First, let me be open and honest with everyone.  More recently, I have not read the ODM sites all that much.  I really have decided that their constant negativity was just not worth worrying about.  This afternoon, though, I decided to look at CRN, and, really I am just about flabbergasted.  This has to be a new low.

It is one thing to attack pastors or authors.  It is quite another to attack a pastor’s wife.  Especially over some quite innocuous remarks she made at gathering where she was launching her book talking about the perils and pitfalls of serving in the church.  Jane Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury’s wife, said the following about serving in the church in this article:

“The Church can be a thankless employer, with poor boundaries between private and public space, vague practices about holidays and days off, laughable job descriptions and few opportunities to congratulate oneself on a job well done and completed.”

Now anyone who has served in just about any capacity in a church of any size would immediately realize the veracity of this statement.  Growing up in a pastor’s family, I would say Mrs. Williams is even being too polite.  But this is what the “Editor” over at CRN has to say:

Well, we’re guessing Jesus might ask her, “Where are the nail prints in your hands?”

OK, let me be honest again here.  I’m not a violent person, but if someone was this jerky when talking about my mother or wife, I would be seriously tempted to punch that person in the nose if I were in the same room as him.  This is just uncalled for.  It is pure, unadulterated self-righteousness.

The thing that makes the “Editor’s” self-righteousness so over the top is generally mild nature of Mrs. Williams’ statement, which can hardly be classified as whining.  If anything, her statement is an effort on her part to get those considering becoming ministers to count the cost - something Jesus Himself admonished us to do.  The fact that she is speaking to a gathering of Anglican leaders is also lost on the “editor”.  This is the very thing that is needed in the Church – an open and honest discussion about life in the Church.  What we don’t need is more people hiding behind self-righteous masks.  It is sad that there are those who think the correct response to honesty is ridicule.

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This entry was posted on Friday, July 18th, 2008 at 3:46 pm and is filed under Church and Society, Editor, Hypocrisy, What Can You Say?, Women. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
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118 Comments(+Add)

1   Chris P.    
July 18th, 2008 at 3:56 pm

Much ado about nothing.
How about some cheese to go with your whine?

2   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 18th, 2008 at 4:09 pm

The “editor” attacked Kay Warren for her unapproved remarks about helping African AIDs sufferers. I find this type of post cowardly and unbiblical. All of us would not desire some of our remarks made public, but we can thank God that He has faithful “bottom feeders” who glory in the shortcomings of others and are blind to their own.

Doctrinal issues are fair game, personal imperfections, especially someone’s wife, is fleshly. But every once in a while a post is a looking glass into the heart of the “editor”. God’s prophets in these last days are secular newspapers which provide a crustacean service on which followers of Christ cane feed.

3   Chad    http://www.chadholtz.wordpress.com
July 18th, 2008 at 4:16 pm

How unbelievably uncharitable and unChristlike.

Makes one wonder if the people who write such garbage have ever once experienced grace in their lives.

4   Kevin I    http://www.ominousknife.com
July 18th, 2008 at 4:18 pm

“where are the nail prints in your hands?”

That’s just terrible, this woman is showing many of the scars of her church work and having a spouse in full-time ministry in what she is saying. It’s not a competition.

But it’s not suprising from a site that promotes unhealthy ministry and abuses the scriptures that it’s okay to abuse your church staff and ministers as well.

5   nc    
July 18th, 2008 at 4:56 pm

And to boot she is the wife of an Archbishop who presides over a deeply troubled time in our communion. Talk about kicking people when they are down.

Even as a pacifist, if someone spoke of my wife this way I’d be sorely tempted to find the resources to kick someone to the curb.

6   nc    
July 18th, 2008 at 4:58 pm

then again…
unless we’ve determined you’re standing on the bloodied ground of the reformers–not to urinate on it, mind you–then your family is fair game.

7   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 18th, 2008 at 5:04 pm

“Well, we’re guessing Jesus might ask her, “Where are the nail prints in your hands?”

Jesus would not ask her that, because He took the nails FOR her.

8   nc    
July 18th, 2008 at 5:37 pm

Mark this day, folks.
The next time any of these ministers start claiming “persecution”…you know what to ask….

9   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 18th, 2008 at 5:47 pm

American believers are ignorant of true persecution. Paul lists an incredible itinerary of attacks and then calls them “our light affliction”. Peter rejoices he was counted worthy to suffer for Christ’s sake.

Let someone say something unkind about us and we cry “foul”.

10   Sandman    
July 18th, 2008 at 5:59 pm

Talk about straining at gnats. “Editor” went through a whole lot of trouble to rebuke someone over the ultimate sin: being honest.

Such a lovely spirit on display.

If I recall correctly, Jesus didn’t call down a reckoning on Martha when she was running around the house like a chicken with her head cut off and complained to Him that Mary wasn’t helping.

11   nc    
July 18th, 2008 at 7:34 pm

It’s the epitome of the religious allergy to honesty…unless it’s about someone else.

12   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 18th, 2008 at 8:32 pm

Chris P,

Much ado about nothing.
How about some cheese to go with your whine?

So if someone wrote a hit piece against your wife you would not be upset.. you who call people names on your blog like “icky” for iggy and worse for others?

Grow up… please… grow up… let Jesus guide you guide.

iggy

13   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 18th, 2008 at 8:34 pm

The statement from the editor shows again that their Jesus is all about condemnation…

There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ.

