Thought this was an interesting quote from a recent interview of Ken Silva on CrossTalk

“What needs to be understood, Ingrid, is I am a pastor, that’s my function in the body of Christ. Whether I’m good or not, people can make up their own minds. I’m just stating a fact…
I’m using Richard Abanes as an object lesson, teaching here’s the fruit — this man is attacking a pastor!” (6:56 into video clip)

So, if people attack pastors, the fruit of their ministry is bad? Interesting. I wonder what that says about ODMs and Calvinism (since we’re making blanket statements that tie select people’s actions to a ministry ideology). Mr Pot, the kettle is calling.

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This entry was posted on Saturday, August 2nd, 2008 at 12:35 pm and is filed under Ken Silva, Linked Articles, ODM Responses, ODM Writers, PD/SS. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
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96 Comments(+Add)

1   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
August 2nd, 2008 at 12:53 pm

This Open Letter to Steve Camp outlines my initial thoughts/intentions/motivation for writing to Ken Silva’s ISP. It also covers various issues relating to the “Ken Silva vs. Richard Abanes” controversy, including:

1. Bible Study notes on key passages being discussed,
2. the actual contents of my email to Silva’s ISP,
3. observations about the current state of the church,
4. an indictment of today’s so-called Online Discernment Ministries, and
5. documentation of Ken Silva’s violation of federal copyright/privacy laws, and other issues.

The open letter should answer most questions and addressed the widely-read article by Steve Camp titled “Battles in the Blogsphere.”

This is my final word on the issue. Those who have ears to hear, and eyes to see, will both hear and see the truth.

Richard Abanes
Pop Culture Mix

2   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
August 2nd, 2008 at 1:22 pm

We are not called to search people’s archives to see what they said about us years ago because we have become compulsive about a particular person or persons. And then we purposely place ourselves in a environment that we did not need to go to, and we wind up taking an offense at that which we volitionally sought after to see if we might be offended. If we all could here what people say about us sometimes we would go postal if we cared.

The issue of free speech within the church should be universal and never merged with the government, and our own prestige and reputation should be sacrificed after the example of our Lord.

The continuing saga of post and letter and defense is tedious and unchristian. Who cares about this particular event now? No one has learned anything and no one has changed their mind. And the discussion of the freedom within the blog nation should now move forward untethered to the past event.

And we have seen many “final words” on the issue. I must not understand the word final.

3   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
August 2nd, 2008 at 1:40 pm

Richard Abanes: I have UPDATED that Letter, btw, Steve, to more fully bring out Silva’s illegal activities and callous disregard for the laws of the land that are designed to protect us all.

This firestorm his his doing, not mine. What it shows me is the sad and sickened state of the certain sectors of the the Church. Iyt’s all been very disturbing indeed, with “Christians” sending me emails filled with:

- threats
- profanity/obscenity
- condemnations of me to hellfire
- warnings that I need Jesus or else

Think about that. And they all mentioned how they love Ken Silva and read his posts/blog and are blessed and with him, are standing for truth. What does that tell us?
http://stevenjcamp.blogspot.com/2008/07/battles-in-blogosphere-when-conflicts.html?showComment=1217691480000#c3089919163656715370

If my “Assessment” opinion piece is to be considered a personal attack and “libel”? I wonder, what is the above to be considered?

4   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
August 2nd, 2008 at 1:46 pm

Nathan – if one is going to listen to Ken you must forbear that kind of thing, it is nothing new. I listened to the entire interview and except for the truth warrior complex, I found the overall point to be solid. Everyone has a right if not an obligation to speak what they believe.

The verbiage can be addressed, the tone can be confronted, pride can be reproved, etc, etc, but the God given right to speak is God’s concern, not ours. God has seen fit to allow Mormons, JWs, Satanists, Scientologists, and every cult ever devised to speak and teach what they believe.

God even allows sinners to blaspheme Him and His Son and speak all kinds of horrible and disgusting things about Him and His Word. So why are we different who are supposed to emulate our Father? Do we overcome evil with god or litigation? Do we defend our selves or do we walk in humble forgiveness?

We seem to take great offense when someone says something mean and even untrue about us, but we don’t seem to be upset that some of the most vile and disgusting thoughts and things we have said and done have never been brought to light.

Ken and Mrs. Schlueter are completly correct on the issue of allowing for all of us to speak and teach what we believe, and that includes sites like this that have a right to confront them.

Ken is a pastor and he sometimes becomes melodramatic about that, but the issue they were discussing was very valid.

5   Nathan    
August 2nd, 2008 at 1:54 pm

Rick,

I think you are missing my point. I am fine with the free speech stuff. One has to find it odd that Ken Silva basically says that the fruit of the Purpose Driven movement is bad because RA was “attacking a pastor”, when Ken’s whole ministry is based around attacking pastors.

6   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
August 2nd, 2008 at 1:56 pm

Rick,

You have shown your true colors to me. We have no need for any more conversation.

As for my final word, that doesn’t mean I am going to stop blogging, which many people desperately wish I would do. It means official statements/articles on this issue are closed now for me.

Everything that has needed to be addressed by me, has been addressed by me, and the truth is out there for people to see. Those who have ears to hear, and eyes to see, will both hear and see the truth.

