help ministries in Burma, I don’t think I ever got around to it. Shame on me. Like I said, all of this has come together at the same time. God is transforming my heart and life as we speak. If you don’t have something nice or beneficial to say, keep your mouth shut. Like a 70 year old woman said today to a few people just standing around, “Either pick up a shovel or go home.”
For those that are or have, thank you for your prayers and kind words.
Trouble is I see no bounds…
Pastorboy,
If those were the words God gave you to write here… first go and do as God told you to do then back come here after you are healed. We will rejoice with you!
Until then realize you are just as sick as the rest of us and need Jesus just the same as we do…
iggy
Hoping and praying for you and your community, Christian – and hoping that those you were writing to (hint: not ODM’s, though they see themselves in every criticism) begin to feel the compassion they are called to act upon.
I’ve been gone all day, at my father’s 65th birthday party, and I have to say I’m pretty disappointed in a number of the comments here – not surprised, just disappointed. Lots of searching for specks whilst planks are whacking about.
E.R. – my son just got back from South Africa last week, and has been talking about his trip there (singing with a college choir). My prayers go our to you, as well…
SBA,
It’s sad that you are so hateful and completely and continually misrepresent everyone here, and even Christ, in your comments. I guess it doesn’t matter how many times you’re corrected, you just lie and slander on, spewing hatred in your wake…
“The creative mixing of subject invectives and the scorched earth labeling of men comes conspicuously from a source of questionable gender authority.”
No dad, this is your tombstone engraving! That is what you have received here today! LOL
ben,
Sorry dude, I really had no clue, my world must be bigger than the small orbit of the average ODM. I just can’t keep up with their petty issues. I most assuredly do not go around chasing Ingrid and who she posts to and what she says. I do have much more of a life than that! Yet I think now that we have E.R.’s context, you might and should rethink your attack on me and others and even apologize.
iggy
Faith without works is dead…
But so are works without faith…And that is the problem we see so often in the states. People are self righteous, and that is the feel I get on the tone of this OP.
I truly hope that no more flooding happens, and people’s lives are not destroyed by it. My problem is the self-righteous shot as I was packing sandbags I was thinking about Rambo and the rotten things ODMs do.
Physician, heal thyself.
Pray for South Africa, Pray for Burma, more important, send aid. Support Missions. Waste less time cutting down people you hate (see ODM’s) Then the world would be a better place.
Christian P-
Thanks for your words of inspiration. May God’s peace dwell richly where you are.
I have been away for a week and have missed my friends here.
grace and peace,
Chad
Funny, but I don’t see that quote in the OP, nor did I read it there (or in Christian P’s follow-up, above)… Maybe it’s time to be a charitable reader, John. Try something new for a change…
This isn’t about Rambo but it is about justice and mercy.
Have you guys seen the attack on Barnes and Noble being hosted and led by Brannon Howse? Following these articles has made me think a lot about how Christians should respond when offended by nonChristian influences.
Now Howse is encouraging Christians to go looking for questionable material at their local B & N and report back. I am certain looking for trouble and possibly being tempted is not what we should be doing.
Anyway, I’d like to hear the point of view from writers and commentors here about Howse’s crusade.
(You could tell me to go get a blog, and that would be fair, but you guys do it so well.)
Me thinks he doth protest too much.
Chris L
Teach oh wise one how to be a charitable reader! For I do not know the finer points of it! Oh, that I could be a charitable reader, then I could find no ill will in any comments or writings! Oh to have the blinders of rose colored glasses; to be able to read websites and blogs and see only the good…
Oh but I would be disappointed, for if my favorite writers like Tim, and Joe, and Chris, Chris L, and Mandy, and Nathaniel, well, they would have nothing to write! What would happen to Carlos? oh my…
Please, I will become a charitable reader…just PROMISE ME that these, my favorite writers, will NEVER follow suit.
Moral crusaders are legion and are mostly an irritant and counter productive to the gospel. The weapons of our warefare are not carnal, and we must avoid battling moral issues on secular grounds.
It is these type of things that misrepresent the love has for sinners, and in this case gays. If you do not like what B&N does, go somewhere esle but don’t parade your moral outrage which usually results in more blog hits and in Howse’s case more donations.
Attention people - we live in Babylon, deal with it. How? By, as Christian P. suggested, being little Christ’s to a dark world. Please do not act surprised when you have to rub shoulders with that darkness, if Jesus felt like that He never would have come to this dark world in the first place.
But what about my children? Oh, let’s see, perhaps you can TEACH THEM and even use some objectionable things to exhort them to PRAY FOR THESE PEOPLE AND LOVE THEM LIKE JESUS DID!?
Moral outrage is an attention getter, but it surely doesn’t demonstrate the redemption of Jesus Christ to those you castigate freely in the public square. And the leverage of commerce just reveals how spiritually bankrupt the church has become.
“If you don’t stop that we won’t pay you”. How pitiful. We no longer have any light to carry into the darkness, they must dispel the darkness before we can share because we are so offended by the darkness of sinners.
“But we live in a society.” No you don’t, you live in God’s invisible kingdom and you are dead and your life is hid with Christ in God. When will actually practice what we SAY we believe. As I sit here I hope no gay people are involved in activity that will invade my moral paradise.
Take another look at the cross and see how far our Lord was willing to tread into the moral abysss. HE BECAME SIN FOR US. So next time you happen to see two men kissing or doing other things, remember, Christ did not shrink from that, He became that so that those men you turn from might be saved.
Jane – I guess I agree with you.
Christian P,
I want to apologise for voicing my frustration on this thread and sparking a debate that took the discussion away from the core of your post’s message. I share your frustration with my own inaction sometimes towards some of the need I feel drawn to.
Ingrid, I am sorry that I assumed you only judge people and are not involved in charity work as well. Please forgive me. Please do not feel like you are blowing your own horn when you share what you are involved in, in this area, for it is an inspiration and encourages people to do the same. May the grace and love of God that flow through you in this manner multiply and become the absolute earmark of your ministry.
