One common marketing ploy is the “Bait and Switch.” The strategy is simple. Bait the consumer with an attractive deal then switch them to a higher priced, more profitable item. For example, an appliance store may offer a sale on a certain model but only have a couple in their store. When the consumer comes through the door looking for the bait, they are informed it is sold-out, but an alternative (switch) is offered. This tactic is not limited to sleazy retailers.
CRN has posted an article titled Christian Extremism. It is a repost of another blog – a blog with which I am unfamiliar. Anyway, the post(s) baits with a decades old quote from J. Vernon McGee in which he predicts that true believers in America will eventually have to go underground. Furthermore, McGee “predicted” that part of the reason for this would be attacks on true believers from mainstream denominational churches. This expectation is not surprising given the context in which McGee lived and ministered. It’s also no surprise that ODM sites see this “prophecy” being fulfilled in their blog-time. Funny though – the article then goes on to point out the same old list of names (i.e. – Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, Ken Blanchard, Richard Foster, Tony Jones, Dan Kimball, Doug Pagitt, Erwin McManus, Leonard Sweet, Robert Schuller and Brian McLaren) and the same old list of objections.
Bait: a predictive quote from a saintly radio preacher and author from the recent past… a quote which seems to have come to fulfillment.
Switch: change “mainline denominations” to “evangelical ‘leaders’” and change “attack true believers” to “advance methods we don’t like.”
Bait and Switch.
Here is the list of “attacks” (since this was the verb used by McGee, I will use it too, to show the self-evident silliness of this B&S). [Given the over-sensitivity of some ODM’s, I will add that B&S is shorthand for "Bait and Switch."]
They seek to establish Christ’s kingdom on earth.
They speak of a “return to Eden”.
They espouse a man-centered gospel message.
They often speak of “new frontiers”, “changing times”, “new spirituality”.
They often recommend mystical, occultic practices such as lecto divinia, prayer centering, breath prayers, the labyrinth, meditation, and yoga.
RE: Christ’s Kingdom – short of trying to legislate a theodicy – isn’t this the role of the church… to strive to fulfill the very model prayer of Christ?
RE: Return to Eden – since no context was given, how can you address this accusation other than to say – sounds like Revelation 21 and 22. So it’s easily a biblical allusion.
RE: Man-centered Gospel – is there a more oft-used cliché by the ODM’s? From Christ’s POV the Gospel is man-centered… and so is anything they don’t like.
This list of “attacks” is followed by a list of quotes from the new “Mainstream Denominational Churches.” You can follow the link if you like. Some of the quotes are from people I am familiar with, some are unfamiliar. I concur some have gone too far, others are advocating a practice that is perfectly biblical.
What is constant is the fact that this article, as do most of the ODM type, must rip the quotes out of context and pour into them meanings that the author never intended. This latter fact is comical given the ODM mantra that post-moderns are guilty of making things mean whatever they want… shades of a conversation between the pot and the kettle.
So – bottom line: CRN and their source blog once again take stick in hand to beat one of their favorite dead horses. They may have had some valid points to make if their tactics were more honest and their ability to discern more refined. As it is they once again lump a bunch of people together, label them, and then attack. What makes this attempt more egregious is the use of J. Vernon McGee… it’s not often I am offended on behalf of the bait.
300 Comments(+Add)
Neil – perhaps a language warning to those of us who have expressed offense at such? Sorry.
Though it’s probably safe to say there are those who will be more bent out of shape that Neil used profanity in his post than with the content.
Neil, I agree with Rick, and I appreciate that his request is as humble as it can be. How about a disclaimer at the top of the post?
I’m cringing while waiting for this thread to deteriorate into tit-for-tat “dialogue” on the language issue again.
Thanks Rick and Christian for keeping it simple and civil…I hope things end with your request…and move on to the substance of the post.
Here’s to hoping…
I wonder if the ODMs would be so quick to embrace J. Vernon McGee if he were still alive. All quotations come from the McGee’s book Questions and Answers.
Check out what he had to say on the subject of fellowship:
That sounds quite ecumenical to me. Not to mention it rids entrance into the kingdom of God of all those addendums the ODMs love.
Then there’s his view on creation:
Uh oh, no six day creation process here.
Apparently he also rejected the Calvinist notion of the sovereignty of God (much like AW Tozier):
Original sin is out the window:
I can only imagine the hyperbole of the ODMs directed at McGee if he were still ministering.
He also pastored at the Church of the Open Door, a deliberately interdenominational church focused on evangelism (and in fact was founded by a guy who wrote a book called How I Bring Men to Christ).
I can only imagine the squeals of compromise emanating from the general direction of Apprising [sic] Ministries [sic] if McGee were still among the living.
