Over at Apprising Ministries, Ken Silva responds to a letter from a reader. Here are a few excerpts that are quite telling of his attitude when it comes to his status

The following is based on an unsolicited email I received here at Apprising Ministries. Please understand that I do not think any pastor-teacher is above reproach [insert typical Emerging Church whining here], etc. [emphasis mine]
What I wish to bring out is how easy, and I’ll argue arrogant as well, it is for people to simply disregard the teaching of someone like myself who has been studying the fields of apologetics, Comparative Religion and evangelizing non-Christian cults for 21 years….

You said: “I was very surprised to see your negative views on Christian meditation in the article CHRISTIAN MEDITATION WITH MANTRA: DOM JOHN MAIN.” So let me put it another way: I am very surprised to see you so quick in attempting to instruct someone like me whom Jesus has called as one of His pastor-teachers. [emphasis mine]

My dad always told me that you could tell alot about someone based on how they respond to correction or constructive criticism. This correspondence to Apprising was in no way instructional or a harsh rebuke. It sounded like an honest reader that was trying to understand where Silva was coming from. Most of the email was actually the reader asking him questions. But, Ken strikes back with his lofty credentials and how a man of his status should not be quickly instructed. How did Silva know that this reader had not spend some time looking at the Apprising articles and made an educated and simply inquisitive inquiry. On top of that, he sends such mixed statements: no pastor is above reproach, but people should not instruct someone who is a pastor-teacher in this manner.

Anyhow, this all too telling of the attitude of both Apprising and CRN:
We are educated, anointed and experienced, therefore we get to criticize whoever we want, whenever we want. And, you better not say anything about it.

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This entry was posted on Monday, June 30th, 2008 at 9:33 pm and is filed under Commentary, Commenting, Hypocrisy, In Tone and Character, Ken Silva, Linked Articles, ODM Policies, ODM Responses, ODM Writers. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
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252 Comments(+Add)

1   Coop    http://whileromeburns.blogspot.com
June 30th, 2008 at 10:54 pm

I myself find it telling the emails that Ken chooses to respond to in this fashion. I’m sure he gets much more email than this on a daily basis, and I’m sure much of it is more pointed than this, asks more questions, is more direct, etc.

2   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
June 30th, 2008 at 11:05 pm

I am very surprised to see you so quick in attempting to instruct someone like me whom Jesus has called as one of His pastor-teachers.

Funny thing is I am also a pastor/teacher at my church… we have over 100 people and growing. Yet, I take seriously someone who will take time to voice a concern about me, my teaching or ministry.

The thing that is frustrating is that Ken wields these titles as some elitist entitlement that he is above reproach, when the scripture states we are held to an even higher standard.

Which again, Ken exchanges sound biblical teachings for his high and holy opinion…

iggy

3   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
June 30th, 2008 at 11:13 pm

I will add this…

Ken states that it is negative to address another professional like a lawyer. That is a huge red herring. Often if you do not question a Dr or lawyer, you will get screwed. The point Ken is making is that we need to not question authority. In the past if I have not questioned what my Dr was doing I might have died. I am not being over dramatic, I was prescribed this “great new medicine” that about dropped me until I stopped it myself.

To me this is one of the core issues and proves what this site, myself and others state over and over… Ken and the other ODMs place themselves above reproach (though Ken states this is not true, he negates that statement with everything else he states!) and they are unaccountable. What so-called accountability there is are ?yes-men that are all of the same mind so nothing is challenged.

OK, you can now get ready for the Ken Silva whine fest coming soon!

iggy

4   Eugene Roberts    http://eugeneroberts.wordpress.com
July 1st, 2008 at 1:46 am

Funny thing is I am also a pastor/teacher at my church… we have over 100 people and growing.

I am also a pastor/teacher/singer/guitar player/usher/cleaner at my church… we have over 300 people and growing. . . . . . :mrgreen:

I had this professor at college, Dr John Howell, who would take time out of class to listen to students’ comments or stories without interrupting them. Some of those students where not very bright in my eyes. I really got irritated and one day I asked him why he allows it. What he said changed my attitude on listening to people and what I thought about their intelligence, training or background. He said that he believes that the Holy Spirit can speak through anyone He chooses and especially through born again Christians. Here was this highly trained theologian that listened to and confessed to learning from 18 year old students.

I guess if God can speak through a donkey, He can speak through anyone He chooses, even Eugene Roberts or Ken Silva.

5   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 1st, 2008 at 6:05 am

Ken has a unique way of putting things. This sentence had his prints all over it:

Not only that but Jesus gave me multiple websites that I never asked for where I also teach Christian values.

It has a little Joseph Smith quality to it. :) I get e-mails too and never publish them, especially the kind like that one. The guy is just asking some questions and seemed to be genuine, it surely didn’t seem to be the kind you could describe as proof that you get attacked for standing for truth.

I got a chuckle out of this post by Ken. This sentence made me laugh as well.

“Well here is a rare time that I’ll offer simply my personal opinion from this Internet “pulpit” of Apprising Ministries.”

We all give our opinions about everything. Even our Biblical interpretations are opinions unless God is confused. When you are a genuine man of God, you never need to remind people. As a matter of fact, the office of pastor/teacher has taken a corporate feel to it in America.

Imagine a flock of sheep moving in a certain direction, and one little sheep walks to the back of the flock and says to the shepherd, “Why are we going this way?”

The shepherd, who is supposed to love this sheep so deeply that he gives his life for him, says

“Hey, how arrogant are you to question me? I am a shepherd, called of God, and I don’t answer to you. Get back in line! I hope this helps”.

Not many real shepherds in today’s western culture. Almost every church when looking to call a pastor, provides the salary package to a prospective candidate for him to consider before he decides. What does that tell you? It tells you it is a decision of pragmatism.

Ask John and Scott over at Verum Serum about their “wonderful” experience with a pastor who considered his authority more important than the welfare of his sheep. He was blind to the fact that the welfare of the sheep WAS his authority.

Scrooge to Marley – “You always were a good man of business”.

Marley – “MANKIND WAS MY BUSINESS!!”

Somewhere along the way we’ve forgotten that part of being a shpeherd. The best we can come up with is

“If I give them the truth that is my entire obligation and is in reality true love”.

Pitiful…

6   ianmcn    
July 1st, 2008 at 6:13 am

He starts the post with:

Please understand that I do not think any pastor-teacher is above reproach

Then completely contradicts it with his usual line of defense: “you’re criticizing me for criticizing X, so you’re just as bad as me”!

This is such a playschool level argument, and a total brick wall to any kind of questioning or discussion. The logical implication is that it is only he that has the authority to criticize. In other words, he is above reproach…

7   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 1st, 2008 at 6:23 am

ianmcn – I do not claim to be above reproach because I am a pstor/teacher, it’s because I am always right. Deal with it! :evil:

8   Eugene Roberts    http://eugeneroberts.wordpress.com
July 1st, 2008 at 6:37 am

Oh, thou greatest of all pastors and teachers, Rick Frueh. How fortunate are us lowly sheep that thou would even considereth us worthy to receiveth thouest greatest teaching. We feeleth the love to be over whelming coming through truth thouest doth speaketh :!:

9   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 1st, 2008 at 6:57 am

OK, Gene, you have addicted me to the smile faces. Isn’t that sin? :x

10   Eugene Roberts    http://eugeneroberts.wordpress.com
July 1st, 2008 at 7:31 am

OK, Gene, you have addicted me to the smile faces. Isn’t that sin?

I will not give my own opinion on this but will only say what the Bible says.

Isaiah 57:4 Whom do you mock, making faces and sticking out your tongues? You children of sinners and liars! NLT

11   John Hughes    
July 1st, 2008 at 7:42 am

After having read Ken’s writings for the past several years (and in the early years agreeing which much he had to say) it became evident that Ken believes himself to be a modern day prophet along the lines of John the Baptist who hears directly from God. In the early days of Slice he began to write as if were hearing directly (literally) from God in real time. Many of his missives :-) started to begin with “it seemed good to the Lord and me today to . . .” for example. He was beginning to scare the children, so to speak. I even wrote an email to Ingrid expressing my concerns and she responded and recognized the problem and promised something would be done. Evidently it was, for he abandoned those types of comments on Slice and toned it down. However, if one reads carefully, you can still see signs of this perceived special relationship with God still appear from time to time in his writings.

I still agree with many of Ken’s foundational points, but his lack of mercy, grace and charity, ad homin attacks on those with whom he disagrees, and basic un-Christ like handling of the same have deeply troubled me to the point where I just don’t visit his website any more. I preceive he feels himself exempted from the New Testament scriptures dealing with kindness, mercy, grace, etc., because he believes he has been given a special prophetic commission from God with a “free hand” to rain down invectives so to speak, in these “last days” sort of like on the lines of the Two Witness in Revelation. (Again, just a preception). Obviously, I don’t believe this is the case and so I find it all rather sad.

Note: It is odd, and in many respects, uncomfortable writing about a person who, in all likelihood, will be reading your comments. So Ken this is not a personal attack, just an observation, and as you are a public figure being discussed in a public forum this is just how it plays out. Weird, but no malice intended.

12   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 1st, 2008 at 7:48 am

“I preceive he feels himself exempted from the New Testament scriptures dealing with kindness, mercy, grace, etc., because he believes he has been given a special prophetic commission from God with a “free hand” to rain down invectives”

A good observation, John, and Ken is not alone.

BTW John and others, what do you think of Ray Comfort from the Way of the Master speaking at a conference of extreme health and wealth Arminians? These guys are not just some tempered Assembly of God ministers, they are rabid prosperity heretics.

http://www.inspiringexcellence.org/IE08Speakers.htm

13   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 1st, 2008 at 8:01 am

John H,

I still agree with many of Ken’s foundational points, but his lack of mercy, grace and charity, ad homin attacks on those with whom he disagrees, and basic un-Christ like handling of the same have deeply troubled me to the point where I just don’t visit his website any more. I preceive he feels himself exempted from the New Testament scriptures dealing with kindness, mercy, grace, etc., because he believes he has been given a special prophetic commission from God with a “free hand” to rain down invectives so to speak, in these “last days” sort of like on the lines of the Two Witness in Revelation. (Again, just a preception). Obviously, I don’t believe this is the case and so I find it all rather sad.

Very well stated and I agree… though Ken would reel from me saying this I agree with much he states also. In fact many of the point “against” Rick Warren are part of the emerging conversation, yet we are a bit more generous about it. Some of the criticism he states about the emerging church I agree with yet he will not have a civil conversation about anything becuase in his mind he is more “right”-ous than the rest of us.

When I became under his radar, I would say that he had good things to say. I stated he could do greater things than he is now… yet it seemed he has deteriorated even further into his own mega-prophetic-mania.

My main criticism of Ken has been his lack of grace mercy and love for and to those he attacks in his writings. I listen to CARM.org every once in a while and though I disagree with Matt Slick’s conclusions, I rarely feel he is attacking rather he is critiquing and giving reason for his critics with the foundation of love.

That is the difference between a true discernment ministry and the typical ODM.

Ken has just become not only a satire of discernment ministries he mocks discernment and parodies himself.

iggy

14   Neil    
July 1st, 2008 at 9:34 am

What I wish to bring out is how easy, and I’ll argue arrogant as well, it is for people to simply disregard the teaching of someone like myself…

…spurious Spiritual Formation fomented by The Cult Of Guru Richard Foster: – Ken Silva

There is, of course, a lot of discourse in between the “…” and the “…” that I left out. I just wanted to point out why it is so easy for me to disregard the teaching of someone like Ken Silva.

As has been said before, there are times when I agree with Ken, but finding those nuggets of agreement is extremely difficult when you have to wade through sewage like the ad hominem attack on a brother in Christ Richard Foster.

Calling him a Guru, calling him a cult leader, calling him a False Teacher, is not only untrue – it makes it very very easy to disregard the rest of the missive, no matter how many years the author has been delivering them.

Neil

15   Eric Van Dyken    
July 1st, 2008 at 9:43 am

John – I agree wholeheartedly with your comments.

A suggestion to the keepers of CRN.Info and Analysis:

Do you think perhaps that the time has come to slightly change the focus or identity of this blog? Do you really want to continue being the site of “Did you see what Ken did today?!?” There is a lot of talk around here of ODMs “beating a dead horse”. Haven’t you somewhat exhausted this constant railing against a very select few sites, the most prominent of which (especially gauging from your blog name) is Ken’s?

Iggy commented that Ken “mocks discernment and parodies himself”. If that is indeed true, at some point isn’t he best left alone? Is it truly edifying to continue the constant picking, piling on, and preching to the choir? It seems to me that there has developed perhaps a little bit too much glee and a sort of “one-upsmanship” (is that a correct way to say that?) as to who can find and post on the next grievance commited by Ken.

I do enjoy coming to this site and find some of the content and comments here to be profitable. I do find that the hosts of this site (and most commenters) are brothers (and sisters) in Christ from whom I can learn and who have a heart for following our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I am not suggesting that this blog be discontinued. I am suggesting that a change of name, partial change in focus, and a reduction in posts such as this one may be appropriate. Nathan – I am not picking on this post per se. I am commenting on a pattern that I have observed.

Offered in Love by your brother in Christ.

16   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
July 1st, 2008 at 9:53 am

KEN SILVA: “I am very surprised to see you so quick in attempting to instruct someone like me whom Jesus has called as one of His pastor-teachers.”

RA: This is more than a little disturbing. It is cult-like thinking if there ever was any cult-like thinking. The pastor, teacher, leader, elder, governing body, or prophet is ALWAYS above instruction/correction from those who they deem NOT called by the Lord as a pastor-teacher, prophet, spiritual adviser, or whatever. “There is nothing new under the sun,” says Ecclesiastes. Indeed.

Moreover, Ken Silva seems enamored with the idea that he is called of God as a pastor-teacher. Or as he said in one post, he is a messenger of God:

“As a messenger I am responsible to deliver the message as accurately as I can. This is I have done in over 350 articles this year at Apprising Ministries. The messenger is not responsible to “interpret” the message. I am to deliver it and then leave it between the hearer and my Master” (Ken Silva).

It’s seems like Silva clings to his labels as a kind of exaltation to authority, in contrast to how Christ demonstrated servanthood. Calling himself the pastor-teacher seems to give him, at least in his own eyes, divinely imparted substance among the masses of the lowly, uncalled normal people.

Listen to how he uses his pastor-teacher title when, in context, no one really cares or is even asking about it (unlike, for example, if someone were to ask me: “What do you do for a living?” or “What qualifies me to make theological observations?” I would answer because I am a professional apologist).