When will the ODM’s come back to the Bible instead of imitating the world and its ways… pray for them.

iggy

14   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
July 18th, 2008 at 8:44 pm

Some of these people are not well. I mean, seriously, they are just not stable.

RAbanes

15   merry    
July 18th, 2008 at 8:51 pm

The archbishop of Canturbury is Catholic, right? I get my denominations mixed up . . . :)

If they’re Catholic, then would the folks over at CRN even believe this woman is a sister in Christ? Do they even see her as Christian?

If that’s their viewpoint, then that probably makes their response to her even more sad than it would have been, come to think of it.

Stable or not, much prayer is still needed. Honesty about the church sounds laughable, but is needed more than ever, and really sounds quite refreshing.

16   Chad    http://www.chadholtz.wordpress.com
July 18th, 2008 at 8:58 pm

Merry,
No, Rowan Williams is the archbishop of Canterbury in the Anglican communion (the Church of England). The American equivolent is Episcopalians.

But in either case, yes, his wife should be seen as a sister in Christ.

peace,
Chad

17   Chad    http://www.chadholtz.wordpress.com
July 18th, 2008 at 9:26 pm

Merry, i meant to also say: In the eyes of the writer of that article she might as well be Catholic. I am sure they see Anglicans as being just as lost….

18   merry    
July 18th, 2008 at 9:47 pm

Okay, so they aren’t Catholic. I was confused (obviously).

We are all lost. No denomination is perfect, or ever will be, even the most narrow minded and critical Prostestants. ;)

19   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
July 18th, 2008 at 10:11 pm

I’ve been out of pocket for a while–I went on vacation and left my laptop, my blog, etc. at home. It was great!

Anyway, can I ask an honest question: Why put so much effort into critiquing what is said at ONE site (CRN). Doesn’t all the “attention” just drive more people to their site and therefore increase the hits? And if they’re really as “[un]stable,” mean, spirit-less and grace-less as some commentors here have accessed, won’t their efforts eventually fail anyway? Why put all this effort into dissecting what they said? It’s ONE blog, that seems to have become the focuse of this blog. Seems like a waste of time and talent to me, but if that’s what “floats your boat…”

20   Jimmy    http://www.relevantchristian.com
July 18th, 2008 at 10:39 pm

I will have to be honest…I haven’t read an ODM blog in a long, long time.
I really don’t care what they are saying.
All it is is hate-mongering as far as I’m concerned.

Life is too short and precious to spend my time worrying about what they are saying now, or who they are accusing of what.

Let’s face it…they will never change…unless God changes them. They will remain mean spririted and self-righteous.

21   NathanG    http://www.nothing.com
July 18th, 2008 at 10:39 pm

Iggy wrote to Chris P.:
“So if someone wrote a hit piece against your wife you would not be upset.. you who call people names on your blog like “icky” for iggy and worse for others?

Grow up… please… grow up… let Jesus guide you guide.”

When did you start getting upset about hit pieces on people’s wives, Iggy? I saw your name as a commenter on the hate blog about Ingrid that Verum Serum posted about a few days ago. It was in the google cache at the time after the blog was deleted. The blog was so bad it was shut down under legal threats because of what it was posting about her, including personal photos and allegations about past drug use. Any thoughts? Have any idea what her husband might think about you and the guy doing it writing this about his wife?

22   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
July 18th, 2008 at 11:11 pm

I actually have a lawyer friend that will be contacting Mrs. Williams so that she can send Ken a letter about a “tort of false light” which I believe she sent to a blog that may or may not have had pictures of her up in High School. Then I’m going to have the same lawyer contact Rob Bell, Erwin McManus, Doug Pagitt, et al that he and Ingrid have attacked, lied about, mischaracterized, misrepresented, falsely accused and called cult leaders offering children to Molech.
When I’m done with all that I’m going to have him call Tim Reed, Owosso Mi and send said letter to John Chisam for his own veracity issues.
:)
Ingrid, this could be fun.

23   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
July 18th, 2008 at 11:15 pm

Nathan G,
I guess we could just ask her where the nail prints in her hands are…

24   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 19th, 2008 at 6:24 am

“And if they’re really as “[un]stable,” mean, spirit-less and grace-less as some commentors here have accessed, won’t their efforts eventually fail anyway?”

How very Calvinesque of you my friend. The same could be said for Rick Warren et al. If he is of the devil won’t his efforts fail as well? Then why critique him? And in a church setting, should someone who is consistantly uncharitable and unkind be called on it? We are called to police our own and not little girls we do not know – or care.

Besides, it’s better than TV! :cool:

25   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
July 19th, 2008 at 7:16 am

Rick:
I understand your point and would most likely agree, but when something becomes an obession–with little or no positive result that I can tell–maybe it’s time to switch to a different channel.

I gotta tell ya, a week without this…it was great. This blogging thing can really become a burden (for lack of a better/different word) if one isn’t careful.

26   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
July 19th, 2008 at 7:26 am

Keith,
This is probably the first post I’ve written concerning CRN in more than a month, if not longer. I generally don’t pay that much attention to them any longer, as I see them as sort of the equivalent of a two-year old taking a tantrum when he doesn’t get his way.

I guess this piece was just so viscious and hate-filled that it struck a nerve. As I said in my OP, I grew up in a pastor’s family, and around other pastors’ families, and Mrs. Williams description is pretty much spot-on. I would venture to guess that the kind of thinking exhibited in the article at CRN is what causes a large deal of the problems pastors face.

