Friends,
I wanted my first post here at CRN.info to be a spectacular essay–and it will be–but in the meantime this has been bugging me lately. I am hesitant to write this because I don’t want to be perceived–oh, whatever, perceive away. I am happy to be writing for CRN.info and help these brave souls share the grace and love of Christ.
First, at a happy blog I sometimes visit, Always Ready, I came across this lamentby blogger Samuel Guzman, sometimes guest blogger at Slice and proprietor of the amazingly special Reformata. He wrote:
Thank you, John Piper, for articulating what has been on my heart so often recently. Why is their so little love of God and zeal for the truth among young people today? Let’s get over emotional buzzes and realize that God deserves our everything…not just a trip to a hip youth conference with a famous speaker. He deserves more than a t-shirt or bumper sticker or a week long “missions” trip to some exotic location.
I can’t believe that’s what he actually believes! Is this guy living under a rock? Last week, at Junior High camp, I had four kids from Kentucky Christian University helping me. You know these four uncommitted, un-zealous young people gave up their entire summer to travel for the college, sleep in rustic cabins, eat camp food, live on the road, travel across several states preaching, teaching, leading music, praying, playing games, sharing the love of Christ with other young people who give up a week of their lives to be at Church camp? My own son gave up a week of Boy Scout camp in New York to be at church camp! Samuel, what young people are you talking about?
As I will demonstrate in my first real post it is not young people who lack zeal and love for God or truth, but actually there is an entire generation missing from the church. It’s not young people who are ripping the church apart by abandoning orthodoxy. It’s not young people who are missing the point of ‘I desire mercy not sacrifice.’
I do agree with one part of Guzman’s post: God does deserve more than a conference, or t-shirt, or bumper sticker, or week long missions trip. Perhaps the esteemed Rev Guzman also agrees that God deserves more than a blog that does little more than rip apart the body of Christ, cut down the people among whom God has chosen to live, and a little better than the sentimental emotionalism, borderline narcissistic preaching of a Paul Washer. (Although, when I pointed this out at my own blog, I was reminded that Paul Washer also once did ‘missions’ work among Gypsies. So I guess missions work is valid as long as you are in the right camp and in the right ‘exotic’ location.) Guzman’s statements are simply full of, uh–what’s a charitable way of saying this?–stupidity? Where did anyone ever suggest that t-shirt Christianity was enough? OH, but handing out CD’s is a profoundly effective way of ‘reaching the lost’ (that way we don’t have to actually talk to them and hear their story.) I have heard, in recent days, that many hungry and naked and dying people have found new life, and new hope–not to mention clothing, food, and medicine–in compact disks (but not in Blue Rays; sorry.) This is especially helpful when the poor, downtrodden, hungry, and sick have tons of money to throw away on new compact disk players.**
I’m sorry about that ’stupidity’ thing. I should have used a different adjective like meaningless, or absurd, or apples and oranges, or strawman. Yes, that’s it.
On the other hand, I also came across this post at Reformed Voices a week or so ago:
“You see young men listen to me, there is a reformation going on in this country. There is a real reformation. I’m not talking about the church growth six flags over Jesus entertainment type of reformation or revival. I’m not talking about the media charismatic type of revival. But I travel all over this country, I travel all over the world, I visit many universities and I am seeing quite an amazing thing, that even in secular universities when I go there to speak, I see 100-150 young men and women reading Edwards and Spurgeon and more importantly the Apostle Paul and reading him rightly.
There is a reformation occurring. And God has done it, and He will do it.” (Paul Washer, in a sermon called Regeneration and Self-Denial.)
Well, aside from the inherent Washer worship, I guess there is much to be thankful for in this quote. 100-150 people reading Spurgeon and Edwards has to be a boon for the church at some level. The problem is, Washer and Piper (Guzman is referencing thoughts by Piper) seem to be at odds. Washer seems to think that libraries full of eggheads reading Spurgeon and Edwards is equivalent to a Day of Pentecost type of revival or a 95 Theses sort of reformation; Piper seems to think that all the young people are going to hell in a hand-basket because they are so unloving, uncommitted, and anti-everything high church, Calvinist, orthodoxy and that the church is suffering because they are ‘no where to be found.’ Fellas, fellas! Which is it? Are we in the midst of revival or not? Are young people getting it or not? Why can’t you even agree on what God is and is not doing?