* “It truly is a sad indictment upon the Emergent movement where supposed Christians are so arrogant as to brazenly disregard what is said by a pastor-teacher called by Christ to instruct them in at least a tangential way.” (Ken Silva)

* Whether anyone ‘takes me serious’ or not the role of a pastor-teacher, ours is to faithfully proclaim unashamedly and boldly whatever God gives us to say” (Ken Silva)

* “Erica, I’m afraid this is a very ignorant thing to say to a pastor-teacher who has been specifically involved in Comparative Religion and apologetics for over 20 years” (Ken Silva)

* “Posted by Ken Silva, pastor-teacher…[on all his posts]” (Ken Silva).

* “As a pastor-teacher sent by Christ I know what I speak of is not my opinion and I know I make a difference in people’s lives” (Ken Silva).

I believe that Ken’s whole “ministry” can be summed up in this little gem from him regarding the Ted Haggard incident: “The American Church is dying and its dying because we are rotten to the core and the sum total of these rotten parts are the Church. For me this has very little to do with Ted haggard himself but rather with Jesus telling Christians in America they had now better be hot or cold because there is more spewing coming.”

I think that Silva has actually, in his own mind, set himself up as the one to do the spewing — i.e., the one called as “pastor-teacher” and “messenger” to bring down judgment on everyone and everything that doesn’t line up with his own personal, subjective take on what God himself is saying to him as pastor-teacher Ken.

Thank God we don’t live in either Medieval Europe or on 1600s New England. Suddenly, it’s not so difficult to see how the horrors of the witch trials and executions occurred, now is it?

BTW, pastor-teacher Ken, you’ve said you’ve been “specifically involved in Comparative Religion and apologetics for over 20 years.”

This sounds impressive, but also sounds a little odd to me because I’ve been in apologetics since 1989, the year I began working at the Christian Research Institute — and I never even heard your name until you got your little website a few years ago.

Until then, I never saw you at any apologetics conferences, never heard your name mentioned by other apologists, never saw any books on apologetics by you, no discernment articles in magazines by you, no tracts produced by you, no references to you whatsoever among the whole network of legitimate apologists and discerners out there. NOTHING of Ken Silva until the Internet gave you a voice.

And here’s a word to you about your claim: “Following my mentor Dr. Walter Martin the dialogue we have had with each other has been quite frank and seasoned in love.”

YOU, SIR, were not mentored by Dr. Walter Martin. I would venture to say that your exposure to Martin to date amounts to little more than:

a) listening to 30-year-old teaching tapes;
b) PERHAPS seeing him on rare occasion speak somewhere (once? twice?); and
c) listening to him on the radio when he did the Bible Answer Man

And these things do not make someone a mentor to you. It only makes you a fan of them. I wish to God you WOULD have been mentored by Martin, or at least SOMEONE balanced and thoughtful, who would have been able to actually teach you what apologetics and discernment is all about.

Sorry for the rant, but you are hurting the sheep, dividing the Body, and slandering/accusing the brethren in the name of God — and it is terribly grievous.

R. Abanes

17   Eugene Roberts    http://eugeneroberts.wordpress.com
July 1st, 2008 at 10:00 am

What are the real concerns with spiritual formation? I have been reading Renovation of the Heart by Dallas Willard and have nothing contradicting Scripture thus far. Instead it is a very helpful book in as far not falling for the trap of works by just changing the behaviour but rather working together with God in the formation of one’s inner man.

I have been trying to read the stuff Ken and other ODM’s write on contemplative prayer and spiritual formation, but getting about halfway through the “guru”, “cult”, “roshi”, “quasi-unversalists”, “mystic”, “neo-pagan” and other name calling makes me nauseous and I stop reading.

Perhaps I am not spiritually mature enough for the meat of name calling, so can someone give me the concerns about renovating our hearts to the image of the risen Christ in milk form please.

18   Eugene Roberts    http://eugeneroberts.wordpress.com
July 1st, 2008 at 10:03 am

Do you think perhaps that the time has come to slightly change the focus or identity of this blog? Do you really want to continue being the site of “Did you see what Ken did today?!?”

Eric has a point here…

19   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
July 1st, 2008 at 10:08 am

What are the real concerns with spiritual formation? I have been reading Renovation of the Heart by Dallas Willard and have nothing contradicting Scripture thus far. Instead it is a very helpful book in as far not falling for the trap of works by just changing the behaviour but rather working together with God in the formation of one’s inner man.

I have been trying to read the stuff Ken and other ODM’s write on contemplative prayer and spiritual formation, but getting about halfway through the “guru”, “cult”, “roshi”, “quasi-unversalists”, “mystic”, “neo-pagan” and other name calling makes me nauseous and I stop reading.

Perhaps I am not spiritually mature enough for the meat of name calling, so can someone give me the concerns about renovating our hearts to the image of the risen Christ in milk form please.

I have a hard time understanding what the real concerns are, also. I think it just stems from a “slippery slope” mentality that thinks if we do anything like the Catholics, it means we will eventually become exactly like them.

The other thing I can think of is that most Fundametalist, Reformed Christians are cessationalists, so they have a real aversion to anything described as mystical or supernatural.

20   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 1st, 2008 at 10:32 am

Richard,

*applauding* Bravo! Textbook ad hominem. :-)

21   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 1st, 2008 at 10:35 am

“cessationalists” Not me.

I just have an aversion to false spirituality like that of the cult growing up around Roshi Richard Foster, which is definitely not of God.

22   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 1st, 2008 at 10:41 am

Richard,

Ken claims he was “mentored” by Walter Marting… a yes, it was through “tapes”… LOL!

This is how he dishonestly puffs himself up to sound more authoritative than he really is. Really it speaks more of his insecurities than anything else.

At first when we came across Ken he never mentioned it was on tapes, it was only after this site busted him he acknowledged it was “tapes” and not in person…

Now, Matt Slick was mentored… if I recall… yet he states that only in passing…

Ken has no formal training or education. He is 50-ish years old who is self taught and by that meaning he read only what he agrees with instead of really looking things.

I admire Walter Martin… and if the standard of “mentor-ship” is as low as Ken’s… I too have been mentored by Walter Martin… I had hours of tapes, many books and listened to hours of the Bible Answer Man… I also was “mentored” by Hank Hanegraaff and Ron Rhoads as well as David Hockings, and John MacArthur… Chuck Swindoll, Chuck Smith, and…

Again, by Ken Silva’s standard of mentor-ship… mostly I listened to tapes and a lot of Christian radio.

I am sure that Walter Martin would rebuke Ken… and not be wanting him to dirty his name by invoking it.

iggy

23   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
July 1st, 2008 at 10:46 am

Ken,
I’ve never seen anyone follow Richard Foster blindly like he’s some cult leader. Quoting someone’s book favorably hardly means you’re blindly following that person.

24   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 1st, 2008 at 10:48 am

Richard Foster… must follow… he has… donuts…. yummmmmmm…. ummmm…. waahh…

25   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
July 1st, 2008 at 10:50 am

EVD & Gene,

I see that we tend to run in cycles here, and I agree that we’ve got to balance things out. The site authors converse quite a bit behind the scenes, and we try to find some balance between digging into specific theological issues (which often get touched off by reading other blogs, ODM and non-ODM, or our own personal studies and meditation).

I’ve been tied down for a few weeks now, getting ready to head off on a vacation/mission trip this week, and I know some of the other authors are at a conference this coming week, as well. We have a number of theological topics we’re looking to delve into later this month, similar to the way we looked at Atonement a few weeks back. Those things take a bit longer, and a number of our posts tend to be reactions to the news of the day (be it ODM or not…)

Blessings,

Chris

26   M.G.    
July 1st, 2008 at 10:55 am

Wait, is Ken Foster really a Roshi in Zen Buddhism?

I had no idea. That can’t be good or honoring to God for a Christian to attain such a status.

27   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
July 1st, 2008 at 10:56 am

KS: *applauding* Bravo! Textbook ad hominem.

RA: Typical misuse of fallacy, appaently unaware of what it actually means. And predictably, did not address:

1. my observation on your use of the pastor-teacher title
(not ad hominem)

2. my assessment of your calling to judge others who you feel need to be spewed
(not ad hominem)

3. my challenge to your claim that you have been active in the field of comparative religion and apologetics for 20 years
(not ad hominem)

4. my challenge to your claim of having been mentored by Walter Martin
(not ad hominem)

The truth hurts. Please verify by documentation your claims, particularly about having been mentored by Walter Martin.

MENTOR – “A wise and trusted counselor or teacher.” “An individual who provides independent support and advice to enable the candidate to realize their full potential and help establish their career.” “The critical role and responsibility assumed by an experienced and wise educator who agrees to help, build a relationship with, and facilitate the professional growth of one or more proteges. Mentors are to be models of effective teaching and of a very visible desire to continue to grow professionally, every day, and throughout the career.” “A trusted counsellor or guide.” “Person who acts as an adviser to a learner, especially used in work-place learning environments. The activity is called mentoring.”

KEN, please explain to us now, before the world, how Walter Martin fulfilled this personal role to you as your mentor. Otherwise, repent of lying and padding your credentials to lend yourself some air of credibility.

R. abanes

RAbanes

28   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 1st, 2008 at 11:00 am

“he read only what he agrees with instead of really looking things.”

Uh-oh, looks like Carlos got some repentin’ to do? How could he know that? Answer: He couldn’t.

Oh M.G., you busted me…not. I have said in numerous places Foster is a “Christian” Roshi, i.e. alleged spiritual master.

Plah-eeze. Foster’s being mastered by spirits and they ain’t the Holy One.

29   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 1st, 2008 at 11:02 am

R.A.: The truth hurts.

Excedrin might help that for ya.

30   John Hughes    
July 1st, 2008 at 11:06 am

Eugene,

We had a HUGE discussion on Foster a few weeks back. I’m not going there again. Perhaps you could do a search in the archives.

31   John Hughes    
July 1st, 2008 at 11:07 am

I was mentored by Charnock but I must admit I fell asleep a few times so I might have missed something.

32   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
July 1st, 2008 at 11:08 am

Funny thing is I am also a pastor/teacher at my church… we have over 100 people and growing. Yet, I take seriously someone who will take time to voice a concern about me, my teaching or ministry.

Iggy, I am concerned at your ODM ’satire’ website. I have told you this repeatedly. I think is is wrong and injurious to the body of Christ. I am personally offended by it. I think it is wrong that you insult Ken Silva’s church on it. Oh yeah, and your pride is seeping through on this comment.. who ever said size was a proof of God’s blessing?

The thing that is frustrating is that Ken wields these titles as some elitist entitlement that he is above reproach, when the scripture states we are held to an even higher standard.

Iggy, you believe that you are above reproach, justifying your slanderous website. You are also held to a higher standard, one in which your false identity will be brought to light. I pray God has mercy. Talk about being a divisive person

Richard,
As one who enjoys your writings, even though I disagree with you on Rick Warren, the PEACE plan, etc, I am sincerely disappointed with your approach towards Ken. I think it is injurious to the body of Christ.

Eric V. says it well. This blog is nothing more than an attack medium towards those people which they disagree with. It is a stench in the nostrils of God, (IMHO) This site has become nothing more than what they claim to hate. It is not the church or Christians, or Christ they are defending, just their own, precious opinions.

33   Chad    http://www.chadholtz.wordpress.com
July 1st, 2008 at 11:12 am

….I can’t help but noticing as I read through this that those who would defend Ken on this and even Ken himself have nothing to say about the actual OP. Why is that?

34   M.G.    
July 1st, 2008 at 11:14 am

Ken,

Friend, not everything is a fight and not everything is a bust. Regardless of what you have written elsewhere, here you used a specific Buddhist title, without clarification. I therefore sought clarification. End of story.

As for using imprecise titles that, at least in one instance led to some confusion, I leave that to you.

35   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
July 1st, 2008 at 11:14 am

Thank you for your opinion, PB – it’s not at all surprising, nor is it all that accurate, either.

36   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 1st, 2008 at 11:16 am

“nor is it all that accurate, either.”

Well, of course not. It is a dissenting opinion from that of CRN.Info. By default it is immediately dismissed as not factual here, we get it. :-)

37   nc    
July 1st, 2008 at 11:17 am

pb,

then advocate for the shutting down of the “stench” of the ODM sites and then this site won’t have any purpose.

help CRN.info help you.

;)

38   Chad    http://www.chadholtz.wordpress.com
July 1st, 2008 at 11:18 am

By my above question what I mean to say is this: If someone were to publish something from my blog like this that demonstrates something about what I have written and concludes something about my intentions or character I would hope to do one of two things:

1. Recognize the truth in it and apologize, thanking a fellow brother or sister in Christ for pointing out a blindspot in my walk.

2. Expound on what I had said in such a way to clarify, so that the conclusion previously drawn might be refuted.

I see none of this. All I see is the person and those who defend him attacking the people for their bringing it up. Where I live that is nothing more than an admission to the truth of the OP.

39   corey    
July 1st, 2008 at 11:20 am

Does Emerging Eddie ring a bell, John???

40   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
July 1st, 2008 at 11:23 am

Chad,

By my above question what I mean to say is this: If someone were to publish something from my blog like this that demonstrates something about what I have written and concludes something about my intentions or character I would hope to do one of two things:
1. Recognize the truth in it and apologize, thanking a fellow brother or sister in Christ for pointing out a blindspot in my walk.
2. Expound on what I had said in such a way to clarify, so that the conclusion previously drawn might be refuted.
I see none of this. All I see is the person and those who defend him attacking the people for their bringing it up. Where I live that is nothing more than an admission to the truth of the OP

I tried doing that several weeks ago. As a result, I got insulted, had my integrity questioned, and had the honor of Carlos aka Iggy aka Itodyaso making an insulting piece about me. So, when a Christian apologizes on this site, the people apologized to use it as a invitation to insult and ridicule. Thats okay, it just make them look bad. Where I live, that is just proof that the OP’s mean nothing when the authors do not live out the grace and love they claim to promote.

41   corey    
July 1st, 2008 at 11:24 am

John…Emerging Eddie…satirical emergent website slandering emergent leaders??? Sound familiar???

42   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
July 1st, 2008 at 11:25 am

pastorboy: I am sincerely disappointed with your approach towards Ken. I think it is injurious to the body of Christ.

RA: I have sought to reason with Ken, appeal to Ken, plead with Ken, correct Ken – to no avail. He is the one who began attacking others in the Body of Christ – not me. Everything I have stated has been a response.

Now, in this thread I call to the forefront several issues regarding Ken and his claims that relate to his place a pastor-teacher, apologist, and discerner suppoeldy mentored by the late Dr. Walter Martin. I have asked very clearly for him to substantiate his claims. I am still waiting for a real answer instead of just sniping, nasty, little barbs.

