Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. – Jesus
I have heard this verse used over and over again by ODMs to show that few will enter into an authentic relationship with Jesus and find true life. This is usually in response to mega-churches that are using a “watered-down gospel” that leads hundreds to confessions of faith. That many people could obviously not enter into a relationship with Jesus… the road is too narrow. This verse is often used when large groups of people are at peace with the gospel (a man-centered, false gospel in their opinion). I mean, few will find this path… how could that many people have found our secret gate to life?
Well, this morning I was thinking about a thread I had started on God dreaming, and this issue came up again. I then had an epiphany (which hardly ever happens, so I was a bit surprised). The calvinist doctrine states that we are totally depraved, and completely unable to see God. He elects those who will come into a relationship with Him. There is no such thing as free will or human choice in the matter.
Well, then I started to think how that applies to this verse that most ODMs are so quick to quote. The gate, road and width of said road is completely irrelevant to the salvation equation. We couldn’t even see the dang road if we wanted to. Heck, the road could be 2 inches wide and the same number of people will get through, because we have nothing to do with it. So, I am not too sure how the gate even fits into the calvinist’s view of salvation.
so that was my thought for the day.
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
71 Comments(+Add)
OK Nathan, you are learning. What you are seeing is the overwhelming irrelevance of most Calvinist’s posts and comments.
Who cares that the gate is narrow? Even if it was 1 million light years wide the same small token number would get through. And in addition, what is their point? To convince those who cannot get through that they can’t? Convince preachers to preach a more Biblical message so
more, I mean the same number will get through?So when I arrive at the dock and see 100 people drowning, and I have a boat capable of rescuing all 100 people, I go and rescue 3 so that all can see how gracious I am. And when I tie my boat to the dock, I look over my shoulder at the 97 still drowning and I shout:
Sorry, Wide is the gate to destruction and narrow is the gate to rescue and few, 3 to be exact, there be that I will rescue.
I don’t like the words “that find it” because it suggests that sinners can seek which we all know cannot be true regardless of what that verse says. I will just take what I like and leave the rest!!
Nathan,
I awarded you the “point” for saying that in the dream thread, so…
No more points for you!
“I am not too sure how the gate even fits into the calvinist’s view of salvation.”
It explains what God already knows. That’s all. Therefore, we shouldn’t be surprised when people reject the Gospel. It’s not that difficult from the “Calvinist” side. You guys make it too hard.
That’s my thought for the evening.
It explains what God already knows. That’s all.
Exactly. So the road is irrelevant, let alone its narrowness. It’s not a path to God, it’s a free will facade
Nathan: If God already knows which path/road you will choose, then that’s how it happens. Do you think you might choose an option God hadn’t seen or didn’t count on?
Keith – it still seems strange to me when someone like Paul Washer makes such an emotional and impassioned plea complete with some melodrama with warnings about believing “now” because tonight might be your last chance, and all the time their theology dictates they will be saved by the unalterable will of God through the Spirit.
So why the theatrics? Just a calm explanation of the gospel should suffice. No stories, no examples, no points, as a matter of fact just read John 3:16 and if a sinner is predestined he will be saved.
Rick: I agree…pretty much as simply as you stated it. (Maybe I don’t fit the typical “Calvinist” mold). If God has already prepared the heart, John 3:16 will do it’s job according to Heb 4:12.
(I have no idea who Paul Washer is, BTW)
You have no idea who Paul Washer is?? Wow, you must be out of the Calvinist loop. You are one of the agreeable Calvinists who considers his salvation more important than his doctrinal slant.
Google Paul Washer, he is the current reformed poster boy.
Keith… What you said doesn’t make sense…
Jesus told people to strive to enter through the narrow gate…and that many don’t find it.
How can you strive for something you don’t know is there and can never know is there and are forced against your will to go in to? And how can someone seek to find something, if they’re completely blind and completely incapable of chosing to find and presumably enter the gate?
You’re saying that the gate example is explaining things from God’s perspective of how He already knows (which He does, Calvinism/Arminianism aside)…but why is it so focused on us then? Nonsensicle. Why explain to people, who will then pass this example on to millions of others over time, something God already knows? So they can know that God knows?
Those are my thoughts man, have at em! I’m sure they won’t hold lol.
Joe
Keith,
It’s not an issue of choosing an option God hadn’t seen or counted on – in Calvinism God’s forsight is causative. One can only “choose” if “chosen.”
Neil
One can only “choose” if “chosen.” Agree. Next topic.
The reason the gate is narrow is becuase it’s only the width of Jesus!
Come one guys… why pick on those poor Calvinists? You guys are sooo mean!
