Rick recently submitted this article, and I thought it had some really good thoughts on the religion of Calvinism. It specifically addresses a sermon by Paul Washer, in which he makes some very telling statements about how one is saved. It seems like even the most devout in this religion will find some solace in man’s free will.
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Rick,
I’m sure they have some theologically nuianced term that describes the pre-pre salvation condition where the sinner is not regenerated yet and thus
unablewilling to turn to God but is in some sort of intermediate wooing semi-state-of-a-bob condition where they are not yet regenerated and given the faith but almost there. Or something, kinda sorta.(PS. We would call it conviction).
I’m gonna have to remember that one the next time I’m trying to describe something that doesn’t have a good descriptive term for it!
Thanks John
John – your comment provided me with much humor. I didn’t realize you had it in you.
My brother in humor!!
Psalm 139:
1O LORD, you have searched me and known me! 2You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
you discern my thoughts from afar.
3You search out my path and my lying down
and are acquainted with all my ways.
4Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.
5You hem me in, behind and before,
and lay your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
it is high; I cannot attain it.
7 Where shall I go from your Spirit?
Or where shall I flee from your presence?
8 If I ascend to heaven, you are there!
If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
9If I take the wings of the morning
and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10even there your hand shall lead me,
and your right hand shall hold me.
11If I say, “Surely the darkness shall cover me,
and the light about me be night,”
12 even the darkness is not dark to you;
the night is bright as the day,
for darkness is as light with you.
13For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother’s womb.
14I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works;
my soul knows it very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you,when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
16Your eyes saw my unformed substance;in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there was none of them.
17How precious to me are your thoughts, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!
18 If I would count them, they are more than the sand.
I awake, and I am still with you.
2 sam 12:
11Thus says the LORD, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you out of your own house. And I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. 12For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel and before the sun.’” 13 David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” And Nathan said to David, “The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child who is born to you shall die.” 15Then Nathan went to his house. And the LORD afflicted the child that Uriah’s wife bore to David, and he became sick. 16David therefore sought God on behalf of the child. And David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground. 17And the elders of his house stood beside him, to raise him from the ground, but he would not, nor did he eat food with them. 18On the seventh day the child died. And the servants of David were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they said, “Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spoke to him, and he did not listen to us. How then can we say to him the child is dead? He may do himself some harm.” 19But when David saw that his servants were whispering together, David understood that the child was dead. And David said to his servants, “Is the child dead?” They said, “He is dead.” 20Then David arose from the earth and washed and anointed himself and changed his clothes. And he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. He then went to his own house. And when he asked, they set food before him, and he ate. 21Then his servants said to him, “What is this thing that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive; but when the child died, you arose and ate food.” 22He said, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept, for I said, ‘Who knows whether the LORD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’ 23But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.”
There is nothing “arminian” about Washer’s statements.
How is one saved then? serious question.
Acts 16:30-34
I hope that helps. There are a bunch of other practical situations in Scripture like this. Sometimes the simple answer is the best…
r
Joe
Believe on Jesus the Messiah as the only Savior of the world and as the giver of eternal life.
From there we all grow into more truth. Many will make it more complicated and some will offer earthly benefits. Both wrong.
Joe, Rick: is enough only to believe in jesus and I should be save?
What transformation will I go through If so I desire to?
Jose,
Jesus began His message with “repent and believe The Gospel”.
The thief…the jailer…et al…when they come to Christ, it is obvious they are broken and contrite in spirit, and have faith in Christ to save them.
We’re believing in Jesus as Savior, per the verses I quoted from above, Savior from what you must ask then…
From what the Bible tells us He saves us from. Sin, death, the devil, the evil system of the world, the punnishment of sin…etc…etc…
As for transformations…I can’t tell you exactly what God will do to each person as they come to believe on His Son, but I can tell you this!
“Therefore if anyone is in Christ they are a new creation, the old is gone, and the new has come!”
r
Joe
I should be clearer…my sentence should read…
Transformation
1. You are immediately and completely spiritually transformed.
2. That spiritual transformation will begin to transform your earthly life.
The speed of that outward transformation varies with each believer due to several variables.