RAbanes

43   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
July 1st, 2008 at 11:25 am

Corey,

Please note the last date anything was written there. I don’t even know if that site is up any more!

Anyhow, people pointed out to me that it was disengenuous and offensive and would not allow me to do what the intent was because of it…so ,,,, I stopped posting.

Thanks for reminding me though.

44   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 1st, 2008 at 11:25 am

“Where I live that is nothing more than an admission to the truth of the OP.”

Then I would suggest you enter the real world.

45   Tim Reed, Owosso MI    http://churchvoices.com
July 1st, 2008 at 11:26 am

PB,
I suppose you’d advocate what you do, which would be for everyone to tell Ken to stick it and then to publish an article full of lies.

46   corey    
July 1st, 2008 at 11:27 am

Just suggesting that you for a period of time did the exact same thing that you’re accusing Iggy of…

47   Paul C    http://www.themidnightcry.com
July 1st, 2008 at 11:27 am

Eric – I have to say, regarding your comment #15: thank you for your maturity and being a voice of reason. I agree with you wholeheartedly.

48   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 1st, 2008 at 11:28 am

RA: I have sought to reason with Ken, appeal to Ken, plead with Ken, correct Ken – to no avail.

You make this too easy Richard. I have sought to reason with Richard, appeal to Richard, plead with Richard, correct Richard – to no avail. And so have others.

49   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
July 1st, 2008 at 11:30 am

Corey,
Yes I did, and I repented and stopped doing it.

50   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
July 1st, 2008 at 11:32 am

PB,
I suppose you’d advocate what you do, which would be for everyone to tell Ken to stick it and then to publish an article full of lies.

This is what happens when you apologize to these folks, Chad. Months of insults. No forgiveness, receiving of a brother who has admitted his error.

True colors are shining through.

51   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 1st, 2008 at 11:36 am

I knew Dr. Martin. Dr. Martin was a friend of mine. You guys are no Walter Martin! :)

52   Tim Reed, Owosso MI    http://churchvoices.com
July 1st, 2008 at 11:36 am

This is what happens when you apologize to these folks, Chad. Months of insults. No forgiveness, receiving of a brother who has admitted his error.

True colors are shining through.

PB,
As far as I know you never apologized for your lies or for tellign me to stick it. You apologized for suggesting that I wasn’t part of the kingdom, but maintained your lies about what I teach and preach, in fact you even wrote that it represents the whole of my ministry. Additionally you have continued to justified telling me to stick it as “satire” despite the fact that you explicitly wrote that it wasn’t satire. And then you turn around and criticize iggy for employing satire.

53   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 1st, 2008 at 11:39 am

I still believe Ray Comforst particpation at a health and wealth conference is a much more serious issue than Ken’s e-mail post. Scott over at VS is on the trail!

54   Erica Martino    http://joemartino.name/erica
July 1st, 2008 at 11:49 am

Ken,
Help me understand how you think. I have been trying for years now and am failing miserably.
A person can not question you because you are a pastor/teacher called by God with all these credentials………
but you and your friends have blogs set up to tear a part and question other pastor/teachers. So please, show me from scripture where it is ok for you to question whomever you want but you can not be questioned yourself.
I have to be missing something otherwise it seems like you are a hypocrite.

55   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 1st, 2008 at 12:01 pm

Erica – are you on prescription medication? :)

56   Erica Martino    http://joemartino.name/erica
July 1st, 2008 at 12:04 pm

Rick,
Not that I no of…….. Why?

57   Erica Martino    http://joemartino.name/erica
July 1st, 2008 at 12:05 pm

Does allergy meds count? It is not prescribed?;-)

58   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 1st, 2008 at 12:09 pm

I’m just kidding you, Erica. You did make a good point, though.

59   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
July 1st, 2008 at 12:22 pm

I wrote ***Satire at the end of it. I apologize if you did not see it.

60   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
July 1st, 2008 at 12:23 pm

KEN: You make this too easy Richard. I have sought to reason with Richard, appeal to Richard, plead with Richard, correct Richard – to no avail. And so have others.

RA: STILL….no answers from you. Why am I not surprised?

EXPLAIN how you were mentored by Dr. Walter Martin.

EXPLAIN how you’ve been in apologetics/comparative religions for 20 years and I’ve never heard your name mentioned by anyone or seen you appear anywhere in apologetic circles as far back as 1989.

RAbanes

61   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
July 1st, 2008 at 12:26 pm

Ken: I have sought to reason with Richard, appeal to Richard, plead with Richard, correct Richard – to no avail.

RA: lying slander, and bearing false witness does not fall under reasoning, appealing, pleading, or correcting. That might be where you are confused.

RAbanes

62   nc    
July 1st, 2008 at 12:26 pm

“EXPLAIN”…

Your mind is in darkness, non-beloved, un-elect RA.

It wouldn’t do any good…

63   Chad    http://www.chadholtz.wordpress.com
July 1st, 2008 at 12:34 pm

Ken:

You prove my point.

PB:

I am not aware of reading you apologize about anything. If you have, and you got treated badly for a sincere apology, than I am sorry. However, that does not excuse you from ceasing to be apologetic or humble. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

64   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 1st, 2008 at 12:36 pm

“Help me understand how you think.”

Ah, you should know that I can’t do that. I don’t know how to think; just ask my dear brother Richard. :-)

65   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 1st, 2008 at 12:38 pm

Chad,

You prove my point.

Well of course I did. You’ll see what you want to see anyway so no matter what was said the result would be the same. Have at it.

66   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 1st, 2008 at 12:39 pm

you’ve been in apologetics/comparative religions for 20 years and I’ve never heard your name mentioned by anyone

Well, there you go. Obviously no one could be doing something unless Richard Abanes has heard of him. Yeah, it’s my ego that’s inflated.

67   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 1st, 2008 at 12:41 pm

RA: lying slander, and bearing false witness does not fall under reasoning, appealing, pleading, or correcting. That might be where you are confused.

Unless we’re using said tactics on one of them there evil ODMs. :-)

68   Erica Martino    http://joemartino.name/erica
July 1st, 2008 at 12:41 pm

“EXPLAIN how you’ve been in apologetics/comparative religions for 20 years and I’ve never heard your name mentioned by anyone or seen you appear anywhere in apologetic circles as far back as 1989.”
Ken that is a very good question. I would love to know the answer to it myself.

69   Timothy Bell    http://catmandudespeaks.blogspot.com/
July 1st, 2008 at 12:43 pm

Let me first state that I do not agree with everything Ken writes. I’m not a dispensationalist nor do I believe God has any further dealings with the (Khazarian) Jews other than that they may be saved the same way as Gentiles do, through Jesus Christ.

That said, I’ll state that I believe that Ken’s meaning behind his words in the noted article was lost. He said, “I do not think any pastor-teacher is above reproach.” I believe everyone here would agree with him on that.

But Ken doesn’t necessarily negate that statement by saying ” I am very surprised to see you so quick in attempting to instruct someone like me whom Jesus has called as one of His pastor-teachers.” He was responding to a not-quite-innocent statement, “I was very suprised to see your [Ken's] negative views on Christian meditation in the article…….I am confused to see Christain views such as these as they read as being very narrow minded and judgemental.”

Ken was reponding, I believe, to the LACK OF RESPECT shown by the writer to Ken’s position as a pastor and writer as if Ken had not done any studying and scholarship in that area. Hence, later Ken asks, “Is this something you’d also do with someone, e.g. in the legal profession?”

So no one should be above reproach BUT show some respect to the person’s position/ experience/ scholarship/ etc., you get the idea. So I do not believe Ken is contradicting himself in those two phrases.

You can discuss Ken’s “supposed” scholarship and how he himself show or doesn’t show respect to others. But “Disgruntled with AM”, the writer to Ken, didn’t respectfully address Ken’s points in the Christian Meditation article and why he disagrees with them.

70   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
July 1st, 2008 at 12:54 pm

TB,
Surely, ye jest…

Ken’s whole response was basically in the vein of “who dares to challenge the great and wonderful Oz?” I mean, I’ve never in my whole life seen anyone call themself a “pastor-teacher”, and I’ve never seen anyone make such a big deal out of titles.

In the academic world, people’s ideas are challenged all the time. Challenging someone’s idea isn’t disrespecting them, it’s just a way of assuring the truth comes out. If someone’s reaction to being questioned is, “who are you to ask me”, it’s a signal to me they haven’t done their homework.

71   Neil    
July 1st, 2008 at 12:57 pm

I just have an aversion to false spirituality like that of the cult growing up around Roshi Richard Foster, which is definitely not of God. – Ken

I have for the most part stopped reading the lengthy posts by Richard Abanes due to… well, their length, but also their tendency to become too vitriolic and escalating .

Comments like this, however are just un-Christ-like… Ken, please do not defame a brother in Christ by claiming his ministry is not of God, nor by giving him a title used by another religion.

It is not helpful.

It is not honest.

It is not befitting a minister of the Gospel.

Neil

72   Erica Martino    http://joemartino.name/erica
July 1st, 2008 at 1:00 pm

Phil,
That is an excellent point!! Never thought of it that way but you right.

73   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 1st, 2008 at 1:00 pm

Phil’s response to say I was responding basically in the vein of “who dares to challenge the great and wonderful Oz?” is basically in the vein of “I know what someone’s motivation is and therefore am next in line for the job of the Holy Spirit aka Vicar of Christ–Who even searches the Mind of God–after Pope Benedict is through with it.”

Guess what, Tim was right (and I ain’t dispensationalist either) and Phil actually has zero idea what was in my heart. Sorry about that chief. :-)

74   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 1st, 2008 at 1:01 pm

In his opening remarks, Ken presents that benign e-mail as an example of “arrogance” and “foolish pride” because he asked a question. The whole thing is a Kenism and it isn’t isolated.

Let’s move to Ray Comfort who actuall did something that was compromise in his world – and mine!

75   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 1st, 2008 at 1:02 pm

Ken, please do not defame a brother in Christ

Thanks for the concern but as far as I know I haven’t defamed any brother in Christ.

76   Joe C    http://www.joe4gzus.blogspot.com
July 1st, 2008 at 1:06 pm

What did Comfort do? Is there a news article we can discuss? Sorry if you listed it before, I know you’ve been trying to start that conversation for a while now..lol

77   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
July 1st, 2008 at 1:08 pm

Rick,

I will try and contact Ray and ask him.

I am making the assumption that he is speaking on his favorite subject, and that would be Evangelism. I would suspect that he would take advantage of this conference by doing a giant open-air meeting and presenting the Gospel to all in attendance.

That would be my guess.

78   Neil    
July 1st, 2008 at 1:08 pm

This is what happens when you apologize to these folks, Chad. Months of insults. No forgiveness, receiving of a brother who has admitted his error. – PB

This cuts both ways. I’ve defended Amy and what I got for it was a “But it’s not enough…”

I tried to engage you on the issue of Imago Dei and what I got was a “You think the Bible is as inspired as Mein Kampf…” – and no explanation why…

I even defend Ken and ask him not to belittle and disparage a brother in Christ… no response.

I agree PB that some who comment on this site have the habit of escalation – but you no better than to say that this site will not acknowledge an apology, or use it as ammunition… shoot when Ingrid posted her retraction we gave her all the kudos she deserved.

79   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
July 1st, 2008 at 1:10 pm

Neil,

You got the wrong guy on Imago Dei

80   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
July 1st, 2008 at 1:15 pm

Phil’s response to say I was responding basically in the vein of “who dares to challenge the great and wonderful Oz?” is basically in the vein of “I know what someone’s motivation is and therefore am next in line for the job of the Holy Spirit aka Vicar of Christ–Who even searches the Mind of God–after Pope Benedict is through with it.”

Guess what, Tim was right (and I ain’t dispensationalist either) and Phil actually has zero idea what was in my heart. Sorry about that chief.

I’m not claiming to know what’s in your heart, Ken, other than the fact that what’s in your heart is revealed by what you write. I’m just responding to your own words. In your response you said:

So let me put it another way: I am very surprised to see you so quick in attempting to instruct someone like me whom Jesus has called as one of His pastor-teachers.

It sure sounds like you’re saying your position makes you unassailable. Who’s the one who wants to be Pope, exactly?

81   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 1st, 2008 at 1:18 pm

John – I would assume that as well, but let’s be honest, that wouldn’t hold water from the other side. Those guys are way out in left – WAY OUT! I think the only one I’ve ever heard give the gospel ,is Rod Parsley and he’s in left field as well.

To be consistent, we must speak out against this compromise.

82   corey    
July 1st, 2008 at 1:23 pm

There certainly was no assumption of gospel sharing given to Rob Bell or Doug Pagitt at the Seeds of Compassion event.

83   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
July 1st, 2008 at 1:25 pm

Corey,

Sure there was. And it was a massive disappointment.

84   corey    
July 1st, 2008 at 1:28 pm

From your site:
“All together now, our friend Doug Pagitt and his friend Rob Bell, are going to get together with guys like Dave Matthews (who is very emergent in that he commits to no religious faith) and the Dalai Lama (who is called his holiness by those who believe that a man can be holy) for the Seeds of Compassion and take part in an ‘interspiritual dialogue’ with people who believe that they can attain holiness and wholeness outside of Jesus Christ. Whoops-I guess I’m not surprised. That is exactly what they preach! I guess I have wasted my time. ”

Where’s the assumption of gospel preaching there??

85   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 1st, 2008 at 1:28 pm

John – The Seeds conference and the one Comfort will speak at were very different, however the principal is the same. The TV promo for the event talks about getting rich. These people use Jesus as a cash cow.

Blasphemy.

86   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 1st, 2008 at 1:29 pm

And Verum Serum gets the prize!

http://www.verumserum.com/?p=2013

87   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 1st, 2008 at 1:55 pm

I’m not claiming to know what’s in your heart, Ken, other than the fact that what’s in your heart is revealed by what you write. I’m just responding to your own words.

This is ok by me. You are certainly free to assume you know “the fact that what’s in [someone's] heart is revealed by what [they] write.

So plug up all the whining then when one like me uses this exact same methodology in “responding to [their] own words.” What sauce for the ADM is also sauce for the ODM.

88   Neil    
July 1st, 2008 at 2:25 pm

Neil,

You got the wrong guy on Imago Dei – PB

Sorry ’bout that… I posted then left my office, THEN relaized my error. I was hoping to make the fix before it was noticed.

That comment should have been directed at Chris P.