OK – to the issue. I find the use of someone’s quote as evidence that even THEY agree with your point is manipulative and even fraudulent, especially when the person is dead. And as you all know, what does it matter what McGee said, I like him and have listened to many of his programs but that does not mean his opinion has any weight to my own.
I just recently rejoiced when I read Chris L. openly arguing a position that he knows is at odds with Rob Bell. How many on the ODM sites sweep under the carpet words and teachings from say Spurgeon, and yet use some of his words as a show that he supports them. Spurgeon thought that believers who baptize infants were papists! Youwon’t hear that.
In the end, it is the idolatry of man plain and simple. And Tozer, Calvin, Whitefield, MacArthur, Ravenhill, and many other oft quoted wise men disagree on some substantive issues. The only person whose words I must give account for is one Rick Frueh, and sometimes he’s a big bag of hot air!!
Well…
at least you know it Rick…
Reminds me of a way Campolo once opened a sermon: Right this very minute (insert large number here) children have died of starvation and the church doesn’t give a S**t. And right this very minute all of you are concerned more that a preacher just said s**t than you are about the kids that just died.
Thanks, Rick and Christian P for asking politely and not making a big stink of it.
Bo-
Good research. Don’t ya love irony?
peace.
Hey, I like Dr. McGee. He has some interesting takes on the Bible. That I like to listen to his voice.
He’d probably be rolling over in his grave if he heard about the ODMs and some the issues in church today. In fact, if you listen through his radio sermons long enough, I’m sure he’ll have something to say that would apply. He could be kind of prophetic at times.
OK – I removed the offending reference. It kinda guts the post of one of it’s comic relief elements, but it was certainly not essential and could be a tangent.
I did not think it offensive nor profane, my apologies for that… it was not my intention to be offensive.
Neil
Yes, thanks for being civil, though I would not have expected anything less from either of them.
Chad, “…making a stink…” apparently your spiritual gift is speaking in puns!
Neil
Bo,
Great research! You are correct, if the ODM’s used thier rip and pour tactics on Dr. McGee he be right (or down) there with all the others they love to content with.
Neil
Rick, that is the way I’ve felt about almost every “ism” out there. There is a line that separates a philosophy or worldview from becoming an idol when taken too far.
Chad,
That’s who I was trying to think of when I made my comment behind Rick. BTW, Rick, my comment wasn’t directed at you, as you noted your concern with a great deal of gentleness and class (you too, Christian P) .
Thank you Neil – understanding and forbearance between brothers in Christ. Wow – who knew?? Isn’t that the way our Elder Brother wanted it?
BTW – Jesus once said beware of wolves which I interpret to mean He agrees with me!
Thanks for noticing this, Neil. Most people just assume I am full of…. ooops.
Update: Yesterday I posted a prayer request on my blog for my son. Just wanted you all to know he made it through his surgery with flying colors and we are home. Praise God! Thanks for your prayers.
peace.
Oh Chad, you’re so witty.
Ummmm, let’s all pretend my comment #18 came right after comment #16. Because that’s what I was replying to.
lol Christian. I thought so, bro.
Chad – insinuation of an off color word falls under grace. Writing the entire word falls under law and will increase your coming judgment!!
Don’t ya just hate it when a stuffy fundamentalist spoils all the fun?
Hello Chad –
A few observations.
You said:
“CRN and their source blog once again take stick in hand to beat one of their favorite dead horses. ”
It is quite hypocritical for you and others on this site to criticize CRN and others for “beating a dead horse” when this site is almost exclusively a beating of a dead horse. Every post is just about like the last – “Ooo, did you see what Ken (or Ingirid) did today!?! We would never do that because we are the real discernment crowd and we extend grace (except to anyone who advocates for a reformed understanding of the Bible)”
You also said:
“As it is they once again lump a bunch of people together, label them, and then attack. ”
Of course your post is exactly the same thing, as you illustrate earlier by saying “as do most of the ODM type”. That would be a classic lump and label, and of course the whole post criticizes, so that would be the attack.
So, in your own words: “shades of a conversation between the pot and the kettle”.
I understand that you all make yourselves feel better by constantly harping on the same few sites, but your similarity to those sites does not go unnoticed despite your numerous protestations that your different.
OOps, I meant that for the author, who is Neil, not Chad. My apologies.
“but your similarity to those sites does not go unnoticed despite your numerous protestations that your different.”
Yea, but it’s much more fun here!
Forget McGee though I loved that guy…
What about Paul who stated…
Considering all the ODM’s add to the salvation process, I wonder if what Paul stated would be appropriately aimed at the ODM today.
iggy
Eric,
I don’t mind being mistaken for Neil. Thank you for the compliment.