I am sorry about that ‘egghead’ thing. I should have used an adjective like college-student-who-has-a-lot-of-reading-to-do-over-the-weekend or college-student-trying-to-avoid-a-Paul-Washer-emotionapalooza or college-student-who-has-no-social-life-at-all.
Chris Rosebrough recently made an offer that he would personally pay anyone $10,000 if they can demonstrate, from the Bible, the claims of Creflo Dollar that the rich, young ruler actually went and sold his property and was, consequently, blessed by the Lord. Well, I have a little offer of my own: I will personally pay anyone $10.00 if they can find a Bible Verse demonstrating that God has promised revival or reformation to all who read Spurgeon and Edwards in college libraries. (Sorry, I don’t have as much money as Chris as I am just a pathetic young, uncommitted, Christian preacher trying to eek out a living for 5 people on under $40K a year.)
Paul Washer: Prove yourself!
Samuel and Philip, I plead with you to agree in the Lord! Come together and form a consensus on whether or not something is going on in this world of churchianity.
My point to this post is simply this: Here are two people who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. I refer to those four young people who spent a week with me and their entire summer as evidence.
jerry
*sarcasm offered free of charge. And yet, I don’t think the sarcasm is too far off point. Do you?
PS–My comments reflect only thoughts on the posted quotes. I did not watch the youtube vid posted at Always Ready nor did I read the entire sermon by Washer. I am only commenting on the responses by Guzman and Philip.
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
107 Comments(+Add)
I hate to break the news but you esteemed gentlemen are simply becoming the inverse of what you have so fixated on.
Jerry,
Sam Guzman is not the one being stupid here. If you knew him personally, as I do, you would know that his words come from a heart of passion for God, simply longing to see his generation do more for the Lord than attending conferences or simply going on week long mission trips.
Clearly,
I’m glad you know him. In fact, I am happy beyond imagination. What I’m not happy about is his over-generalizations about things he, apparently, doesn’t understand. I’m not sure what younger people he is talking about so perhaps he could point a few of them out to the rest of us instead of whining about it. Besides, is that the point of my post? The point of my post is that Piper and Washer seem to be at odds with one another.
Finally, I didn’t say that Guzman is being ’stupid.’ I said his statements are full of ’stupidity.’ There’s a difference. Thanks for the reply.
jerry
Good job, Jerry. Nice start. Pick on a 20-year-old college kid with the same nasty tone you use in the comment section for anyone else you disagree with. What a lot of pride you have. Sam’s observations are completely wrong, he’s never seen anything worth commenting on among kids his age, his perspective should be thrown under a bus and treated as stupid. The sweetness of Jesus really flows at this blog. Way to go, Sam. I know exactly what you’re talking about as our Southern Baptist Church is stuffed with kids who go on adventure/missions trips to annoy missionaries for a week or two after begging for months that everyone fund their “missionary work”. Truth is, nobody’s paid a price for Jesus in this country and until we have to, this is going to be the main kind of christianity we see.
Clearly, you said:
I am glad you said this. Having just been to your blog I have to ask: Do you know Rob Bell personally? As much as you talk about him I assume you must by your above comment.
peace,
Chad
Ken,
Can you show me the mathematical equation that proves your point?
Nathan,
I didn’t know Samuel was a 20 year old college kid. I assume by your saying this you are lumping him in with that group he laments. You know, the lazy, t-shirt wearing, mission tripping kids who do not really love God or have any zeal for him? That explains a lot.
I didn’t ‘pick’ on a 20 year old. I wrote a brief blog post about a disagreement between the Rt Rev Paul Washer and John Piper asking which of them is closer to the truth. Besides, if Guzmam posted it at his blog, it is fair game. I wrote about the post, not about a person. I stated this quite specifically in the PS part of my post.
On the other hand, it hardly makes sense to me for someone to lament that young people, especially young men, have no committment or zeal of love or willingness to sacrifice and then rip them apart because they give of themselves to go on mission trips and learn the hard life of raising support, sacrificing comfort, leaving behind family, etc. That, Ken, is the inverse of good reasoning.
The Scripture does say something about judging another’s servant.