Neil

89   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
July 1st, 2008 at 2:26 pm

“All together now, our friend Doug Pagitt and his friend Rob Bell, are going to get together with guys like Dave Matthews (who is very emergent in that he commits to no religious faith) and the Dalai Lama (who is called his holiness by those who believe that a man can be holy) for the Seeds of Compassion and take part in an ‘interspiritual dialogue’ with people who believe that they can attain holiness and wholeness outside of Jesus Christ. Whoops-I guess I’m not surprised. That is exactly what they preach! I guess I have wasted my time. ”

Ray Comfort has a 36 year history of consistently presenting a biblical gospel everywhere that he goes.

Rob Bell and Doug Pagitt were invited to Seeds of Compassion because the promoters KNEW they would not present a Biblical Gospel where Jesus was presented as THE way THE truth and THE life, based upon their VERY well documented history.

See the difference?

And I was proved right, by the way.

90   corey    
July 1st, 2008 at 2:31 pm

whatever…your only consistency is your inconsistency

91   Tim Reed, Owosso MI    http://churchvoices.com
July 1st, 2008 at 2:33 pm

And I was proved right, by the way.

Transation: Ray Comfort is on our team, Bell and Pagitt aren’t.

92   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 1st, 2008 at 2:35 pm

PB – I see the difference, but I also see two compromises. Billy Graham has a track record for many years but that hasn’t given him a free pass when he compromises.

Comfort’s participation in this conference is astounding. This isn’t some conservative Assembly of God church, these guys are the who’s who of the prosperity heresy and he should be called on it.

93   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
July 1st, 2008 at 2:38 pm

Rick,

so call him on it!

http://www.wayofthemaster.com
http://www.livingwaters.com
www. wayofthemasterradio.com

94   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 1st, 2008 at 2:42 pm

PB – I already have, but I will write a post on JDL on the partiality of the ODMs when they refuse to take a stand on someone from their own camp as Ken has just told me he doesn’t know or care about Comfort and yet he has posted Friel’s stuff occasionally.

I really do not care what Comfort does, its the hypocrisy of the discernemnt world. I will now call them the Ostrich Discernment Ministries.

95   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
July 1st, 2008 at 2:52 pm

Corey,

It is disengenuous for you to demand that I or anyone else believe that Pagitt or Bell are going to change their stripes for one conference. They are going to talk about what they talk about consistently. And they did not disappoint.

I challenge anybody to show where Ray has EVER changed his message wherever he went.

Rick:

I called the ministry, and their response was the same as mine: Can you imagine a better place to present a Biblical Gospel than in a place where it won’t otherwise be presented? That what Ray is doing there. If he went to the Seeds of Compassion, the same message he presents every time to every audience.

96   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
July 1st, 2008 at 2:55 pm

Rick,

It makes as much sense for Ray to go there as what he does every week at Huntington Beach: It is the place on that day where he knows where there will be thousands of people who have a wrong understanding of God. It is the same as going to a PRIDE march, or the same as the real Christians who showed up to the seeds of compassion, to open air preach. (To show how compassionate they are to the Bible message, those preachers were removed!)

97   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 1st, 2008 at 2:56 pm

Of course thatis what they will say. That is what Rick Warren claims he is doing when he speaks with Catholics. Where is the difference?

This is a blatant compromise and we will see if Comfort addresses the errors in the prosperity gospel. That si waht we would say about Warren if he was speaking. I see definite partiality. I will write about it soon. You’ll love it.

98   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
July 1st, 2008 at 3:00 pm

Rick Warren does not say to Catholics that they are caught in a false system. I am sure Ray will not address the prosperity gospel.

I am sure that Ray will address sin, judgement, the wrath of God, the need for justification found in Christ alone

The difference is that Rick would not see a need for a Catholic to be saved. He believes they are Christians already. Huge difference.

And of course, I will love what you write, I always do. I do not always agree, but I appreciate the effort.

99   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 1st, 2008 at 3:00 pm

“they refuse to take a stand on someone from their own camp as Ken has just told me he doesn’t know or care about Comfort and yet he has posted Friel’s stuff occasionally.”

Friel = Comfort?! I’m not that big fan of Friel either. And as we often say of dear brother Rob: Because I recommend something by someone does not mean I endorse all that the someone says and does. And last time I checked Comfort was a different guy than Friel.

Time to grow up Rick.

100   Dan Goldfinch    http://www.itodyaso.wordpress.com
July 1st, 2008 at 3:05 pm

Pastorboy,

You wrote:

Iggy, I am concerned at your ODM ’satire’ website. I have told you this repeatedly. I think is is wrong and injurious to the body of Christ. I am personally offended by it. I think it is wrong that you insult Ken Silva’s church on it. Oh yeah, and your pride is seeping through on this comment.. who ever said size was a proof of God’s blessing?

Why are you concerned with this blog? Don’t you know that we are on your side? We have learned only from the best of the best ODM’s in the industry. I’m actually a little hurt that you think this about the OD Mafia. We are the real deal!

BTW, did you see that great piece about the risky moves of Michael Horton? He’s one we need to watch out for! He’s dangerous.

sincerely, and a little hurt,
struggle4laodicea

101   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
July 1st, 2008 at 3:37 pm

Ken, still counting the minutes ….. no answer:

EXPLAIN how you were mentored by Dr. Walter Martin.

EXPLAIN how you’ve been in apologetics/comparative religions for 20 years and I’ve never heard your name mentioned by anyone or seen you appear anywhere in apologetic circles as far back as 1989.

RAbanes

102   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 1st, 2008 at 3:51 pm

EXPLAIN how you were mentored by Dr. Walter Martin.

Asked and answered. Already dealt with in a few of my articles.

EXPLAIN how you’ve been in apologetics/comparative religions for 20 years and I’ve never heard your name mentioned by anyone or seen you appear anywhere in apologetic circles as far back as 1989.

Meaningless question. Assumes that for one to actually have been doing work in apologetics/Comparative Religion Richard Abanes must have heard of them.

Good night Richard.

103   Joe C    http://www.joe4gzus.blogspot.com
July 1st, 2008 at 4:21 pm

It’s okay guys, concerning everything, (and we should really take this seriously…), God knows the truth of all matters. That’s pretty scary, considering how often we fool ourselves in to thinking otherwise.

104   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
July 1st, 2008 at 4:26 pm

KEN: Meaningless question. Assumes that for one to actually have been doing work in apologetics/Comparative Religion Richard Abanes must have heard of them.

RA: A non-answer — yet again. And yes, i WOULD have heard of you because unlike you, I really was in comparative religion and apologetics. And I have the documentation, witnesses, and credentials to prove it. Where are yours? Answer: You have no such evidence to back your claim.

R. Abanes

105   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
July 1st, 2008 at 4:35 pm

Richard Abanes:

Where do you get such credentials? Is it like a drivers license? Is it the AAA (American Association of Apologetics)? Do you need continuing education to keep your credentials? Is it required that you take classes from other accredited apologists? Do you have a mailing list?

I really want to know how to be part of the club. Is it enough that I study to show myself approved, or is there a educational requirement where I have to go to an accredited school and sit under teachers in the classroom? Or can I use tapes, read books, and learn for myself.

I really need to know. I want to be an apologist.

106   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
July 1st, 2008 at 4:40 pm

Where do you get such credentials?

Probably the same place you went for your evangelism training!

107   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 1st, 2008 at 4:46 pm

Richard,

Ready. Follow along now: I have never claimed, unlike you, to have been of note in said fields.

The fact is: I have been involved in the fields of apologetices, Comparative Religion and evangelizing non-Christian cults for 21 years.

Whether you personally have heard of me means nothing toward the truth of that fact. That you have no respect for me means nothing toward the truth that fact. Can you see the progression now Richard?

In simpler terms: I couldn’t care less what you think of me either. The fact is I really don’t respect you as I’ve come to know you through your initial attack on me in 2005, k. So get over it.

108   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
July 1st, 2008 at 4:52 pm

pastorboy: Where do you get such credentials? Is it like a drivers license? Is it the AAA (American Association of Apologetics)? Do you need continuing education to keep your credentials? Is it required that you take classes from other accredited apologists? Do you have a mailing list? I really want to know how to be part of the club. Is it enough that I study to show myself approved, or is there a educational requirement where I have to go to an accredited school and sit under teachers in the classroom? Or can I use tapes, read books, and learn for myself. I really need to know. I want to be an apologist.

RA: You do not ask any serious questions. But I can safely say that you are not an apologist, nor do you seem to really care to be one. Although I could “mentor” you as I was mentored. Hey, that’s one way right there. Mentoring is great. (No, Ken Silva, contrary to your claims, mentoring doesn’t mean listening to some dust-covered Walter Martin tapes).

And here we have part of the ODM problem. Could you imagine the uproar if people just went around calling themselves a doctor and trying to do an operation without learning appropriately? Or what about the hue and cry that would go up if anyone wanting practice law just put up a sign and said: “Now a-takin’ on cases for the courts.”

Wait!! That’s illegal. Hmmmm.

Or imagine putting a person with NO experience in mission field or knowledge about missionary work in charge of some mission trip to a hostile country, when they’ve never even shared their faith with beach transients or organized a picnic! Can anyone say the word: disaster?

This is all pretty much how I see all of these ODMs and their self-exalted titles of “watchman” and “discerner” that they love so much. It’s sad. And it’s corrupted apologetics. It’s going to kill true apologetics in the church if things don’t change, imho.

The ODMS are function not as apologists, but as heresy-hunters who have a few weapons they’ve gleaned from listening to some old Martin tapes or getting a hold of some jack Chick tracts.

But like children with guns, all they can do is irresponsibly point and shoot and hurt people because they have not been trained or matured to the point of someone qualified to hold a gun. Sadly, the world gave them their very own big bazooka — the Internet.

RAbanes

109   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 1st, 2008 at 5:00 pm

It truly is amazing that Richard would hand me this one:

Could you imagine the uproar if people just went around calling themselves a doctor and trying to do an operation without learning appropriately? Or what about the hue and cry that would go up if anyone wanting practice law just put up a sign and said: “Now a-takin’ on cases for the courts.”

Yeah, and they might just assume “with NO experience” that they can tell pastors and teachers they are wrong on issues…O, I dunno…say like in the very email used as the basis for this CRN.Info hatchet piece in the first place. ;-)

110   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
July 1st, 2008 at 5:04 pm

I really need to know. I want to be an apologist.

Yeah, we’ve noticed. I’d settle for you acting like a Christian.

111   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 1st, 2008 at 5:07 pm

“I’d settle for you acting like a Christian.”

Good idea Joe. Ready to give it a try soon?

112   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
July 1st, 2008 at 5:08 pm

Chad,

See 108 for another way that the christians on this site treat someone who has apologized and repented.

113   Joe C    http://www.joe4gzus.blogspot.com
July 1st, 2008 at 5:13 pm

“you do it too!!” isn’t a valid argument for ignoring your own sins and the sins of those ‘on your team’. Everyone’s still gotta deal with their own problems instead of pointing to someone else as their excuse. Simple…wow.

114   Eugene Roberts    http://eugeneroberts.wordpress.com
July 1st, 2008 at 5:19 pm

This thread has degenerated into personal attacks. Again….

I’ve got a song I ain’t got no melody
How’m I gonna sing it with my friends
I’ve got a song I ain’t got no melody
How’m I gonna sing it with my friends

Will it go round in circles
Will it fly high like a bird up in the sky
Will it go round in circles
Will it fly high like a bird up in the sky

I’ve got a lil’ story ain’t got no moral
Let the bad guy win every once in a while
I’ve got a lil’ story ain’t got no moral
Let the bad guy win every once in a while

Will it go round in circles
Will it fly high like a bird up in the sky
Will it go round in circles
Will it fly high like a bird up in the sky

- Billy Preston and Bruce Fisher

115   Joe C    http://www.joe4gzus.blogspot.com
July 1st, 2008 at 5:21 pm

It’s true though. We ignore our sins by pointing to others who do the same thing, as if that changes anything about ourselves. We should all just drop it and pray.

116   John Hughes    
July 1st, 2008 at 5:22 pm

Sadly, the world gave them their very own big bazooka — the Internet.

Excuse me, but Al Gore gave us the internet thank you.

117   struggle4laodicea    http://www.itodyaso.wordpress.com
July 1st, 2008 at 5:25 pm

Heretics,

I suppose that to an extent all of us have been ‘trained’ apologists since at least our baptism (or for you heretics since the hound of heaven hunted you down and converted you against your will or since you were confirmed or catechized or (INSERT FAVORITE TRADITION OF CONVERSTION EXPERIENCE HERE) ).

After all the Bible does say that all of us should be prepared to give an answer for the hope we have which means at least, as I take it, that we should be living in such a way that people actually ask us questions about our hope. In other words, they strike up conversations with us!

So my credentials, for apologetics and for Online Discernmentalism, are my faith, my baptism, my KJV, and my ability to point out the errors of all those who are so clearly wrong about important theological matters such as apologetics, purpose-drivel, and iggy.

struggle4laodicea

ps–viva l’iggy!

118   Eugene Roberts    http://eugeneroberts.wordpress.com
July 1st, 2008 at 5:27 pm

We ignore our sins by pointing to others who do the same thing, as if that changes anything about ourselves. We should all just drop it and pray.

Well said.

I really hope now unsaved person reads this thread. We’ll be the mockery of the internet. Disciples of Christ acting like the worst of the world!

119   John Hughes    
July 1st, 2008 at 5:27 pm

And here we have part of the ODM problem. Could you imagine the uproar if people just went around calling themselves a doctor and trying to do an operation without learning appropriately? Or what about the hue and cry that would go up if anyone wanting practice law just put up a sign and said: “Now a-takin’ on cases for the courts.”

I have an MBA. Does that count?

120   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
July 1st, 2008 at 5:39 pm

JH: I have an MBA. Does that count?

RA: Too bad you really don’t care.

RAbanes

121   Chad    http://www.chadholtz.wordpress.com
July 1st, 2008 at 5:43 pm

PB-
This has degenerated into nothing more than a session of who can show someone else up. The acticle in question isn’t even being discussed. What is said at this point on either side is pointless, IMHO.

122   Chad    http://www.chadholtz.wordpress.com
July 1st, 2008 at 5:44 pm

I forgot how nice it was to be without internet for a few weeks *sigh*

123   Eugene Roberts    http://eugeneroberts.wordpress.com
July 1st, 2008 at 5:48 pm

I would love to be Surprised by Hope, so I’ll retreat to Blooming in Bullock now.
Bet I’ll find a civilised discussion there.

124   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 1st, 2008 at 7:19 pm

PB,

See 108 for another way that the christians on this site treat someone who has apologized and repented.