I agree with you. If this site only talks about CRN than it truly would be “beating a dead horse.”
Iggy,
I’m not sure they “add” to the salvation process. I would say they (lumping them all together for easier attacking): 1) judge on externals not internals, 2) confuse methodology with beliefs, 3) judge from culturally determined basis, 4) pour their own meanings into other people’s words, and 5) refuse to read charitably, and 6) lack the discernment they tout to be their strong suite.
Among other things…
Neil
If someone called me Neil I would be forced to contact their ISP!
Neil,
I would just disagree… which is fine…
I see that many add works righteousness…. or use their own righteousness as the standard for others. Most “mouth” Grace, yet the evidence of their actions seem to show they do not know mercy, grace, forgiveness or loving kindness that is of God. I see that they are mostly focused on the externals and disregard the bible if it stands in the way of “being right” or as I see it, the bible stands in the way of their own righteousness being thrust on others.
This is what those that supposedly came from James did to the Galatians. They added circumcision and told that the gentile must be a Jew…. IOW, the ODM adds whatever they think is “right” and then tells those they deemed wrong that they need to be just like them to be saved. If they are not, then the one “attacked” is demonized and said to not be saved.
Also, just as those Paul talked about in Galatians miss-used the authority of James, ODM’s miss-use Spurgeon, Luther, Calvin and others as their authority… sheesh at least those in Paul’s day used an Apostle! LOL!
So the righteous standard these ODM’s hold up is their own and they want others to be like them…
iggy
Iggy,
I see your point. I susposse anytime anyone uses a modifier to question another’s faith; or calls brother in Christ a False Prophet they are indeed judging their faith/salvation.
I hardily agree that they use their own behavior as the standard.
Neil
Eric,
Cool name, by the way. Perhaps I am mistaken but you seem to imply by your comment here that extending grace is not nearly as important as casting judgment. Do you not think that extending grace should be one of our chief “jobs” as a Christian? After all, they will know us by our love.
As for not extending it to the “reformed crowd” I disagree. I have never heard anyone here call a writer at an ODM site a heretic, false prophet, false brother/sister, antichrist, Satan’s minion, hellion, lost, blind guide or a slew of other graceless slurs. However, I need not read more than 3 sentences by your “reformed crowd” to find those labels everywhere. Heretic hunting has become a sport for many of them.
I seriously wonder if any of them would find any joy in being a Christian if the game of dividing and conquering was declared unfit for God’s people (oh wait, it was – Calvary!).
I think I can speak for most of the people who write here when I say that I look forward to the day when we will ALL (the “us’s” and the “them’s”) be rejoicing around the Great Throne together laughing about how truly stupid we really are when it comes to the lofty things of such a mighty God. I would hate to spend eternity with a host of people that I have mocked, judged and damned during my short time on earth while I could have been extending grace and peace to a world that needs to know there is such a thing.
grace and peace,
Chad
Rick, I have been called far worse four-letter names in my time
Neil – in college I had a good friend named Neil. Whenever he introduced himself he would say, everytime, “Hi, I’m Neil. I used to stand but now I Neil.” It was so stupid it was funny. I still laugh about that. In fact, I’m laughing now. Ok, stopping now.
Well on the front page there is currently a post about The Beautiful Letdown, a post about noodling, a post about fantasy football, and a post about God’s nature in order and sin being chaos. What was that about every post being the last? Perhaps you need to review the post about team politics.
And of course, that pretty much makes the rest of your “criticism” moot, since it relies on your initial premise for its conclusions.
“CRN and their source blog once again take stick in hand to beat one of their favorite dead horses. ”
I have many friends that are in the reformed camp… some of them are even… gasp… emerging! Gasp!
Yet, what I find different is that my friends grasp the great and wonderful grace of our God… and use their system to encourage and guide them to be more loving and extend more grace, mercy and love to others.
Meanwhile, the ODM’s use Jesus as a way to abuse, judge and condemn others.
Now, we are called to stand against false teachers… and Paul points out as I have in this thread where the typical ODM goes wrong… I guess that to stand against real false teachers is wrong?
It is not that this site is beating a dead horse… (though Ingrid and Ken’s lawyers may be contacting you for calling them dead horses) they are more like raging bulls in a china shop who care little what damage they do… as they hide behind the Name of Jesus to harm others.
This is unchristian…
Now I do see them as brothers and sisters in Christ… I see them as missing the crucial understandings of the very Gospel they defend… or claim to defend.
iggy
Eric,
huh…
RE:I understand that you all make yourselves feel better by constantly harping on the same few sites, but your similarity to those sites does not go unnoticed despite your numerous protestations that your different.
yes, yes, yes…the standard cry of the sycophant…blah, blah, blah…
whatever, dude.
really.
