Flogging a Dead Horse (or Dolphin or Bishop or Monkey) **UPDATED**
Friends,
“Be merciful to those who doubt; snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh” (Jude 1:22-23).
“My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.” (James 5:19-20)
I feel the need to break my own self-imposed rule of minimal blogging here at CRN.info designed to give someone else the chance to get a word in edgewise. But everyone seems to be busy today and I just happen to have the majority of my work for the week finished and I don’t think I can let this post by A Little Leaven to go by without a comment or two. With all the noise surrounding the RA/KS scandal it seems perhaps it might do us some good to consider a question of with serious theological and practical implications. For the protection of CRN.info and the writers here, I will say up front that this is a serious inquiry into a post made at A Little Leaven by blogger Chris Rosebrough and in no way an accusation or slanderous statement about his faith, character or person. Here I am interacting solely with the contents of his blog post.
I want to begin by pointing out that I like Chris Rosebrough and that this post is in no way a personal attack (that seems to be a popular word these days) on his person. Here I am interacting only with the contents of the blog post linked above where he is critical of xxx.church and their new ‘Don’t Spank‘ campaign. Furthermore, while most of this blog post is of a serious nature, I have used a mild form of sarcasm in order to illustrate my point and highlight the absurdity of Chris’ commentary on said campaign by xxxchurch.
Chris asks a very important question at his blog, one that should be addressed, concerning this new campaign (it may be old, I don’t know; Chris just posted it yesterday, 25th). He writes: “What exactly does XXXChurch hope to accomplish through this particular campaign (other than offending just about everyone)?” Well, I think I’d like to take a stab at answering this question: Chris, what they hope to accomplish is that people will stop flogging their dolphin, beating their bishop, choking their chicken, spanking their monkey, and/or otherwise sexually abusing themselves while they look at porn, fantasize about porn, or surf the web searching for porn or think of creative ways to sneak porn into their minds. This really doesn’t seem to be a terribly difficult conclusion to come to given the nature of the ministry of xxx.church. Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t think a great deal of perception is required to understand this. I’m not sure why anyone would be offended by this at all. All they are hoping to accomplish, it seems to me, is to encourage some self-control (a fruit of the Spirit kata Paul) among Christians in particular and perhaps the population at large in general.
Second, Chris puts forth a hypothetical scenario and asks another very important question. He writes: “Let’s pretend that through the magic of this marketing piece that everyone who sees this decides to stop ‘flogging their dolphins’. Does that mean that they’ve become Christians and are now saved?” Well, again, this doesn’t seem to require a great deal of thought. Chris, the answer is no. What it means is that, through the magic of this marketing piece or self-control or the Holy Spirit or accountability to friends, those who listen will have stopped masturbating. I really think that is the whole point here. There doesn’t seem to be anything about this campaign to suggest, to me anyhow, that it is necessarily evangelistic in nature. I don’t see anything on the two-sided stickers that says ‘Jesus’ or ‘Romans Road’ or ‘Visit Paul Washer Online At…’ On the contrary, I have always been under the impression that xxx.church was a ministry designed to hold Christian brothers and sisters accountable to one another on the internet where there has been a proliferation of porn since its inception or to help those who are addicted to porn escape its clutches. I don’t see how anyone could possibly be offended by such a thing, but then again, I am not Chris R now am I? If you read this, Chris, please help me understand why this should be considered offensive.
No Chris you silly man. People don’t ‘automatically’ become Christians because they give up auto-erotic behaviors. They become Christians when loving Christians teach them about Jesus, the Gospel, and about how God will hold them accountable for their lives–you know, when we ‘talk about all the things that really matter most, like life and love and happiness and too the Holy Ghost’ (Bob Herdman)–and when God gets a hold of them and raises them up to new life in Christ (See Ephesians 2:1-10) at their baptism. This is all in the Bible and you can readily access it by turning to just about any page. Now all of this leads me to two very important questions for Chris.
First, I guess, following your logic, that Christians should do nothing to discourage any sin at all. This means, if I am understanding this properly, then Christians ought to give up any and all action against abortion, we ought to give up any and all action against homosexual nuptials, we ought to give up any and all action against serial killing, we ought to give any and all action against rape. We should never work to alleviate poverty and injustice. And so the list could go on and on and on ad infinitum. I mean, following this logic, if we work to prevent an abortion but no one becomes a Christian because of those efforts, then it was rather pointless to work against the abortion in the first place. I suppose we may as well not do anything to eradicate sin and injustice and unrighteousness in the world. We may as well just sit back and be happy that we are saved and hope that somehow God magically does something to save the rest.