Basically, Jose, what I think you should take out of it concerning our transformation in coming to Christ is that we will be transformed; instantly unto salvation, and continually through our lives by the power of the Holy Spirit renewing us to be in the image of the Son. Since we’re talking about Paul Washer, I’ll take something he said once before, which I happen to agree with. He said that it’s impossible to have a saving encounter with the Living God and not be changed, just like I’d be a liar if I said I got hit by a speeding Mack Truck and was standing before you today just fine and dandy. Just impossible. God, who is powerful to save us, is powerful to change us. We just gotta remember, God changes people at different rates and ways from each other. So we shouldn’t judge those we deem to not be ‘changed’ in our way, or at our pace. Sure, there would be similarities but every person and their relationship with God has it’s variants.
Joe
Rick,
Yes you can immediately be transformed. But you must desire that transformation. This leads to my next question.
Can someone have a false salvation? I can ask the lord into my life but not want the transformation part.
I think there are people who come to christ and God’s desire is to change them, but the old man needs to be broken down. Thus, transformation is a process within. You are instantly saved, but not instantly transformed.
No. We all are somewhat uninformed as to the change the Lord desires to make in our lives, but we cannot come to Christ with some negotiation slanted in your direction.
False conversions probably abound, but only the “Lord knows those that are His”.
Jose,
I think the term “false convert” or “false salvation” is a term Calvinists made up to cover some hole in their theology.
If you look at the Parable of the Sower, Jesus describes four groups of people, two of which a Calvinist would call a “false convert”. The thing is, Jesus doesn’t give any hint that their experiences weren’t real. These people either chose to to walk away or weren’t careful with what was planted in them.
Of course, you can have a situation where there are false converts – this is where people think they have accepted the Lord Jesus, but have in fact, accepted a slanted or false gospel. They may be innocent victims so to speak, but they have believed in a lie.
Jesus was explicit with his parable of the wheat and tares (weeds that so closely resemble the wheat that it’s hard to tell the difference).
True salvation is ALWAYS accompanied with repentance – a turning of your lifestyle and reorienting of your life to the Lord.
Think of the simple story of Zaccheus: it was ONLY after he made a decision (I will repay what I’ve stolen 4 times over) that Jesus smiled and rejoiced, “This day has salvation come to this household.” That’s because he repented.
Day of Pentecost: “What must we do to be saved?”
Repentance is the first word out of Peter’s mouth.
It does not mean our lives are cleaned up right away, but we do begin – with the help of the Lord – to reorient our life in line with His teachings. There’s nothing that complicated about it.
Salvation is something given to us free of charge from God and we can do nothing to deserve it. It is also a done deal, finished complete by Christ and we can not add anything to win God’s favour to make us more or less saved. In actual fact we are already saved, we just choose to live the truth of it or not. Chad preached a sermon on it this past Sunday that describes it much better than I ever will be able to do.
Rick has a very good explanation of repentance on his blog that is worth reading.
Thank you Eugene. When you click on your link you must scroll down two posts to the one titled “Repentance”.
No sweat, Rick. Your blog has become one of my favourites. Thank you for doing an excelent job.
ER,
Once saved always saved?
I dont want to enter into this murky water. Buti will
Yes free of charge by jesus dead and resurrection.
Once saved always saved? Mmm…
I think you can choose to live as a saved person, set free by Christ, and then probably be stupid enough to choose against it again. God gave us the choice, didn’t He? But that doesn’t change the work that He has already done. Hebrews 10:26, 27 suggest that a human being can choose against God’s salvation and transformation after he/she experienced salvation.
So, no not saved always saved.
But I have been wrong in the past…
Eugene – I think you are right re your last point (#20). To say that a person can’t backslide after tasting of Christ is unbiblical and is warned against by all the epistles, apostles and even Christ Himself.
When His disciples asked: “Are there only a few that be saved?” Jesus didn’t answer and say, “Don’t worry, it’s all paid for.”
He said: “Strive to enter in at the confined and narrow gate, for many will try to enter in and will not be able.”
This connotes that no one will simply enter the kingdom of the Lord, when He returns, simply by kicking their feet up. Salvation is worked out over the course of years and experiences. God gets all the credit for none of us is deserving.
The clear and simple reading of Hebrews 6 and 10 teach the possibility of apostasy. One cannot sin himself out of salvation, but sin can harden one’s heart to such a degree that he “counts the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified as an unholy thing.
Maybe hes just hoping He will? Like when King David pleaded for Uriah’s wife child, God still did what he did
How salvation works stays a mystery to me…
Luckily I don’t have to understand it to accept it.