I seem to matriculate to blogs that ALLOW COMMENTS. So just in that is found a profound difference and the similarity ends.
You cannot have any iron sharpening iron if there is only one axe and it seems to always be planted in someone’s head other than your own.
Personally two blog ingredients drive me absolutely crazy.
1. Criticizing and demaning and exposing the personal failures of saint and sinner alike.
2. Suggesting a professing believer is not saved.
All the rest I treat as different levels of substance.
Rick,
You word spindler, you. I am going to start a “Things I Wish I Had Said But Rick Did It Better” journal. I will, of course, take full credit.
Iggy,
“hardily” should have been “heartily”…
I heartily agree…
Neil
“I understand that you all make yourselves feel better by constantly harping on the same few sites . . .”
And those sites make themselves feel better by constantly harping on the same few people . . .
At ODM sites, everyone apparently must agree with the same narrow theological views, or else it seems they will be ostracized. I’ve seen it happen many times. At this site, everyone is accepted who wants to join in conversation, no matter what their theology is. You could join in, too, Eric. After you get to know the commenters and writers here and their individual personalities and beliefs, it may just change your views on a couple of things!
Since CRN and others don’t allow comments on their sites, it’s somewhat difficult to criticize them there. The dialogue here at least provides an opportunity to sharpen another’s iron, a meaningful exchange of ideas, unpleasantries and what have you. In fact, Ken, Ingrid, Chris P, Chris R and others who are often critical of this site for opposing them comment here.
On the matter of dead horses: If it were something done and over with, settled and decided, no chance for redress and change anything, that’s a dead horse. That there are people who notice this ongoing pattern of Christians posting supposedly well researched and well thought out commentary that may have at its core an element of truth, but find it’s hard to get to for all the harsh, uncharitable, twisted rhetoric surrounding it.
Third, as a rule, this site does not delete posts. Comments may be moderated based on the behavior and intent of the one commenting, but basically the posts stay to show everyone we can make mistakes or have changes of position, in which case, the original post is appended with an update. This is much different than deleting a post that was embarrassingly wrong in tone and content, act like the whole nasty affair never happened, continue to engage in the same behavior without missing a beat, and then get indignant that someone else would bring up such a thing as a record of the misdeed.
While a person may have a reason for deleting a post, such as wanting to stop the spread of the wrong done, or not allowing comments because the negativity can be overwhelming, it also creates a type of “I pontificate, you listen” mindset.
I look at the Gospels and I don’t see any of the disciples telling Matthew, Mark or Luke to leave out the stuff that showed just how dull and in error they could be. No, there’s no record of Peter asking to have the “Get behind me, Satan” or the denials blotted out. It was written because it happened and the writers were reporting what happened.
No, the horses in question are alive and kicking.
“You cannot have any iron sharpening iron if there is only one axe and it seems to always be planted in someone’s head other than your own.”
Hey Rick, mind if I save that one for future reference?
Neil,
Thank you for picking up my piece at CRN/DefCon. I appreciate the coverage and discussion you’ve provided.
In Christ,
CD
The ultimate bait and switch is found in the Purpose Driven model.
Bait: Come to church, where we will present an entertaining service, where you will be blessed and hear all about how to make your life better, and, through using Christian principles, you can make a difference in your world by discovering your God given SHAPE and participating in the global PEACE plan.
Switch: (to satisfy the gospel call) oh, and you may learn about Jesus and how ‘accepting’ him will empower your life.
To many this will sound over simplistic, but in reality, when we get down to brass tacks, this is what the seeker method is all about.
As to the ‘prophesy’ of J. Vernon McGee, I do not see necessarily this driving the remnant underground. However, I do see this as the apostate church which serves a different Jesus in the name of pleasing man.
As to the emergent church, many of them are not really even the church. I say this in the kindest way possible, but many which I have observed and studied substitute man made spirituality, universalism, many roads leading to God, yoga and other demonic practices to satisfy the sensibilities of those who do not believe Jesus when He says that HE is The WAY the TRUTH and The LIFE. I am sorry to say that these practices, combined with the ecumenism that is becoming the seeker/purpose movement is paving the way for the one world religion that we see in the book of Revelation.
one man’s opinion. Have at me.
pastorboy,
Your comment is right on target, but I’d argue (and I actually just did here) that emergent/emerging is actually the ultimate bait & switch.
Don’t get me wrong, the flesh peddling of Warrenism is worthy of the sternest of rebukes, but though he denies it by his heteropraxy Warren at least privately affirms orthodoxy – unlike many in the emergent/emerging camp who embrace outright heresy such as Open Theism.