Second, and here’s where it gets just a bit risky…but in opposing this new campaign by xxx.church…this new campaign designed to make people think before they, uh, flog or get them to stop flogging altogether…in opposing this campaign or at least mocking it, are you in some way advocating the behavior they wish to stop? Let’s suppose through the magic of this marketing that people do stop ‘flogging’ does this automatically mean they are Christians? No. You are right! But, it might mean there are a few less people looking at and buying porn and the ramifications of that are astronomical.
Now, to be sure, I know you are not advocating the continuation of such practice. What Christian would advocate self-abuse and lusting eyes? I know you don’t and you wouldn’t. So what are you opposed to it for? What exactly will you gain by opposing what the Lord has placed on the hearts of others? What will the pain be for the church if this campaign is a success? Why are you embarrassed that a para-church organization has taken it upon themselves to help people break these bad habits, some would say destructive sinful habits, and lead them to do something more constructive with their hands and eyes?
The problem is that for drive-by readers of your blog your post might be perceived in just such a way. There may be people who think you are advocating flogging behavior since you are opposed to a campaign to stop flogging behavior unless the only readers you have in the first place are those who implicitly agree with you already. Perhaps for just a moment you could step back and see the bigger picture of the cost and sacrifice involved in rescuing people from the sin that has so gripped their lives. In other words, let’s see if there is a way we can discuss the issue and bring or offer some grace and mercy to those who suffer the shame of such activity instead of so quickly dismissing it is as ‘offensive’.
If you have ever been saved because Chris Rosebrough posted a warning about xxx.church at his blog, please email us.
sincerely,
jerry
**UPDATE**
Turns out xxxchurch is wasting their time after all and that bro. Rosebrough was right to call them out. Link.
38 Comments(+Add)
Self-abuse?!?!?!
Something that has been proven to have healthful consequences for the human body, and it’s called “self-abuse”?!?!?!
BTT,
It’s Old English.
jerry
PS–Don’t get too worked up about the terminology here which is somewhat tongue-in-cheek.
I hate it when they bash on xxxchurch.com. And, 9 times out of 10 when someone harps on an issue all the time, they are dealing with it themselves. But I digress. With most of these guys, you cant win. They write articles about how the church is falling into apostasy, but bash the very people who are trying to fight sin.
If I was a non-believer and found this, I would be very intrigued. I would more than likely visit the site, and probably click through the links there. It is pretty impressive all the confessions there that men have posted. I might think to myself “hmm… there might be s0mething to this whole God thing if guys are able to give up porn.”
… but they are just another ministry gone apostate, right?
Ok… I don’t want to take up the argument about whether or not Christians should take pot shots at each other on their blogs… there wouldn’t be much of a Christian Blog-o-sphere if they stopped… how sad is that?
I do want to ask a serious question, though.:
Is it the intention of this or any other blogger to suggest that masturbation is inherently ’sin’?
Thanks for your kind and thoughtful responses.
Cheers,
Matty (sometime frequent dolphin flogger)
Matty,
yes and no.
cheers,
jerry (still recovering from too much information from Matty)
How are euphemisms for masterbation going to help anybody?
They have come a long way from saying every time you masterbate, God kills a kitten.
Haha, that’s hilarious.
I hate cats.
Killed a lot of cats, have you BTT?
Well there you go. Another serious thread gone to pot already. Thanks PB and BTT! Can’t anyone just stick to the questions asked without making it personal?
Seriously.
Jerry
Jerry, the particular topic at hand is not one that is easily handled maturely, especially on the internet. Seeing as how it is an issue of an extremely personal nature, it is hard to discuss without making it personal.
Issues like this one do need to be discussed more often, but the internet is probably not the best place to do it, and it’s been proven before that conversations about xxxchurch in general turn into bitter and completely irrational arguing.
Do some research on previous xxxchurch posts on A Little Leaven. You’ll probably come across one post where I attempted a rational argument and got torn to pieces. The whole thing is just nuts and I’m not really sure what to make of the xxxchurch or arguments against it.
Hehehehe
I think it’s funny.
I think Matty’s question (which was also mine, in the first comment) is relevant.
Because it’s a normal, natural, healthy thing.
Now, just like anything else, people can go overboard with it…
Evan,
Raping people in your mind that you may or may not know, and aren’t married to, while masturbating, isn’t healthy. It’s nuts. And that’s overboard. However, I think it’s ‘normal’ for people to do this and think it’s AOK.
It’s not. It’s not okay to have sex with someone in your mind, it’s certainly not consentual, because you don’t have their permission to think of them like that, it’s basically mind-rape.
What is the thrust behind Jesus’ teaching here?
That’s my 2 cents.