Andy – that kind of altar call is exactly what the Calvinists decry. Go visit Old Truth and see the number of posts that refute that type of Finneyesque seeking.
It’s beyond me how anything could be truly viewed as apostacy in a Calvinistic worldview. It’s all foreordained, so why not just sit back and enjoy the ride?
I have read a few post where some Calvinist came down heavy on Paul Washer, over at Puritian Forum (i’m not a member lolll)
I’m not even sure if Paul Washer a 5 pointer???
Andy – his missionary site “Heart’s Cry” espouses Calvinism in their doctrinal statement.
Phil,
can you eleborate on this?
“so why not just sit back and enjoy the ride?”
Oh ok thks…
Ironically i think their criticism of him was exactly what you’ve posted,but for the opposite concerns lol,that he seemed to be encouaging the idea of freewill in salvation..
Jose,
I’m just saying that if one believes the elect are predestined and that grace is irresistible, then what good is to fight against apostacy. It seems that if the damned are predestinined to damnation as well, than there really isn’t anything they can do to become “more damned”.
Calvinism at its nature goes against a very huge point of the Biblical narrative. That is that human choices matter. We have a say in our destiny. We can choose to work with or against God.
Phil – my freewill brother!
I choose to be your friend.
But with Chris L., it has to be all God.
Thanks for the love, Rick.
THis is something I have a problem understanding on predestination.
How do you know you are predestine?
I don’t consider myself a calvinist but then I am not sure.
We do have a say if we let God take control of our lives and he will transform you.
Then I’d say you’re not a Calvinist… You’ve got no say in the matter if John Calvin was correct…
Well, the Calvinist answer would be that if you have a desire to become a Christian, you are predestined. Personally, I think that a more intellectually honest answer would be that no one knows. It’s all a big crap shoot. You could spend your whole life thinking you’re predestined and then find out in the end, you weren’t. Bummer…
I don’t think it’s so much about letting God “take control” as it is submitting to Him. God doesn’t want us to be puppets, but He wants our hearts.
How do we explain Romans 9:11-13? It seems to suggest predestination.
ER,
You might read this and this – part of the problem is that we (trapped within the half-dimension of one-way time) try to make all of our assumptions based upon an understanding of nature, when God exists beyond nature (without the constraints of time).
My short answer would be that predestination and election aren’t necessarily the same thing. Also, the concept of election in the New Testament has to be understood alongside what it meant in the Old. I believe a very strong case can be made that election is more of communal concept than an individual one.
God speaks of his plan for Israel, the church, and the confusing transition. And this is referring to Isaac and Ishmael specifically. Even as an Arminian I admit that God has sometimes stepped in and swerved events to His will.
I meant Jacob and Esau not Isaac and Ishmael.
And not Joel and Jerry either.
Chris L, in Flatland you would have been a multi sided polygon! A BIG one to house that brain of yours.
I wanted to say this, but now you have quoted Rob who said it first: “So, to paraphrase Rob Bell, “Is it free will or predestination? Yes.””
Chris P.
Are you a Calvinist?
I just find you rather a strange mix for the AoG…
Native American Dream Catchers (an occult practice) are part of your churches logo…
I also noticed that your church preaches free will…
On its “We Believe section” it states.
6. WE BELIEVE IN THE COMPLETE FREEDOM OF THE BELIEVER IN ALL MATTERS OF CONSCIENCE, PERTAINING TO WORSHIP, THE STUDY OF THE WORD, AND THE WORKING OUT OF OUR FAITH. WE ARE ALL INDIVIDUALLY RESPONSIBLE TO THE LORD IN MATTERS OF FAITH. THE HOLY SPIRIT IS ABLE TO GUIDE US INTO ALL TRUTH. THEREFORE WE PROMOTE NO MAN-MADE IDEOLOGIES WHETHER THEY BE IN THE RELIGIOUS REALM OR THE POLITICAL. THERE ARE NO SUPREME ECCLESIASTICAL AUTHORITIES HOLDING SWAY OVER THE BODY.CHURCH AND STATE MUST MAINTAIN THEIR SEPARATE FUNCTIONS AS BIBLICALLY MANDATED.
Also, your church seems in hot water as far as the gifts of the Spirit. Not with me, but with people like Ken Silva who have attacked others for saying statements like you Church puts out.