Your opinion as you’ve articulated it here is solidly backed by both scripture and the historical teachings of the church. Keep on fighting the good fight of faith, brother!
In Christ,
CD
Hmmm. Sounds something like this guy named Jesus going around healing the sick, raising the dead, feeding the hungry and showing compassion to the scum of the earth, causing thousands to flock to him – why? not because he was telling people who wretched they were but because he was bringing healing and peace everywhere he went.
Jesus never bawked at the great crowds the flocked to him, hoping to just sneak even a touch of his robe or sneak in through a thatched roof. He knew the harvest was plentiful and regretted that the laborers are so few. I would argue that Warren’s ministry and others like them resemble the Kingdom of God far more than those ministries that spend their days throwing sticks.
peace,
Chad
Let us all be honest, we all have played bait and switch with God. We promised to surrender fully and follow Jesus Christ only to switch on some level.
All of us.
Agreed, Rick.
Those who are without sin throw the first stone.
WOW – two different ultimates in a row… now that’s post-modern.
Are you saying they both do this? Since we all knwo there is a significant difference between Emerging and Emergent.
Everytime the ODMs post they demonstrate their unfitness for posting on the very subjects they claim they have a divine commission to be writing about. And to a certain extent I can understand not understanding emerging culture and theology, that requires a certain amount of submersion in that culture, not to mention reading from a multiplicity of sources, and understanding several different contexts. Although Coram Deo’s grasp seems especially tenuous especially since he seems to think he has a mastery on the subject.
But the failure to understand Warren’s modus operandi is baffling to me. The whole thing is laid out in a single, easily read book (or two books, I suppose if you include Purpose Driven Church), there is only one source for it, Warren deliberately writes in a simple manner intended to communicate in a traditional author/reader dynamic. At some point I suppose I just have to consider that ODMs are malicious readers who have distorted their own ability to understand any communication from anyone outside their own theological eco system. Which really calls into question not just the value of their criticisms of their contemporaries but also their own ability to properly exegete scripture.
oy…
talk about the dead horse..
emerging is a larger global sphere of people who are intentionally focused on missiology/ ecclesiology in the 21st century
emergent is a network of relationships in the u.s. that include alot of different people…some with orthodox views, some without.
the difference is that emergent–as the network of relationships it is–doesn’t throw their friends under a bus when we disagree to satisfy people not in the relationships self-righteous need to be obsessed with people they disagree with.
sheeeeeeeeeesh.
just in case it’s lost on some of you…
“a network of relationships” means…gasp!!!!….A NETWORK OF RELATIONSHIPS…
That means, if its still lost on some of you, that it’s NOT a denomination, it’s NOT a “church” per se, it’s NOT anything other than a group of people from a wide range of perspectives on ALOT of things who know each other, listen to each other, encourage each other, admonish and correct each other…
if you don’t see that stuff…it just means you’re not in that relational context and we don’t have to satisfy any of you when it comes to your “concerns” if we’re admonishing and correcting THE WAY YOU WOULD WANT US TO–your obsession with admonishing and correcting itself being deeply indicative of your own serious brokenness and spirit of religion.
phew…there…
again…
I say admonish and correct because I’ve witnessed multiple interactions, facilitated them and have been there when even “notables” affiliated with emergent have rebuked each other…
so please don’t bother telling me it’s not true.
Bo
To an extent I agree, yet you comment about the ODM posting is to inclusive – when you say “Every time…”
As we have pointed out here before, there are times that an ODM, even our “favorites” Ken & Ingrid make a valid point… or have a valid point. Often times, though, even when they do the tone and rhetoric are so caustic it over-powers anything relevant they may have to say.
All that to say, I think they do have something relevant to say from time to time.
Neil
I would like this thread to keep to the specific topic. In the post I quoted Coram Deo’s objections.
In a sense it’s nearly impossible to address a charge such as “espouse a man-centered gospel message” since this is so vague, so subjective, so cliche, and lacks an object (that is, he doesn’t say whi it is that does this – he gives a list of offendeers and a list of offenses, but never matches them and he cannot mean the whole list does this, that’s just silly).
Further more – what is wrong with building the Kingdom of Christ? What is wrong with using the Garden of Eden as an allusion? What is wrong with saying the times have changed?
Neil
No idea. From the very beginning this has been our calling. Paul goes so far as to call us “co-laborers” with God. That is amazing! Jesus taught us to pray for God’s will be done on earth as it is in heaven and “thy kingdom come.” Do they think we are suppossed to just sit around and wait?