Joe
Matty,
The understanding I’ve been told and have come to understand is that masturbation is not a sin, but a wide-open entryway to sin. When people masturbate, they typically think of sinful thoughts regarding the hot chick from the Arby’s or the supermodel on late-night tv pitching the weight-loss pills. It is the thoughts involved that render it sinful, but if a husband is fantasizing of his wife in a healthy fashion (i.e something she would agree to if it occurred in reality) while his wife is unavailable to please her husband (such as vacation, period, etc), then it would be ok since the husband is only desiring his wife in his heart and is relieving himself of sexual stress. However, if the husband has gotten to the point of preferring masturbation even while his wife is available and willing, then a sin is involved in regards to disrespect and neglect of the wife.
There are also other alternative situations that might arise, such as if the wife is withholding sex inappropriately or if the male is a bachelor and is sexually frustrated from singlehood.
As you can see, it’s a messy (no pun intended), complicated situation. (wow, jokes are hard to avoid in this topic. Let’s just enjoy the discussion and have fun with it.)
-Aaron
Aaron, It’s a kind of touch and go subject, we just need to be careful how we frame the conversation that’s all. No worries
Being married as I am, I share your sentiments, Aaron, concerning when the wife and husband are apart. I think it’s a pretty gray issue anyways, it’s not addressed in the Bible, and Church traditions really don’t touch on it until later on in history, so…do we trust the Spirit to lead us or not?
Who said anything about raping people in their minds? Nobody said anything about raping people in their minds!
Seems like he was making another one of his famous “Who are you to judge?” points.
Arby’s?!?!?!
Okay, I concede, masturbation while thinking about somebody at Arby’s is indeed self-abuse.
I cannot stop laughing at this thread…
Wow! and Wow!
All I can say is that some of the “anti” people seem to have spent a lot of time a xxx.church.com…
Funny how the fruit of their labor has freed quite of few porn stars… many have found Jesus and come out of the business… that in itself says something.
When was the last time you lead a porn star to Jesus PB?
Evan,
I have a cat here at home that really needs some killing… he has diabetes and seems to like to crap and pee on my son’s bed… can’t put him down myself as I share in the diabetes… but I am losing my love for cats…
= )
iggy
Or, we could focus on the two main questions that I asked at the end of the post. To be sure, this isn’t really a post about masturbation. It is a post about the content of Chris Rosebrough’s blog post concerning xxxchurch. Here are the questions again, posed openly to the author of A Little Leaven.
1. Should we do nothing to work against any sin, in this case, the particular ’sin’ happens to be masturbation? (I’m not here interested terribly in the so-called gray areas or the arguments whereby such activity can be justifiably practiced. I have premised this post on the assumption that yes, it is a sin, for the sake of my argument. The gray areas here are rather beside the point.)
2. In opposing those who do work against sin are we in any way advocating the sin they oppose and work against or put differently, might a drive by reader of a blog perceive it that way?
That’s all. Although, I suppose rather incidentally I have asked Mr Rosebrough: What harm comes from such a campaign, why would you be offended by it, and what do you care?
jerry
My only argument with xxxchurch is that the sin they are tossing off, the one that they are most hard on is this sin of pornography, and, of course, masterbation. I agree this stuff is not pleasing to God, I agree that it does need to be addressed, but it is not the most important thing.
The most important thing is are you born again?
If you are a Christian, and you struggle with this stuff, it is helpful to have advice and an advocate like xxxchurch.
If you are not a Christian, this ministry like any other is a joke to you.
To answer Jerry’s question, yes it is an important ministry, these things do need to be addressed, the internet filter is great and excellent.
Lately, however, they have gotten quite offensive with 30 foot penises, Ron Jeremy saying porn is okay in consensual relationships, etc.
If this is a ministry of outreach, shouldn’t the focus be on freedom through the grace of God, and how you come into that place rather than focusing on the most crude possible aspects of male existance?
PB,
If someone is an alcoholic or drug addict… the most important thing to them is sobriety… if someone is a sexual addict, then to them the most important thing is to stop “tossing off” to use your interesting phrase.
Do you not agree? Addiction often leads one to God… as they are desperate to stop…
iggy
The penis is used at porn shows to attract those to thier booth… so that they can issue the “don’t toss off” challagne. They have stopped using Wally…
also, you are quoting Ron Jeremy… the ministry does not agree thus the debates between Craig and Ron… Ron is FOR porn… xxxchurch.com is against porn…
So, what was you point other than not giving grace and spreading lies that they are for porn?
iggy
Yes iggy, I agree, but I think they must first be born again before they have a desire to stop, and therefore the message is lost on them.