= )
igs
This “narrowness” theme is all over the place, I am finding out. Same as the pet verse of Chris Rosebrough that the only thing we are to know is Christ crucified (as if that is the extent of Paul’s knowledge on any subject).
What is sad is how Christians parade this verse with a sense of glee. As if they are thrilled that many will burn in hell as oppossed to be saved. Obviously, their desires do not match that of our Father in Heaven who desires none to be lost. We would do well to pray to that effect.
In any event, I think the “narrow gate” interpretation by those who would empty heaven and fill hell is off. This is what many scholars have to say about this passage and I concur with them. I have said it elsewhere:
peace,
Chad
How do I know I am ” elected”?
can someone explain this to me?
People actually know who is going to heaven and hell?
?
Jose,
Calvinists will say you know you are elect when your life bears fruit of repentance. But even then, you can’t really be sure because it could be a “false conversion” since in reality we witness some people “fall away” which means they were never truly converted to begin with (though we thought they were the whole time they were sitting next to us in church).
They were never truly converted because God does not lose those whom he elects.
I think that is hogwash.
Because Jesus died for the whole world. You are part of the “elect” in that salvation is no longer displayed in Israel alone but to all the nations, Jew AND Gentile (Gentiles include anyone that is not a Jew). Thus, the entire human race are “elected.” You are God’s whether you realize it or not (in the same way Israel was God’s ‘chosen’ even though they showed in many ways and at many turns that they did not know it, realize it, or live it).
It would be impossible to read some of the ODM sites out there and not think that there are indeed some who think they know who is going to hell. Part of our fallen nature makes us want to divide, conquer and destroy. We love to draw lines and compare ourselves against the “other.” We love to do the very thing Jesus commands us not to do – judge (but of course, we are also crafty enough to devise countless ways to make Jesus’ words meaningless). So yeah, people think they know better than God. I think they will be in for a big surprise.
peace,
Chad
Chad,
If all humanity is elect, then “elect” must be different than salvation, lest we have universalism and anonymous Christians…
Neil
Neil-
Do you take issue with all of Israel being elect, or chosen?
so, using Discernment is somwhoe narow-ness
http://www.urgentprayers.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70rOr3bw9Fc
“I think they will be in for a big surprise…”
I think WE ALL will be in for a big surprise.
Chad,
No, no issue with all Israel being chosen. Yet, chosen in that case had to been different from salvation… I was just exploring the same question with the concept of election… since often people equate being “elect” with having salvation.
Neil
Some questions almost don’t deserve a response… but… it’s not the issue of “Discernment” that’s in question. It’s the methodology and application and attitude. Your question is based on false dichotomy between discernment and narrowness.
Neil
Neil-
How would you define “salvation”?
peace.
“The reason the gate is narrow is becuase it’s only the width of Jesus!”
Very good, Scotty!
Hey Rick
You little story up at the stop is really no good at all. You do not take into account sin, holiness, righteousness ect..I know you dislike calvinsim. but watch this post from James white dealing with a similar arugment used by Dave Hunt.
http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=2799
He explains a lot more in depth than I could but that story of 100 drowning is sub biblical.
Also my 2 pennies the only people that can find a narrow road are those in Christ. How does one come to Christ? Well Jesus says that only those who the Father draws will come to Him. The narrow way fits in just fine. I really don’t think that you guys can not understand the differing views. C vs. A. If you don’t understand them how can you call them false?
The problem is, Kyle, you don’t fully understand Arminianism. So how can you say it is false if you don’t understand?
My comment was not direct at you but at the post in general. Becasue I would think it safe to say there are no calvinsist posting anything on this site, but there are calvinist making comments. Also what would make you think i don’t understand the other side very well.
The reason I made the comment is becasue that is what was said:
“So, I am not too sure how the gate even fits into the calvinist’s view of salvation. ”
Here is another great statement by Jesus on the narrowness of salvation.
Luke 13
22 He went on his way through towns and villages, teaching and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23And someone said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us,’ then he will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!’ 28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out. 29And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and recline at table in the kingdom of God. 30And behold, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last.”
So here we can see it is not entering the door in not dependt on us but on the grace of the Master. This does not negate the fact that we are supposed to strive for the door, but the overriding reason we are able to enter the door and partake of the meal is becuase of grace and grace alone.
So Jesus is teaching that non-elect sinners have the ability to seek God? And sinners can knock of Christ’s door? And when Jesus said that HE CALLED Jerusalem and THEY REFUSED He is revealing the doctrine of free will.
I understand.