If by this you mean their objection to speaking of a “return to Eden” I don’t get it either. One caveat, however: Anytime I hear discussion about Eden from those “emergent types” it is never about “returning to” as though things are going to go back to the way they were. Rather, it is a fulfillment of and a NEW creation, one that will surpass even Eden. If “return” language is used it is usually to describe the unhindered, deep, relational aspect that Adam and Eve first had with their Maker.
Nothing, unless you are afraid of change.
I hear this objection a lot. I can understand some of the concerns surrounding this, seeing as how most of this sort of stuff has been co-opted by New Age spiritualists and it also resembles pracitices of Eastern religions. But those objecting seem to think Christianity started in America sometime in the 1950’s. They also can’t seem to understand that Jesus is in the business of redeeming what some might call pagan practices. Even baptism is/was a pagan, occultic practice long before Jesus commanded his disciples to baptize.
In these prayer practices Jesus is the focal point. Historically, Christians have done all sorts of things to be in communion with God at a deeper level. Rather than condemning the lot of them we ought to be investigating what might be missing from our own spiritual lives and how we too might grow in Christ in a variety of ways.
Just some random, opening thoughts.
nc,
I couldn’t agree with you more, it is not a church. It is a network of those people who think they know better than God and His Word and the truth that is found therein. Many believe that there are many ways to God, and their leaders encourage such thinking. It is an apostate network of people who, I am sure, may have one or two Christians within but not for long. A true believer could not stay within a place that teaches doctrines of demons even when they do nice things for hungry people.
Neil,
I have read both books, seen them put into practice from the most basic to the most radical extremes. I was a member of the Pastor’s network sponsored by Warren. I have studied books in my masters program by John Maxwell, Eugene Peterson, Bill Hybels (and his cronies) and other authors. I have not formulated this opinion out of ignorance. I have formed it out of reading the source books, observing from within and without the churches that practice it, and watching Warren and others in the news (The newest TIME article is telling). The ultimate bait and switch is found in many of these churches, who are promised by Warren a fool proof method of getting lots of buts in the pews where you don’t preach Christ, the cross, blood, repentance, sin, death, wrath, or judgement. You keep it simple with finances, sex, and childrearing. Add it together and you have an HUGE apostate church.
PB-
Who? Who thinks they “know better than God” and in what way? Prove this.
Who are these “many”? What, specifically, do these “many” teach that says there are many ways to God? Prove it.
These ambiguous, generalized charges are pointless and do nothing but show just how little you know of what your condemning.
PB,
honestly…your bitterness about not getting Chris P’s job is shining through.
You don’t know anything about the people that are part of that network….
you really don’t.
You may take issue with the published work of Doug Pagitt and Brian Mclaren. Guess what? I do to with some things they say, but that’s not the same thing.
The fact you said the things you just did only further demonstrates your self-righteous ignorance.
Then again, given that Chris P got the job, self-righteous ignorance is now a fruit of that spirit.
If you actually got to know all the people that I know, you wouldn’t be able to say the things you say.
How does it feel being a man-centered sycophant?
Pastorboy,
You are a perfect example of why education is not a panacea of much of anything except pride.
What has always struck me is how profoundly ignorant of the claims of emerging folks the critics tend to be.
For example, one of the largest topics of emerging conversation is that what is being taught and practiced isn’t new, but is rather reviving practices of historic Christians that has been let drop to the wayside in the last hundred years. Meanwhile emerging critics have as part of their metanarrative that emerging churches are a profoundly new permutation and therefore are a break from historic Christianity. I’ve never seen a critic address this particular topic, probably because it cuts off at the knees their belief in what they themselves are, and views ODMs and their ilk as the interloper. Or perhaps its just because most emerging critics haven’t taken the time to actually listen to what they’ve decided vehemently criticize.
I am so weary of these hearing these baseless claims by people who won’t take the time to listen to the very people they are judging. PB, I don’t know if they teach you this in your so-called Masters course or not, but it is ALWAYS wise to understand and know the position and the context from where a person is coming from before you even begin to offer a critique. You and other ODM’s show time and time again your intellectual dishonesty when you skip this very important part of honest dialog and debate.
Mike Ratlliff was going on and on in his blog about how Rob Bell denies the virgin birth. When pressed, he admitted that he hasn’t even read Bell’s stuff but he has many “trusted friends” who have and he has read their critiques. When I quoted direct from Bell himself how he affirms the virgin birth and the historic doctrines and creeds of the church he STILL refused to retract his lies. He would rather believe his “friends” understanding of another person rather than listen to that person first.
You can see that for yourself here: http://mikeratliff.wordpress.com/2008/08/03/rob-bell-the-pastor%e2%80%99s-task-of-discernment-and-my-heart/
After this, Mike blocked me from his blog. Talk about being scared of truth.