PB,
It is a mighty big and wonderful world my friend… and mine does not revolve around in the small orbit you seem to thrive in.
God created the universe far and vast and way beyond your own naval.
iggy
Happy Father’s day to all you fathers out there!
iggy
“God created the universe far and vast and way beyond your own naval.”
*wiping a tear from my eye*
Carlos, that was so bee-u-tee-ful man.
Christian P.,
So who was talking to you, certainly not me.
“Get over yourself.”
Good advice for you man.
PB,
I see you at least understand sarcasm. Sad, though, that you’re supposedly a pastor…
PB,
Also, I am not a writer for this blog… I am a commentor just as you are.
iggy
But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan’s apprentice.
Tim, (breath, breath, breath), I am not your father! Lol
Got to love a star wars analogy!
“Sad, though, that you’re supposedly a pastor…”
Is this really called for…
I’m trying to appeal to his sense of responsibility to the office he claims…
Being a charitable reader has a number of manifestations – probably a key one being, “if you’re offended by it, re-read it for clarity to see if it could be interpreted in a way in which offense was not met.” I the case of this article, Christian didn’t target any ODM or individual – but was rather general, seeming to apply to all individuals involved. In return, all sorts of snide insinuations were made, with several from you and PB along the lines of “physician heal yourself”, completely uncalled for:
Basically, Christian is dealing with real-life situation where brothers and sisters in Christ are not caring for their flesh-and-blood neighbors, and calling out a larger point from the experience that is relevant to us all…
“There have been a number of comments lately that show the uncompassionate, unloving, unkind, harsh, hard hearts of those writing them.”
Compassionate Rendering? There have been a number of comments on this site by both ADM’san d ODM’s that show the uncompassionate (not a real word), unloving, unkind, harsh, hard hearts of those writing them, including myself in this piece.
Am I doing this right?
CRN.info Physician, heal thyself.
Chris L.
I lay claim to no office, it has been bestowed on me by a committee formed by my denomination to examine and observe my ministry. I have been placed there by the current body I serve.
PB, that is a more appropriate reading.
Including yourself in the piece is always a good thing when the piece calls us to reflect on our lives in Christ.
If that’s not the way you meant what you wrote, then that completely illustrates Chris L.’s point.
Rick wrote a wonderful post, The Doctrine of Compassion, on his blog that had me thinking all day. I decided to read through James in The Message and this just struck me again like a cannon ball:
James 1:26-27
“Anyone who sets himself up as “religious” by talking a good game is self-deceived. This kind of religion is hot air and only hot air. Real religion, the kind that passes muster before God the Father, is this: Reach out to the homeless and loveless in their plight, and guard against corruption from the godless world.”
For those of us who do not understand the Peterson paraphrase, here it is in the KJV:
“26If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man’s religion is vain. 27Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.”
May God help us to be “seen and not heard” as Petra used to sing.
PB,
Are you SBC? If so then there is not much check up and chance of followup as to whether you are still doing well.
I was encouraged by friends to look in to ordination and could not believe how easy the SBC was to be ordained through them. I had some obvious reasons as I am of the Pentecostal background and believe and practice certain “gifts” the SBC seems confused about.
Yet, I was surprised that I was attacked by someone in that denom who thought my ordination… which is from God first then of man, was not valid. My ordination of man was also reviewed for a year from those who gave me a temp ordination, followed me for a years. They mentored me and asked me about my beliefs. Even now if they are contacted that i am not preaching the bible and Jesus, I will have my ordination revoked after another review. I saw that this rarely happens in the SBC if ever. I saw more accountability in my so called fraudulent group than that major denomination. The small group I was starting the church plant with acknowledge me as their pastor for two years.
Currently I an doing pastoral internship at my local church. I am not officially ordained with them, but I have a good laugh comparing ordination cards with my pastor who really likes how much more professional looking mine is… LOL!
Later I was told by a friendly ODM wannabe I was a fraud.
My point in this story… to me after the attack that included this person insinuating I was a pedophile, put a bad taste in my mouth for ordination. Yet, again it is of God first then man and really I do not care what man has to say if they are not part of my local fellowship. Even if you are not SBC, I have found that many are easy to get in and very hard to actually be tossed out. It takes many years and much politics to get someone tossed out which rarely has to do with what that person truly teaches.
iggy
“I’m trying to appeal to his sense of responsibility to the office he claims…”
And I’m trying to appeal to your mocking, yet again, the role in the Body of Christ that John does not “claim,” but rather Jesus Christ Himself called him to.
You would do well to remember this fact.
Actually after all that I remember you are CMA if I recall… which was really active in the emerging church when I first began looking at that denomination.
I mean if you are CMA, then why not go after your denom first before you attack others.
http://www.livinghopealliance.ca/
iggy
No mocking, Ken… just an appeal, which I’m not sure was seriously considered… As for it being ‘fact’, I think you’d best check the dictionary for the difference between ‘fact’ and ‘opinion’, as his actions on these boards and elsewhere suggest the latter…
Believe me, John, we try every day, though some days not as successfully as others.
That said, though, these days you (and Ken) are sounding a whole lot like the guy on the left, with about as much credibility.
As if that is Carte Blanche to act completely contrary to the Christ who called him.
What’s interesting is nowhere are any of the ODM’s mentioned in the OP. In fact, it is obviously written for all of us and yet John and Ken are moaning about how mean we are to them. The only logical explanation is that they have a guilty conscience. It is sad to watch.
And as for John trying to somehow use his position as a pastor as a reason that he’s allowed to be a jerk…well, we’ll let God sort that some day.
It only took a few comments to move from compassion to “I know you are but what am I?”
Rick,
It is amazing
Joe,
No one is whining, and I will say it again
CRN.Info physician, heal thyself.