Oh, want some help discovering what the younger generation of men and women are doing for Christ? Check this out Hands and Feet Project. That’s a start. I’ll bet the kids being helped by these young people don’t think these young people lack love or zeal.
As usual, you have missed the point of the post, but I’ll play the game.
jerry
If only young Samuel’s mother had the same sense of propriety you do.
Ken,
I’m having a hard time understanding your statement. I thought inverse, colloquially at least, meant opposite. Which means that CRN.info is the opposite of an ODM. Isn’t that the point?
Or were you being sarcastic?
Honestly, at this point, I have a difficult time understanding anything you write, whether it’s here, or, especially, at Apprising Ministries.
Hopefully it’s just me.
MG
Actually what he is saying is that this site has become what it claims to fight against. It claims that ODM’s are hypocritical, judgemental, and persecute the church. They do the very same at this site, this OP being a prime example.
CRN.info- Taking self righteousness to dizzying new heights!
PB,
Like when you said that Ingrid was hypocritical for using lawyers to shut down a website that said (so called) mean things about her?
Really Ken has become incoherent… and you seem unable to tell what you own peeps are doing! LOL!
We are all hypocrites PB… even you… the difference is here the writers acknowledge that as biblical truth and you do not.
iggy
Pastorboy-
So I take it you would at the very least agree that being “hypocritical, judgmental, and persecut[ing] the church” is not a good thing and is akin to “taking self righteousness to dizzying new heights,” right?
Math for ya:
You don’t know me + You do the same thing + I’m commissioned by the Lord to assail anyone I want – Grace – Humility / philosophical approaches to faith = does not compute.
Chris,
Thanks for clearing that up for me. I appreciate the math lesson at 9:32 AM on my day off from work. If only Pastor Silva had been as kind.
jerry
You know, Pee Wee Herman was just brilliant. The old “I know you are but what am I” defense just never gets old.
Phil,
I get it! PB is saying being those things are good as if this site has become just like those other ones…
Or PB is saying that it is good for him and his friends to be hypocrites and this site is bad for it…
Or…
Again, this is the ODM syndrome… just when you figure them out, they confuse one with their messy and squishy theology…
iggy
So John Piper has for years been one of the featured speakers at Louie Giglio’s Passion conferences…gatherings of thousands of college students for prayer and worship. How does that fit in??
How about taking unrighteousnes to new lows?
Who’s a hypocrite? I am who I am wherever, and whenever. I could care less what you, or anyone else thinks about me.
BTW the scriptures ays all men are sinners and fall short. It also says none seek the Lord. It does not say all men are hypocrites. Hypocrites are those who spew the bilge of self righteous piety.
Of course Chad uses the famed argument of all liberals, re: Rob Bell.
Sam G. isn’t presenting himself as a “pastor”. He isn’t writing books, and he isn’t going “on tour” to promote himself and his philosophy.
Who and what Bell is, is known by all who who wish to follow along in the media.
I don’t think Sam is sweating over this post.
It should be apparent by now that this blog serves no purpose at all.
Inverse:
Reversed in position, order, direction, or tendency.
Dictionary.com
Corey,
Irony.
And Washer is speaking, according to his own testimony, at college campi all around the world.
ATTN: We have found Samuel Guzman’s lost generation: They are in the libraries where Paul Washer speaks reading books instead of serving the Lord by loving people.
Why is Paul Washer going to all these exotic locations all around the world on these short term mission trips? Speaking at all these conferences? Who is he begging money from to pay for them? What college presidents is he annoying with these trips?
jerry
Jerry,
Can you show me the mathematical equation that disproves my point?
Ken,
My opinion of others’ published thoughts+my seeking of clarification because there seems to be confusion in the camp+my asking of questions to get to the root of the assertions made by others+a certain amount of humility in asking the question to begin with=a mathematical equation refuting your opinion.
Not to mention that I actually agree with part of Guzman’s post. Or did you miss that?
PS–I want to make clear that this post IS NOT ABOUT SAM GUZMAN or PHILIP at Reformed Voices. It is about Paul Washer and John Piper and their confusion about whether or not there are young people being moved by the Spirit of God.
jerry
What “argument” are you talking about?
And how do you define “liberal”?