So no, I don’t really expect the people at CRN to change apart from a miraculous move of God. I can, however, illustrate their ignorance and malice so other see them for who they are and see their total lack integrity.

27   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 19th, 2008 at 7:41 am

NathanG ,

Ingrid is not just some one’s wife… she writes hate filled hit pieces against other people. My question is why do you defend her in that?

If someone is publicly attacking others, they let the stage in how they are addressed. Ingrid has stated quite a bit of hateful things publicly about me. I have even emailed her and we have discussed some of the things.

You may not realize I also have defended Ken and Ingrid when others state things as they are not saved or brothers or sisters in Christ.

So, while they attack and give people like me no grace, I do give them grace.

Do I always do things right. No… do you? Yet, to attack a pastors wife for stating what is true… in such a vicious way as to use Jesus to condemn her… is sick. You are defending CRN in using Jesus as a weapon to harm and hurt others…. is that right of you?

Jesus did not come to condemn the world, it was already condemned… he came to save it. Sites like Slice and CRN misuse Jesus to condemn others they see less worthy of grace than they seem to see themselves.

Again, you are defending the misuse and abuse of Jesus…. that is sad to me.

iggy

28   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 19th, 2008 at 7:48 am

BTW…

Stats on divorce…

Unchurched people… 50%
Churched people… 50%
Pastors… 67%

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm
http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/divorcedclergy.htm
http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/divorceis.htm

Instead of critising a pastors wife, why nto offer help in her hurt and struggles… why accuse her of being less of a servant than someone else?

It seems that to hurt and harm others is more important to Ken and Ingrid than to edify and encourage…

I just do not see that a Christ like.

iggy

29   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
July 19th, 2008 at 8:01 am

Phil:
I understand (I’m pretty sure) what you are saying.

To be totally honest with you, I still visit CRN and Apprising, not daily, but on a regular basis. I don’t always agree. The fact is, the post you referred to, I passed over because it didn’t look that interesting to me. I think they make some good points sometimes, just as much as I think that posts here (CRN.Info) make good points, but it’s the “tone” that intrigues/bothers me (both sides) sometimes.

I’ve been the recipient of verbal attacks/accusations. They hurt. I’ve found that my responding in kind or in a more terse manner usually doesn’t clear things up. People are gonna believe what they believe in most cases. My two cents.

30   Chris P.    
July 19th, 2008 at 8:15 am

iggy
A man who calls himself “iggy” telling me to grow up; that’s quite humorous.. This blog demonstrates the least maturity of any.

If it was a man whining, he would have received equal treatment.
No one would write a “hit piece” (more laughable rhetoric) against my wife, as she wouldn’t whine to the media, or anyone else, about the “hard” life of a minister.
You call this suffering? The western church is the bringer of suffering.
If y0u can’t handle it quit. Same for blogging.
I am only critical of blogs and bloggers, alleged leadership, such as are here, who claim to be leaders ansd know it alls. You are fair game, and so is the unscriptural Archbishiop of Canterbury. I have no problem taking a few hits for what I proclaim.

I say again, this post is one of the biggest wastes of time published here. You take your desperate efforts to insult the oh so mean odms to “dizzying heights”

31   Chris P.    
July 19th, 2008 at 8:23 am

“Yet, to attack a pastors wife for stating what is true… in such a vicious way as to use Jesus to condemn her… is sick. You are defending CRN in using Jesus as a weapon to harm and hurt others…. is that right of you?”

More over the top, false piety.]
It is a valid use of Jesus’ sufferings
Again this blog would make the same point if it was Ken or Ingrid they were writing about.

Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,

I don’t think Paul had the arch-bishop’s
complaints in mind.

32   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 19th, 2008 at 8:24 am

“I’ve been the recipient of verbal attacks/accusations.”

Keith – I have been systematically organizing a hit piece on you. I will post it soon. I was going to begin with Volume I, but I think Volume V is better to open with.

Volume I – Is Keith Really Saved
Volume II – Shallow Keith
Volume III – Heretical Keith
Volume IV – Keith’s Addiction
Volume V – Keith Rejects the Bible
Volume VI – Keith Exposed!
Volume VII – Keith – a Secret Health and Wealther
Volume VIII – The Conclusion (language alert)

*Copies will be made available upon request. :cool:

33   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
July 19th, 2008 at 8:55 am

Rick:
If you can let me know when you plan to publish, I might be available for a book-signing. We can work out the locations later.

34   Sandman    
July 19th, 2008 at 10:02 am

Let me know the locations as well. I’ve been making “Keith the Calvinist” stress dolls and people will often burn them in effigy on the spot.

They should be a big seller at the upcoming Renaissance Festivals, what with those old-fashioned torture techniques. I’m waiting for more stuffing for the life-size models.

Keith, I’m going to need your approximate height and weight.

(Keith, that was all humor; I sincerely mean you no harm at all.)

35   nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
July 19th, 2008 at 10:12 am

Keith,

Let me tell you first hand that what happens here is very helpful for some. I am a part of a church that is constantly being bashed by the ODMs. So many times a guest will attend one of our gatherings, and google our church name, or pastor’s name for more info. When they do this, the sixth search result is Apprising… filled with vile hate speech towards my pastor and really most of christendom. From there it is like Alice down the rabbit hole… link to link to link. I can think of a handful of people who have left The Church (universal) after reading this junk, being turned off by dead religion.