The sides have been drawn. God will now judge. Ken and others (like you) have shown, I believe, what truly lurks deep in their hearts. It is not pretty. Again, I say, certain segments of the church are very, very sick. Here are some examples, I have found most interesting from YOUR camp of “Christians”:
_____________
“Hey Abanes, you’re a filthy liar, unwilling to tell anyone the full truth without adding half-truths, practicing deceit, playing word games, and not having the common sense to keep your mouth shut and let the matter die.”
http://www.charismamag.com
KafirCrusader

“I would dare say that even a child could detect the smell coming off the heap Richard has dumped on Ken’s doorstep.”
indywatchman.wordpress.com
John Baker

“It’s not surprising that false Christians employ the same tactics as the gay/lesbian organizations, the muslims, the democrats, and other worldly organizations, to keep their business growing and their rice paper intact.”
http://www.charismamag.com
Hesed

If you don’t like a damn blog, then don’t damn read it.
http://www.charismamag.com
PoetProphetPreacher

Abanes IS VERY CARNAL, by his own admission, and listens to devil-music. He doesn’t speak of Biblical holiness and separation from the world because he is IN the world and OF it. He cannot speak to these things seeing his life AND DOCTRINE are against it. You are in serious doctrinal error Richard. You promote and defend Laodicean carnality, and its purveyors. In Titus we are told a leader in a church must be the lover of GOOD men. You love worldly men and wicked music. I’m sure you attend R-rated filth, and spend God’s money promoting Hollywood in this way.
http://www.charismamag.com
Providential

You also defend Christians watching pagan nonsense like Lord of the Rings, rather than teaching them to be SEPARATE from worldly foolishness. You are part of the Country Club Christianity plaguing America. . . . you need to get Baptized in the Holy Ghost, and be filled with the power of God, and begin speaking in other tongues. When you receive that Pentecostal experience, you’ll understand what all those who long for heaven, its power, and its purity know.”
http://www.charismamag.com
Providential

“Rick Warren Apologist Richard Abanes: Going soft on Mormonism, Is this the direction Rick Warren is Heading? . . . It is apparent to me, that Richard Abanes is about peddling in the Lord’s Name. His reputation is what he really cares about, for his own belly!”
independentconservative.com
_____________

Yeah, I can see here where I am indeed the problem. Riiiight.

RAbanes

7   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
August 2nd, 2008 at 1:57 pm

Rick,

You have shown your true colors to me. We have no need for any more conversation.

As for my final word, that doesn’t mean I am going to stop blogging, which many people desperately wish I would do. It means official statements/articles on this issue are closed now for me.

Everything that has needed to be addressed by me, has been addressed by me, and the truth is out there for people to see. Those who have ears to hear, and eyes to see, will both hear and see the truth.

The sides have been drawn. God will now judge. Ken and others (like you) have shown, I believe, what truly lurks deep in their hearts. It is not pretty. Again, I say, certain segments of the church are very, very sick. Here are some examples, I have found most interesting from YOUR camp of “Christians”:
_____________
“Hey Abanes, you’re a filthy liar, unwilling to tell anyone the full truth without adding half-truths, practicing deceit, playing word games, and not having the common sense to keep your mouth shut and let the matter die.”
charismamag.com
KafirCrusader

“I would dare say that even a child could detect the smell coming off the heap Richard has dumped on Ken’s doorstep.”
indywatchman.wordpress.com
John Baker

“It’s not surprising that false Christians employ the same tactics as the gay/lesbian organizations, the muslims, the democrats, and other worldly organizations, to keep their business growing and their rice paper intact.”
charismamag.com
Hesed

If you don’t like a damn blog, then don’t damn read it.
http://www.charismamag.com
PoetProphetPreacher

Abanes IS VERY CARNAL, by his own admission, and listens to devil-music. He doesn’t speak of Biblical holiness and separation from the world because he is IN the world and OF it. He cannot speak to these things seeing his life AND DOCTRINE are against it. You are in serious doctrinal error Richard. You promote and defend Laodicean carnality, and its purveyors. In Titus we are told a leader in a church must be the lover of GOOD men. You love worldly men and wicked music. I’m sure you attend R-rated filth, and spend God’s money promoting Hollywood in this way.
charismamag.com
Providential

You also defend Christians watching pagan nonsense like Lord of the Rings, rather than teaching them to be SEPARATE from worldly foolishness. You are part of the Country Club Christianity plaguing America. . . . you need to get Baptized in the Holy Ghost, and be filled with the power of God, and begin speaking in other tongues. When you receive that Pentecostal experience, you’ll understand what all those who long for heaven, its power, and its purity know.”
http://www.charismamag.com
Providential

“Rick Warren Apologist Richard Abanes: Going soft on Mormonism, Is this the direction Rick Warren is Heading? . . . It is apparent to me, that Richard Abanes is about peddling in the Lord’s Name. His reputation is what he really cares about, for his own belly!”
independentconservative.com
_____________

Yeah, I can see here where I am indeed the problem. Riiiight.

RAbanes

8   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
August 2nd, 2008 at 2:02 pm

And Rick,

This comment is especially enlightening, and really says it all:

“Anyone who could defend Rick Warren has already proven he is immoral.”

And THAT sums up everything fairly well.

RAbanes

9   Darren Sapp    http://www.vaporministries.blogspot.com/
August 2nd, 2008 at 2:14 pm

This verse, Titus 3:10 – Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, flashed across the screen during the interview. That is a good one for all of us.

Let us all mediate on this verse and use it when engaged in our blogging conversations.

10   Darren Sapp    http://www.vaporministries.blogspot.com/
August 2nd, 2008 at 2:33 pm

“Anyone who could defend Rick Warren has already proven he is immoral.”

Ignore things like this Richard. They are obviously from the enemy.

11   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
August 2nd, 2008 at 2:54 pm

KEN: If my “Assessment” opinion piece is to be considered a personal attack and “libel”? I wonder, what is the above to be considered?