Ken = Uses Jesus to abuse and condemn others.
Jesus = Did not come to condemn an already condemned world but to save it…. and there is no condemnation for those in Christ.
Ken loses… Jesus wins!
iggy
Slice 1.0 1.2 1.3 + Apprising + A little Leaven + Old Truth + Extreme Theology + Team Pyro + Purpose Drivel + Lighthouse + White Horse Inn + Christian Worldview Network + Cross TV + etc, etc, etc… – CRN.info = Balanced Equation!
Who knew I could be so thankful for inversion…?
Chris,
you are a much better mathmetician than I am. haha.
jerry
Honestly, this post could only have been better if Steve Camp had been in the hoo-ha with all this…
“Confusion in the camp”. Would’ve been a lovely play on words.
lol nc
Sure it does, Chris. Where else could you so freely vent your spleen? At least we allow comments here…
By the way, I think you could really use an outlet for your anger. Perhaps watercolor or tennis? Ever thought of taking up golf?
Hmmm…
RE: Mr. Washer.
Who knew? I mean where would the Gospel be if it weren’t for Edwards and Spurgeon?
I love how Edwards and Spurgeon precede the reading of Paul–and reading it correctly no less!
Chad, I am obviously not trying to communicate that you must personally know someone in order to take issue with them. I was simply trying to provide some personal background on Sam Guzman for an otherwise small quote (I would think that a website full of postmodern sympathizers would understand the need for a reference frame). Sam hasn’t written entire books, produced a weekly podcast, etc. for you to know where he stands…
Phil…
Come out and be ye separate. Chris P’s church is emergent and Purpose Driven. Light has no fellowship with darkness.
Be not unequally yoked in “conversation” with him.
Beloved.
Elect.
Remnant.
Standing on bloodied ground,
nc
Clearly,
And yet it would seem you concede that knowing someone personally, in at least some mysterious way, can make a big difference in how we view someone’s position on various topics and even their hearts, yes?
You devote a lot of time and energy on your blog in tearing apart Rob Bell, even linking him to writing fortune cookies. So I just wanted to know if you knew him personally and I wonder if you have ever considered that in the same way knowing Sam might help a person know their heart for the lost that knowing Rob personally might convince you that he doesn’t write fortune cookies (or match any number of your descriptors for him).
thanks,
Chad
Clearly,
So basically, Sam shouldn’t be held to the same standard he’s holding others to. OK, I got it…
Seriously, this kind of craziness is what happens when you think there are different classes of Christians.
Nathan
“Chris P’s church is emergent and Purpose Driven.” Confessor I didn’t know you had personally gone to Chris P’s church.
I mean, now we can’t very well just go by websites ‘n’ stuff. Ya gots to go there in person and talk with each and every one in the leadership to know for sure. Right…
Letting your faith be based on your own understanding and your personal view of theology is a dangerous place to be… That is what I keep trying to let these guys know. It is about Jesus not what you know… It is about Truth not your own relativistic perspective of it based on you preference of doctrines…
It is dangerous as it separates Jesus from the Bauble… and Truth from Jesus and… it all gets confused.
Pastorboy refused to give me an answer as to whose truth I should follow… when I give three names who preach “Truth” and all of them disagree, he will not give an answer to which truth is truthier… LOL!
He can’t and won’t for it exposes him for what he is and he knows it.
iggy
No I am not from the deep south… that should be bible! LOL!
LOL… No one, and I mean no one, gets between Jesus and His Bauble. Whatever that means…
At least be consistent and show some humility in either case. Don’t go bashing people you have never met and then cry foul when someone comments on something one of your “good guys” writes or says by claiming you have to get to know him or her before you really understand.
Perhaps all parties can excercise a bit of humilty and charity towards any person who earnestly strives to serve Jesus Christ as Lord, regardless of whether or not we fully agree with everything they say, write or do.
Chad,
And don’t forget we all need to get back to our Baubles…
iggy
Ken,
It’s a running joke of mine…
One should if they make money attacking and slandering others…
Ken,
btw, if you need a listening ear I’m happy to be your confessor too.
When I first read that “typo” I thought it was a brilliant pun referring to our BABELS.