You can start by apologizing to Joe…

Really an apologist should have acknowledgment by his peers. As Richard points out, in the big circle, Ken was not even a blip on the radar, yet Ken asserts he has been an apologist for 21 years.

He may have defended or answered for his faith and even had done some research, but to say Ken is an “apologist” seems to miss that on a small level all Christians are.

What is the issue is that Ken Silva is trying to represent himself as one who is on level or higher than someone who has academic qualifications. If it is a calling or gift from God, that should be enough to satisfy Ken himself and he should not need to state how he was “mentored” or is so gifted as to not be questioned… in fact to say that to question him is to be arrogant!

Do you agree that to question Ken Silva is to be arrogant?

iggy

125   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 1st, 2008 at 7:40 pm

Ken,

Friel = Comfort?! I’m not that big fan of Friel either. And as we often say of dear brother Rob: Because I recommend something by someone does not mean I endorse all that the someone says and does. And last time I checked Comfort was a different guy than Friel.

Then why don’t you state when someone you have sited is doing something wrong.

It seems you are a people user and not a people lover. You only take from those that benefits you and your position and never take a real stand against what you see as sin.

You use Tozer, then state you do not agree with all he says, yet never condemn him as you do Richard Foster or others who promoted the Christian Mystics. You condemn Richard Abanes for calling you in your fluffing your resume’ yet still give him no answer as to him… or apologize for stating you tend toward over exaggeration.

Well, there you go. Obviously no one could be doing something unless Richard Abanes has heard of him. Yeah, it’s my ego that’s inflated.

Yes, it is your ego that is inflated. His point is you are stating all this like you have been on level with those who are known. He is right Ken, no one knew about you until the Internet.. and still most have not even heard of you. At best you can say in the last 3-5 years I have done this or that and have always been in the practice of such and such for 21 years.

What amazes me is that by your standard I surpass you…

I have been an apolgist 27 years.
I have studied in comparative religions for 25 years. ( I have taken college courses on this.)
I have been evangalizing from non christian cults for 25 years.

So, from your standard I am much more experienced than you are.

Yet, I would not state I am an authority on any of these though I believe I seem to have equal or more knowledge than you on most of these things. I also don’t boast about any of this as you do or address others as arrogant for questioning me.

iggy

126   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
July 1st, 2008 at 8:21 pm

PB –

I’ve been out most of the day, but coming back and reading these threads, I think I’m on pretty safe ground to say that your break from commenting here has probably not been long enough. I’ve been rather pleased the past couple of weeks at the general tenor here (even from Ken, for the most part, though I could do without him and RA going at each other), even amidst a good deal of disagreement on the topics being discussed.

When you keep coming around to accuse and whine about “you become what you hate” and displaying your utter lack of nuance (both giving and taking) for the world to see.

I think a longer break is in order, as things were doing quite well without you (though I believe that Paul C, JH, Ken and others have probably given fair representation to your POV).

Bottom line, dude, is the same thing I said to Evan last week, in love for him and the rest of the readers here – fix your attitude or just go away.

Evan listened, but will you?

127   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
July 1st, 2008 at 8:24 pm

Iggy (or Jerry or whoever) – can y’all dial it back a little bit as well, particularly with the alternate personalities?

Maybe I’m just touchy with holding down the home front alone the past week, but there are some side conversations that really need to be taken to email, or at least ratcheted down…

128   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 1st, 2008 at 8:46 pm

Chris L.,

“I could do without [Ken] and RA going at each other…”

Me too. :-)

129   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 1st, 2008 at 8:53 pm

Chris L,

I haven’t used any alternate personalities in this thread. So i am not sure what you are referring to.

As far as this thread I think I have been very much on point with the topic.

I try not to use the “alternate personalities” thing that much unless it seems appropriate.

If you think that I still need to take something to personal email… let me state it this way… I have tried that with Ken before and it does not happen. He shuts it down and gives no answer… he seems more open here than in private.

iggy

130   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
July 1st, 2008 at 8:56 pm

Now Ken,
That hurt me deeply. Having a guy like you that looks so much like what Jesus calls us to look like saying I’m not a Christian. Pained me right to the heart.

131   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 1st, 2008 at 9:07 pm

Yeah Joe, I’m sure it did. And I’m a disciple of the Dalai Lama.

132   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
July 1st, 2008 at 9:20 pm

Igs – It was “Struggle” linked to your itodyaso site, and I figured out (now) that it’s not you… Sorry, but that’s one reason I’d rather folks just stick to their own identities here…

133   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
July 1st, 2008 at 9:24 pm

And I’m a disciple of the Dalai Lama.

No doubt the bald head is why you keep your picture so tightly held?

134   Joe C    http://www.joe4gzus.blogspot.com
July 1st, 2008 at 9:26 pm

What is this, the third grade? lol come on…

135   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
July 1st, 2008 at 9:28 pm

THE TRUTH ABOUT KEN SILVA’S
CLAIM TO HAVE BEEN IN
COMPARATIVE RELIGION/APOLOGETICS
FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS.

To All,

I wanted to give Ken a chance to speak the truth, repent of lying, and go forward. But he has refused to do so. Now, it’s time to tell the truth — sadly, it will be me telling the truth about Ken.

On his website, Ken Silva claims (as I posted above in July 1st, 2008 at 9:53 am): “Erica, I’m afraid this is a very ignorant thing to say to a pastor-teacher who has been specifically involved in Comparative Religion and apologetics for over 20 years” (Ken Silva, AN MHBC MEMBER DEFENDS ROB BELL *UPDATE*)

So we here have pastor-teacher Ken Silva being in “Comparative Religion and apologetics for over 20 years.” Sounds impressive, but as I also mentioned in this same post above, it “also sounds a little odd to me because I’ve been in apologetics since 1989, the year I began working at the Christian Research Institute — and I never even heard your name until you got your little website a few years ago.”

Well, here is the truth from Ken Silva’s own lips — the truth that he unfortuantely uttered on live, on national radio, apparently not thinking that anyone would be paying attention to him. And THAT is one of the problem with lies — they eventually catch up to you.

Ken explained on the Mike Corley program EXACTLY how, and more importantly WHEN, he got into apologetics/discernment. And it was a scant few years ago. He stated to Mike Corley:

“I had no interest WHATEVER [in discernment/apologetics]. . . . The way — I’ve said it before — I got into this ministry [i.e., discernment/apologetics], was we started a little thing that was going to be an outreach where I would do apologetics and counter-cult work in the local area. A month later, a guy buys a website for us. And there we go. And that’s what got me into this.” (hear audio recording here).

According to WHOIS at http://www.internic.net, the website apprising.org was created “On:23-Aug-2005 00:39:37″ and registered to:

Registrant Name:Ken Silva
Registrant Organization:Apprising Ministries
Registrant Street1:P.O. Box 340

So, per Ken’s own words, his involvement in discernment/apologetics — what “GOT ME INTO THIS” started just 1 month prior to the above date that the website was created — i.e., c. July, 2005. And before that, as he also stated (although the sentence is broken, the meaning is clear), he “had no interest WHATEVER [in discernment/apologetics].”

This explains to me why I never heard of Ken before 2005 in ANY apologetic circles, or among ANY of the people in the counter-cult ministry community, which I have indeed been in since 1989.

Pastor-Teacher Silva — repent. Sorry, I gave you a chance.

R. Abanes

136   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
July 1st, 2008 at 9:42 pm

Joe C,
I thought the bald head comment was really funny.

137   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 1st, 2008 at 9:45 pm

Chris L,

Igs – It was “Struggle” linked to your itodyaso site, and I figured out (now) that it’s not you… Sorry, but that’s one reason I’d rather folks just stick to their own identities here…

No problem… I will try to be more conscientious of this.

Thanks for letting me know

iggy

138   Joe C    http://www.joe4gzus.blogspot.com
July 1st, 2008 at 9:57 pm

Joe,

I know man, I know, but sometimes people don’t take things that way, and may actually end up just using it as a weapon to discredit you in their eyes and invalidate any valid points you might make to them. Don’t give people an excuse to harden their hearts, you know? Don’t let someone get to the point of sinning by ‘forcing’ them to say “well…you’re no better than me! neeener neeener!”. You know what I mean?

As for my third grader statement, I speak in jest. Just meaning that we should be mature. Perhaps I should take heed my own words, huh?

Joe

139   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 1st, 2008 at 10:13 pm

Richard,

Have you thought of getting some therapy concerning your obsession? :-)

140   Aaron    
July 2nd, 2008 at 1:17 am

Richard,

Have you thought of getting some therapy concerning your obsession? :-)

Ken,

Have you ever thought about simply admitting what you said was wrong or at least further explaining in detail what you meant instead of popping out a quick one-liner and running away?

-Aaron

141   Aaron    
July 2nd, 2008 at 1:35 am

bah, didn’t do the box thing right. I’ll figure out next time.

142   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 2nd, 2008 at 1:45 am

Aaron,

Ken can’t. It is like a person I know with a personality disorder that is so self focused they cannot see fault in themselves at all. Ken is obessesed with “being right” all the time and cannot or is unable to humbley give an answer.

It seems that though he tells RA to get help, it is Ken that needs the real help.

iggy

143   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 2nd, 2008 at 4:24 am

I do believe the personal attacks as it pertains to resume embellishments have become unhelpful. In some way the point has been made and is now without any redemptive purpose.

As it concerns certain narcissistic statements, the admonition is to avoid it ourselves.

144   Jerry Hillyer    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
July 2nd, 2008 at 7:16 am

Chris L.,

I’ll let Struggle know that this is a serious blog.

jerry

145   Neil    
July 2nd, 2008 at 8:43 am

Chad,

See 108 for another way that the christians on this site treat someone who has apologized and repented. – PB

PB-

This has degenerated into nothing more than a session of who can show someone else up. The acticle in question isn’t even being discussed. What is said at this point on either side is pointless, IMHO. – Chad

Since we have a policy of not filtering comments, this is what often happens.

146   Neil    
July 2nd, 2008 at 8:44 am

Chris L.,

I agree about the alter-egos. I suggest an out-right ban on snarkiness through alternative comment names.

Neil

147   Neil    
July 2nd, 2008 at 8:46 am

Actually,

I would like to see a ban on all person swipes… can we stick to the theological and methodological issues only?

Neil

148   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
July 2nd, 2008 at 8:57 am

KEN: Have you thought of getting some therapy concerning your obsession?

RA: Still no answer. Still no remorse. Still no repentance. The longer you continue in denial and refuse to just say, “okay, okay, okay, sorry, I messed up” — the worse it is going to be. Repentance and confession is the first step, Ken. Don’t go down the wrong wrong. You’re being given a chance here. Humble yourself.

When did you get into apologetics/comparative religions, Ken? Twenty years ago? July 2005? Was Walter Martin your mentor? Or did you just listen to a few tapes?

And if I have any obsessions at all, they are justice, honesty, integrity, accuracy, mercy, forgiveness, caution, and TRUTH — especially truth.

Truth, Ken, that’s what this is about truth. And you, for your sake, need to start telling it — not only about yourself, but about others. This is not some kind of game that you seem to think it is; not some juvenile testosterone-based kind of one-upmanship-let’s-just-think-of-a-nasty-thing-to-say game.

R. Abanes

P.S. Erica of July 1st, 2008 at 12:41 pm post, you have your answer about when Ken got into comparative religion/apologetics.

149   Neil    
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:02 am

Richard,

I think you have made your point.

Neil

150   Nathanael    http://www.borrowedbreath.com/
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:04 am

Hear! Hear!

151   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:07 am

For clarification —

I do not consider it an attack to challenge a piece of information given as a fact by another individual, especially with regard to their personal ministerial qualifications and background. These are basic to establishing the reliability of an individual.

Consequently, I have asked Ken Silva to please answer my questions about his alleged mentoring under Walter Martin, and his assertion to have been in comparative religion/apologetics for 20 years.

Any comments I have made that moderators of this blog consider to have been personal attacks against Ken, I apologize for — and will try to watch myself in the future.

Moderators, please notify me by email what comments of mine were against blog policy, or contrary to the productive nature of the thread so that I might understand more clearly your limits and interpretations.

This post, BTW, should get us back on track when it comes to being given correction per the initial topic of the OP — no matter who we are.

For example, if I have erred in my posts, according to blog moderators, I am sorry, and I want to be shown my errors so that I can work on not repeating them. This seems to be how each one of us need to respond to criticism of any kind if that criticism is correct. And even when criticisms are incorrect, we should try to learn from them in some way.

R. Abanes

152   Jerry Hillyer    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:08 am

Neil,

With all due respect, struggles has assured me personally that he was not making any personal swipes at anyone nor was he being ’snarky.’

Post #100 was a direct response to a reply made here by PB. It was on topic and not extraneous to the thread. How is that snarky? How is that a ‘personal swipe’? PB is the one with the alter ego and he was swiping at iggy?!? Struggle was taking up for iggy and ODM.

Post #117 was a direct response to the conversation concerning credentials. People were talking about their background concerning comparative religion and apologetics. All struggles did was reply in kind. How is that snarky? How is that a personal swipe at anyone?

Here’s what struggles wrote:

After all the Bible does say that all of us should be prepared to give an answer for the hope we have which means at least, as I take it, that we should be living in such a way that people actually ask us questions about our hope. In other words, they strike up conversations with us!

How is that in any way a personal swipe or snarky?

You know, I love you guys, but lately you really seem to be a bit uptight. Wasn’t there a post just the other day about ‘not taking yourself too seriously’? So you have a policy of not filtering comments, and yet twice now there has been a public rebuke concerning comments I have made. If you seriously think my comments were snarky or personal swipes, I suggest that you read most of the rest of this thread, most of the rest of this blog.

Forgive me, but I really don’t understand this at all. A ban? Seriously? My comments were so horribly offensive that they require a ban?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Wow! I may have totally misjudged you folks. Neil, on a personal note, I’m beginning to think that you really don’t like me as much as I thought.

Sincerely,
Rev. Jerry L. Hillyer, II, B.R.E. (’95)
aka, Dan Goldfinch, Don Goldfish, and struggle4laodicea
Pastor/Preacher North Madison Church of Christ,
Madison, Ohio
Troop Chaplain, BSA Troop 5
Fmr Cubmaster, CSA Pack 55

153   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:12 am

Have you ever thought about simply admitting what you said was wrong or at least further explaining in detail what you meant instead of popping out a quick one-liner and running away?

There’s nothing wrong in this case is my point. Richard took a clip from a show about “discernment” ministry and tried to make it also be about apologetics and Comparative Religion as well.

He opens with a quote that says I have been: “specifically involved in Comparative Religion and apologetics for over 20 years”. From that point on he is the one who then adds “/discernment” each time to change the meaning. However, I did say specifically and I did say apologetics and Comparative Religion.