Iggy,
Million dollar Idea. But I already grabbed it..
http://www.thywordisalamp08.blogspot.com
Everyone is being so cranky today (including me yesterday). I have a suggestion that we all say sorry and get over these problems because in the long run they are all rather minor. When I read the thread,
It sounds like a personal, not global prayer and call accusing no-one of anything. We should be all agreeing instead that this is true.
Comments being deleted now?
John,
We have many problems, which each of us struggles with from day to day, for which we rely on the great physician to heal. We cannot on our own, though we bear each other’s burdens as we are familiar with them.
In this case – to be blunt – Christian’s initial post was missing no grace and it really wasn’t about you until you made it so. In this case, you’ve made it self-evident where the hypocrisy lies, and it doesn’t even require a keyboard, but only a mirror, for you to see it.
I would kindly suggest you stop your current course of constant whining and “I know you are but what am I”, particularly when it is irrelevant to the posts you’ve done it on (such as this one). You’ve reached the point where you truly do have the credibility of the guy on the left, above…
Indeed, Dave, I read it as a general call, and not a specific one. With all of the obvious opportunity in the communities around us, it is one we each need be mindful of…
You either were hearing from God or needed medication. Thanks again for the post, it opened up my heart as well, especially the “Use us in your work to transform us into little Christs” prayer. As you can tell from my post, I saw a new view of deeds of compassion.
“Would you help a sinner if God showed you he would never believe on Christ?”
I just cleared the spam queue awhile ago and didn’t see anything there…
John, I find it interesting you loudly proclaim what the Pharisees and those gathered to execute Jesus were proclaiming. Well done.
“CRN.Info physician, heal thyself.”
Do you make house calls?
“I just cleared the spam queue awhile ago and didn’t see anything there…”
Is ok, but it was already online as comment #70 where John’s comments now appears.
PB,
Yep, more misinformed hate speech from John Chisham…
Better being a new liberal who is changing things back to God’s word than a modernist who insists on making God bow to Scientific ideals and Platonist dualism.
Apparently now a new liberal who holds to the truth that Jesus is God and The Way, The Truth and the Life… which I guess is evil and vile to Pastorboy.
iggy
Oh and by the way, when Jesus stated Physician heal thyself, it was to put the religious leaders in their place to realize they needed Him as their savior. From how you are using it here I just thought I might mention that as the only person that seems to not understand we are all sick and need Jesus is you Pastorboy.
So instead of healing yourself, turn to Jesus and He will heal you and set you free with The Truth which He is.
iggy
Ken,
Would you please follow your own advise and stop attacking me? I am also called by Christ Jesus to pastor at my church. In that I also am a teacher there. These are my gifts as well as others God has given me, yet you attack me on very personal levels then call others to not do so…
Again, this is a sick standard of truth you promote. Full of contradictions and relativistic truth based on your own theological understandings… return to Jesus Ken… Stop your error and continual sin against Christ Holy Body.
iggy
BTW, Ken, Stop attack you Masters other servants as you do not know hwat He has called them to do. In that you keep doing this you continue to offend Christ Jesus Himself.
iggy
Ken – I’ve approved a bunch of your comments today – I didn’t think any were deleted, so I don’t know what happened…
Chris L.,
It’s no problem. No accusations or anything. I just wondered and I appreciate your checking into it.
iggy,
May the Lord bless you.
It all comes down to this again here on this site…
You guys do the same thing that you moan and groan about ODM’s doing. The problem is, the ADM’s are going to face a stricter judgement, because you have set a standard that you don’t meet, and no one can meet.
Its a house of cards, a Vegas casino, the odds are stacked against anyone except the ‘elite’ who think they have it all together.
You guys are so self righteous ‘protecting against persecution from within’ and yet you make no effort to build bridges or improve anything. Instead you have Tim with his sarcastic comments, and Joe with his judgmental comments and merry and zan backing up their men and RA showing up everytime the rock star of evangekicalism is mentioned.
So keep on firing your pot shots at the ODMs while the midwest floods and the Burmese perish. It will do a whole lotta good.
John,
How old are you? Seriously? I mean you gotta be in your fifties, right? You just keep throwing that “you guys are just mean cuz you do what you accuse me of doing” all day long. It’s not gonna stick. You are mean. You have a bad mean temper where you tell other people to “shove it.” You create open letters to Tony Jones asking him to “get saved” cuz he kicked your ass in an interview and made you look silly. So silly, your wife had to write a letter defending you. This thread had nothing to do with until you made it about you. If you are what a Christian should look like, or if you are telling your church to follow you as you follow Christ than God help us all, because you are like a drunk who keeps talking about all the people out there who smoking dope.
If your actions represent a Christian, then we truly have no hope.
And John,
What bridges are you building? I’m curious. I just read your last 25 comments. Which one of them were “building” bridges? I appreciate you and Ken coming over here and commenting, it helps remind me just how valuable this site is. It helps remind me that as ugly as this business is, it is necessary.
Ok,
I’m done, I’m going back to my policy of not engaging John. John, allow me to apologize for expressing what I felt. While I believe those feelings are accurate and honest, they aren’t necessary. I do truly mean, that I want nothing to do with the Christianity you represent.
Joe,
Temper, Temper, Jr.
Just because the Yankees are struggling does not mean you have to get all personal and stuff.
And who moderates the moderators over here, anyway? That vulger language does not pass muster with me, does not make me feel threatened, only amazed. Of course that is what happens, and you and Tony Jones can justify using obscene language because it is the same thing in the original greek.
The hypocrisy on this site is so deep I am drowning in it. My wife defending me? Nah, she was offended at Tony blowing her off. And again, LOL! You, Chris L, and Tim’s wives regularly come on here and attempt to defend their men. My wife wouldn’t be caught dead in here. She recognizes hypocrisy when she sees it.
This site is valuable, because a bunch of pomos can blow off steam at the mean ole modernists. Just admit that you are a mirror of the ODM’s you hate, and you are becomming more and more like the ones you claim are so wrong everyday.
Peace, out. Joe. Go watch the Yankees lose again or something.