PB–and it is unlikely that they will be born again unless they see the destructive nature of the habits they practice and unless they see them as sin in the first place. Furthermore, they are not likely to think that they need help–outside help, the help of Jesus–to overcome these destructive tendencies like addiction to porn and all that porn leads to unless they understand how helpless they are on their own.
jerry
I mean, seriously, what is your definition of being saved? Is it salvation from an individual sin? salvation from a lifestyle of abuse (or self-abuse?) Or is it salvation from a condition that permeated our whole life-sin- and it is only found in Christ alone through faith?
I mean its great if no more kittens are killed, but, in the end if they are not saved, this ministry is just another AA where most are just sober entering Hell when they die.
/Users/johnchisham/Desktop/God_Kills_A_Kitten.jpg
SAVE THE KITTENS!!!
PB,
It does not always work that way, John… Sometimes when someone is desperate, they will go for help… and in that help find Jesus.
iggy
Iggy,
Why would someone desire to stop if they are not in Christ? I mean, after all, masturbation is fun, it feels good, there is no consequence to it, it can be done in private, it is disease free, there is no risk of pregnancy, etc. etc. etc.
For someone without Christ to desire to stop, he (or she) I believe they must first have Christ, or else there is no external motivation.
And if they stop killing kittens this gets them no closer to being born again as does feeding a hungry person. Sin must be addressed in the context of its offense towards God and the only cure is faith in Christ.
xxxchurch does not do that.
Again, I believe it is a GREAT ministry for those who are Christian and struggle.
PB,
Listen john, I agree to a point. Unfortunately I know quite a few people who have stopped drinking and are still heading for eternal damnation… Yet, you must not forget that it is God that saves us…
I still think it better to help change some one’s life for the better in any way we can.
I mean… what if we took your view?
I gave a drink of water to a man dying of thirst… he did not come to Jesus… I fed a starving child… who grew up to be a murderer… the point is not the other person but what we do with who Jesus is…
Someone so addicted to porn often cannot see it as wrong… would you tell them it was wrong? Then would you offer help even if they did not come to salvation?
God wants us to show justice and compassion… by way of grace, mercy and love… and that means people who are not desirable at all… like porn stars..
What if Ron Jeremy is on the verge of a decision? Or what if he made one for Christ but is not public… and still holds the old way of thinking? Condemning him will not him move toward Jesus… Jesus did not come to condemn us, but to save us… to use Jesus to condemn others is wrong and a fruitless as they are already condemned without Him.
When you were first saved, did you hold wrong beliefs for a time? I confess the Holy Spirit reveals even today my own wrong thoughts I have held for years… yet, He is never condemning or judgmental about it… He is kind and loving and reveals why His way is best.
iggy
Iggy,
I agree also to a point, ultimately it is God who saves, absolutely. But I argue that a masterbater will not desire any other action outside of Christ.
PB,
Somehow I doubt you stopped when you found Jesus…
Not trying to be mean there… and please do not answer! TMI! LOL!
iggy
Personally, I think that masturbation is part of being human… it is the misuse of it and the path one follows to satisfy that desire which is wrong. To that I think that xxxchurch.com may be a little off… yet again, to a drunk sometimes it is needed to stop drinking entirely…
iggy
Well that quote is going to come back and haunt you. What were you thinking young man?
JH,
If someone takes it out of context and twists it to mean what I did not say… then it might… but really show me a verse in the bible that states it is wrong… The bible talks about out thought life… and what we do with those thoughts…
Look at a woman with lust… adultery…
Yet, what man can look at an attractive woman and not have his mind wonder…. that was the point Jesus made… we all sin… but we can be cleansed by the renewal of our minds through Jesus.
Would you condemn your son if yo caught him in the bathroom? I hope not… there is enough shame and guilt around sex as it is… yet instruction (which I never got) as to how we should think and how to truly look at a woman and love her… that is what a young man needs to know…
BTW I am 43… if you are much older than that then I guess I am a “young man”..
iggy
I agree with what you are saying, just given your history with ODMs I was afraid that statement would just be cannon fodder for them. But we can’t live in fear can we?
P.S. Got you beat by 10, but I thought you were in your 30’s.
PB,
You said yourself: AA. Many quit drinking quite apart from Christ or any desire to serve or honor him.
Jerry
On it.
I disagree that a person must be born-again before they will have any desire to stop viewing pornography.
Neil
I also find it a strawman of the nth degree to ask: “Does that mean that they’ve become Christians and are now saved?”
For the question to be relevant the original tract must imply that the cessation of auto-erotica provides salvation – which of course, is utterly ridiculuos
To oppose something someone has not advocated means; a) you do not understand what they said, b) you do not realize what you are saying, or 3) your argument is weak and needs buttressed so you create an issue that previously did not exist.
Neil