These are not “discernment” ministry, which I had no prior interest in while I was sharing in apologetics and Comparative Religion with people in area local churches. And this is what I said to Mike.

I don’t know why Richard is obsessing over this but being that I have for years ministered in small rural towns out in southwest Wyoming and later up in northeast New Hampshire it’s no surprise to me that Richard didn’t hear of me until God gave me the website I speak of on the Corley Program.

Frankly, we ought to be done with this because I have never claimed to have been widely known. But isn’t it possible that the Lord has many capable apologists, missionaries, etc. laboring in obscurity on the human level?

Leave me out of it; but I would say yes. Unfortunately Richard’s argument has become a personal attack. I am not going to go any further with this because it is really not helping anyone.

154   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:16 am

Jerry,
I think Neil probably meant a self-imposed ban, in the way of an honor system. I don’t think anyone wants to start moderating every comment here.

I also don’t think Neil’s comment was directed at just you.

155   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:21 am

By the way, this thread kind of reminds me of this picture…

Photobucket

156   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:23 am

PHIL: By the way, this thread kind of reminds me of this picture…

RA: You’ve ruined Star Wars for me — this is the first time I’ve actually felt bad for an Imperial Stormtrooper! Ahhh, Phil.

157   Neil    
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:25 am

Post #117 was a direct response to the conversation concerning credentials. People were talking about their background concerning comparative religion and apologetics. All struggles did was reply in kind. How is that snarky? How is that a personal swipe at anyone? –

Maybe I am too uptight – so be it. But in my estamation posts like #117 only serve to escalate the rhetoric. When some creates a new identity, and takes persona of their “opponent” in the discussion it becomes mockery.

This is a good point:

After all the Bible does say that all of us should be prepared to give an answer for the hope we have which means at least, as I take it, that we should be living in such a way that people actually ask us questions about our hope. In other words, they strike up conversations with us!

This, on the other hand serves no good purpose:

So my credentials, for apologetics and for Online Discernmentalism, are my faith, my baptism, my KJV, and my ability to point out the errors of all those who are so clearly wrong about important theological matters such as apologetics, purpose-drivel, and iggy.

That was my point.

Neil

158   Neil    
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:32 am

Wow! I may have totally misjudged you folks. Neil, on a personal note, I’m beginning to think that you really don’t like me as much as I thought. – Jerry

Sorry Jerry, I guess I just had enough and I took it out on post 117 as an example. Do you see what I mean, though, about the difference between the point you made and your taking on the role of an ODM?

I see you’re heavily into BSA – are you an Eagle?

Neil

159   Neil    
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:40 am

Richard,

This is just my opinion as one with posting rights… I understand the role the issue of credentials plays in this thread and you clearly made that point in lost #135.

Post #148 though just beat the same drum. I realize it was in repsonse to a swipe by Ken, but it was none-the-less just an escalation of the rhetoric.

Neil

160   Darren Sapp    http://www.vaporministries.blogspot.com/
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:41 am

On Pastor/Teacher Credentials:

Good: B.A. in Biblical Studies and M.Div. or ThM from Seminary.

Good: No formal education but constant digging into the Word like a pastor of a little church in the middle of Russia that I know who does not have access to formal education.

Bad: Calling yourself “Dr.” when your doctorate is an honorary degree or from a college that you started in a trailer and has no accreditation.

Best: 1 Timothy 3:1-7 – 1 It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. 2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. 4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity 5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?), 6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. 7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Effect: One could argue that a pastor addicted to alcohol will be a stumbling block to ministry or his love of money might cause resentment from congregants. GETTING BACK TO NATHAN’S original post and in light of this Scripture, every pastor/teacher must be temperate, gentle, peaceable, etc. with posts, comments, e-mails, etc. I hope any pastor/teacher would not have responded this way to a visitor in his church who came up and asked him a question after church. I hope we all strive to respond to each other with love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. I have failed on this before myself.

161   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:50 am

Neil,

Point taken. I publicly apologize to all for post #148. If I wanted to say those things to Ken, I should have done so in an email. Neil, you may remove #148 if you care to do so.

R. Abanes

162   Neil    
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:55 am

Richard,

Thank you. We will not remove the comment for two reason; 1) as a rule we do not edited or remove comments unless they really need to be, and 2) without the comment to refer to the discussion makes no sense.

Thanks again,

Neil

163   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 2nd, 2008 at 10:02 am

All the making up is really touching but in #153 I did noy swipe anybody and there’s zero snarkiness etc.

I have showed that Richard, for whatever reason, clearly misrepresented what I have said, k. It’s no big deal to me but you ADMs ought to at less ‘fess up to that.

Cuz adding “/discernment” into the comment is…well, *gulp* ODM-like. And ya’ll know we have no ethics. ;-)

164   Jerry Hillyer    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
July 2nd, 2008 at 10:08 am

Neil,

The whole point of assuming that role is to demonstrate absurdity by being absurd. It is not an intention to raise the rhetoric; it is a calculated attempt to STOP the rhetoric by helping people laugh at themselves or, as it were, by redirecting the attention to something far more innocuous than the self: a person who only exists in the (my) imagination.

Not to defend myself, but even the prophets had the occasion for the use of sarcasm and wit or over-the-top rhetoric. Not, mind you, that I am claiming to be a prophet, but that I am claiming the right to use sarcasm. If you are not going to moderate replies, then there should be no personal criticism of the replies that are made. Twice I have been called out for minor offenses when others have been permitted to ramble on at length over seemingly nonsense points, being far more snarky, using far more offensive language, etc.

That’s my point. Calling for bans or calling to ‘ratchet things down’ because we have ‘had enough’ or because we ‘are the only one holding down the fort’ is, IMHO, wrong–especially when all I was doing was trying to get RA and KS (in one conversation) and PB (in another) to get over themselves.

Since that conversation seems to have come to a (temporary) end, I consider my purpose (although in a not very Rick Warren sort of way) to be accomplished. If you are going to call for bans and ratcheting down, I think those calls ought to be consistently applied to all participants. Other than that, moderate comments. For example, state at the beginning of a post or thread what comments will not be tolerated, what sort of language cannot be used, what sort of rhetoric is not acceptable. In this way, readers, such as myself, who enjoy straying from a strictly didactic, black and white, straight and narrow, approach to blogging and threading, will be prevented from making such grievous errors in the use of language as I have been accused of in two very different threads as of late. (I’m being serious here.)

Phil, as you can see, I am the only one replying to this aspect of the thread. I think the calls were directly pointed in my direction. If I were a lesser man, I might be crying already. My point is that this blog, premised as it is on calling people out to exhibit justice and mercy and grace and love, etc., is not being very merciful when it comes to some things I have said here lately. All I am doing is defending a variety of speech methods: Limmerick, sarcasm, wit, rhetoric, etc. If these uses are unacceptable, moderate my comments. I won’t be offended at all.

jerry

ps–what does snarky even mean?

pss–nope; i am not. but since my church charters three scout groups, I participate in a lot of Eagle courts of honor, arrow of light ceremonies, etc. plus I have three sons who have all earned their AOL.

165   Neil    
July 2nd, 2008 at 10:18 am

All the making up is really touching but in #153 I did noy swipe anybody and there’s zero snarkiness etc. – Ken

I agree, post #153 was snark-free… thanks

Neil

166   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 2nd, 2008 at 10:20 am

“all I was doing was trying to get RA and KS (in one conversation) and PB (in another) to get over themselves.”

Yeah, we wouldn’t want to go on and on about an issue now, would we? Do yourself a favor and leave me out of your whining.

167   Neil    
July 2nd, 2008 at 10:21 am

but since my church charters three scout groups, I participate in a lot of Eagle courts of honor, arrow of light ceremonies, etc. plus I have three sons who have all earned their AOL.

Cool!

168   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 2nd, 2008 at 10:21 am

Neil,

Nice try at avoiding the fact that Richard clearly misrepresented me. I might have fallen off the turnip truck but it didn’t back over me.

169   Neil    
July 2nd, 2008 at 10:26 am

If you are going to call for bans and ratcheting down, I think those calls ought to be consistently applied to all participants.

Jerry,

The only thing I would say should be “banned” is the commenting under an alternative name. I understand how you employed it… but it could have been taken as a serious post.

I do not think we should moderate comments, or ban the use of role play for the purpose of being absurd… absurd to show absurdness can be effective.

I wholeheartedly agree that we should apply the standards evenly.

Peace?

Neil

170   Neil    
July 2nd, 2008 at 10:28 am

snarky

171   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
July 2nd, 2008 at 10:29 am

That’s my point. Calling for bans or calling to ‘ratchet things down’ because we have ‘had enough’ or because we ‘are the only one holding down the fort’ is, IMHO, wrong–especially when all I was doing was trying to get RA and KS (in one conversation) and PB (in another) to get over themselves.

Jerry – Since I was the one that started the whole ball rolling last night, I take the complete blame.

In all of PB’s rants yesterday, the one thing that did stick with me was the bit about folks using alternate personalities – particularly in the comments here. If you go back and read my comments, the primary criticism was at the sniping by PB, and between KS and RA.

The alternative personality thing was initially aimed at Igs and/or you (I couldn’t tell who was doing it, which validated PB’s earlier point). It has always bothered me, the same way that CRN hiding behind “the Editor” bothers me – it is not obvious who’s posting and the anonymity gives some license for behaving badly.

I wholeheartedly support the moderate use of satire and irony to demonstrate absurdity. Some, like PB, have no clue what it is or how to use it, so it is best they don’t try. Others, like ITodyaSo use it pretty well, but then go too far at times. But because of the anonymity factor (which is why I check IP addresses and such of new posters to see if they’re just switching personalities), it would really be best that we avoid it.

Of all people, I appreciate the use of a wide spectrum of literary styles and modes probably more than most. It is the petty back-and-forth stuff that turns me (and a number of readers who write to me) off. That is why I singled out PB and the KS-RA deal going on.

172   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
July 2nd, 2008 at 10:36 am

KEN: Richard took a clip from a show about “discernment” ministry and tried to make it also be about apologetics and Comparative Religion as well.
RA: I did? No. YOU did. In the very clip I provided, you were the one who stated: “The way — I’ve said it before — I GOT INTO THIS MINISTRY[i.e., discernment/apologetics], was we STARTED a little thing that was going to be an outreach where I would do APOLOGETICS and counter-cult work in the local area.”

YOU described how YOU got into APOLOGTICS, Ken, not me.

It just seems very evident to me and others that you pad your resume. I mean, really, Walter Martin was your mentor? I worked at CRI and listened to ALL, yes, I said ALL of Walter Martin’s tapes that I loaned out from our stockroom and private library — tapes that I have not even seen released to the public, as far as I know, and I would NEVER call Martin my mentor.

___________
KEN: He opens with a quote that says I have been: “specifically involved in Comparative Religion and apologetics for over 20 years”. From that point on he is the one who then adds “/discernment” each time to change the meaning. However, I did say specifically and I did say apologetics and Comparative Religion.
RA: Are you serious? “Discernment” and apologetics are intertwined and connected by everyone in conversation, including legitimate apologists and ODMs. Discernment is the underlying giftedness that goes hand-in-hand with apologetics, counter-cult, and comparative religion ministries. Stop playing word games.

____________
KEN:These are not “discernment” ministry, which I had no prior interest in while I was sharing in apologetics and Comparative Religion with people in area local churches. And this is what I said to Mike.
RA: Okay, you had no prior interest in apologetics, if you want to go that way. This still makes your statements untrue.

____________
KEN: I don’t know why Richard is obsessing over this but being that I have for years ministered in small rural towns out in southwest Wyoming and later up in northeast New Hampshire it’s no surprise to me that Richard didn’t hear of me until God gave me the website I speak of on the Corley Program.
RA: It’s an issue becaus ethe way you present yourself is not altogether uprfront. You make it SEEM so different to listerners on the radio, and to those who would DARE criticize you, the pastor-teacher who has been in the field of apologetics for lo-these 20+ years after having been metored by Walter Martin. C’mon, Ken. Really, now.

____________
KEN: Frankly, we ought to be done with this because I have never claimed to have been widely known. But isn’t it possible that the Lord has many capable apologists, missionaries, etc. laboring in obscurity on the human level?
RA: I am not surprised you want this to drop. And yes, it is indeed possible “that the Lord has many capable apologists, missionaries, etc. laboring in obscurity on the human level.” But you, sir, in my subjective opinion, are not one of them.

R. Abanes

— this is my final word on the subject.

173   Neil    
July 2nd, 2008 at 10:39 am

Jerry – Since I was the one that started the whole ball rolling last night, I take the complete blame. – Chris L.

Chris L.

You need not fall on this sword alone – I certainly contributed. In part because I thought Struggles4laodicea was a new player – I completely missed the role playing aspect. Maybe that makes me the short straw in the pack…

Neil

174   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 2nd, 2008 at 11:23 am

you were the one who stated: “The way — I’ve said it before — I GOT INTO THIS MINISTRY[i.e., discernment/apologetics],

Yes, I did. Subject of Mike’s program: Discernment ministries, which is context for “this ministry,” in addition to what I was already doing.

Discernment is the underlying giftedness that goes hand-in-hand with apologetics, counter-cult, and comparative religion ministries.

Who said it isn’t? But this website is evidence there is a field loosely known as “discernment ministry,” which has grown (good or bad is irrelevant here) via the Internet. Personal Freedom Outreach, e.g. has been doing this in print for years.

But what Mike was talking about was not apologetics and CR, it was this Internet “discernment” that I am now somewhat known for (good or bad is irrelevant). I am not the one playing word games.

The rest of what Richard writes is, as he said, subjective opinion and speculation. Have at it, but to anyone not biased–and though they may not agree with me personally–it is clear the Corley Program was addressing what my dear loving brother Joe Martino deemed: Online Discernment Ministry.

And it is not the same thing as sharing on apologetics and Comparative Religion in area local churches as I have done for years, etc.

R. Abanes

— this is my final word on the subject.

Works for me.

175   opus    
July 2nd, 2008 at 12:39 pm

Richard
someone has put a trojen virus on your home page.You might want to check it out.

176   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
July 2nd, 2008 at 12:40 pm

Opus,

Negative. THAT is a result of my link at the bottom to WIKI (”About me”). There is a scanning program that for some reason does not like any wiki links. This is happened before.

RAbanes

177   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 2nd, 2008 at 2:18 pm

Ken,

Uh-oh, looks like Carlos got some repentin’ to do? How could he know that? Answer: He couldn’t.

Well it looks like you proved my point… instead of a dialog, you switch in onto me and then accuse me of sin.