It is really great to have a place for some of these people to get the other story. There are a lot that I will point to CRN.info, and walk away saing “if these guys put us in the same camp as Billy Graham, Rick Warren and now Ray Comfort, then we are with good company.” There has to be someone speaking truth in the midst of all the lies.

36   Sandman    
July 19th, 2008 at 10:32 am

Iggy, re: divorce stats

One of my pastors covered this not too long ago, but he went a bit deeper, or at least a bit differently.

You have your secularists
You have your lower case c Christians (by default because they’re not Jews or pagans, but commitment to Christ)
You have your Chreaster Christians
Then you have those committed Christians who aattend church at least twice a month

The last group, according his research, had a divorce rate in the low single digits.

And they had better, more … fulfilling sex with each other.

37   Sandman    
July 19th, 2008 at 10:35 am

* but commitment to Christ should read “but no real commitment to Christ.”

38   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 19th, 2008 at 11:34 am

sandman,

And they had better, more … fulfilling sex with each other.

ODM’s seem to hate this… to them sex is just dirty… or a burden…

iggy

39   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 19th, 2008 at 11:38 am

“And they had better, more … fulfilling sex with each other.”

Where do they get that information? Do couples brag about it? And with whom do they compare to arrive at “better”? And what is the Biblically optimum number that the word “more” would reflect?

40   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 19th, 2008 at 12:11 pm

boy your nosey Rick… LOL!

41   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 19th, 2008 at 12:27 pm

“There has to be someone speaking truth in the midst of all the lies.”

Amen to that. Sites like e.g. AM, SoL, CRN, Pyros et al, which you guys bash here via “vile hate speech,” are happy to speak truth in the midst of all the lies put forth by postevangelicalism and the emerging church rebellion.

42   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
July 19th, 2008 at 12:42 pm

Sandman:
If word gets out at my office that your selling those “Keith Stress Dolls”…we’ll lets just say you better start making a LOT more of them!!!!

5′-11″; 190Lbs (I’m not proud of that either)

===
Nathan:
I understand what you’re saying, but again, doesn’t it sometimes just drive up the hits for those sites? And if you or others really don’t want people reading that stuff, doesn’t that mess things up a bit? Or am I missing something…honestly trying to understand.

===
Rick:
Those are ALL very good questions that deserve thoughtful responses. I, for one however, haven’t the foggiest idea where one would begin to gather such information. Being one of the “frozen chosen”, we don’t discuss such things in public! 8^)>

BTW, Gamaliel must have been a Calvinist as well (Acts 5:33ff)

43   Sandman    
July 19th, 2008 at 1:46 pm

36: It does seem like the baby is being thrown out with the bath water, but I wouldn’t go so far as to say that about ODMs exclusively, if at all. I believe I’ve heard Ingrid say on her show something to the tune of sex is a beautiful gift from God in the context of marriage.

But I know of a number of people who have who have hang-ups about sex. I think a big problem is that 1) people are more interested in the gift than the giver of the gift; 2) any gift can be abused ; and 3) I recall reading somewhere about how the early Gnostics believed sex (even among married people) was evil and piety came from ascetic living.

Leave it to Satan: Does everything to get people to have unmarried sex, and then does everything possible to keep you from having sex when you are married.

37: If couples can celebrate their union in a godly manner, I think they believe they shouldn’t have any guilt, shame or issues about discussing it. Of course there’s a time and place for that type of discussion…

It’s not bragging if you can do it.

Whoever is compiling the data is doing the comparisons.

more … fulfilling: Sorry, the ellipsis was me looking for the right word. More fulfilling meant the women were reporting having many more orgasms than those in the other groups. And the couples felt more emotionally bonded to each other.

44   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 19th, 2008 at 1:55 pm

“Better and more” is bragging and comparative. We are not of those who compare ourselves with ourselves.

Do they have “better and more” intercessory prayer?

45   andy    
July 19th, 2008 at 2:16 pm

Thats my church by birth,Catholic Merry tutttttttt lol

Are leave out what i think of him for politeness sake

;-)

46   Sandman    
July 19th, 2008 at 3:08 pm

39: Keith, I too share your concern about the unintended consequences, but on the other hand, a little yeast works its way through the whole lump of dough (and make the lump unstable) unless something is done to check its growth (salt will do that, but too much salt will kill the yeast and that’s not a good thing either).

My position is that the Gospel is offensive; that doesn’t mean we have to be equally offensive. We don’t have to agree on everything perfectly, and I don’t always agree with what’s posted here, at VS, CRN, or SoL. With all due respect, Ken doesn’t sound as bad on radio as he tends to comes across in print, and maybe that’s something he may choose to work on somedayso that how he reads comes across the same way in all media.

Another thing that’s troubling (yet totally their prerogative to do so) is this tendency to establish one-waycommunication by sounding off with (in the worst cases) a pronouncement, criticism, or damning statement about someone or some state of affairs, and allowing no comments on their site. So sites like this are set up that people visit where actual discussions can take place about what was posted on the site(s) where comments aren’t allowed, and BAM! this is called a hate site. But if that’s the case, where, and on whose site, did the hate begin?