7. WE BELIEVE THAT THE MINISTRIES OF APOSTLE, PROPHET, EVANGELIST, PASTOR, AND TEACHER ARE IN FULL OPERATION IN THIS DAY, THOUGH NOT BEING UTILIZED IN THE SAME WAY AS THE ORIGINAL CHURCH LEADERSHIP OF THE FIRST CENTURY CHURCH. THEREFORE NO MAN MAY ADD TO OR TAKE AWAY FROM THE SCRIPTURES. WE BELIEVE THAT ALL THE SPIRITUAL GIFTS INCLUDING TONGUES, PROPHECY, AND MIRACLES ARE ACTIVE AND IN FULL USE TODAY. WE AFFIRM BOTH OF THESE BELIEFS ON THE BASIS OF SOLA SCRIPTURA. THE SCRIPTURES DO NOT CLEARLY STATE ANYWHERE THAT THESE THINGS HAVE PASSED FROM USE IN THE CHURCH. ALL TRADITIONS AND BELIEFS OF MEN MUST STAND OR FALL ON THE FOUNDATION OF THE SCRIPTURES. SO MUST ALL USAGE OF THE SPIRITUAL GIFTS AND MINISTRIES.
Yet most intriguingly, I have been personally attack as not believing in inerrancy for stating this very thing… yet your church states almost exactly what I believe and state…
I guess you also go to a church that denies the Bible is inerrant.
1. WE BELIEVE THAT THE BIBLE IS THE INSPIRED, INFALLIBLE WORD OF GOD. WITHOUT ERROR IN THE ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS. SUFFICIENT FOR THE BELIEVER IN ALL MATTERS PERTAINING TO SALVATION AND REVELATION, FAITH AND CONDUCT. IT HAS SUPREME AUTHORITY OVER THE CHURCH AND THE INDIVIDUAL BELIEVER. IT IS SECOND ONLY TO THE TRIUNE GODHEAD IN THAT AUTHORITY. IT IS ONLY UNDERSTOOD IN FULLNESS THROUGH THE REVELATION OF THE INDWELLING HOLY SPIRIT.
The strangest thing is that the AoG which is your own denomination teaches the same thing Doug Pagitt does concerning eternal security.
This is from the oficial AoG website.
So it seems you are again at odds with Ken Silva and many other ODM’s you so adore.
Really that was the reason I left the AOG denomination. I loved it, yet found I could not honestly answer that I believed in the full eternal security that one cannot be take out of the Father’s Hand. One cannot even take oneself out of His hand. God also promised to NEVER leave us or forsake us. He also stated that if He started a work in us, He would finish it. I would say that if He started His work in you or me, and then cast us out He then lied and not finished His work.
So again, you come and put out snide and often very nasty rude comments… or post a bunch of scripture in defense of a man who teaches contrary to your own denomination…. that attack others who believe most like you…
So I am confused… how does one have Unity in Christ with you… if they seem to not live up to your own ambiguous holy standard of relativistic truth… they you attack. But they can believe totally contrary to you and you endorse and embrace them as brothers.
Please explain all this… if you can… Cuz Jesus might ask the same question later.
; )
iggy
I agree, they are Hyper-arminian.
Drive-By Comment: As a “calvinist,” I have to ask: Why would anyone come to and hang around a non-calvinist blog to learn about/understand calvinism?
Phil: What you describe is HYPER-Calvinism.
We can choose to work with or against God. I wasn’t aware that He needed our help.
Keith,
I am trying to get an answer from Chris P as far as this same type of question… if he is not a Calvinist and attends a denomination that is definitely NOT Calvinist, though may take from some of his teachings, why would he attack those who are like minded and befriend those who go against his own denomination.
And these guys want me to follow their version of truth whatever that may be from their relativistic theological bent?
iggy
Keith – just come by to fellowship and add and receive different perspectives. And feel free to hit me with humorous and cleaver jokes about Arminianism, I can take it.
How about “free will semi pelagian man loving Arminian troll”! See, that was great!
Keith,
You can work together with someone who doesn’t need your help. You do it all the time. The great part about it is that God WANTS to involve us, though He doesn’t need the help of human hands.
If we’re not supposed to work together with God, what exactly ARE we supposed to do, because…I think we need to know?
r
Joe
“If we’re not supposed to work together with God, what exactly ARE we supposed to do, because…I think we need to know?”
Glorify God and enjoy Him forever.
As one great preacher said “Salvation belongs to the Lord.” So what does it mean to golrify God and how does one do it??
So…no working with God then?