Ken, you are so sad… really… I do hurt for you. Really, you do pick and choose what you believe and discard any critique as if you are above reproach… most of us see it so clearly…

This sentence from you alone confirms all I wrote…

iggy

178   Jerry Hillyer    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
July 2nd, 2008 at 2:29 pm

Friends,

This is why I love you guys. Neil, we were never at war, brother. I was probably just feeling a little singled out and it’s my issue to learn the point of this post: “My dad always told me that you could tell alot about someone based on how they respond to correction or constructive criticism.” I didn’t do well and I am sorry too.

Chris L., I get that and you are right. I’ll try to reign in my sarcasm and satire a bit or at least asterix it when it is. I truly don’t mean to be hurtful, but sarcasm does cut deeply the flesh at times.

Ken S., you wrote:

“Yeah, we wouldn’t want to go on and on about an issue now, would we? Do yourself a favor and leave me out of your whining.”

There’s a lot of things I would like to leave you out of, Reindeer games included, unfortunately, my whining is not part of that equation. The only one around here who feels the need to prove himself is you. All the rest of us, with the possible exception of RA :) , and the certain exception of PB, know well where we stand with the Lord, and we are secure in our credentials or lack there of. Your arrogance notwithstanding, I will continue to pray and whine for you.*

*not satire or sarcasm.

jerry

179   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 2nd, 2008 at 2:34 pm

PB,

Iggy, I am concerned at your ODM ’satire’ website. I have told you this repeatedly. I think is is wrong and injurious to the body of Christ. I am personally offended by it. I think it is wrong that you insult Ken Silva’s church on it. Oh yeah, and your pride is seeping through on this comment.. who ever said size was a proof of God’s blessing?

John Chisham aka Pastorboy aka Emergent Eddie,
You slander me and are a hypocrite beyond measure…

You set a standard for me you do not keep yourself…

Iggy, you believe that you are above reproach, justifying your slanderous website. You are also held to a higher standard, one in which your false identity will be brought to light. I pray God has mercy. Talk about being a divisive person

Yep, I slander Mark Driscoll, Brian McLaren, Ken Silva, Michael Horton, Shane Claiborn, Doug Paggit, Slice of Laodicea, CRN, CRN.info, Bigfoot, funny beards, biblical stoning, and I am sure the list will go on and on… the the only one that complains is you! Yet, funny thing is, I don’t remember slandering anyone…

Again it is funny you can slander people directly on your sites and then slander others as Emerging Eddie…

Like your slander against the emerging church by saying it is a drug infested church.. .

How about your slander against Doug Pagitt… again at your main sites and at emerging eddies… saying he teaches laughing yoga

You slander the emerging church again by stating that we use “crystals” and claim Jesus was a holistic healer… personally I know of none as holistic as Jesus is, yet I doubt he used crystals.

Again, you judge me by a standard you do not even hold yourself. You accuse me of offenses that even Ken Silva has not… and really my depiction of Ken’s church growth is more accurate than your depiction of most anyone.

that was not rationalizing anything.. it is the fact John, you are a hypocrite extraordinaire!

iggy

180   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 2nd, 2008 at 2:34 pm

Ken,

How big is your church now? are you up to 8 people or 10? Has it been 2 years now?

iggy

181   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 2nd, 2008 at 2:36 pm

PB,

btw, emerging eddie does not offend me… I think it is just ill conceived and not really funny!

iggy

182   Neil    
July 2nd, 2008 at 2:47 pm

Ken,

How big is your church now? are you up to 8 people or 10? Has it been 2 years now?

iggy

Iggy,

Please do not address anyone through these comments in this type of condescending manner.

Neil

183   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 2nd, 2008 at 2:53 pm

Neil,

I am not condescending at all. I am genuinely curious… Ken likes to brag, and I hope he can brag about his success!

I am sincere as I do not want and church to fail… I want them to grow in numbers and in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.

I did a church plant for 2 years. When I realized that I had about 8 members I rethought the idea and became part of the local Vineyard Church plant where I was welcomed with open arms. In fact in reflection, that was where God wanted me all along.

I learned a lot in that 2 years, one is to realize that if all I had was 8 people it was not growing as it should. Where I am now, we are moving on toward 200 people in two years and God is using me.

iggy

184   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 2nd, 2008 at 3:07 pm

Gentlemen of the CRN.Info family,

In the real world for one to state a fact, e.g. I am a pastor-teacher, is not to boast nor is it arrogance. For one to do so and/or to address criticism does not equate to being insecure nor does it mean one is necessarily bothered by it. So we can put that to nighty-nite, k.

This is why my associates in ministry, and especially the people in my local church, will laugh each time they read the assessments of me here at CRN.Info. You see, unfortunately you have simply imagined this “Ken” and he couldn’t be further from who I actually am.

*whispering* Now don’t tell anyone but I’m actually an unfeeling cyborg. ;-)

185   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
July 2nd, 2008 at 3:36 pm

Jerry: The only one around here who feels the need to prove himself is you. All the rest of us, with the possible exception of RA

RA: Lol. :-) Hardly. I enjoy the banter and remain amazed at some of the responses.

186   Jerry Hillyer    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
July 2nd, 2008 at 3:50 pm

Richard,

Sorry my smiley didn’t show up as well as yours. I’m glad you have a sense of humor. :) :) :)

jerry

187   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 2nd, 2008 at 4:01 pm

Ken,

In the real world for one to state a fact, e.g. I am a pastor-teacher,

No one is criticizing you about this… it is the other stuff like saying you were “mentored” by Walter Martin when you were not at all.

iggy

188   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 2nd, 2008 at 4:08 pm

Carlos,

Dude, the issue is closed. Look, me, Richard an’ Jerry is all smilin’. So let’s leave it at that, k. This way Chris L. will be a-smilin’ 2 :-)

189   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
July 2nd, 2008 at 4:09 pm

Iggy:

RE: Post 179
Once again, I have not posted nor referenced that site since January. People stated they were offended, and I stopped posting.

Take that log out Iggy

Also, you slandered me.

I never said the Emergent church was drug infested
I never said Doug Pagitt practiced laughing Yoga
I never said the Emergent church used crystals.

I would not be suprised if there was a church like the Shepherds Crook, but all these were postings of that imaginary church, and an imaginary pastor.

My satire may not be that good, again, but it is in the model of your Online Discernment Mafia. However, I do not name names like you, and I do not insult particular real churches like you do to Ken Silva.

Also, as for the Down Grade, there is no slander on there whatsoever. There is only quotes, discernment, and apologetics. If you have a legitimate pithy point about any of the topics, you are still able to post there. Moderation of comments is not on.

Watch out for bears, Carlos.

Chad,

Please note how your friends continue to mock and insult a person who has apologized and stopped his site as requested.

190   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
July 2nd, 2008 at 4:13 pm

Ken,

Your comment, taken in isolation, is indeed not that big a deal. But the label, as you use it, fits into a more generalized padding of your credentials, position, and authority, which is evident to others.

RA

191   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 2nd, 2008 at 4:21 pm

Ken,

Your comment,…

Richard, step away from the keyboard… please… ;-)

192   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 2nd, 2008 at 4:23 pm

PB,

I never said the Emergent church was drug infested
I never said Doug Pagitt practiced laughing Yoga
I never said the Emergent church used crystals.,

Do not remember writing those posts I linked to? And if it offended such, why is it still up? I see your truly repentant heart as it is still up…

I do not insult particular real churches like you do to Ken Silva.

How is stating that Ken’s church has about 7 or 8 people an insult… if it is true? In fact you seem to be insulting Ken every time you bring this up… I pray for his success and hope he and his church grows in the knowledge of grace and truth in Christ Jesus… by saying that me saying his church is small is an insult YOU insult him!

Also, I think the real issue is that there is truth in what I say as a ODM and that it smacks you in the face. You cannot stand that I set a higher standard then you do and then keep other ODM’s in line with that standard… as they fail miserably!

JOhn, you need to get a grip and get out and minister instead of slandering me. As far as your other sites, we go round and round, but Doug Pagitt is not a universalist. He may have other issues, but that is not one of them… he is of Ariminian persuasion which means he believes one can lose their salvation and teaches one must walk daily and can lose their salvation daily and gain it again…. I do not agree with him on this at all… and it is more complicated than I am stating here as it has to do with salvation being more than “praying a prayer” or crossing a line… and less to do with works than you already are thinking… it is about where ones heart is and in our heart what we do with the salvation God has given us.

again I am not in agreement with Doug on this.

but that negates you Universalist slander by a mile! and makes your statements about him… slanderous.

Oh, and yes I name names… like Doug and Tony and Mark and Brian and Rick Warren and Shane Claiborn who I say is not even saved! Yet, you get bent over Ken having a very small church and that I state that.

sheesh. pathetic

iggy

193   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
July 2nd, 2008 at 4:31 pm

Iggy,

Check it again. I never stated any of those things.

If I could get into it, I would delete it.

You are a slandering liar when it comes to what I have written.

Watch out for bears, Carlos.

194   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 2nd, 2008 at 4:32 pm

The size of Ken’s church is utterly irrelevant, and when you mention it, Iggy, you are not just stating truth. You are attempting to demean him because he pastor’s a small church.

195   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
July 2nd, 2008 at 4:36 pm

I never thought I’d find myself doing this, but I have to defend ken Silva on this one. gulp. The size of someone’s church DOES NOT matter. If it’s 8, 80, 800, or 8000 – if yielded to God, it glorifies him.

RAbanes

196   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
July 2nd, 2008 at 4:37 pm

I have a newfound and growing respect for Richard and Rick.

197   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 2nd, 2008 at 5:06 pm

Richard,

I appreciate what you said re. church size and I have heard what you said earlier.

198   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 2nd, 2008 at 5:48 pm

Richard,

I agree, but that also depends on the health of the church. If i was in a town where there was not already a church on every block I would not have had a problem with 8 people, but still two years and no growth was a sign that maybe it was not going as it needed, so I reassessed the situation and prayed and went another direction. i am still planting a church, but I am not solely responsible it and now have backing. Also I am being truly mentored by the pastor in how to plant a church.

The thing is not how big it is and that is the reason I am saying PB is actually the one insulting Ken when he says that my “meter” gauging the growth of Ken’s church is mean because it only has 7 people on it. It seems PB is more worried about size than me!

iggy

199   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
July 2nd, 2008 at 5:57 pm

Iggy,

In a town of 5 million, if those 8 people are being fed, and God is being glorified, it doesn’t necessarily mean that something is wrong there. We can’t figure God out that way. It might simply mean that God wants those specific 8 or 80 or whatever people to be there with that one pastor for God’s good pleasure and to accomplish his will there, in and through them, whatever that may be. Don’t try to figure God out insofar as how he does things. That’s all I’m saying.

RAbanes

200   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
July 2nd, 2008 at 5:58 pm

I will add that for YOU, perhaps God did indeed desire something else. You were obedient and he blessed. Kewl.

RA

201   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 2nd, 2008 at 6:00 pm

PB,

Check it again. I never stated any of those things.

Here is the title of one of the articles you posted… “Chronic during Communal Gathering” the last line insinuates that we emerging church people condone drug usage I quote you…

” After all, the holy books including the Bible don’t prohibit marijuana, do they? “

In your post “Why I practice laughing yoga” you state…

“I believe that Yoga is Christian, because all truth is God’s truth, and I believe that God can speak to all cultures so I believe that Yoga, in its mind emptying and use of poses or positions can enhance my daily worship experience”

note this is next to a picture of Team Pyro’s emerging poster mocking Doug Paggit. Also, you are writing as “Emerging” Eddie… which is stating you are part of the conversation… so you are stating that exactly as I stated.

Crystals and Light You state again as “Emerging Eddie” again making as if you are part of the emerging church…

You stated you never said that the emerging church promotes crystals for healing?

“A great teacher named Jesus once said that he was the light of the world. It makes me wonder that if the source of the light in the crystals was the same source of the light in Jesus. It made me further wonder in Jesus used crystals to do healing as he was walking on this planet. Was Jesus a holistic healer? Did He us crystals when he healed inner darkness?”

Funny it seems you did…

So far you seem to deny having stated the things I have already show twice, so maybe this third time will be the charm…

But somehow I doubt it.

iggy

202   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 2nd, 2008 at 6:02 pm

PB,

Again, I am not offended… I am sure it was all in good fun.

Funny thing is I get most complaints from you and Mark Driscoll supporters… but it does not seem to bother Mark that much as far as I can tell…

iggy

203   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
July 2nd, 2008 at 6:03 pm

The thing is not how big it is and that is the reason I am saying PB is actually the one insulting Ken when he says that my “meter” gauging the growth of Ken’s church is mean because it only has 7 people on it. It seems PB is more worried about size than me!

God knows that I am not a Ken fan and John creates a desire in me to gouge out my eyes but Iggy did you really type that with a strait face?

204   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 2nd, 2008 at 6:27 pm

Joe,

I… well… errr… did smile a bit… but believe me it is innocent…

igs

205   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
July 2nd, 2008 at 10:58 pm

Iggy,

Insinuation is a far cry from saying that they actually do it.

Its called Satire.

Again, you have proven nothing. Again the site is no longer being used by me. If I could get into it, I would shut it down.

You are even being told by your friends that you should stop the Silva growth chart.

Why not listen to them?

206   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 2nd, 2008 at 11:11 pm

PB,

Iggy,

Insinuation is a far cry from saying that they actually do it.

Its called Satire.

Again, you have proven nothing. Again the site is no longer being used by me. If I could get into it, I would shut it down.

You are even being told by your friends that you should stop the Silva growth chart.

Why not listen to them

So you also are lying about not knowing what satire is on top of saying you never wrote those posts?

Diggin’ deeper John… you ain’t helping your cause.

iggy

207   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 2nd, 2008 at 11:16 pm

OH BTW John, it is being used by you as it is still up and running and your name is behind it.

But, don’t let that keep you from taking any responsibility for your own actions and words…

Admit it you have no grounds to bring any accusations against me if you have done it and are still letting it happen yourself. Deal with your own sin before you come to me and deal with whatever you think my sin is.

Again, my site is satire. Yet I am writing as a character who is a combination of a few people… in that I state what you and others already stated, yet also hold the ODM’s to the same standard… i am more even handed than any ODM ever will be and has been.

And I am so sure Brian McLaren and Rick Warren are upset about the Bigfoot story… that was so mean!

iggy

208   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 2nd, 2008 at 11:18 pm

You are even being told by your friends that you should stop the Silva growth chart.