47   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
July 19th, 2008 at 3:08 pm

Sites like e.g. AM, SoL, CRN, Pyros et al, which you guys bash here via “vile hate speech,” are happy to speak truth in the midst of all the lies put forth by postevangelicalism and the emerging church rebellion.

If they (AM, SoL, CRN, Pyros et al) are so happy to speak truth, why is truth such a rare commodity to ever be found on them (and even then, most often accidentally)?

48   Sandman    
July 19th, 2008 at 3:23 pm

Do they have “better and more” intercessory prayer?

I’m sure there are those who think they do.

As I said before, that would be “better and more fulfilling.” The parallel in your statement would be “better and more effective.”

And the people responding were neither bragging nor comparing; they simply stated what was, someone compiled the data and published the outcome.

49   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
July 19th, 2008 at 3:28 pm

CL: If they (AM, SoL, CRN, Pyros et al) are so happy to speak truth, why is truth such a rare commodity to ever be found on them (and even then, most often accidentally)?

RA: An actual “truth” is only a “truth” if it serves their agenda. However, at the same time, an actual “truth” that contradicts their twisted reality is summarily dismissed (or tweaked/perverted) to fit into their fantasy world — a new truth is made that is at least true to them.

This has all become terribly kooky to watch (even for someone like me who has been around some fairly bizarre stuff).

And it is wasting so much time to try and deal with their lies and slander. I spent far too much time yesterday putting together a simple response (”Hatred, Slander, Malice: Introducing Bud Press & Tim Wirth”) to the newest pack of lies I’ve had to refute — all because a couple of discerning hit-men have for some reason taken out a contract on my reputation. It’s pathetic. It’s libelous. It’s ungodly. It’s unbiblical.

R. Abanes

50   merry    
July 19th, 2008 at 3:37 pm

No offense intended at all, Andy, it’s just that there’s too many denominations and it’s driving me crazy!

*coughIpersonallyhavefamilywhoareCatholicandI’mprobablymuchmorecomfortable withtheirtheologythanmostProtestantsaretuttutatmeallyouwantIsupposeI’mnow Apostatecough*

Carry on! :)

51   Sandman    
July 19th, 2008 at 3:49 pm

Merry, look what you did!

52   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 19th, 2008 at 4:45 pm

“my reputation. It’s pathetic.”

He speaketh the truth.

53   merry    
July 19th, 2008 at 5:12 pm

It’s all better! :p

54   Sandman    
July 19th, 2008 at 5:41 pm

What a relief!

55   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 19th, 2008 at 6:41 pm

RIchard,

You could pull an Ingrid and get a lawyer and threaten to sue… but then they would just say you are being unbiblical… I mean Ingrid can do it and not be taken to task you should be able to…

But for some reason I suspect they would still lack an honest appreciation fo rthe high road if you don’t sue them.

I have been looking at what Paul states, and there is a ministry called Peacemakers here in Billings MT.

Here is part of the story.

Maybe you should take some of these guys to Peacemakers ministry who will assess it and then give their input and view of it. It would be interesting.

iggy

56   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
July 19th, 2008 at 7:53 pm

Problem is …. they don’t want peace. I’ve already tried, but I am in the enemy camp. There is no talking with me since I am not even considered in the Body of Christ now — that’s a convenient out:

“I have no common ground with Richard Abanes or do I desire to dialog with him. He is a member of Saddleback and a follower of Rick Warren. Sorry we don’t have anything in common to chat about.
Now Richard may dispute his being a follower of Rick Warren (of course Abanes will state he is a follower of Jesus Christ) but Richards actions of defending Warren all over the internet primarily instead of the Christain faith shows Richards true intentions. Note what I just said. Abanes defends Rick Warrens faith instead of the Christian faith. This I believe shows Richards true colors.” — Tim Wirth

There is no reason, as Wirth makes it very clear, to speak to someone with whom he has NOTHING in common — not even Jesus Christ. Get the point?

And yet, oddly, despite all that I have written theologically/doctrinally, Wirth has yet to produce any evidence that I am not in the house of faith — his only evidence is that I disagree with him about Warren being a heretic. I’d love to see THAT listed in the Bible somewhere as an indication of a person’s true faith.

R. Abanes

57   andy    
July 19th, 2008 at 8:03 pm

None taken Merry i was just teasing,
u did nothing i dont doubt ur the best of us!!

anyhow i’m too drunk to reply other then

Iggy ur a sarcastic prick u need to work on that

rick u run with the foxes and hunt with the hounds

goodbye and goodnight ur all

58   merry    
July 19th, 2008 at 8:04 pm

Richard is right, they don’t want peace, or unity, for that matter. It is the belief of fundamentalists that they should be “against” “apostate christians”, not unite with them. (Apostate Christians being anyone who doesn’t agree with them.) It’s basically a civil war, except they see it as a war against Satan.

What happened?

59   andy    
July 19th, 2008 at 8:06 pm

oh and ps richard u truley live up to
“theres only one thing worse then being spoken about! hahaha Jacob soooooooooooooo got ur number u brown hair shyster

60   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
July 19th, 2008 at 8:13 pm

andy: u brown hair shyster

RA: LOL. That ain’t the worst thing BY FAR that I’ve ever been called, you’ll have to do waaaayyyyy better. Check out teh sites of Bud Press, Tim Wirth, or ken Silva for some colorful ideas.