RA: Silva seems to find this libelous, so is he saying, then, that his own subjective calls and personal attacks in his “assessment” article (which go quite a bit farther than this statement by me) are also libelous? If that’s the case, then what is he complaining about?

His statement here would seem to indicate that he is now agreeing that his article, like my above statement, is libelous since his article includes nothing but end-on-end personal, subjective opinions about my character, morality/ethics, and Christian faith/spiritual maturity. Is there no free pass for me?

Oh, and KEN, I guess you STILL have not found a proper “forum” in all your internet travels to take one small challenge I have given you:

“If Ken Silva wishes to place another article up titled “A PASTOR’S ASSESSMENT OF RICHARD ABANES,” which actually critiques my theology, then my all means, I welcome it.”

“I challenge ANYONE to find ANY criticisms, observations, corrections in that Ken Silva article that discusses my theology or doctrinal beliefs. Such material is not there.”

Interesting, and very telling. But at least someone had the courage over at Monday Morning Insights to take the challenge, and here is what they said:

“For the record, I like Ken Silva, Ingrid Schuleter, and many other ODMs that are online. I stand vehemently opposed to the purpose-driven programs and ideology that you support. I know that you and I are perhaps diametrically opposed on many things in evangelicalism. But you know what? You were right for what you did. I took your challenge of finding anything resembling an argument of your doctrinal and theological positions in that article, and could not find anything substantive. And, the more time I took in reading it and looking for evidence, the more I found myself agreeing with you that the article bordered on being slanderous. The points that you listed for why you chose to contact the ISP and requested the article be removed made sense to me” (Monday Morning Insights).”

RAbanes

12   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
August 2nd, 2008 at 3:24 pm

“Here are some examples, I have found most interesting from YOUR camp of “Christians”:”

Great, Richard. You have morphed into what you said you hate, and now you present some unchristian and repulsive e-mails and you say they are from my camp of Christians. I presume you consider that appropriate.

Richard, you are way too emotionally involved and I again ask you to withdraw completely from the issue. You are not my enemy and in fact I have enjoyed reading some of your writings. This entire episode, I believe, has taken an unproductive toll on you.

BTW – my ture colors are not red, white, and blue! :cool:

13   Eugene Roberts    http://eugeneroberts.wordpress.com
August 2nd, 2008 at 3:25 pm

Richard and Ken,
You keep on blaming each other for this saga. I hear last words from both of you and then again another last word refuting the other’s last word and so it goes… Is this how Christian brothers should act? And don’t ask this question to the other, ask it to yourself. The last word in this whole thing should be “I forgive you. God forgave both your sins toward Him which were waaaaaaayyy worse than either of you did to each other. So, stop arguing, blaming, looking for self justification and flaming this fire by open letters, posts, comments on blogs and radio program interviews and try forgiveness for a change. Jesus laid down His life for you, do it now for each other.

Richard and Ken, RECONCILE!

14   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
August 2nd, 2008 at 3:28 pm

Gene – thank you for bring Christ into this. Sometimes in our Christian walk it becomes wrong to be right.

15   Chad    http://www.chadholtz.wordpress.com
August 2nd, 2008 at 4:10 pm

Amen, Eugene.

I am so tired of hearing the whole Ken vs. Richard saga. If just one of you would stop talking about it there would be no fuel for the fire. That really goes for all of us – myself included. I used to comment at Extremetheology and finally came to the conclusion it is just nonsense – idle chatter. Since ceasing my chatter there I have noticed a decrease in commenting there to some extent (they have nothing to say when they have no one to fight with) and I have shaved 3 strokes off my golf game! It’s a win-win!

16   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
August 2nd, 2008 at 4:24 pm

………………………………………….
………………………………………….
………………………………………….
………………………………………….

:-)

RAbanes

17   Chris P.    
August 2nd, 2008 at 4:25 pm

1. Here is a link to a site that actually knows something about copyright law re: email.

http://www.fplc.edu/tfield/copynet.htm

I suggest a careful read.

2. Abanes is the only person I know that has whined about copyrighting emails or even bothers to affix a copyright notice.
Can anyone say ego problem?
Just don’t send the email if you are going to worry about this kind of thing.

3. The fact remains that after all the dust has settled nothing has changed,except for the fact that Ken has a new and even better site.

4. The fact that all this was brought up over an article written 2005, tells me that this was simply an attempt to see if Ken’s site could be brought down. I am sure there will be another try sometime down the road.

5. Abanes’ comments to Rick Freuh show more rotten fruit than anything the odms could be accused of.

18   Joe C    http://www.joe4gzus.blogspot.com
August 2nd, 2008 at 5:54 pm

This is lame. Totally unchristian, all around. Enough is enough, children, I’m shutting the internet down.

-God

**(What if?)**

19   Joe C    http://www.joe4gzus.blogspot.com
August 2nd, 2008 at 5:54 pm

Thanks Jesus! :)

20   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
August 2nd, 2008 at 6:02 pm

Time to grow up now Joe C.

21   merry    
August 2nd, 2008 at 6:56 pm

Joe C., at first I thought that was you threatening to shut the internet down. I was going “you can do that?” Ha ha, wow, I’m tired. :)

But seriously guys, Eugene, Chad and Joe are right . . . this argument is getting really old. If you can’t stop, at least take it to email or somewhere else private. I don’t think going from blog to blog having the same discussion is the best way to deal with things. Be considerate of other commenters. Thank you. ;)

22   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
August 2nd, 2008 at 6:57 pm

Ken Silva,
Please consider this my notice to you that I expect your post where you called me agnostic to be amended immediately. Feel free to leave the post up but I would think something that states that my being agnostic is more your opinion than based in fact. I’d say Monday by 8 am should be plenty of time. My attorney doesn’t get in his office until 8:30.
Otherwise, I might be inclined to believe that you are just saying mean things about me to hurt me. I would welcome a piece where you would defend your statement–with evidence that I am agnostic of course.
Grace and Peace to you, Ken.