It is interesting how we use the Bible similar to the ways people have tried to “become like god” and be over and above others. For many people I suspect their Bible is their Babel, forgetting that the Bible contains the gospel, not the other way around.
add to the above….
Instead of building Babel with bricks we now use doctrines.
Brilliant!
I was attacked because I asked which doctrine was nailed to the cross to forgive us?.. which doctrine rose from the grave and saved us?
The guy could not get that without Jesus there is just bad doctrine and all sound doctrine comes from Jesus…
The rest we can debate… in all humility…
iggy
Clearly,
You wrote:
He stands with Pastor Silva and Mrs Schleuter. That tells all we need to know about where he stands.
jerry
I wonder what the quota of published material must be before someone can cast aside getting to know a person before demonizing them? Who sets the bar?
I was on Sam’s blog and he seems to write quite a bit and have some strong opinions on issues and people. Clearly says:
I wonder if Sam agrees with this? Clearly seems to want everyone to give him deference because if you “really knew” him we would all know the heart of passion for God he has (which I do not doubt). But does Sam believe that if he “really knew” the people he speaks out against that perhaps, just perhaps, they too might have a heart of passion for God and the lost just as he does?
Clearly,
You also wrote:
Just so you know, since I haven’t yet posted a picture or bio of myself, I preach in a very conservative, still using piano and organ on Sundays, still serving communion every Sunday, building still has a steeple and pews type of church. And, to be sure, I am not in any way ‘emergent.’ I’d like to believe that I was asked to be a writer here not because I have any particular sympathies for any particular group, but rather because I love Jesus and am caught in the grip of His grace.
I am critical of people who make broad generalizations about others. Guzman’s generalizations about young people betray two things about Guzman: His ignorance of the wider world and his arrogance about his own position–as if he were Elijah or a martyr because he has a blog linked at SOL. I may not be ‘emergent’, and I may love the writings of DA Carson and David Wells, but I also love the writings of Mike Yaconelli and Eugene Peterson. I also love the writing of Annie Dillard and St John of the Cross and the preaching of Voddie Baucham and Walter Kaiser.
My point being, unless I have totally misunderstood the point of this blog, the men who write here do not write here because they agree with everything emergent or everything postmodern or everything Rob Bell or because they disagree with everything John Piper or Paul Washer or Michael Horton. They write here because they believe in and understand God’s grace and they are tired of people like SOL and AM and PB using God’s law to trump God’s grace–as if we are saved by some magic ability of our own to keep the law.
jerry
Some of Washer’s preching is good, but he uses sensationalism such as “The Message that will Insure I won’t get Asked Back!”. Many Calvinists do not believe in revival as I would understand it. Reading dead preachers means nothing.
Calvinism seems to breed self righteousness sometimes. Lots of love for doctrine and little love for sinners. Telling people they are going to hell does not prove your love for sinners, unless you consider Fred Phelps the most loving man in America.
All who make sweeping generlizations are entirely wrong…
Jerry – Amen.
Guzman said this in a discussion with me at clearly’s blog:
This was my response:
“He stands with Pastor Silva and Mrs Schleuter. That tells all we need to know about where he stands. ”
I’m am so very glad that Jerry now officially represents CRN.Info. This is exactly where the battle is going to be going in the American Christian Church.
I believe it is dangerous to paint people with a broad brush who paint people with a broad brush.
The reason we do not have to know someone personally is because we should not be attacking him personally. Biblical truth should be the topic.
But Rick, if we can’t attack people personally we can’t declare with conviction who is “in” and who is “out.” That would take all the fun out of being a Christian.
Phil
All who make sweeping generlizations are entirely wrong…
You r so funny, LOL!
I was hoping someone would get it!
Phil,
All those who don’t get it are clearly ignorant.
jerry
This kind of goes to both camps (ODM or Anti-ODM) and perhaps I just can’t keep up with all the “high-level intellectual” language quite yet (I’m a junior in bible college), but…
In my experience (as small as it is), if one wanted to correct or disprove someone else’s thoughts, they would simply quote the information and then do a fact/opinion by fact/opinion correction usually without mentioning the person’s abilities at all. This is typically displayed quite well in the original subject posts, but then seems to disappear altogether as comments begin to flow in and usually ends up on the side of the road bleeding with vultures feeding on it.