I seriously do not know if your (generally speaking) just plain ignorant or if you are just so full of hate that you refuse to see any good in anyone whom you have already predetermined is an apostate. Honestly, I hope it is the former over the latter. It is much easier to forgive and overlook ignorance.
It should be very easy for you to prove that MANY leaders show they know more than God or the Bible and that they believe there are many paths to God. I look forward to seeing your “sources.”
peace,
Chad
it’s ok to disagree…even vigorously…
but good heavens…
talk about mischaracterizing your “enemy”…
even if you disagree doesn’t mean you get to “bear false witness”….
Some experiences of talking past Tony Jones in a non-conversation doesn’t mean you understand what’s happening.
I’ve been immersed in many encounters with many people who are part of that network and they are, by and large, theologically sound.
They regard the people who get the attention as being provocateurs, friends, etc. but they certainly don’t walk lock-step with all their views.
Chad,
This is easily shown.
Samir Salmonovic and his Faith House. Supported by EV, given props by Pagitt, McLaren, Jones, etc. A church, a Mosque, a Synagogue. All three monotheistic religions under one roof. Finding Jesus in the ‘Other’. Denying the exclusivity of Jesus as Savior, Lord, and GOD.
Pagitt’s own Solomons’s Porch. Yoga instead of Sunday morning services. Yoga is a satanic based demonic worship. Acceptance of ‘the other’. Promotion and support of homosexual causes. Promotion and support of man-centered arts, and glorification of that above God. Promotion of polytheism, universalism, and other isms through either silence or tacit approval within church.
EV, and the general promotion of the ancient practices: These ancient practices are generally of the Roman Catholic mystics including monks. This is not the practice of the real ancients- Paul, Peter, James, John. We avoid their teachings, which include condemnation of gnostic heresy and practices that do not include Christ at their core instead of as an afterthought. We are called to be of sound mind and of sober judgement, not to empty our mind and mumble repeated words and phrases to juice ourselves up into some sort of altered spiritual state.
Need any more Chad?
I can go on!
Good, because you haven’t even started. In your Masters levels studies haven’t they taught you what first hand research is?
Wow. That’s simply amazing.
Yeah, Chad, Mike has always been a pretty ‘good’ team player. Why confuse me with the truth when the lies of my friends are so much more appealing?
PB-
At first glance at your post I see nothing. You claim that MANY emergent leaders claim they know more than God and the Bible and that they believe there are many paths to God. You haven’t even gotten close to proving that. All you have done is tried to prove your piont by making them all guilty by association. Sorry, that doesn’t work in a world of adults who care seriously about representing other human beings rightly and justly and fairly.
This is simple, PB. If I said, “Oprah believes there are many paths to God,” and you asked me to prove it I could take you to several video casts of her saying exactly that. I wouldn’t need to show you what Dr. Phil says or thinks Oprah thinks.
Try to use primary sources, PB, or it’s all just smoke.
Bo -
No kidding. And did you catch his flip, “here’s Bell’s stupid comment…” after I showed him how mistaken he was? Rather than be humble and say, “gee, I guess he does believe in the virgin birth” he gets angry and calls it all “stupid.” Sad.
Chris L-
Yep. Christianity would be such a bore if we couldn’t divide and conquer.
Yoga is a form of exercise that some have used for pagan practice, but that doesn’t make it “satanic based demonic worship”.
Tell me, PB – which body positions are ontologically evil?
lol.
PB-
I am choosing not to address, for now, your aversion to various spiritual practices. I know you hate anything that smacks of Catholicism or Eastern othodoxy but that is your hang up, not God’s. For now, I am interested to hear your primary sources that prove your accusations that MANY emergent leaders know more than God and believe any or many paths get you to God.
peace.
Oh so because, Pagitt’s church has a Sunday night service, they’re bad news. Where can I sign up for this Masters Level research?
yeah…cuz church history jumps from the apostles to the middle church and some of its excesses…
PB…your understanding of church history is…lacking.
RE: emergent
yes..3-4 people out of thousands…
that’s the litmus test.
sorry, PB, sycophantic drones don’t comprise emergent village. that’s you and your ODM heroes.
talk about projection.
sometimes PB is so far off it is ridiculous… I wish he was rational enough to have a real exchange with.
But man talk about a pack of lies and slander against Samir and Pagitt.
Samir preaches Jesus and talks about looking for Jesus in the other meaning that God is at work in the unbeliever leading them to JEsus… PB lies and twists this to be something evil… calling the wooing and calling of Jesus and the Holy Spirit demonic…
He then states that Pagitt’s church is all about Yoga… I think they have a Yoga class, but I think one would be surprised how “normal” his church is. They have teaching, and guest speakers… they use… gasp Bibles… my guess is that PB has never actually done any research or listened to anything Paggit has taught at Solomon’s Porch.