23   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
August 2nd, 2008 at 7:05 pm

Chris P,
You should get to a Doctor immediately. You may have a memory problem. You’re good friend, Ken Silva was all up in arms because Tim Reed posted an email exchange between them and Ken said that it was confidential correspondence and all that jazz. I even have an email where Ken added that disclaimer to the end of it.
Of course, we laughed then, and I laugh now.

24   Nathanael    http://www.borrowedbreath.com/
August 3rd, 2008 at 11:08 am

When I remember that the only “right” I have is the right to be in hell, I’m less likely to jump to my own defense when I feel my rights are being trampled.

I know it’s been said before by Eugene and others, but you two brothers really need to forgive each other and be reconciled.
I know you both believe that the other would not receive you. But for your own sake, for the Lord’s honor, and for our sake, it is at least worth a try.
Life is too short to carry grudges.
Needing to be right is a burden we are not meant to carry.
Our suffering-servant Savior should be our example.

I’ve said it before, this (and other blogs) have been a source of great growth and encouragement for me.
But this conversation will continue, and final words will continue to be issued, until we are able to lay down our rights and be reconciled in Christ.

I am praying for you both, Ken and Richard.
May the grace of our God be your portion today.
Rest in His finished work.
You are His adopted sons and you are brothers.

The love of God far surpasses our ability to squander it. Bask in that love. Receive it. And extend it to each other.

Shalom

25   Chad    http://www.chadholtz.wordpress.com
August 3rd, 2008 at 2:05 pm

Amen, Nathanael.

Some wise words this blessed Sabbath day.

grace and peace.

26   Joe C    http://www.joe4gzus.blogspot.com
August 3rd, 2008 at 3:15 pm

Ken,

How dare you?

You do not know me, you’re not my pastor, and you have no association with me outside of html on the internet, so you have no authority to insult me like that. Show some charity.

That’s the second time you’ve said that to me and sinned against me. I’ll leave the rest to you and Christ.

As for my little “shut the internet down”, I was hoping you and everyone else would get the picture that all the conversations being had are only doing damage to Christ’s message, but you missed that. I’m sorry.

Joe

27   merry    
August 3rd, 2008 at 4:33 pm

“A gentle answer turns away wrath . . .”

Take a deep breath. Calm down . . . :) (That goes to both Joes.)

Seriously, this argument needs to end. Right now. It’s only going to keep getting more and more immature . . .

28   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
August 3rd, 2008 at 9:54 pm

Guys,
I promise, I don’t really care that Ken has called me agnostic. Anytime I run into anyone who has a question about his **ahem** research abilities, I point them to that article.

29   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
August 3rd, 2008 at 10:12 pm

Ken likes to stir things up… that is the thing someone with a divisive spirit loves to do. He does not care about unity or love or grace or mercy… and especially about kindness… he simply cares about Ken…

He proves this over and over again… and though people point it out, he justifies his actions instead of facing God in Holy Fear and humility to be changed by Him.

Ken hides behind being a “pastor” as giving him the ability to attack others, but not ever be critiqued himself. He proves he is placed himself above reproach and justifies his actions as if he never sins… and is never wrong.

The strangest thing I see is that outside of Ingrid, who seems to be really taking an internal inventory and has apologized to me privately… I have yet to be or see one “ODM” publicly state they are wrong on anything even when they were. They will fight first, then play the victim and claim persecution. They never stop and pray and ask God if they are right or wrong and how they need to go forward to bring Him the Glory… Ken seeks all the glory in this interview… and Richard is the devil… Ken is the victim… Richard is the devil…

Ken does not understand the ministry of reconciliation… at all.

iggy

30   merry    
August 3rd, 2008 at 10:46 pm

Iggy, I’m telling you, Ingrid is secretly awesome. :)

Whatever Ken’s or anyone else’s motives are, we need to be a light to them and treat them gently and with kindness. Like I said, “a gentle answer turns away wrath . . .” I bet anything that if everyone starts applying this and stops arguing back everytime someone comments just to stir things up, the stirrer-uppers (now I’m making words up!) will eventually get the picture and stop. It may be a long process, but it has to start now. What does arguing back and forth accomplish for the kingdom? So if they come here and argue, don’t respond, or at least respond with nothing but love.

It’s better to have a boring, godly blog, than a controversial one with a bad reputation. Granted, the nature of this blog is such that there will bound to be some controversy once in awhile, BUT there’s no need to damage it’s reputation with harmful bickering.

So ignore Ken’s random comments if they make anyone upset. Most of the time they are few and far between! ;)

31   Joe C    http://www.joe4gzus.blogspot.com
August 3rd, 2008 at 11:59 pm

Merry you’re right. I shouldn’t take such offense to comments like that. Thanks :)

32   Eugene Roberts    http://eugeneroberts.wordpress.com
August 4th, 2008 at 12:41 am

Well said merry. Or should I say Saint merry? :)

33   merry    
August 4th, 2008 at 2:02 am

^No, no, no. Definately nowhere near saint. More like hypocrite, since I have major trouble practicing what I preach.

Well, all Christians are “saints”, but we get our white robes muddy a lot! :)

34   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
August 4th, 2008 at 2:11 am

So ignore Ken’s random comments if they make anyone upset.

Isn’t most anything he says random anyway? Facts are random and seems to not even be about the people he writes about.