RAbanes

61   andy    
July 19th, 2008 at 8:22 pm

hell yeahhhhh the truth of the matter is i’m the worse of the lot of u, i aint trying to get points rich..Im a massive drunk loser rich it dont matter none …

but aint that the truth richard??? ur just worried about someone getting points off u or winning their little piss ass arguement????

62   andy    
July 19th, 2008 at 8:23 pm

hey Richard the worse thing anyone could say about u is ur not Christ like
u player

;-)

63   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
July 19th, 2008 at 8:27 pm

UHmmmmmm……oookay.

64   andy    
July 19th, 2008 at 8:28 pm

screw u little punk, sell another book u whore

65   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
July 19th, 2008 at 8:31 pm

Uhm, Andy?? Seriously, dude. Wassup with that?

RAbanes

66   andy    
July 19th, 2008 at 8:33 pm

f*** u ive left this faith

ive left this jokeeeeeeeeeeeee u chris ingrid ,ken igg y,rick the lot of u r screwed up

it aint no real world its some library where u argue

a joke

67   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
July 19th, 2008 at 8:39 pm

Andy,

Feel free to leave me, Chris, Ingrid, iggy, and Rick and whoever else. That’s not the issue. This is not Richianity, or Iggyanity, or Ingridianity, or Chrissyanity.

It’s about Jesus. So what did he ever do to you that makes him deserve an F bomb? Seems that he’s never done a thing except love you enough to die for your sins. That doesn’t seem to bad.

And, as for me, if I’ve done something. Spell it out. I don’t even know who you are, really. But whatever I have personally done, that doesn’t mean it’s changed Jesus one bit. Don’t use me/others as an excuse to stop following God.

That’s a cop out. If we’re the only thing that’s bugging you, fine — tell us to !$@%$. But then go to Christ and look to him to take you where he wants you to go with him.

RA

68   andy    
July 19th, 2008 at 8:47 pm

Seems that he’s never done a thing except love you enough to die for your sins

he didnt die for my sins u joker,,”he” created me into this mess and then said i have to believe in him to get out of this mess it makes no sense..

Anyhow im following someone else now anyhow goodluck with it

im sorry for my drunken rant

69   andy    
July 19th, 2008 at 8:50 pm

and to be honest im not lying iggy is sarcastic,rick does run with the foxes and the hounds and u r a whore

;-)

70   andy    
July 19th, 2008 at 8:59 pm

ok im sorry im being rude…

I’m not a christian any longer and theirs no need to reply to me

just let my post slide

bye all i wish u all well

71   merry    
July 19th, 2008 at 9:00 pm

Andy, please go sleep it off and come back tomorrow when you are thinking clearly. I think everyone here would greatly appreciate it. Really, I don’t appreciate reading that kind of language and complete nonsense. Some of us would kind of like to have a serious discussion that makes sense.

72   merry    
July 19th, 2008 at 9:01 pm

Is this what happens to Church of Englanders on a regular basis? ;)

73   andy    
July 19th, 2008 at 9:01 pm

hmmm thats so odd Merry ur husband says its just cultural

74   andy    
July 19th, 2008 at 9:03 pm

and for talkin nonsense u just got to lean over in bed

75   andy    
July 19th, 2008 at 9:03 pm

come on merry show me christ ;-)

76   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
July 19th, 2008 at 9:06 pm

Actually, I’d rather talk to someone like Andy then someone like Ken Silva — at least Andy is being honest. That’s a good place to start.

Andy, we can talk anytime. And you can say whatever you want to say to me. I don’t really care. What I care about is you knowing Jesus, and discussing the “mess” your so you can get out of it. And friend, this ain’t the way out — Jesus is the only way out.

And trust me — I don’t live in some library.

RA

77   andy    
July 19th, 2008 at 9:07 pm

haha rich trying to be christ like oh bless

78   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
July 19th, 2008 at 9:12 pm

No, not trying. Being. You can take it, or leave it. It is what it is. I have my faith. I live my faith. I do my best. Sometimes I fail. Sometimes I don’t. No games. Just life. Just humanness. Just keeping it real. You want to hate me? Fine. Figure out a reason to hate Jesus — I don’t think you’ll find one.

RA

79   andy    
July 19th, 2008 at 9:14 pm

hahaha thats the rub though Rich u say ur being, but ur own family say ur not even part of the family..

lolll what a bunch

80   andy    
July 19th, 2008 at 9:15 pm

oh i dont hate u fool i dont even know u

81   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 19th, 2008 at 9:21 pm

Richard Abanes: “someone like Ken Silva”

Nothing like being judmental. You haven’t the slightest clue as to what I’m like.

82   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
July 19th, 2008 at 9:27 pm

andy : hahaha thats the rub though Rich u say ur being, but ur own family say ur not even part of the family..

RA: Yeah, I hear you. And the Jews crucified Jesus, too. Ain’t it a……bear.

RA

83   andy    
July 19th, 2008 at 9:28 pm

(((((Really, I don’t appreciate reading that kind of language)))))))

come on Merry fess up whats the differences me cussing then ur husband???

I’m a sinner i’m just doing what i’m suppose to do …

I think they call that being a hypocrite

84   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
July 19th, 2008 at 9:29 pm

LOL

I am still laughing over the hypocrisy of taking someone to law over ’slander’ when that is all this site and its authors do so often.