While I do love reading Iggy’s humor and the occasional Mr. Silva drive-by quip (usually for the sheer absurdity and uncontributible nature of it), I oh-so-delight in Mr. Abane’s comments in particular because he does a line-by-line explanation of his thoughts and actually continues in a fact/opinion ONLY break down.
The next time someone says something “off”, simply break down what they said and show us (readers and students) where they went wrong. No need to present what you think they were “thinking” or “trying to do”, no need to “point out their own hypocrisy” when they’re simply trying to correct someone else (I’m looking at certain people on this one).
I dearly love this website and it’s conversations/arguments/free-form verbal ultimate fighting. What I don’t love is when several commentators begin to get emotional and end up agitating everyone else and the entire conversation goes down the tubes.
Perhaps I’m just whining about not being able to keep up with the class, but from what I usually see, the class can’t keep itself in the room. Certain people do a great job of staying on topic, but others simply argue for the sake of griping. I have my thoughts on who does what, but those are mine and you shan’t have them! *whips cape around and runs away*
Thanks for letting me rant a little. I love you all.
-Aaron
Aaron-
Good advice. You seem to know more than you let on
peace, bro.
Alt.:
“Rob Bell stands with Brian McLaren and Doug Paggitt. That tells all we need to know about where he stands.”
My only point being that the guilt by association thing can cut both ways.
Excuse me, Sam Guzma”N”. These typos are a cinch.
A good observation, SJ. (#61)
Aaron – Sometimes watching a thread go “down the drain” is entertaining. I am such a verbal masochist!
Well said Aaron.
I was so pleasantly surprised to find this link on Christian Research Network this morning. If this gets implemented we won’t have much to complain about anymore.
“If this gets implemented we won’t have much to complain about anymore.”
Translation: If the way I interpret what I think Bosch meant as a rebuke ODMs we won’t have much to complain about anymore.
Don’t hold your breath.
Why does the American church have to be completely monolithic? The only people that seem to think it does are those who are in a tiny minority who seem to think their brand of Christianity is the only way.
Even Paul didn’t place such restrictions on things.
Since the so called battle is being “fought” with words and not with demonstration of the power of Christ’s life, the “battle” is mostly entertaining, unproductive, and many time destructive. And regardless of Washer’s inflated view of signs of revival, statistics and lives reveal something different.
There are young people who love Christ, but they are in the minority even within the church. The so called battle is mostly like the biosphere, a self created environment that keeps us alive and detached from reality. invironment
I actually am excited about the hunger and passion and authenticity of the Jesus-followers of my generation and the one following me.
(I’m 31).
How do you interpret it Ken?
I understand that he said that we can differ from each other and criticise what we see as wrong but it should be done in love and respect without name calling. Speaking in love is more important than speaking truth (1 Cor 13).
BTW I read the whole series of articles and I think it is brilliant and much needed. Thank you for that link Ken.
I don’t know Sam so I have no axe to grind. The You Tube clip was 2:47, what was the context?
I applaud Sam’s zeal, but seriously I felt many of the same things when I was young in the Lord as well (which was long before Sam was born the first time) – and darned if the church hasn’t survived.
I particularly like his lament about this age of “easy-believism” — seems a guy named Bonhoeffer lamented it long ago as well – and darned if the church hasn’t survived.
Maybe he has a point to make, but whenever a polemic starts with the condemnation of a whole generation – I’m skeptical from the start.
Neil
Neil,
excellent points. Darnit.
It reminds me of those quotes that surface every once in a while about how bad the young generations is – then ya find it’s credited to some guy in Greece abour 2oo BC.
Neil
Rick,
Just to clarify. I was pointing out that fells here can apply a logic stream that they accuse “ODMs” of all the time.
Fells should fellas. sorry
It was clear and it was a decent point.
Thanks Rick. Sometimes I am not as genius and clear in print as I am in my mind.
Whatever that means.
I believe your wife has publicly rejected the word “genius” in any conversation relating to her husband!
BTW Jerry – I forgot to mention that I enjoyed the “Washer worship” phrase. As with other creative literary devices I will steal and use it as if I thought it up myself.
All to His glory, of course…
I categorically resemble that remark Rick.