I find it funny that “Pastor” Ken Silva, has no issue in attacking Pastor Rob Bell, Pastor Rick Warren, Pastor Paggit, and on and on attacking for the last few years calling them all sorts of horrible things, should say such a ridiculous thing… it once again shows the hypocrisy of the ODM heart… claiming to believe on thing, then doing the opposite.

Really, this statement discredits Ken’s own ministry more than any thing anyone else could say about him.

iggy

35   Eugene Roberts    http://eugeneroberts.wordpress.com
August 4th, 2008 at 2:28 am

Once you have “proven” a pastor is apostate it is ok, no, required that he should be attacked. Or so the reasoning goes.

Merry, I know such a hypocrite. . . Me. Someone named Tony over at Chad’s blog said it really sucks to be a sinner.

36   Ingrid    http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com
August 4th, 2008 at 8:30 am

Iggy,
In that you publicly are talking about my personal email to you this weekend, both on your own blog and this one, and are now using it against Ken, I would like to clarify what I said to you. I have struggled to not hate you because of the mean things you have posted at your Online Discernmentalist Mafia site. You call it parody. My husband and I find it something else altogether. I find it incredibly hurtful to see your personal slurs against me, raising issues of the past that the Lord long ago forgave, allowing comments that further degrade me both as a human and a woman, and so forth. What I said to you is that I apologize to you for whatever I have done to make you hate me so much that you would publish this kind of stuff. I don’t want to hate the people who criticize me, but in your case, and a couple of others, it has been a major struggle. I am used to people disagreeing with me and even calling me things like “hypocrite”, etc., but when you cross the line into personal areas which you and several others have done, it’s entirely different. I also want to say that Richard Abanes, you, and several others have repeatedly referred to the shutting down of a website that was posting personal things about me and those I knew in the past. None of you have any information on this other than what was posted at Verum a few weeks back. John at Verum never contacted me to fact check and not one other person has either. They got their information from the individual harassing me. That’s not much of a source to go by, is it? There is no knowledge of the history on this case, the person involved, the attempts behind the scenes, the other pending threats, etc. For a number of reasons I am unable to go public on this stuff, but it angers me that people will draw conclusions, and even use me as a pretext for their own decisions to contact someone’s ISP and try to strong arm someone into removing an article. These were two distinct cases. Apples and oranges. But you and several others have trumpeted information about which you really have no knowledge at all. I am saddened that you would take a good faith effort on my part to keep my own heart right by contacting you, and publicly broadcast it and attempt to use it against someone else. I have learned my lesson in trying to reach out to solve matters personally with attackers online. You can really get burned.

37   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
August 4th, 2008 at 8:47 am

Even if I have issues with Mrs. Schlueter I want to publicly separate myself from the Online Discernment Mafia blog which was somewhat humorous at the very beginning but now has morphed into being hurtful and unchristian. I ask Iggy to repent and take it down or change its message.

I do not wish to see Mrs. Schlueter be attacked personally, and it is even obvious that she ministers to many people. I have never considered her anything but a Christian sister and we all need to learn the boundaries. I am sure I have crossed them from time to time, but that must not be our goal.

38   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
August 4th, 2008 at 9:00 am

Ingrid,

Name one personal slur… one…

Are you going to send lawyers after me now?

Really, I have stated more positive things about you and you apology to me. Are you afraid that you will be ostracized for you apology?

Really, again, name one…

Your husband has performed on “New age” albums…

You contradict yourself on your site ranting against contemplative prayer then promote it in a post on one of your sites and also use the very word “contemplative” in a promotional.

You call me hateful yet cannot see calling a 14 y/o girl a “painted girl of Sodom” or “whore”.

That is hateful language…

You rant against Richard Abanes over an alleged lawsuit… and have used lawyers to shut down sites yourself… and even have threatened this very site who complied to your request.

Again, I do not hate you never have and never will…

I see you just seem to have some vendetta against me and cannot take that I point out the hypocrisy. I suggest you go and pray about your hate against me…

I forgive you… for you hate against me that you have just stated you struggle with. The person I see you need to deal with is the one in the mirror.

Be at peace,

iggy

39   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
August 4th, 2008 at 9:04 am

Iggy – regardless of the truthfulness of any or all of your accusations concerning Mrs. Schlueter, your site is still way overboard. The sins of others are not redemptive to our own.

40   Ingrid    http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com
August 4th, 2008 at 9:11 am

Iggy,
What New Age albums are you talking about?

41   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
August 4th, 2008 at 9:15 am

The album is called,

“Tom Schlueter and Oprah Play all Your Favorites”.

Just a joke everyone. :roll:

Come on Iggy, even if Tom did play on one he probably did not know it. I am sure of that!

42   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
August 4th, 2008 at 10:15 am

DAVID ARKENSTONE – Spirit Of Olympia -(CD 1992)-MINT

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spirit_of_Olympia

http://www.off-town-music.com/media.html#

43   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
August 4th, 2008 at 10:18 am

I have said repeatedly that the Online Discernment Mafia site is hurtful and vile and lacks Christian charity.

Iggy accuses me of using Jesus to hurt and demean others.

Mr. Pot, the kettle is calling.

I think I would have a hard time if Ingrid was my spouse or my mother or my sister not driving to Billings, MT and showing up at the door of Carlos Shelton and taking care of this man to man. I don’t believe in lawyers, too messy and not enough satisfaction.

44   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
August 4th, 2008 at 10:24 am

Rick,

Yeah I know, the post about Rick Warren, Brian McLaren and Bigfoot… I mean, Bigfoot’s lawyers have been hounding me!