Kyle – how can a TOTALLY DEPRAVED sinner strive for salvation? Are they not completely dead and unable to see anything spiritually, much less strive for such?
Kyle,
How can a totally depraved person be turned over to a depraved mind… as Romans one states after it states that we once “knew” God? How can a totally depraved person be more depraved?
That is my issue with total depravity… I acknowledge what the bible states, “all have sinned” and that ” no one is righteous” but I am not convinced we are born totally depraved… I see it as we are born not fully alive.
iggy
Jesus is the narrow road… he is the Way, the Truth and the Life…
It only through Jesus we are saved. He is the Gate, the Gate Keeper… all of those stories are about who Jesus is and His role and mission.
The road is narrow because one must go through Him for salvation. The way the Calvinist uses this passage is more Pelagianism than Calvinist as it implies they must stay on this narrow road themselves and walk it’s narrow paths…. by their own living… that is not what Jesus meant. He was stating that just as a path is narrow to get to the Kingdom, few will take it as it is not one that will allow them to do as they will but to submit to trusting the Narrow Road… Jesus to get them to salvation.
The ODM turns this passage into works… and that flips its meaning and twists it into the opposite of its intention and takes the meaning away from Jesus.
iggy
Scotty,
Aside from my own brilliant post and comments…
…is the best thing I have read here all week! Thanks for writing it!
jerry
OH, PS–concerning that ‘total depravity’ thing…a little advertising here…I did a post about this very subject at my blog…you can get it by clicking here….An Ugly Flower.
my point in the post is that I believe there is a big difference between being ‘totally depraved’ and ‘totally guilty.’
jerry
Jerry,
Which makes more sense.
igs
I would add Gen. 3:22 suggests, if Calvinism is to believed, that God would have to be totally depraved, and man became like him.
But instead, man knows good from evil and is capable of doing both; and even unsaved people can do “good” though it has no eternal value.
Kyle and Keith still haven’t addressed why we’re told to strive and seek the narrow gate (Jesus)?
Can’t seek if you ain’t got eyes.
Why bother telling 90% of the world to seek if they never were able to and never will be able to.
And how can many seek to enter it, but will be unable? They’re seeking, contra total depravity, and can’t get in (because they won’t bow to Christ). Why would they seek something they can’t know about? I dunno. It’s all weird to me.
Joe
“Kyle and Keith still haven’t addressed why we’re told to strive and seek the narrow gate (Jesus)?”
I’m not trying to be ugly here, but what would be the point? For some reason, many people think that Calvinists revel in the thought that people go to hell–I do not. They also think “Calvinsim” teaches that people desperately desire salvation, but God ignores them because they aren’t “chosen.” (FYI-the non-elect DO NOT/cannot desire God or salvation.)
In my experience, you either embrace “reformed theology/Calvinism” or you don’t. It ain’t worth arguing about. Apparently, many people have more free time than I do–or they don’t have day jobs judging from the length of some of the posts.
“[some] people think they know better than God.” And some people think they are more right than others. Seems kinda futile to argue over an obvious impasse.
I used to hold some very Calvinist views. I’m in the process of testing their worth, I guess. Among other views…. I don’t feel bad for not knowing what’s what with all that.
And Keith, to me, there’s a point. The point is for me, and whoever else, to learn something.
I think I’m done for a little while guys…see ya.
Joe
“The point is for me, and whoever else, to learn something.”
Joe, I would agree if I thought for the most part that was true. I’m not accusing you, but for some, it’s like talking with my dad…he only asks questions in order to try and prove me wrong. He’s argumentative, bull-headed, and has been given a level of understanding that is beyond most people (according to him. He says “…sometimes it’s like a curse having this special knowledge.”) I’ve gotten to the point I don’t speak to him much. The conversation doesn’t go anywhere and he just gets made in the end because he can’t talk me out of “being a Calvinist.”
I enjoy (for the most part) coming to this site and reading the comments, but I always feel like I have to guard and phrase everything I post in a certain way, or it’ll get ripped apart by someone looking to show off their theological superiority (i.e. “special knowledge.”)
Gotta get to work. Have a great weekend.
Correction: second paragraph– “made” should be “mad”
Everyone is command to repent, stirve seek, love, and just overall be perfect as God is perfect. This is where the main difference comes in. Just becasue we are command to do something does not mean we have the ablility in and of ourselves to do it. That is apart from Christ we can do nothing.
Chad,
I would use “being declared righteous” or “having been redeemed” as synonyms/definitions of salvation. Being born-again from above, having eternal life in Christ… etc.
As I understand classic Calvinism, being elect then is someone who has (or will) be called by God and saved. To say all humanity is “elect” means we either use a different definition of “elect” or embrace universalism.