Go ahead, Joe Martino. The Bible clearly says that we are no to go to law against one another as Christians. Of course your ‘Pastor’ could deconstruct the verse so you could justify it…LOL

It is Pathetic how this site rails in hatred against CRN , Apprising, and SOL. See what an example you have been to Andy and countless others. Its pathetic.

And someone on this thread threatening to beat a person for speaking words to his wife? How is that any different that telling someone to shove a log? LOL

hypocrisy. Pure. Unadulterated. CRN.info

85   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
July 19th, 2008 at 9:33 pm

Andy,

I will talk to you anytime, drunk or sober. If you are mad at the church, I don’t blame you. This site is a lousy example of the church in action. Please forgive we who call ourselves Christians. I wish to apologize for the actions of myself and others sincerely to you, my British friend.

86   andy    
July 19th, 2008 at 9:34 pm

come on now pb don’t use me, ur part of the disease

ur turning me off Christ as much as anyone

87   merry    
July 19th, 2008 at 9:35 pm

Andy, I’ll talk to you when you aren’t completely intoxicated. Until then, my efforts will be pointless.

If I had a husband (which I don’t, and he doesn’t cuss), I wouldn’t even be on here. Sometimes I look forward to the day . . .

Andy, seriously, turn off your computer and go to bed. Until then, you’re just wasting my time.

(Seriously, I don’t know about this website sometimes . . . do we have moderators?!)

88   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
July 19th, 2008 at 9:35 pm

I am sorry, Andy. Truly. I wish I could come to the pub and buy you a drink and describe how sincerely sorry I am, my friend.

89   merry    
July 19th, 2008 at 9:39 pm

Pastorboy,

Your (slightly sarcastic, maybe?) comments aren’t really going to help anybody. Maybe we ALL should get off the computer and go to bed.

(And please, next time whoever moderates these comments logs on, is there such a thing as a delete button for some of this foolishness? I’m all for showing Christ to people, but right now I’m finding all this a bit ridiculous.)

Wow.

90   andy    
July 19th, 2008 at 9:40 pm

haha merry ur single wowee ur perfect :-p

hmmmm maybe ive confused u with tims wive is that ur dad??

come on merry im english whats a bottle of whiskey to me???

91   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
July 19th, 2008 at 9:42 pm

Nah Merry, not sarcastic.

But is this title satire? I mean really- Taking self righteousness to dizzying new heights? That should be the tagline at this site instead of Seeking Justice, Mercy and Faithfulness Amidst Persecution From Within (Matt 23:23)
LOL!!

92   andy    
July 19th, 2008 at 9:44 pm

come on Merry what u care, ive got to face the intellectual replies from everyone tomorrow and are feel a inch tall

;-)

93   andy    
July 19th, 2008 at 9:45 pm

I’m all for showing Christ to people, but right now I’m finding all this a bit ridiculous

<<< duh then why reply dumb as american

94   merry    
July 19th, 2008 at 9:47 pm

Ah, I see. Andy, you’re thinking of Mandy Reed. I am related to no one at this site.

Pastorboy, aren’t we all a little self righteous when you think about it? I mean, I know I am, but what about everyone else?

I thought the title was appropriate. ;) But that’s just my opinion.

95   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
July 19th, 2008 at 9:47 pm

Hey Andy,
Give it up for now. I’m putting you on moderation until your’re able to say something intelligent.

96   andy    
July 19th, 2008 at 9:48 pm

screw u

97   andy    
July 19th, 2008 at 9:50 pm

so really ur offended at chris and tim for saying cussin is cultural???

98   andy    
July 19th, 2008 at 9:51 pm

amazing moderation u shyster

99   andy    
July 19th, 2008 at 9:51 pm

hahah this is such fun

100   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 19th, 2008 at 9:52 pm

Thank you, Phil. No one who is just giving place to a drunken tongue should be given the privilege of commenting.

Let us all make no mistake, on our best day we are all poor mirrors of our Savior. Such is the nature of grace.

101   merry    
July 19th, 2008 at 9:53 pm

Phil saves the day.

Thank you, Phil. ;)

Can we get back to intelligent discussion now?

102   andy    
July 19th, 2008 at 9:54 pm

no

103   andy    
July 19th, 2008 at 9:55 pm

rich u snake ur more honest with a drunk like me ,then u r with half the shysters here

104   andy    
July 19th, 2008 at 10:00 pm

merry aint that the truth ur more concerned with intelligent discussion , then a convo with a sinner like me ur christ like no doubt

;-)

105   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 20th, 2008 at 2:49 am

PB,

I am still laughing over the hypocrisy of taking someone to law over ’slander’ when that is all this site and its authors do so often.

Yep I laughed too when I heard what Ingrid had done to get a website down… sad that she turned to the world and used lawyers… but then that what I keep saying about you guys John, you use the way of the world, slander and defamation of character to rip and shred others. Glad you finally see it the way I do and acknowledge it is hypocrisy… and Ingrid did it.

Andy, sober up dude… if you are defending the ODM’S I THINK THIS IS GREAT AS IS ALSO SHOWS THE HYPOCRICY! LOL!

Seriously though I think you have some major issues and need Jesus to help you. My sincere prayers are with you and I hope whatever your hurt is you can turn to Jesus for help and guidance.

Iggy ur a sarcastic prick u need to work on that

BTW I am not sure what you actually mean by this… that I need to get better doing it or not do it so much… and it may surprise you I agree with the latter. I do need to work on my attitude as I often am “a sarcastic prick .”