Re: “Washer worship”. No doubt there are a some who admire him to a level that is inappropriate. But let me just say that this has no bearing on the Godliness of the man himself. I’ve met him and eaten with him, my father has traveled and preached with him. He is a man of God and passionate about reaching the lost. He is also just another brother in Christ. I’ve said it before, I don’t thank God for Paul Washer, I do thank God for using him as He has.
Not saying some misbehave, just clarifying what I think about the issue and the man.
Good. Remember, many people say that about Rick Warren also.
…and Rob Bell, and Brian McLaren, and Dan Kimball, and Doug Pagitt, and even Ken and Ingrid.
Pastor Silva,
You wrote:
As soon as you learn what grace means in practice and not just in theory, as soon as you learn what ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice’ means, you and I will be in deep agreement with one another. Until then, it is not I who has drawn up these lines.
I will gladly and humbly stand with these men here who have decided that God’s grace is bigger and more generous than yours. I challenge you to read any of the sermons I have posted at my blog or look them up at SC and then make your strange comments. Please, Pastor Silva, do not misinterpret my presence at this blog as a sign of the apocalypse. I am here to heap the grace even higher for the lost and loveless, to love you in spite of yourself, and to challenge you to actually practice the grace you claim to be an authority of. But if there is a battle to be fought, I will stand with these men on the firm foundation of God’s grace and challenge your every syllable of un-grace–with much love, of course!
Nathanael,
You wrote:
I’m 38. I agree with you. The church I serve currently struggles not because we lack people my age, or because people our age are uncommited, but because we are missing the generation before us. That is not true for every congregation, but it is for mine.
SJ & Rick,
Right. My point is not about Washer per se. However, I noticed when Mrs Schleuter was ‘up in the hills’ there were at least 4 different posts concerning Washer at her blog by guest bloggers.
jerry
PS to Pastor Silva or anyone else for that matter:
Could you please explain what that comment actually means?
jerry
Neil,
I think Bonhoeffer actually called it ‘cheap grace.’
jerry
I like some of Washer’s messages. But he sometimes makes it about him.
“I’ll tell you things others will not”
“I will not be asked back”
“I lose sleep at night”
Those types of statements would be criticized if spoken by Bell or Warren.
Ken,
I’d really like to know how you can look at the article from herescope and not see how it blatently talks about the actions you have taken place in? Even if the author wasn’t refering to the ODMs specifically. What are you planning to do with the information in the article? Your site linked to it, so it must mean something to you, right? Do you nod your head in agreement and say “You tell em preacher!” and then go your merry way, or does it cut you to the heart enough to change something?
I know it got to me.
Just curious.
Joe
Thanks for all your heartfelt concern for me Joe. “I know it got to me.” Me too.
Ken,
I read it as an exhortation for everyone. that includes you and me… not specifically, but that we take to heart the words and think about it… but it seems obvious you cannot do this.
I suggest you get counseling. THis does not mean I am saying you are crazy, but need help in sorting out some things. The bible even suggests counseling.
My prayers as always are with you,
iggy
Jesus died for nothing; we are all damned… cuz Jerry writes for CRN.info.
LOL!
iggy
Carlos,
I’m afraid the one who needs help is you.
Ken,
If I wasn’t concerned, I wouldn’t even bother bringing it up; think about it brother. I’m just perplexed that you don’t think what was written at herescope applies to you in some ways too? Do you see you’ve done some of those things mentioned there, and often? And don’t you think what was mentioned there are wrong things to do? Why did you let it get linked to at CRN if it didn’t mean something to you?
I’m just looking for some hope that things can change.
Joe
Joe,
It is because he projects his sickness on others like he just did with me…
Get help Ken…. I say that with love.
iggy
I don’t care if he thinks I need help or if I’m crazy, I probably do need help, and am probably crazy as anyone else. Afterall, I follow a God who died and came back to life, that’s pretty crazy to most peoples’ ears. That doesn’t mean very much to me, if I’m nuts or need help, because if I need help, and I know it, doesn’t matter then because I’m working on it with God. What I’m concerned about is that he can let that article get posted on CRN and possibly not care/be effected by it, when he must know deep down he does the very things mentioned in that article.