I suspect it would be the former.
Neil
Kyle: Everyone is command to repent, stirve seek, love, and just overall be perfect as God is perfect. This is where the main difference comes in. Just becasue we are command to do something does not mean we have the ablility in and of ourselves to do it. That is apart from Christ we can do nothing.
Yes, I agree Kyle, but here is the rub with Calvinism. Calvinism holds that only the Elect are given Christ and yet ALL are still held accountable. To demand perfection in me (which is only available if I stand in the merits of Christ) and not avail me to Christ and then to damn me for that inperfection is unjust. I agree the Maker has the right to do with me what He wills. He can make me a vessel of damnation if that is His choice. But to command me to do something of which I am incapable AND withhold the means He gives others to do so (while still holding me accountable) is a horrid, horrid concept.
Yes but you are forgetting about our sinful state. About how we hate God, were are at eminty, our sins are an attack against His character, we are dead, are born of the flesh and can profit nothing ect… That is why grace is so amazing. No one desreves to be able to come to Christ, or be loved of the Father or have the Spirit within but He choose to show the excellency of His grace through Christ through redeming Himself people from every tribe tounge and nation. Because if it is something I can do to come to God then it is no longer of grace becasue I am deserving of it. Romans 3
Kyle,
agree completely. However there is one thing that I have never understood about what many Calvinist ODMs say about guys like me. Apparently my theology diminishes grace.
In Calvinism there is a limited atonement. God’s grace only covers so many. He has only elected a few to find the gate (Jesus Christ) and enter into a relationship with him.
I believe that God allows every man the opportunity to enter into His grace and experience His unconditional love. His grace even allows us to makes that decision in the midst of our sin and muck and mire. Some come, some don’t. However, his desire is that all should be saved.
Tell me who’s God has more grace. The one who’s grace only extends to some undeserving humans, or the one who’s grace extends to every undeserving human that should receive Him.
“Everyone is command to repent, strive, seek, love, and just overall be perfect as God is perfect. ”
That is like commanding a blind man to see. It is unkind and mocking. That is not the nature of Christ.
Kyle,
And the Good News is, while we were all these things above, Christ died for us all, thus proving his love for us. Therefore, you have been reconciled to God – so, BE reconciled. (Romans 5).
Kyle,
I agree with your point, but you still are missing the point. God would be just in calling only those He desires, IF He did not hold all accountable. But to hold those He does not call who are not able to respond, responsible, is not just and God is just.
I can’t believe I’m going to do this but allow me to argue for Kyle’s side here. John you assert that God is just and that is not just. But if we all deserve Hell anyhow because of our sin nature, then isn’t He being just?
Having at one time in my life been a 4.9 repeating calvinistic baptist, I admit I’m in flux on where I stand on this issue. So don’t assume my questions mean that I subscribe one way or the other.
Joe,
You are full of surprises
There are a variety of ways I would want to talk about this.
First, I would question what we really mean when we say, “we all deserve Hell anyhow because of our sin nature.” My problem with reducing the question to that alone is that, for me, it seems to make the whole point of the atonement a matter of getting us out of an eternal firepit. I think salvation is far more robust than that and “getting out of hell,” while a great bonus, is not the point of it.
Second, if in fact we all deserve hell and God has the power, capability and even the desire that all should not perish than why doesn’t he save everyone? The lifeguard who has a raft that can fit 10 people, has the ability to grab all 10 drowning yet only grabs 3 would not be just nor be praised – he or she would simply be called sadistic at best and called a murderer at worst.
Just my 2 cents
Chad,
I like to keep people guessing.
I agree your word picture works, but if you change it to the judge who is picking 3 instead of 10 condemned people then he is just.
Joe,
Why do you think that makes him just? I could see how it might make him just if the 3 the judge picked were somehow more worthy of being picked than the other 7. Say they were a nice grandma who cooked really great cookies, a youth who like to sing songs at VBS and Mother Teresa. But it doesn’t work like that. Chances are good that the grandma is going to hell even though her cookies were awesom and the murderer is going to heaven. How is that just? Especially if God desires all to be saved, has the ability to save them all, supposedly sent his Son for all the world and reconciled all things to Himself?
peace,
Chad
Yes, but thatis not the point. Is He just to call people to repent and believe who He knows cannot until He GIVES them the power? I would not let my children call to a deaf person if they knew that the person was born deaf and could not hear them
And then when a sinner who cannot hear God and cannot obey God does not hear or obey – He is judged for such inaction. To say the least that is wierd and inbiblical theology.