“it helps remind me just how valuable this site is. It helps remind me that as ugly as this business is, it is necessary.”
O, I couldn’t agree more. The pabulum passing for Christianity today, which shaped the people who write for CRN.Info needs to be exposed.
That way, even if the people writing about and defending the counterfeit version of Christianity espoused and advanced here can’t/won’t repent, perhaps some of the readership might see through their self-righteousness and pride.
“I do truly mean, that I want nothing to do with the Christianity you represent.”
That we can agree on…The feeling is mutual. I want nothing to do with Rob Bell and your church either, if you can call it Christianity.
Wow.
Out of the heart and all that I suppose.
From now on whenever someone pops off that this site is just like the ODMs but from another perspective I’ll just point them to this thread.
Good Idea Tim,
If they have an objective bone in their body, they will see no difference.
BTW, dads, Happy Fathers Day.
Even you, Joe, and Carlos…and especially Rick who must be brimming with pride about his Son.
Hey John,
When was the last time my wife commented here? Also, if you’re drowning maybe you should just get out of the water.
Joe,
I do not know the last time Erica commented here. Believe it or not, my universe does not rotate around this site. I can tell you how many times my wife has…0!!
I am swimming against the tide of hypocrisy here, and will struggle as long as the Lord allows.
John said,
So I went to his blog where I found this sentence very near the beginning
Now, maybe if you had done a better job of staying “on track” well who knows..
Good Night, Joe
That’s gotta stink to have your own wife figure you’re gonna mess it up.ouch
It is a good night John, same to you.
Reading this thread is so funny! This is like watching the old Roller Derby competitions from the eighties! Or red rover red rover send an ODM right over! LOL
I have noticed that comments that have a lot of “you guys” in them seem to be in the “unproductive” category. And for some reason those type of comments seem to reproduce after their own kind.
It’s called the Genesis principle.
Agreed, Rick!
Interestingly, as I survey the front page, of the 10 articles listed, two are commending ODM sites for something positive, one is responding to an ODM not usually noted here, 1 is a humorous post, and the remaining 6 are about applied Christianity of different sorts…
With all of the squealing and finger-pointing in some of those threads, just as “on-topic” as those here, you’d never know it from listening to the ODM apologists…
As usual, the data and facts and circumstances paint a wholly different reality than the Don Quixote world of John, Ken and company…
Totally agreed (aside from calling Jesus’ teaching ‘pablum’), it would be nice if more Christians started following Christ instead of Tomas de Torquemada, the father of ODM’s…
I really believe that negativism is a stronghold. It is different than real discernment, which is a part of a believer’s life but not the main course. After a while negativism becomes who you are and you cannot even reply to a devotional post with anything but with an argument or criticism.
It is this type of visceral negativism that cannot even bring your self to admit that Rick Warren does some beneficial acts of compassion because you think that in and of itself is compromise. And that deep judgmentalism assigns sinister motivation to even anything good that someone does. If Rob Bell invented a cure for AIDs these people would suggest he was the anti-christ and was preparing to deceive people.
It is that type of hysteria which diminishes any capacity for sound and honest correction due to the unbridled nature of that kind of negativism. It is not only some major points of disagreement, it is an across the board demeaning of everything a person says and does. In the end, we cannot even agree on showing compassion.
PB proves again that biblical accuracy matters little when it conflicts with his own personal beliefs. He asserts that justification is needed when none is needed as it is in the original language.
iggy
–That said, though, these days you (and Ken) are sounding a whole lot like the guy on the left, with about as much credibility.–
Wow, I don’t think that was so much “stepping over the line” as it was putting yourself into a circus cannon and having yourself shot way across it.
“putting yourself into a circus cannon and having yourself shot way across it.”
Sometimes within the sniping comes something funny. I will save this and use it in the future as if it was my own!
PB,
John, your the tsunami! LOL!
iggy
It is interesting that a compassion piece, as this was, is opened with an attack of sorts (against a general group) and then is illustrated by a movie laden with blasphemy.
I wonder, in seriousness, do you feel comfortable with God’s name being blasphemed?
(I bet someone will say that the attitude/behavior/opinions/ of the ODM’s are blasphemy, oh no they wont, because then they will say I lied and made bad assumptions/judgements)
This site is so predictible. Please, I urge you, look in the mirror. I am going to take the advice of friends and leave for awhile. Ya’ll know where to find me.
This is a really interesting point. Its been awhile since CRN.info nothing but fisking ODMs in article after article, instead the writing revolves around a general Christian worldview and yet, apparently John and Ken feel just as convicted as if they were being directly exposed.
Yeah, that general group is “Christians”. Notice CP says “I suppose we all have our moments”, including himself in that general group. Interesting that you felt convicted by the article.
I guess he should have used a mobster movie.
Wondering how you define ‘laden’ with ‘blasphemy’.
According to Screenit, there are three times in which ‘damn’ is used in conjunction with God’s name, along with one other use of his name with ‘Oh’ preceeding. Not having seen the movie, and assuming you have not, either, I’m not sure I would classify this as ‘laden’ or whether or not instances noted were done in a blasphemous manner…
Or – are you trying to change topics again to demonstrate your ability to sanctimoniously elevate personal convictions (re: movies) to the level of cross-cultural absolutes?
Has anyone even considered that Sylvester Stallone is the antichrist?
Ya know, sometimes I hear Rod Serling’s voice in my head.
I would respectfully disagree – the illustration was rather a perfect mirror to the present conversation. To wit:
You have 3 groups concerned:
Group A: (Radical/Fundamenalist Islamists) Which objectifies and demonizes Group B, primarily from afar, distorting their beliefs, mischaracterizing their actions and irrationally blaming them for the sorry state of the world view in which Group A has placed itself.
Group B: (Jews) Which, while not completely innocent in the affairs of the world in question, has a legitimate right to exist in the same world as Group A without the abuse from that group.