Come on… Ingrid is crying for grace that she rarely extends to others… I have never stated she is not saved like Ken has of me… she calls this site “slanderous”…

She decries others of sinning while doing the same things to others…

Good grief she even admits to “hating” me… and struggles with it…

Who really has perosnal issues here? Not me, I pray for God’s best for her and that she grows in the grace and knowledge of Christ Jesus.

iggy

45   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
August 4th, 2008 at 10:26 am

Who really has perosnal issues here? Not me, I pray for God’s best for her and that she grows in the grace and knowledge of Christ Jesus.

The entire Online Discernment Mafia site and your comments about her here belie that statement, Igs.

Take that log and adjust it so you can see…

46   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
August 4th, 2008 at 10:27 am

PB and Ingrid…

I am writing as one of you… so if it hurts you then think of the ones you hurt and damage with your words… I am making parody… you mean the words you say.

So, please keep you utensils in your own kitchen…

iggy

Bigfoot hates me.

47   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
August 4th, 2008 at 10:29 am

Sorry, I mean… You and your logs… telling people to shove them… get real… you are so sad…

You are not nice PB…

LOL!

iggy

48   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
August 4th, 2008 at 10:33 am

Iggy – parody has its boundaries in the secular world. In the Christian world they are mcuh tighter. I am one who has used strong verbiage about some of Mrs. Schlueter’s posts, but I have never attacked her personally and I have a respect for her as a Christian and a mother who adopted children who needed special help.

I would hope, Iggy, that you allow the Spirit to guide you on your site. Parody sometimes encourages mocking and hatred. We must be sensitive to others even if we do not feel they are sensitive to us. From what I can tell, Mrs. Schlueter reached out to you in sincerity via e-mail. Not many people do that.

49   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
August 4th, 2008 at 10:37 am

By their fruit you shall know them

And we see here by Carlos Shelton rotten fruit, not in keeping with repentance. It is a pride filled heart that cannot see the hurt that is being caused by his divisive writings.

If we were like RA, we would have the site shut down by lawyers. Instead, it is the pinnacle of the evidence that Carlos Shelton is a hypocrite, an actor, who has been warned privately and before the church that his site has done harm against Christian brothers and sisters. He has been warned and reproved, now we are not even to eat with him.

50   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
August 4th, 2008 at 10:39 am

PB,

Mr. Pot, the kettle is calling.

I think I would have a hard time if Ingrid was my spouse or my mother or my sister not driving to Billings, MT and showing up at the door of Carlos Shelton and taking care of this man to man. I don’t believe in lawyers, too messy and not enough satisfaction.

BTW threatening me with violence is not nice…

iggy

51   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
August 4th, 2008 at 10:42 am

PB,

This is why I would never sit down with you as you seem to be a bit out of control and might try to harm me…

You need help…

BTW I am 6′ 2″ about 300 lbs and used to hang out with Hell’s Angels… I know how to take care of myself… but have chosen to follow Jesus instead of violence.

iggy

52   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
August 4th, 2008 at 10:46 am

Iggy,

Man to man does not need to connotate violence…my goodness Iggy. There was no threat.

I am 6′3, and until recently I was 260. (I am 224 now, thanks to diet and excersise) I also know ‘how to handle myself’ but have not except in the performance of my duties as security and as manager of an MMA fighter.

Man to Man means face to face over a cup of coffee (or whatever) where we can see the eyes, the body language, the emotions, not in this electronical form of communication.

53   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
August 4th, 2008 at 10:46 am

PB,

If we were like RA, we would have the site shut down by lawyers. Instead, it is the pinnacle of the evidence that Carlos Shelton is a hypocrite, an actor, who has been warned privately and before the church that his site has done harm against Christian brothers and sisters. He has been warned and reproved, now we are not even to eat with him.

Slanderers will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven…

And, I think you need to talk to Ingrid about using lawyers to shut down sites…

iggy

54   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
August 4th, 2008 at 10:48 am

And Carlos…

You cannot beat me up if you cannot catch me!

LOL ;)

55   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
August 4th, 2008 at 10:48 am

PB,

You are man of violence and anyone here would have taken that as a threat. I forgive you…

iggy

56   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
August 4th, 2008 at 10:49 am

PB,

I would not beat you up… Jesus has changed me.

= )

iggy

57   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
August 4th, 2008 at 10:50 am

Carlos

Slander? Where?

No matter what RA says, even by intimating lawyers were involved, this threat was translated by Ken and his ISP that the lawyers were involved. It was either a lie (threat) or the truth.

There is little difference.

58   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
August 4th, 2008 at 10:50 am

PB,

I am going to ignore you from now on.. your slander and threats show your fruit… and I pray for you…

iggy

59   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
August 4th, 2008 at 10:51 am

Carlos Shelton is a hypocrite, an actor, who has been warned privately and before the church that his site has done harm against Christian brothers and sisters. He has been warned and reproved, now we are not even to eat with him.

now that is slander and I am ignoring you…

iggy

60   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
August 4th, 2008 at 10:53 am

No matter how much Ingrid and PB hate me, Bigfoot hates me more… : (

Yet hate seems to be their fruit… as evidence in this thread.

iggy

61   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
August 4th, 2008 at 10:53 am

You are man of violence and anyone here would have taken that as a threat. I forgive you…

Carlos,

That is slander!
You can ask everyone who knows me if I am a man of violence. This can include friends, enemies, my family, my in laws of 20 years, even my MMA training opponents if I am a violent man.

I forgive you, you are just lying, and that is your nature, as evidenced by the Online Discernment Mafia site. And stop hijacking this thread. It was titled ‘ye shall know them by their fruits’..Oh I guess you are not. You are demonstrating the fruits of the ADM’s and their hateful sites against Christian people.