Part of my issue with this Calvinist view is it reduces salvation to some eternal destiny. I think God didn’t send Jesus to get us into heaven but to help us live fully, to reach our full humanity in Christ which is to reflect fully the image that is within us all. God did this because he loves us and hates to see us killing ourselves by chasing idols and things that suck life from us rather than give us life eternal. I see that God desires every human to reach their full humanity and to live in harmony with their Maker.
Thus, the “judge” looking down upon 10 “condemned” and choosing to save just 3 and everyone applauding His mercy just doesn’t line up with the salvation story I read in scripture. I see him having already saved the 10 by sending Jesus.
peace,
Chad
Joe,
What if the Judge were also all 10 people’s Daddy?
I don’t want to take this off topic but apart from asking someone to post something for me this is the only way I can say this. Since last night I have been convicted of the way I conducted myself on the “Dressing Up” thread. For those reading that thread, and especially Chris Lyons, his wife, and Rick, please accept my apologies for allowing a meaningful disagreement to degenerate into a graceless tit-for-tat. This past week has been a stressful one on a personal note, and while I do not offer that as an excuse for my unexusable behavior I hope you will at least know my behavior was not without underlying issues. I try in all my endeavors, whether they be in cyberspace or face-to-face, to extend the same grace towards others as has been shown to me by our Gracious Savior – that includes ALL people, whether they agree with me or not and whether they are perceived to be enemies or not (that is not to say Chris, Zan or Rick were ever enemies). After all, it was while we were enemies of God’s that he showed us the greatest love of all.
Thank you Joe M for being tactful and loving to say when enough is enough. I love the interaction here with ALL of you and try hard to respect and value the various theological paths each of us have tread as we all seek to love our Lord with all our hearts, souls, bodies and minds. I count you as friends.
Thanks for letting me confess this openly.
Grace and peace,
Chad Holtz
Done and over. Peace.
Um, I didn’t mean to bring this thread to a screeching halt
There were some great questions being asked above and some good conversation, I thought. Sorry I ruined the mood
peace,
Chad
I’ve been off of here most of the weekend (and loved the amazing American finish in the last night’s relay), but peace, as well, Chad.
Blessings,
Chris
I can’t remember the last time I jumped to my feet during an Olympic event and high-fived my wife. That was just awesome.
That finish was awesome. During the Olympics I am an American!
And just like USA’s narrow margin of victory last night is irrelevant because a gold medal is a gold medal, so too the narrowness of the gate is irrelevant because Jesus is it.
How is that for getting back on OP?
(That is what hours of homilectics training will get you!)
And South Africa only managed a 7th
…
Gate closed
Eugene,
7 is a sign of wholeness, albeit, a medal-less whole
Now that is charitable reading!
Kyle and Joe,
That all 10 prisoners are deserving of death is not the issue.
That the righteous judge pardons 3 of the 10 is not the issue.
It is the same offer of the pardon to all 10 men who are already dead in the Calvinist view point and on their way to the 2nd Death that is the issue. In the Calvinist world view these men are already dead and UNABLE to respond to the judge’s offer that they will be freed if they believe in the substitutionary sacrifice of the judge’s son –that is the problem. The judge then picks 3 of the 10 to re-birth and be irresistably drawn to accept his offer and leaves the other 7 (who are UNABLE to respond, remember) to die the 2nd death. This is where the judge is unjust.
Also remember that the death analogy (read “inability” vs “unwillingness”) is a Calvinist construct (even of moderate Calvinists). I have long said this analogy is one of their weakest arguments and one, at least in my discussions with Calvinists, they refuse to extrapolate to its logical conclusion(s).
John – to take the analogy further, the judge comes to a graveyard of 10 and digs up 3 corpses and breaths life into them. When asked why the Judge says “To display my glory”.
He is then asked “Are you able to dig up all the graves?”
The Judge answers “yes”.
“Then why don’t you?”
The Judge replies “I don’t have to tell you anything, 3 graves are enough!”.
* The 3 to 10 ratio is more like .03 to 10.
I think an interesting study would be to find out how many of the ODM writers are Calvinists. My guess is most if not all of them are. We become what we worship. If your God is one who loves only those whom are “chosen” and hates the rest and limits grace to only those in the “club” than it should be no surprise to find the worshippers of such a God as doing the same to their neighbor.
Just a thought.
(I say this while recognizing fully that there are many Calvinists that would find ODM sites as repulsive as I. They have, it would seem, appropriated their theology rightly. Calvinism gone awry, however, results in what I suggest above).
peace.
Or, even better, the Judge replies, “because I am glorified even more when the 3 saved are compared to the 7 damned.”