Group C: (Danish Editorialists) Which, while not completely innocent in its editorializing, rather objectively, though pointedly, observes the brutish tactics and decries the actions of Group A. In response, Group A howls at the unfairness of being called out for their inhuman behavior, responding with violent words and protests of ‘you did it too’ and ‘they deserved it’.
Now, if you replace Group A with ODM’s, Group B with Emerging/Emergent and Evangelical (particularly PD/SS) Christians, and Group C with writers here and like-minded critics, you’ve got a perfect parallel in illustrations.
Not over the line, at all, Jazz…
Though I forgot Group D, the western press, who makes wry observations about it all from the standpoint of an interested, but partially detached, third party.
In the illustration above, Group D would be Rick Frueh…
Pastorboy again tries but fails to show his superior Grace that he thinks he is endowed with from on high… sorry John you are a sinner saved be the same amazing grace we all are. you need not strive to get more that what God has already given.
Try walking in the grace you have as it then is rather hard to condemn others while doing that.
Now, before you state i am condemning you, I am not. I have tried over and over to get you to answer straight forward questions and all I get is digs against me.
Ken showed more grace toward me in this thread than you have ever…
Ken,
About your blessings,
I do take that sincerely… = )
iggy
iggy,
That’s the way to take it.
wow… just got to this thread. hahaha. Did Ken just accuse US of pride and self-righteousness?
That’s right, Nathan, deal with it!
Ever wonder why Ken ans PB have to come and defend themselves after every post?
I got the answer…
Even if the post is not about ODM”S then the thread generally turns into ODM’s.
Someone usually includes in his/her comment something negative about ODM’s.
It may not be about ODM when first thoughts come to mind and then post.
But someone has to make a comparison to ODM.
Parallel Universe
Jose -
When I read through this thread and some of the other recent ones, I don’t necessarily see that, though it is a good hypothesis. I see blame on both ’sides’ (which is a bit generalizing, since not everyone fits to a ’side’).
For instance, in this thread, I didn’t know E.R. was referring to an ODM quote in a comment on another site – and it wasn’t until Ken took umbrage with it that it came to anyone else’s attention… It wasn’t until SBA (#11) and PB (#17) jumped in with both feet that the topic changed from the OP to ODM criticism and the “b-b-b-b-b-but you do it too…” defensiveness.
When I go to the other recent threads that devolved (which is really on a small number of posts), the same pattern tends to emerge (no pun intended)…
–Now, if you replace Group A with ODM’s–
Which is precisely the place where you cannon-shot over the line.
–Group B with Emerging/Emergent and Evangelical (particularly PD/SS) Christians, and Group C with writers here and like-minded critics, you’ve got a perfect parallel in illustrations–
Playing the victim card, I see.
Actually a D-
Actually I like to think of it as being “persecuted” for our strident obedience to the message of Christ.
At least I think that’s how the “other side” phrases it.
How is that over the line? Are they not a group which, in the objective view of things, “objectifies and demonizes Group B, primarily from afar, distorting their beliefs, mischaracterizing their actions and irrationally blaming them for the sorry state of the world view in which Group A has placed itself.”
This fits the “blame everything on the ECM; categorize most everything you despise in Christianity today under the ‘emergent’ label, whether it fits or not; conflate the ECM and PD/SS/Evangelical Christians as well” model observed at AM/CR?N/SoL/TP/ET/etc.
While I would consider Group B to be ‘victims’ in the matter, I would consider Group C to be their neighbors, willing to be involved in their defense…
“Ken took umbrage with it”
I hate to place a pin into the inflated balloon of self-worth here at CRN.Info but you really do not produce anything close to anger in me.
The actual feeling is pity fir you and so I really have tried to actually dialogue with you. But it always turns into what is currently happening with Jazz. Because we dare to disagree with “the anointed of the Lord” we are immediately vilified by your supposedly superior erudition.
As I just told the Lord, we’re dealing with those who have “egos the size of Texas.” So I have little doubt that you’ll continue parading as puppets behind the men you exalt like Rob Bell and Erwin McManus and even Rick Warren as you now carry on with the whine-a-thon and playing your li’l innocent victim card.
That’s a great line. It made me laugh out loud.
Ken, I was not suggesting anger, but your comment #5 which was more along the line of ‘taking offense’.
I don’t see that any of us feels ‘anointed’ any more than you in dealing with the workings of the faith, though we would share a concern and empathy for those innocents you continue to attack to the detriment of the Bride of Christ…
Umbrage – : a feeling of pique or resentment at some often fancied slight or insult.
In other words, at Ken’s re-phrasing of his initial arguments, assertions and insults we didn’t immediately agree with him.
You really don’t read what we write, do you?
And the Lord said, “I know what you mean.”
Wow, this is quite a charge coming from someone who regularly puts an average of half-a-dozen links to his own articles in everything he writes. Kind of a like a 500-lb man telling us we really need to lose weight…
I just told the Lord that Ken just said that “we’re dealing with those who have “egos the size of Texas.”
The Lord said, “Don’t listen to that, he says that kind of stuff all the time”.
–How is that over the line? Are they not a group which, in the objective view of things, “objectifies and demonizes Group B, primarily from afar, distorting their beliefs, mischaracterizing their actions and irrationally blaming them for the sorry state of the world view in which Group A has placed itself.”–
Is that a serious question? Then, seriously, no, they are not as you want caricature and characterize them.
–While I would consider Group B to be ‘victims’ in the matter, I would consider Group C to be their neighbors, willing to be involved in their defense…–
Emergents as victims? Wow, you should go into stand-up comedy. Quit your day job, you’re a sure hit on the circuit.
Flipping back to the original context:
Sure enough – the illustration is picture perfect.
Thanks, Jazz, for proving my point.
“As I just told the Lord”.
Ken, was that a typo? Why would you **need** to tell the omnicient God anything like that?
” . . We are dealing with”. How do you know without a doubt that you are on the Lord’s ** side ** on this issue and they are not?
Tim,
You really don’t understand what I write, do you?
John Hughes,
New to the Christian faith, are we? God doesn’t **need** human beings, period.