“Sit back and enjoy the ride” then? (see earlier…)
Doesn’t jive w/ the Word, friend.
Well if you want to work for your salvation you are in trouble, alough I do not think this is what you are refering to. But in reagards to working after justification let me quote one other great pastor from the past.
“1O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?”
So it is sit back and trust God, have faith in Christ ,but it defenitly is not working. You recived the Spirit by faith and now you want to keep it by works. Everything in life is faith in Christ and His work. Can an grape say I did the work because hey I am a good grape. No that is nonsense. The vine is the one doing the work, all the grape does is abide in the vine.
So i am just wondering what you mean by “work with God”??
Kyle,
Joe is correct. There is definitely an expectation that we work with God. I don’t see grace as an elevator of some sort, but I see it more like a power source, like wind. We have to turn ourselves in the right direction to have it work with us and for us. If we do nothing, we just stay stagnant.
So it’s not that we’re working for our salvation, it’s just we are working because of it. It’s interesting to me that in the passage you mention about the vine and the branches, that Jesus says it’s possible for branches to be cut off. It seems to me that Jesus was saying we need to choose to stay close to Him, and to live in the reality of grace, or we will perish.
You have a very low view of grace. So branches can choose if they are prunder, cut off and burned?? Good branches produce fruit, they only way that they produce fruit is by staying in the vine. But branches are not the vinedresser, the Father is. He is the one cutting off branches that are worthless and produce no fruit because they are not a part of the vine. It is kind of like sheep. You go “baba” becasue you are a sheep. You don’t say “baba” to become a sheep.
Grace changes who we are so we enjoy God and enjoy doing His will! Grace is amazing and is nothing like a power source. That is a really bad analogy.
How does one stay in unmerited favor. If we don’t deserve the favor in the first place what do we do to keep it? Again you where justfifed by faith, but now you what to set up your sail to finish your salvation.
3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? or “power source, like wind.”
Kyle,
Well this is a very old argument. I’m not talking about whether or not God loves us or not. I’m not necessarily even talking about salvation, although I do think it is possible for someone to walk away from a relationship with God, just as we can walk away from any other relationship. It’s not an easy thing, or something that happens instantaneously in my mind.
I would say part of the issue is that you seem to be thinking of salvation as a state, similar to a light switch that’s either off or on. I think it’s more useful to see it as a process. Saying a prayer is the beginning of the process, but it’s not the end. I believe God walks with us and expects to put collaboritive effort along with the Holy Spirit into knowing Him more, following Him more closely. Whether or not this is work is largely a question of semantics to me, that I don’t really care about that much.
Something that always puzzled me about the Calvinist view of grace is that they God decreed from eternity who would be saved and who would not be. But yet, they seem ademant in defending the idea that a person undergoes some sort of instantaneous change of state when he says the sinner’s prayer. It seems to me that if God decreed something from eternity past, that a pre-Christian person would already be saved and not living in it. It’s just one of the many holes I see in Calvinist theology, I guess.
God’s grace is unmerited, and I’ve done nothing to earn it.
However, now, being found in that Grace, having been ‘hired’, I am expected to do my job, and work for and with my new Boss.
Whether you believe you can be fired or not is up for debate, but I didn’t earn my way in, I personally don’t believe I can ‘earn’ my way out.
But I do have a purpose to do the good works God prepared for me to do and leads me to.
When I say “work with God” it has NOTHING to do with being saved, and everything to do with being changed and walking in that.
Joe
For example, even any Calvinist will tell you that we must put personal effort in to our sanctification in to the life long process of ‘being saved’. I have to apply myself to studying the Word, to fellowship, to prayer, to preaching….etc.
Working with God, see?
We must remember salvation is spoken of in 3 different tenses, used in different ways, in the NT. “you are saved”, “you are being saved”, “you will be saved”. All refering to believers. Look it up, interesting stuff. It’s a lightswitch, a process, and a far off future all at the same time.
Joe
Kyle, Paul, the very same Paul you have been quoting, saw it as part of his work and the work of every Christian to cooperate with God in his work of transformation in our lives. See everything Paul wrote for scriptural evidence.
“See everything Paul wrote for scriptural evidence.”
And an “amen” to that. If we are not called to cooperate with God by our own free will then we are nothing more than divine marionettes. And if God chooses who will go to heaven and who will go to hell, why doesn’t he just have us be born there and save us all a lot of time.