Peace.
iggy

106   andy    
July 20th, 2008 at 3:57 am

wowow damn i was drunkkkkk

1) iggy i like u, ur honest ..

2)rick good for u for calling me out !!uve never done it for chads “we all get to heaven”,evans rantings or nathens “god dont know the future” but helll im sure gods proud of u making ur stand against me lollll..

3)for merry its been agreed here that cussin is not a sin, its just cultural if u dont like it tough

and merry for the best quote ive read here GB u

“i’m all for showing the love of Christ buttttttt”

and lastly it goes without saying i’m the biggest shyster here

bye see u on the other side!!

107   andy    
July 20th, 2008 at 4:13 am

oh and truly lastly i’m a drunk i’m addicted , i could do with ur prayers

bye

108   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
July 20th, 2008 at 6:27 am

Hey John,
Ingrid already deconstructed that verse for me when she threatened legal action. Besides, you’ve said in other places that we can’t take someone’s word that they are a Christian, so maybe I could take you to court b/c you’re not really a Christian? John, you need serious help.

109   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 20th, 2008 at 6:38 am

I will never understand how we can justify using lawyer when someone speaks evil of us or smears our reputation. We are not supposed to have any reputation. They called the Savior “Beelzebub” but we bristle when we are offended.

We “American” Christians have constructed our own definition of persecution. We very often act no differently that the unbelievers when tested in an uncomfortable area, and then turn around and claim persecution. there never would have been a Foxes Book of Martyrs if it depended upon us.

110   Salamir    http://biblegateway.com
July 20th, 2008 at 6:44 am

Pastorboy,
When you were accused of slander in an earlier commenting thread did you not state that if it truly was slander they should sue you to prove it, otherwise it was kosher?

Perhaps you ought not be hiding behind one sin in order to justify another.

111   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 20th, 2008 at 10:00 am

Andy,

My prayers are with you…

igs

112   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
July 20th, 2008 at 11:25 am

KEN: Nothing like being judgmental. You haven’t the slightest clue as to what I’m like.

RA: I noted very precisely exactly WHY I’d rather talk to Andy, rather than you. Read again.

RA

113   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 20th, 2008 at 12:12 pm

RA: I noted very precisely exactly WHY I’d rather talk to Andy, rather than you. Read again.

Please tell us that you’re only pretending to be this dense. And I noted very precisely WHY you’re being judgmental.

You read again because you haven’t the slightest clue as to what I’m like.

114   andy    
July 20th, 2008 at 1:28 pm

thks iggy hmmmm drinkin is kind of tough in UK its everywhere…

but are be ok GB

Sheesh i think i’d rather talk to Ken then me, but he is my friend lol

hmmmm anyhow sorry to Rick and Merry and Richard ,Phil and anyone else…And to To Tim and his wive espeically

sorry i’m a fool

115   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
July 20th, 2008 at 5:13 pm

Andy,

“Sheesh i think i’d rather talk to Ken”

Then read the email I sent to you last night. :-)

116   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
July 20th, 2008 at 6:11 pm

THE ODM COMMENT GUIDE

Five Approved Comments:

1. You are sooooo right.
2. Keep standing brother
3. I agree totally
4. How timely
5. You are a remnant leader

Five Rejected Comments:
1. Isn’t that a little harsh
2. I don’t see it that way
3. I don’t think Bell is the Antichrist
4. But Warren does some good
5. Where is God’s love in that

Please memorize to avoid any personal embarrassment.

117   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
July 20th, 2008 at 8:31 pm

Andy,

We are all fools that need Jesus… and if you are a believer there is no condemnation in Christ.

We all slip, mess up and do stupid things. Yet, that proves even more that we need a Jesus, for where sin abounds, Grace abounds more.

This should encourage us even in our down time… that we are still loved and accepted by Jesus. This should then encourage us to press in deeper into Him.

That is the danger of the ODM message and using Jesus as a way to abuse and condemn others. Jesus did not come to condemn an already condemned world…. He came to save it… and by it I mean YOU! If we condemn others we are not being like Jesus… we are holding the kindness of God in contempt. The message of Ken and Ingrid and others is most often condemnation in the Name of Jesus… The ones they attack most often hold out the message of Hope and the power to over come sin by the loving kindness of Jesus.

Be blessed,
iggy

118   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
July 20th, 2008 at 8:56 pm

IGGY: if you are a believer there is no condemnation in Christ.

RA: Hence, the need for various ODMs to take their enemies out of the realm of believers — then they can be condemned. Kewl, huh?

Tim Wirth and Bud Press are two of the worst at cutting people out of the Body of Christ if those people disagree with them. Just today, we have this new post titled False Brethern.

Basically, it’s about Rick Warren and me (thank you, thank you, no applause please) being false brethren. That’s nice and convenient.

And I also have the distinction of being not only a false Christian, but a “problem and danger.”

Oh, and for those of you who might read Wirth’s garbage, he says: “Richard then goes on to mock Bud’s service to our country in the special forces through his own Abanes innuendo.”

Actually, this is also untrue. Sad. Wirth has gotten to a place where he can’t even understand English. I love the military, and our men/women who have served. My own family has a military history. My point was that when soldiers come home, they need to stop acting like soldiers, especially if they enter the ministry.

IGGY, good luck trying to get your points across. It is all getting very hot now.

RAbanes