However, He has chosen to interact with us and part of that interaction is a li’l thing known as prayer.
So, while He doesn’t **need** us to converse with Him, the Lord has chosen to have us **need** to pray. I’m glad I can help you out with this.
And then you wonder: “How do you know without a doubt that you are on the Lord’s ** side ** on this issue and they are not?”
I ask in return, how do you or they know without a doubt they are on the Lord’s **side** on this issue and I am not?
Ken,
It is not that we don’t understand, we do, yet then you attack someone for doing as you also seem to practice.
iggy
Ken,
Is that your newest title? “the anointed of the Lord” ? LOL!
really this is used once in scripture concerning David who would not attack Saul as Saul was the anointed of the Lord. David knew Saul was not doing as God called him, yet respected God much as to not go against God even when Saul was obviously sinning.
So your usage seems out of context and more in line with Jimmy Swaggart who used it to justify his own sins as he hid them.
So again it is not that we don’t understand you, you seem to say things that are way out of context of scripture then attack others who are more orthodox than you are on many points.
iggy
Ken,
I would love to hear YOUR answer on this one!
Please indulge us ole wise affectionate uncle,
iggy
Hey Ken – that was great how you sued to **—–** to mock John. I’ll bet no one noticed but me. I love creative mocking, not so much regular unvarnished mocking.
That was **nuanced**!
Rick,
“I love creative mocking, not so much regular unvarnished mocking.”
Yes, I can see since you’ve now done it to me. Feel better…
Carlos,
We don’t speak the same language.
Ken – I am being used of God to strengthen you from attacks! Mine are usually light hearted and contain some humor.
Usually when I get postal it shows!
The feel better is relative in my case, not so good today (physically). The outward man is perishing while the inward man is renewed day by day.
I’m going to ask for something new here from everybody. Let’s try to keep the comments in a thread related to a post. If everybody wants, I’ll write a post every week specifically for making eachother upset and arguing over how we all treat each other poorly.
Ken,
Well I am not sure what language you are speaking in… but dearest affectionate Uncle, your seem to only want to communicate on a very low level…
In fact, just when I see hope in you, your actions stomp out what little light I saw.
My prayers are with you.
iggy
Ken, I am sure that over the years, you have shared the gospel with your family, that Jesus died for their sin, that he paid the whole price, that all that is required is for them to believe that this grace will cover them as well, all they have to do is accept it by faith.
When you share that good news with them, do they categorically reject it? Do they say, no, you have to earn your way into heaven? Do they say you have to become a Roman Catholic before you can become a Christian?
Or do they say what so many of my Catholic friends say when we talk about the Good News: “Yes, I believe that as well!”
I’m really interested in your answer to this because out of all the Catholics I’ve talked to, only a very very small percentage of them look at me like I must be from a different planet when I share my faith with them.
JOhnD’
I have found that the RCC that seem confused are very superficial and are only RCC by name and not by true faith. Yet I have found that many in the RCC hold to the traditions and teachings of Grace. Some ODM’s forget that Calvin and Luther were greatly influenced by RCC.
From an article here:
Note that Tauler bordered on Universalism in his teaching… I believe that this is where Luther and Calvin found that the atonement brought eternal security for the believer though I see that Calvin added that it was limited. Luther did not, he just stated that it was not for us to question or look at this teaching too deeply but just accept it.
Once again, the ODM revisionists try to cover up and change the historical Christianity. They seem to thing that God dropped the teachings of Grace out of the sky for Calvin and Luther and refuse to acknowledge these men only build on the foundations of th4e men before them.
Ken loves to revise history to his own advantage especially in his attack against the mystics… yet without the mystics Grace would have been lost in the teachings of the RCC.
iggy
* my added comment.
Hi all,
long time listener, first time caller!
Totally off topic, but just a curious fun question: has anyone ever thought of a weekend retreat with everyone who comments here and just having a good long theological talk in a cabin for several days? I’d love to see the interactions between everyone on video.
-Aaron
John – no, but that just means many have a head knowledge. While it is true that applies to many evangelicals, the RCC does not preach salvation by grace through faith alone. That is why the church itself is as Ken said – apostate.
They are a church of works which Paul said if you preach then “Christ has proftied you nothing” and “You have fallen from grace”.
It is serious.
Rick,
You also acknowledge that faith without works is dead…
So it cannot be just faith alone, but faith that results works that come from that same faith.
It is a union of both not in opposition.
Luther taught that these were in opposition and imposed “alone” on James and Paul’s teaching
Paul
Dealing with earning salvation by our own merit.
James
It is the union of faith and our actions that follow this faith that makes our faith complete. THat is the biblical teaching regardless to Luther. THe RCC teaches this…
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06701a.htm
Sorry hit submit too soon.
I see that this is the issue with some of the reformed theology as it ignores biblical teachings in place of traditions.
It RCC does have issues I admit, yet to state that Luther was completely right, is wrong. We are not justified just by faith, but by our faith in action in response to what God has done. Paul even states that without love we are nothing. Yet, look closer at that word “love” and you will see it is charity. Charity is love in action… so faith is the response to the Action of the Love from God to us in which we respond in actions of love back to God.
All of it is of, from, and for God.
God works His charity of love in us so that it will work through us.
iggy
Iggy – we are justified totally by faith in Jesus Christ without works. Works substantiate that faith but they do help or add to what Christ has done. Who cares about Luther or anyone else?
The RCC teaches that people can get to heaven after death by the prayers and good works of living saints, that reduces the redemption of Chris as nothing more than a launching pad that needs us to finish it.
Can you imagine a church teaching that sins can be forgiven by the prayers and works of sinners, and that forgiveness can be applied to the dead?! And what should we say to a church that teaches that when a person dies, even if they believe in Christ, their sins are still not forgiven and must be worked out?
There is no way to defend the institution and its teachings.