62   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
August 4th, 2008 at 10:57 am

Anyone want some popcorn? ;-)

63   corey    http://learning-to-listen.blogspot.com
August 4th, 2008 at 11:06 am

PB – Sometimes I feel like punching you. Does this mean you won’t hit back!!!

;)

64   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
August 4th, 2008 at 11:07 am

Violence is antithetical to the Spirit of Christ. That is why I will sic Rudy, my 113 lib Geramn Shepherd, on BOTH of you.

Also, by your own descriptions, it does not seem either of you have resisted eating with anyone!! :lol:

65   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
August 4th, 2008 at 11:11 am

Igs and PB – can you take this to email? Please?

66   Ingrid    http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com
August 4th, 2008 at 11:12 am

Iggy,
You remind me of a boy named Jim in 5th grade. We were scuffling for a kickball at recess once and he punched me in the stomach, hard and knocked the wind out of me. I remember thinking, “boys are NOT nice people.” You are 300 pounds, 6′2 or 3 and a former member of hell’s angels. I’m 5′4 and 120. Pick on someone your own size. Yes. Boys are NOT nice people. Glad I married a man instead.

67   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
August 4th, 2008 at 11:18 am

Sesame Street called – they want permission to use this thread. :cool:

68   nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
August 4th, 2008 at 11:25 am

PB and Iggy
this is lame and unchristian. take it elsewhere

69   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
August 4th, 2008 at 11:26 am

former member of hell’s angels.

I never said this… you misquote me.

iggy

70   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
August 4th, 2008 at 11:27 am

Ingrid,

Instead of name calling, why don’t you face yourself… truly, you need to look at your own heart… before you point at me…

Name one libel statement…

iggy

71   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
August 4th, 2008 at 11:29 am

I am finished with PB… he has lied, slandered and now threatened violence against me and then tries to play it off..

Really… he is not a nice person… and I will no longer interact with him.

iggy

72   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
August 4th, 2008 at 11:30 am

Fruits are every bit doctrine as the Trinity. There should be, there could be, there must be a difference in the believer’s life. This difference is not just systematic theology, for the world knows nothing of that. The light that must shine is the light of Jesus expressed in love, mercy, gentleness, grace, and an amazing ability to resist returning evil for evil.

Weakness must be our strength. Grace must be our justice. Love must be our message. Humility must be our résumé. And Christ must be our boasting.

73   nc    
August 4th, 2008 at 11:33 am

oy…

this is stupid…especially the references to personal size now.

Can someone close this thread?

74   Jose    
August 4th, 2008 at 11:36 am

Where’s Euegen when you need him.
Some one go get eugene.

75   nc    
August 4th, 2008 at 11:39 am

Seriously..

I just re-read this garbage…

Iggy…Let it go, bro.
PB…you too.

It’s just immature and self-righteous.
I’m all for a vigorous discussion, but this is plain dumb.

Ingrid…
Your gender and size doesn’t mean that you are above being rebuked for some of the things you do.

All 3 of you need to just stop.

76   merry    
August 4th, 2008 at 11:49 am

*sighs*

*rolls eyes*

I’m going away for the week. I want to see these arguments end by Friday evening! I know you can do it! ;)

Love you all! See ya around.

77   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
August 4th, 2008 at 11:51 am

Chris L, NC, Nathan and others,

My mention of size, was in response to PB’s threatening remarks that he would come and take care of things, “man to man”… I also made it known I would not fight as I am a changed man.

To me that is a Christian response.

I am still waiting on the “libel” from Ingrid who has stated that I “hate” her and I do not… she then resorted to calling me names…

I see my actions as responding Christ like to the slander, lies and threats that were tossed out against me.

Unlike some I also tried to interject humor…

Yet, if this has all bothered some, I apologize…

As I have stated about 3 times in this thread, I will not respond to PB any longer… it is not worth it.

Ingrid needs to face her own hate…

I agree that it has been lame, false accusations, slander and lies are very lame.

To all be blessed,
iggy

Bigfoot still hates me…
Rick Warren is the Pope and anti Christ.
The emerging church all smoke from hookas
Mark Driscoll forgot to cuss and people got saved
Phil Johnson impersonated Benny Hinn and 1000’s got saved.

Yep, it is all lame.

78   Chad    http://www.chadholtz.wordpress.com
August 4th, 2008 at 12:48 pm

What was the title of this OP?

I think I will use this thread as an object lesson for all four of my kids who are under age 5.

good grief (that’s Charlie Brown)

79   Darren Sapp    http://www.vaporministries.blogspot.com/
August 4th, 2008 at 1:38 pm

Two people almost have a collision with cars and the fingers and expletives fly. You put those same two people in a grocery store and they almost run their carts into one another, things like “sorry” and “my bad” are expressed. Why? Degree of separation.

I would theorize that if me, Ken, Iggy, Rick Warren, Rob Bell, Ingrid, Richard Abanes, etc. all went to church together, worshiped together, and had bible study together, about 90% of the harsh things would not be said.

While the theological absurdity of that group going to church together has your head spinning, my point is that if we were all in the same room, we would all be a whole lot nicer. The internet, while it can be a great ministry resource, has given us a veil of protection that is killing our fruit.

“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” – Jn.13:35 ……………except on the internet.

80   Chad    http://www.chadholtz.wordpress.com
August 4th, 2008 at 1:42 pm

Great point, Darren. I agree.

my point is that if we were all in the same room, we would all be a whole lot nicer.

One question though: Will there be beer? I find that I come accross much nicer to people slightly intoxicated.

81   nc    
August 4th, 2008 at 1:55 pm

So… Chad…

are you saying people would have to be high to get along with you?