Now who was this? I don’t remember any “friend” other than you say to take it down… are you my friend now? So stop adding more lies John… more lies do not help your cause…

iggy

209   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
July 3rd, 2008 at 7:56 am

Iggy

I never said “Doug Pagitt practices laughing Yoga”
I never said ” Emergent churches are filled with drugs”
I never said “emergent churches use crystals”

You are a liar. Anybody who can read can see that. Go to the site, read each referenced post. Inferred? maybe. Satire? clearly.

And over. I have e- mailled blogger, hopefully they can tell me how to get it down.

210   Neil    
July 3rd, 2008 at 8:01 am

Iggy and Pastor Boy,

It’s time to put this dispute to rest. This thread and this site is not the place for your fight about who posted what somewhere else. You each have called the other a liar, you’ve each posted comments to try and prove the allegation.

In the spirit of the Spirit, please cease.

Neil

211   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 3rd, 2008 at 10:08 am

PB,

Now… this is really sad… you “quote” me quoting you yet the original comment I wrote had no quotations… so by you switching and turning them into direct quotes you make me a liar… that is very dishonest…

I never wrote direct quotes as to those being your statements…t hose were summaries of what you wrote.

again the links are in comment #201 and anyone that reads can see how you changed this. You are caught red handed again in slandering me.

Apologies are much easier John.

iggy

212   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 3rd, 2008 at 10:10 am

Neil,

With all due respect… PB has called me a liar and produced nothing to back his claims… I have produced links to not only his lies, but his hypocrisy and slander…

I am done… but personally I think John is one sick puppy that needs a ton of prayer and deliverance from this sickness he has.

iggy

213   Jonathan Frueh    
July 3rd, 2008 at 10:27 am

Iggy, did you read the post over at slice? The one that referenced you?

214   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 3rd, 2008 at 10:35 am

Ingrid can sure spin things can’t she. I sent her a friendly email that your father will get also. It basically states that she need do direct links to me if she refers to me… and that Ken Silva pads his resume and lies about being mentored by Walter Martin.

No hard feelings though. She is what she is and more and more people are seeing through her veil of deceit.

On one hand we have Richard Abenas who has “won the Evangelical Press Association’s “Higher Goals In Christian Journalism Award”"
and on the other hand we have Ingrid who teaches works righteousness and thinks Ravi Zacharias is a false teacher. Which one has more credibility? I think Richard wins by a long shot!

If anything I will get more hits and more readers.

iggy

215   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 3rd, 2008 at 10:37 am

BTW it was this site that forced Ken to acknowledge that he was not only mentored by “tapes” and he never worked under or was taught directly by Walter Martin… though Ken still claims he was “mentored” by Walter Martin.

So Ingrid defends the lies of Ken…

iggy

216   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 3rd, 2008 at 6:54 pm

it was this site that forced Ken to acknowledge that he was not only mentored by “tapes” and he never worked under or was taught directly by Walter Martin…

This is a not true.

217   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
July 3rd, 2008 at 7:34 pm

So Ingrid defends the lies of Ken…

Iggy I’m not certain that statements of personal attack do anything to advance dialog.

As for what I’ve read Ken has been gracious and deserves the decency as a brother in Christ.

218   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
July 3rd, 2008 at 7:56 pm

Are we now saying that Ken hasn’t been caught in more lies than a NY governor? I can appreciate that his latest batch of comments have been mostly on topic but saying that Ingrid is defending his lies after reading that post– where she decries Richard A simply using Ken’s own words to show his veracity issues– doesn’t seem like a personal attack to me but more of a statement of fact.

219   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 3rd, 2008 at 8:16 pm

I have read many discernment blogs. Large ones and small ones. Some are more aggressive and judgmental than others, but I haven’t been able to find one that does what SOL does, namely posting the moral failures of young and old alike to convine someone that morality is on the decline.

My two oldest children are serving Christ today, but they both went through several years of rebellion against God. My daughter became pregnant outside marriage and later was married to the father.

But during those years our church and our family, my wife and her mother who has lived with me for 29 years, cried out to God daily. We fasted, we prayed, we agonized with a pain that no one can know except those who have experienced it.

But while in the midst of their rebeelion and sin, if someone had callously printed an article that delineated their sin as a slap in the face of Christ, someone who did not know them orour circumstance, my wife and mother-in-law would have been devestated on top of our broken hearts.

I do not question Ken’s Christianity or testimony, nor his ordination, nor his research skills, and I can even absorb much of his rhetoric, but to suuport SOL as they continue to cull out sinners and believers alike who they do not know and mount them on its self righteous wall of shame for all to see and mock makes those who support such moral hubris as complicit.

Say what you will about Rick Warren, but leave the young strugglers within the prayer chamber that many mothers and fathers like us lived. That is not carrying other’s burdens, that is adding to them and SOL should stop that repulsive aspect of that blog.

220   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
July 3rd, 2008 at 8:22 pm

Are we now saying that Ken hasn’t been caught in more lies than a NY governor?

Let me clarify…Ken may very well be lying and Rich has aptly pointed to some spurious quotes from Ken but for the most part Ken has engaged in civil dialog and deserves to at least be respected as a brother in Christ.

221   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 3rd, 2008 at 8:27 pm

Ken is a brother in Christ, however he supports SOL’s policy of attacking “civilians” and posting their failures. That doesn’t deserve respect.

222   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
July 3rd, 2008 at 8:32 pm

I never said his actions deserved respect I said he does.

223   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
July 3rd, 2008 at 10:47 pm

Chris: Ken has engaged in civil dialog

RA: I respectfully disagree, let’s begin with how he mockingly calls Rick Warren the “Purpose Driven Pope.” That’s clearly inflammatory — and it’s just the beginning.

He also calls the Emerging Movement a cult, as noted by this blurb about an interview with SOL: “Ken was talking about Rob Bell and the emergent church, and how after his studies with the late Dr. Walter Martin and the cults, that he realizes just how cultic the emergent church has become in its theology and practice.”

(NOTE, btw, how this trusting soul referred to Ken’s “studies with the late Dr. Walter Martin.” Makes it sound like Ken studied with Martin, doesn’t it? That was the impression they certainly got from Ken.)

Martin would have NEVER considered emerging a cult, or cultlike.

RAbanes

224   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 3rd, 2008 at 11:44 pm

Ken,

This is a not true.

Yes, it is… you were confronted over this in an early post and in that thread and you stated it was through tapes and not by direct personal mentoring. I am sure someone here can find it…

Chris.

As for what I’ve read Ken has been gracious and deserves the decency as a brother in Christ.

Can you show me where Ken has been gracious? This still does not negate that he has lied and refuses to acknowledge that he represents himself as he is not.

Now Ken has accomplished much, in that I agree, yet on the points that have been brought up, the only “gracious” thing I see Ken has done is not respond.

Instead I a few of us have had very malicious attacks done to us by Ingrid on Ken’s defense. If Ken is so gracious I would ask he 1. responds 2. asks Ingrid to remove her ugly attack and lies against the people she is attacking for Ken’s sake on her site.

iggy

225   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 4th, 2008 at 12:25 am

I want to clear something up.

Ingrid is referring to me as “Pastor” Carlos Shelton. I do pastor/teach at my church and am on the leadership team. I have not been given the title “Pastor” though I have pastored while doing my church plant and also have been a Youth Pastor.

I do not take the title as it is being applied to me.

Pastoring is a gift where one gently loves and guides the people in the congregation. Many people who are not even in the “leadership” role can have the gift of pastor and also love and guide and others.

I am a Pastor, but again do not take that as a title, but as a gift. To apply it to me as a title as Ingrid and Pastorboy do is not accurate.

I am ordained, but because some thought the organization I was ordained through was not “legit” to their specification I rarely mention it anymore. BUt, since I am not officially been instated by the Vineyard Denomination as a “Pastor” in title, I hope that those referring to me as such will stop as it misrepresent me and what I do.

Thanks,
iggy

226   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
July 4th, 2008 at 7:05 am

Ken has engaged in civil dialog

Look I’m no avid Ken defender but in regards to this thread and the other thread he has been gracious for the most part.

Rich and Iggy regardless of how he responds to you, negatively or positively, your (our) call is to respond with the graciousness that Christ has offered to everyone.

In the heat of the moment it is easy to get in a flame war but that is neither productive nor interesting to be a part of.

A gentle reminder for all of us.

227   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
July 4th, 2008 at 10:27 am

I want to avoid the dead horse here but if you go to Ken’s blog you’ll see just a few posts down this post where he makes the claim that Brian McLaren is speaking for the devil. That’s unbelievable. I suppose, I shouldn’t be surprised but come on.

228   Chad    http://www.chadholtz.wordpress.com
July 4th, 2008 at 10:40 am

What a terrible article. It seems to be lost on Ken that there are at least 5 theories of the atonement and neither McLaren nor Chalke deny the cross, only the way in which ONE theory uses it.

In any event, denying penal sub atonement THEORY is hardly a reason to say anyone is speaking for Satan. That is absurd.

It also seems lost on Ken that Jesus did not start “Christianity.” The term “christian” was first used by pagans to describe followers of Jesus and it was used pejoritively. Rob Bell had a great sermon series titled, “Jesus Came to save Christians.” We need it.

peace,
Chad

229   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 4th, 2008 at 10:47 am

Joe – Are you suggesting excessive hyperbole from Ken? Who knew. :)

230   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 4th, 2008 at 10:48 am

Can anyone tell me why my name and e-mail etc. seems to disappear and I have to re-enter it periodically?

231   Chad    http://www.chadholtz.wordpress.com
July 4th, 2008 at 10:51 am

My guess is that you have an elusive spirit of deception hovering over your keyboard, Rick. Perhaps we should be careful about reading your posts.

Or, you might have your cookies disabled on your computer so it isn’t saving your info.

232   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
July 4th, 2008 at 10:51 am

Rick,
That would have to do with your personal computer settings. My guess is that your computer is set to erase cookies periodically.

233   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 4th, 2008 at 10:54 am

Thank you Chad and Joe. I fixed it even while being a computer Cro-magnum!

234   Chad    http://www.chadholtz.wordpress.com
July 4th, 2008 at 10:57 am

Shoot – I was pulling for the elusive spirit thingy.

Cookies are boring (yet delicious)

235   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 4th, 2008 at 11:21 am

Again Chris and Neil… what and where are these gracious comments on this thread? point out what number(s)… I have read through half of them again and stopped as I see not one bit of grace in any of them… just snide remarks and attacks and elusiveness…

iggy

236   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 4th, 2008 at 11:23 am

Also i ahve shown Ken grace as I mentioned I have no issue with his “title” pastor/teacher it is how he tosses it about like he can get a free lunch that is part of the issue. That is abuse of the gift not exercise of it.

iggy

237   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
July 4th, 2008 at 11:27 am

Iggy,

Comparatively from previous threads Ken has been, as I said, “gracious for the MOST part”

Nothing more to say on the issue. Just thought I might try to soften the tone in this thread.

238   Chad    http://www.chadholtz.wordpress.com
July 4th, 2008 at 11:31 am

Chris? Might I suggest free cookies?

239   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 4th, 2008 at 12:15 pm

Chris,

I was done with this thread until Ingrid began her attack…

iggy

240   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 4th, 2008 at 12:44 pm

Chris,

Here is how gracious Ken really is…

And they do not have the courage to link to my sites… just do a sniper attack.

iggy

241   Kirby L. Wallace    http://imnothardtofind.com
July 5th, 2008 at 3:43 am

“Anyhow, this all too telling of the attitude of both Apprising and CRN:
We are educated, anointed and experienced, therefore we get to criticize whoever we want, whenever we want. And, you better not say anything about it.”
–nathan

On this very site:

“Nathan Neighbour currently serves on the creative arts team at Mosaic LA, working with an incredibly talented group of actors, dancers, visual artists, filmmakers, writers and stage technicians. He is a native of Southern California, having grown up in the heart of the Inland Empire. Nathan began his professional career in the performing arts when he began working as on-air talent for the Children’s Broadcasting Corporation at age 13. At age 16, he began his stage training, performing in over 30 theatrical productions in a five year time frame.

At that time, he also began touring as the front man for the band Moment for Burning. In 2003 he produced his first full-length EP, released independently. He graduated from California Baptist University with a degree in Christian Theology and Modern Music in 2005. He is currently pursuing a double Masters in Entrepreneur Leadership thru Awaken and Global Leadership thru Golden Gate Baptist Theological seminary. Nathan has a passion to reach the world for Christ through the arts, seeing that the future culture will be communicated thru image and experience design.”

Hmmmmn……

Who’s touting creds?

242   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
July 5th, 2008 at 8:26 am

Kirby,

There’s a difference between documenting who you are and where you’re coming from and using it as a bludgeon and (il)logical proof (i.e. an argument by appeal to authority).

For example, with Nathan, you don’t find arguments to the effect “I’m correct because of who I am” (which can’t be said of Ken, in particular)…

243   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
July 5th, 2008 at 8:28 am

Kirby,
If you really think that comparison is valid you might want to look up a rhetoric class at your local community college.

244   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
July 5th, 2008 at 8:33 am

Kirby,

Doctors hang their medical credentials in their office. Construction workers and contractors show their licenses. Cops show their badge. You get point, I think.

There is nothing wrong with providing, especially when asked, one’s credentials. It’s quite another thing to just make stuff up and pad your resume, as they say, to make it sound far more impressive and authoritative.

That is what Ken has done to lend himself an air of credibility/experience that, sorry to say, he simply doesn’t have.

RAbanes

245   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 5th, 2008 at 8:39 am

I happen to have a doctorate from Frueh’s University of Advanced Theological Studies. I graduated summa com laude and am currently the provost at said institution.

I also like Doritos chips. :)

246   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
July 5th, 2008 at 9:46 am

Kirby actually what Nathan did was the same thing you do on your business website.

247   Chad    http://www.chadholtz.wordpress.com
July 5th, 2008 at 9:49 am

How ironic :)

248   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 5th, 2008 at 9:56 am

Which of you guys is a great internet detective and can research things? I have something I would like to verify.

Contact me at spcrick@msn.com

249   Chad    http://www.chadholtz.wordpress.com
July 5th, 2008 at 9:59 am

Sorry Rick – I have trouble finding my own kids….or socks.

250   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
July 5th, 2008 at 10:00 am

Rick I just sent you an email

251   emergent pillage    http://jazzact13.blogspot.com/
July 7th, 2008 at 10:20 am

–PB has called me a liar and produced nothing to back his claims–

I remember a bit ago that you called me (was jazzact13) a liar, iggy, and produced not one shred of evidence for such an accusation.

Pots and kettles.

252   emergent pillage    http://emergentpillage.blogspot.com/
July 7th, 2008 at 10:23 am

Sorry, didn’t update the website. Here is the new one.