–Sure enough – the illustration is picture perfect.–
I haven’t seen concentration camps filled with emergents, not mass graves of them, Chris. Nor am I aware of any inquisition or pogroms against emergents. Nor is anyone walking into emergent ‘churches’ with bombs strapped to their chests.
You crossed the line again, Chris, and in a sick way. Saying I would mock Jews as having been victims of Islamic hatred is sick. IAnd to liken emergents to the Jews is way beyond inconceivable.
I’d ask for an apology, but I know better then to expect one. I’ll let your comments stand, though, as a very warped and sick POV.
Jazz,
Man, though you seemed to get the point, you took it to the extreme frontiers!
iggy
Rick,
As I already stated there are issues with doctrines in the RCC. Yet to state that they teach we are not saved by grace through faith without acknowledging our own often missed teachings addressing the fullness of this faith makes us just as guilty of not teaching the Truth of this doctrine as they are.
So before we cast condemnation on them we better be willing to take the same condemnation on ourselves for our lack of diligence concerning this doctrine.
Are you willing to do that? I am not. I plead mercy for them and for myself. I plead that God show them their error as I pray He shows me my own. I pray they have a repentant heart as I pray I have a repentant heart to respond His correction.
Historically if you really look at purgatory, it originated with the Jews and does have a strong base in tradition… though I will say the argument is mostly out of silence in scripture.
iggy
Welcome, Aaron!
A number of the writers have talked about getting together, though finding a date that works (particularly since weekends are difficult for pastors to get free) is the biggest difficulty… We’ve not given up, though…
Jazz,
You’re conflating Nazi/Aryan response to Judiasm with the Islamic response to it (two completely different things).
The Islamic response to Judiasm has some fair points to make (re: treatment of Palestinians), but objectifies and demonizes (two very carefully chosen words) them and then blames them for most of the woes in the world, often conflating them with conspiracies of the Great Satan.
The ODM response to Emergent/Evangelical Christians has some fair points to make (re: over-de-emphasis of personal piety), but objectifies and demonizes them and blames them for most of the woes in the church, often conflating them with the conspiracies of Satan.
No, they aren’t enacting physical violence against the ECM, but the dis-fellowshipping and sanctimonious, overblown rhetoric are identical to the tone of radical Islam.
Your comment about the ‘laughability’ of E/E Christians being ‘victims’ of abuse from the ODM crown is pure demonstration of the objectification which has occurred.
No apology is needed – the shoe fits…
Jazz,
Its an analogy. The analogy is not in the specific beliefs of each party, but rather in the methodology of propaganda.
Also, you’re getting Nazis mixed up with Palestinians.
There are three camps that address the EC from a doctrinal perspective.
1. There the harsh midnight riders whose invectives cloud any real discussion.
2. There are those who approach the doctrinal issue with an attempt at civility and respect.
3. There are a mix of one and two.
There are three basic emergent camps.
1. There are those who have no doctrinal moorings.
2. There are those who honestly take to heart some correction.
3. There is a mix of the two.
My experience has been that most Cathoics have I spoken with are generally confused about and not very confident in their salvation. My wife was one and was clueless.
Not to say that I haven’t met some that you speak about, John but, I found them to be in the minority. That’s just my experience. I would pray that you are right more than myself.
Most I talked with don’t have a clue as to their church doctrine. Althought that could also be said about many evangelicals.
Apart from my own circle I have found that most folks that claim to be Christian don’t know what 1 Timothy 2:5 says and when shown, don’t agree with what it says.
Rick,
I agree, “many” Catholics and “many” evangelicals just have a head knowledge of the saving truth. An indicator that this is the case is the absence of none other than “good works”, which according to Paul is what we were created for in Christ Jesus (Eph 2:10).
You seem to agree because in your comment to Iggy, you state:
The question remains, is this materially different from core RC doctrine post Vatican II? Based on my understanding of what they teach, it is not.
Would you be so kind as to point out a couple of passages in the Catholic Catechism that teach otherwise. I’m not particularly interested in the “periphery”, i.e., praying for the dead, etc. But in their core teaching, do they teach other than what you find here:
Vatican II teaches, among other things, that followers of other religions can be saved by good works. But if you have heard the teachings of the RCC and refuse to be baptized and join, you will be lost.
They also teach, besides baptism as a means of salvation, that communion also reduces your time in purgetory and in fact adds grace to you. Of course they use the all by grace language but taken in context they do not mean what most evangelicals mean.
RC doctrine post Vatican II has not changed one iota from Trent re. justification and salvation.
See this from CRI:
Thoughts on the Conflict over Justification
And this from the Eternal World Television Network–“Global Catholic Network” :
Rome cannot change because she sees her dogma as infallible. Rick Warren and others who haven’t done their homework accept the RCC as Christian.
But here’s the problem: If these non-protesting “Protestants” like Warren are correct, then the Reformers like Luther and Calvin were wrong because the issues surrounding Rome’s different gospel are exactly the same as they were when the Protestant Reformation first happened.
–Totally off topic, but just a curious fun question: has anyone ever thought of a weekend retreat with everyone who comments here and just having a good long theological talk in a cabin for several days? I’d love to see the interactions between everyone on video.–
That would probably qualify as a ‘pay per view’.
–Man, though you seemed to get the point, you took it to the extreme frontiers!–
So, let me get this straight…
Someone else posts a comic showing a Islamic anti-Jewish hate monger railing again someone else, and says that this Islamic hate-monger is like the ODM, and that doesn’t fit your definition of “extreme frontiers”?
That same someone twists my words into this statement, “(spoken by Islamist): Jews as victims? Wow, you should go into stand-up comedy. Quit your day job, you’re a sure hit on the circuit.”, to an extent that is beyond distasteful. And that doesn’t seem to fit your definition of “extreme frontiers” either, right?
Sorry, iggy, but comparing emergents to the Jews in victim status is itself distasteful, and comparing people like Silva to Muslims who want to kill the Jews is sick.
I’m not the one taking things to any kind of “extreme frontier”. It was already there, I’m only pointing it out, and the more you and other here ignore it, the worse it will get.