;)

82   Chad    http://www.chadholtz.wordpress.com
August 4th, 2008 at 1:59 pm

no, nc, YOU said that. Which, by the way, I find to be very, um, unfruitful. You can buy me a drink to make it up to me :P

83   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
August 4th, 2008 at 3:22 pm

A little late to this debacle…

Iggy your site, ODM, is mean. As much as I am for satire to prove a point your site crosses the line of acceptable. I for one would like to see it removed. It does little to engage dialogue and even less to shine a light to the world. I would ask you to search your heart and see if it is edifying to the body.

Probably not the right place to ask this but as a writer here I felt the need to publicly air my feelings so as not to be confused with approving of your site.

On the subject of this thread. Knock it off! It is really childish.

84   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
August 4th, 2008 at 3:47 pm

Hey Chris – if you shall know them by their fruit, does that make you A fruit?? :lol:

85   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
August 4th, 2008 at 4:45 pm

My other site is mean? Weird. I use humor to make a point. I get more thank you’s for it than hate mail…

The two people that send me the “hate” are ODM supporters and Driscoll supporters…

Wierd combo.

I think it comes across mean because of the position I am writing from and that it is so far fetched….

I mean, Ingrid contradicts herself but in no way has a hidden contemplative agenda…

It is interesting though… Chris R used a profane Cosby quote and no one called him on it but us… he changed it.

Really, I agree I. Todyaso is mean… he is an ODM. I also refer to him as sick minded or when sending updates I state, “From the sick mind of I. Todyaso”… So I acknowledge him as mean and ugly…. I mean he is about 6′ 2″ and 300 lbs… which mostly in his fat head… unlike me which is mostly muscle. ; )

If the site comes across mean, then I see it as making the point that ODM’s are in fact… mean.

BTW I say that Shane Claiborne is not saved..why? Because Ken and Ingrid and other ODM say that… that was the cultivation of all my “great research”…

I hold up the mirror to the ODM’s that it all… it is their own reflection they see…

And Bigfoot still hates me… And I am not the only author… I am the general editor.

iggy

86   Jose    
August 4th, 2008 at 5:03 pm

Maybe you should hold the bible as the ” mirror ” that would probably work better.

87   Joe C    http://www.joe4gzus.blogspot.com
August 4th, 2008 at 5:32 pm

Iggy’s making a decent point actually.

The ODMs don’t like it when they’re called on their own jazz, and get very vocal about it, but they dish it out to others like candy. It’s boggling to me.

With that said, Ig, you gotta tone it down man really. You’re coming across just as nutty lately, and that’s coming from me. Maybe you should just get rid of those sites? It’s just causing more division at this point. Take it for what you will. You’ve been around the block much longer than I.

Just lookin out.

Joe

88   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
August 4th, 2008 at 5:42 pm

So anyone see a good movie lately? :-)

RAbanes

89   Tim Wirth    http://nogoofyzone.wordpress.com/
August 4th, 2008 at 6:00 pm

I was just passing by and saw all the fuss here.
This whole Abanes/ Ken Silva thing is one big stinking mess.
And we need to remember this all has stopped honoring the Lord long time ago.
Everyone has said their peace and I will comment on this later on my blog as well but hey this has really spiraled down long time ago.
Ingrids husband Tom got to record a CD with Daryl Strumer how cool is that. Daryl’s a great guitarist I’d play with Daryl in a heart beat.
Love all his work with Genesis.

Why doesnt everyone here log off the internet and go spend some time with your families.
Peace

90   Joe C    http://www.joe4gzus.blogspot.com
August 4th, 2008 at 6:06 pm

Peace

91   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
August 4th, 2008 at 6:15 pm

Peace

92   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
August 4th, 2008 at 7:45 pm

http://itodyaso.wordpress.com/2008/08/04/this-site-is-temporarily-closed-due-to-lawsuit-threat/

Enjoy all the meanness.

iggy

93   Matt P    
August 5th, 2008 at 6:48 am

I enjoyed this site when I first discovered it, because I was outraged over something on an ODM site and this site shared my outrage. The more I come back and see the comments like those in this thread the more I wonder if I’m not just wallowing in the mud for the mucky pleasure of it.

The post a few back about the blind singer has two comments, this beat up over nothing of the minutest importance has ninety plus… I think it’s telling. No one’s reputation is going to be hurt because frankly, ODM’s and everyone else alike had already cemented their opinions of Richard and Rick long before this mess, so what’s the point of even talking abou it?

94   Matt P    
August 5th, 2008 at 6:49 am

I also enjoy your parody ODM site Iggy, but I’m not sure the part of me that enjoys it is the right part. You say you use humour to make a point, but I believe you use a point to make fairly caustic humour. There’s a difference.

I may be wrong, only you and God know that, but that’s my two cents!

95   Matt P    
August 5th, 2008 at 6:51 am

Apologies, meant Richard and Ken in my 93. post.

96   Neil    
August 6th, 2008 at 11:49 am

I enjoyed this site when I first discovered it, because I was outraged over something on an ODM site and this site shared my outrage. The more I come back and see the comments like those in this thread the more I wonder if I’m not just wallowing in the mud for the mucky pleasure of it. – Matt P.

Matt,

To some degree even those of us that post here (as opposed to commenting) grow tired of it. this can be one of the down-sides to not filtering the comments.

On the other hand when it becomes too nasty or the horse long ago dead, we’ll step in…

Thus is the case with this topic. Unless something new develops and another article is posted, consider this a “Please desist” announcement regarding the topic Ken & Richard in specific, and the topic of lawsuits and the shutting down of websites in general.

Neil