And Iggy, if he needs help, we all do too, and we shouldn’t forget that. You know making harsh admonitions like “you need help” to him doesn’t work on him, it never has and it probably never will. It’s not even a helpful comment actually…you know? I know we’ve tried to be constructive in the past, and that’s failed, but that doesn’t mean we just shut him out by telling him to get help.
One good thing though, is a commitment to pray for each other.
Joe
Joe,
I do not deny I need help… Not necessarily how Ken is stating it, but even that might be true… yet I have tried many ways with Ken and he will not listen at all.
So… I will just be direct and state the truth as many of us see it about Ken… he needs help and to stop and reflect that he is as sick as all of us. He is not some super apostle… he is a mere man who needs a savior because he sins and is sick and needs the healer.
I forgive Ken every time he speaks to me… he is never kind to me nor offers anything to me but condemnation.
He uses Jesus to abuse and condemn others, when Jesus did not come to condemn but to save us…. we were already condemned.
Ken is an abuser and is misusing the trust that Jesus gave him in sharing the Gospel. He disregards the kindness of God and exchanges the truth of the Gospel of Grace for the Law and its judgment and condemnation.
Ken needs serious help and even denies that he needs Jesus as he did in this thread when I stated he needed help.
iggy
Carlos,
Dude, it begins to look like this “Ken” is becoming a obssession of yours.
Iggy,
There’s this quote from Margaret Thatcher that I’ve always found amusing…. “Being powerful is like being a lady, if you have to tell someone you are, you probably aren’t.”
I would add to that having an attitude of forgiveness. I notice that you frequently add to your comments the fact that you forgive Ken but he never forgives you. And that he does (whatever) and you don’t, and etc., etc. My suggestion would be that you keep no “record of wrongs,” and not focus on whatever personal issues exist between you and Ken.
Because, really, it never means much to mention that you’ve forgiven someone but they haven’t forgiven you. I think Margaret Thatcher would agree… those comments are more or less self-defeating.
I suppose I’m suggesting this as a way to broaden Joe C’s comment. It’s more than just saying that Ken needs help. It’s also obvious that he, well, bugs you. And he shouldn’t.
Maybe you should let the past be past, once and for all, and focus on what Ken says, one comment at a time, and not on his overall attitude, sickness, sin, etc.
Just my two cents.
The person that absolutely bugs me the most is without question…
me.
If it were not for him I could live a far better Christian life.
Amen, Rick!
You are a detriment to us all, running with the foxes and hunting with the hounds and all…
(couldn’t resist!)
I’ve always said, and continue to maintain, that I am my own biggest hindrance to my Christian walk.
M.G.
Good advise… and I try daily.
I have all but given up on Ken… he is what he is and God will deal with him.
My point is not that “I am good and Ken is bad.” Never is.
My point is that forgiveness and kindness in a rarity in the ODM world. Even when proven wrong, they will still insist they are right. Being right in one’s own eyes is a major downfall for anyone.
Myself, I see as mostly a stupid foolish man who needs Jesus and must daily seek Him to make it through…
Jesus wrecked my life… My prayer is that Jesus wrecks every one’s life… = ) Even Ken’s…
iggy
Chris P,
I hope you are reading this thread because I want to answer your comment #223 on Submissions and we should not start the discussion over there.
I wrote in my submission:
You commented:
I want to confess that I read that article, including the rest of that series, with other people(ODMs) in mind. You picked it up in my comment and at first my reaction were to defend what I said but I think God is now working in my heart. Thank you for pointing that out and giving me this oportunity to repent. I think I must read these articles again while looking at my own heart.
P.S. I have been trying to post this comment a few times, so if more than one appears please delete the copies.
I believe the title “Contentiously Contending” is something I have said for two years. And Chris P’s comment is an example of that exact issue.
It is difficult to contend with a brother over issues we consider important and remain respectful and even “brotherly”. It is difficult, but should not be impossible.
Rick,
You do realize my comment #99 was supposed to be funny, right?
I should have put a winking smiley at the end.
I took it personally and I have dispatched my weight lifting son to avenge his father!!
I recognized your humor as one who is sometimes misunderstood myself!
All we are sayin’ is give peace a chance!
Good…it got real quiet after I said it and I was worried.
“I gawt betta”
(said in horrible faux-British accent following “She turned me into a newt!”)