Ummm…Actually the cartoon is more about the reaction of the Muslim to the Danish Cartoonist. Not about Jews/Nazis or extremist Muslims.
In other words when PB, Ken, and yourself come here decrying our actions by “You guys are just as bad/worse” it is the same reaction that the Muslim community had towards the Danish cartoonist.
Understanding that most ODM’s are very literal, black and white, non-nuanced, legalists I completely understand why things like satire, analogy, and any other literary devices are difficult to grasp.
I agree with jazz. that comparison may have gone abit too far.
The cartoon had nothing to do with ken,pb and jazz.
So what if they come and defend themselves. They have a right
just as you have the right to defend against ke,pb and jazz.
it might not have been about jews/nazis but someone here took it there.
SO i guess crn.info is not black and white, is it gray then?
Jazz,
As Chris pointed out, the Jews are secondary to the cartoon – it was about the radical Islamist response to the Danish cartoonists a couple years back.
QFT
We choose to ascribe black and white where the Bible truly does ascribe such, leaving gray for where it also belongs in the picture (ex. last week’s Atonement article). The problem of living in a fallen world is two-fold – refusing to see black & white where it exists (calling it gray) AND refusing to see gray where it exists (and calling it black & white) – better described here.
I never thought the cartoon was saying that the way Emergents are treated can be compared to the plight of the Jewish people. I know that’s not what Chris meant.
All Chris was doing was pointing out the fact that those who launch the most viscious attack on the internet seem to have the thinnest skins when it comes to dealing with any criticism they receive.
Agreed! So let them come and defend their positions, thoughts, ideologies, etc…
Coming here and saying “You do it too” is not a defense.
ding-ding-ding
We have a winner!
(Would you like the ‘children-of-the-corn’ Kewpie doll or to continue playing for even bigger, better prizes?)
Ok – you get a prize, as well, Chris…
People who dont fall in line to your understanding in scripture
will defend theirs.
“All Chris was doing was pointing out the fact that those who launch the most viscious attack on the internet seem to have the thinnest skins when it comes to dealing with any criticism they receive.”
let’s continue mocking each other. We are sure making great strides in the kingdom.
Looking from the outside it does seem like you do it too.
whether you want to accept it or not.
I took it as an object lesson on being thin skinned. No big deal.
Rick,
Regarding your comment # 30.
It’s a picture that came to my mind. I often think in pictures. Was it a vision from God? I didn’t think of it that way, as some supernatural “vision” that God placed in my mind, to share with you. I do believe that such a thing (generally speaking) is possible. Bottom line, I really don’t know if it was a picture that God gave me to make you think, or a picture that came to my mind because of my impressions of you. I think it would be more beneficial for you to consider, not, is that some “supernatural vision” but rather, what would lead someone to think something like that? And to understand that I only feel sorrow about the “picture” because previously my main impression of you has been your desire to please God and your ability to communicate in an elegant way His grace and majesty.
Why would I share it, regardless of where it came from? Because I felt like it was my responsibility. Because I feel that it represents some truth: whether it’s the truth that you truly do hate Ingrid, or the truth that you need to let your criticisms of her go and fill your mind and conversations with Christ Himself, or something else entirely.
No, Rick, I think the picture came to my mind because you I constantly perceive you as someone daily obsessed with animosity towards Ingrid. It really does seem to me like you have some deep underlying antagonism towards her. I really wonder if the “gender” issue that comes up so often in your comments regarding her is truly the root of the issue. Why did her gender and how that relates to her “criticisms” not bother you before, when you used to write on SLICE?
I shared it at the moment I did because to me, Ingrid’s feelings that you hate her seem so on target, yet you so readily set that possibility aside. You’re convinced you don’t hate her.
I really hope that if such a picture came to your mind, not as a result of your sitting around thinking up, “Now what should go on Amy’s tombstone?” – but just came into your mind – and especially if you felt “how sad that is, that that is the main thing that I see in her” that you would share it with me, regardless of how I might feel about it, regardless of where my attempts to discern whether or not it represented truth led to, regardless of whether or not I would even consider listening to you.
Because of your health situation it was difficult for me to bring it up (like I said, it happened weeks ago.) It’s absolutely not meant to frighten you though. I would see how you could take it that way. Personally, because of your health, I would just as soon that the words had come to me as a picture on a big banner that you were holding, instead of on a tombstone.
And now I feel it is my responsibility to ask you not to share with me anything else about anything.
Interesting how one side sees: disagreement=descernment.
But at the same time they view disagreement=hate. When it’s pointed in their direction. Usually playing the role of victim.
Scotty,
You seem to be making a generalization that a so called non-ODM criticizer couldn’t possibly have a hateful attitude towards an ODM. Is that what you’re saying?
I believe that within ANY disagreement/discernment a person on “either side” can be full of hate or something close to it that doesn’t please God. Do you agree? Or does being a non-ODM criticizer make one immune to that type of sin?
I think one sees what they chose or want to see. Personally? I see disagreement as just that and nothing more.
What are you saying here, generally? That in disagreement there CAN”T be hatred? Ever, by anyone? How can that be? Hatred is part of the sin nature.
jazz,
Jesus stated that to be angry at someone else is the same as committing murder… the same as lusting after another woman than your wife was stated is adultery.
So, for Ken to hate the emergents as he does makes him no different that the anti Semite who straps bombs to his chest and blows up women and children….
That is Jesus’ teaching and standard, it is not just mine.
So if a “Christian” hates his brother, John stated the Truth is not in him… it is apparent that love is not the motive of most ODM’s… especially in how they have interacted with emerging folk like me. So what is it then? Do we deny the teaching of Jesus becuase you think a cartoon is too rough in its depiction of a truth? Was Jesus then too rough with adulterers and those who hate others?
Tell me then who should I follow that has more insight into this matter than Jesus then I will truly consider you view as not just overreaction to a truth that hit you hard and you seem not willing to deal with.
iggy