Really PB lies so much it and it is so sad. Liar and slanderers will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
My prayer is for him to stop sinning and repent… to come to Jesus and leave his legalistic and hateful ways… to learn the Way of Jesus and of God’s loving Kindness… than PB not have so much contempt for GOd’s loving Kindness and extend grace, mercy and love to others instead of lies, slander and hate…
I pray that PB stops using Jesus to harm and attack others… that he stops misusing Jesus to judge and condemn others…
In Jesus Name,
iggy
yeah, yeah…Jesus is your hero…
iggy,
isn’t ironic that PB’s guru, Ken, calls emergent a cult?
NC,
In as humble a way as possible, I will stand against any of you or your cronies when it comes to church history. That is my undergrad degree, friend, and a personal passion of mine. May I say from that study that there is nothing new under the sun, the gnostics that think they have secret knowledge are still running around and are rampant in the EV ‘network’ of churches. Where that is truly dangerous is when these tares end up in mainline and ‘evangelical’ churches.
Joe,
Long time no see! I guess your vacation is over! I am glad to see you back! I didn’t say Sunday night services are bad, I said practicing yoga in a ‘church’ on sunday morning, worshiping pagan deities, is bad.
Chris L and Chad,
Yoga is a form of occult worship that some ‘christians’ enjoy using for stretching and health etc. However, you cannot remove the demonic pantheistic worship from it. This is a major practice of the Hindu faith, it is used for worship of many gods, and if you ask a Hindu, or a true yoga practicioner, they will tell you that you cannot remove the spiritual significance from the different positions. What pose is ontologically evil? All of em.
Bait and switch? Yep. Emergents call it ancient/future when in reality it is Church/Paganism
I want to thank PB for pointing me towards Samir Selmanovic. I had not heard of him until now and am grateful for the chance to read up on him a bit. Sounds like he, a Christian, is doing some wonderful, exciting things to help spread the hope and peace the gospel begs us to embrace.
Here is an interesting interview between Samir and McLaren. In it you can’t miss how Chirst-centered McLaren’s vision really is.
http://samirselmanovic.typepad.com/faith_house/2007/09/interview-with-.html
I applaude McLaren for engaging Samir in this discussion and his prayers and support for anyone willing to bring healing to a world ravaged by division, secrets, religiousity and triumphalism.
peace.
I really don’t know where to start, this is like trying to explain how a nuclear reactor works to someone who just had electricity put in their house.
Chad has already pointed out the flaws in how you deal with Church history. What’s worse is your ignorance of the emerging conversation. To act like EV has been anything more than a minor footnote is an example of ignorance that goes beyond my ability to express. I would suggest that you take the time to understand the people you’re criticizing before you. Of course that would require actual time and effort.
PB-
I guess you can’t remove the pagan goddess or bull worship out of baptism than either, huh? Was your baptsim unto Jesus or the cult of Enke, lord of Eridu?
..from http://www.discoveret.org/lcoc/news/00n0509.htm
Anyways, still waiting for those primary sources which prove your accusations. Unlike Mike Ratliff, here you won’t be able to just call something “stupid” and then ban myself and others because you don’t like what you read.
test. I just posted something and it isn’t here – did it go to moderation perhaps?
Iggy,
You are lying about me.
I have attended three services at Solomons Porch.
I have blogged about one. The Bible was used, but it was misquoted.
I have quoted repeatedly Samir on my own site. How can you twist his own words? He believes that Jesus can be found in other religions. He believes ultimately that you can be a Muslim and go to heaven without repentance and faith in Christ.
Iggy, you are being fooled.
There are many emergents that desire an experience of Christ without the Lordship aspect. I admire their desire to make this world a better place, to love the unlovely. But they remove the aspect that is most important and central- WHO is Jesus? Why did He come? Is he the only way to heaven?
Sadly, Samir would say no. So would his mom, who hides her faith as she worships in a mosque to save her own neck. This is where he gets his example, and his desire to make all monotheistic religions one.
I have gone to SP more than once, heard the messages. One conversation was based on the beatitudes. LOOSELY. The others were a comparison between the life of a child and the life of Jesus. On Muslim/Jewish/Christian
idolalatryiconography. I even witnessed a communion service so much like Paul’s description of the Corinthian service that I had to leave the room it was so noisy and obnoxious.So get it straight, Iggy. After all, I am coming to your church soon.
PB-
Still waiting on your primary sources that prove MANY emergent leaders believe they know more than God and the Bible and that there are many paths to God.
Thanks.
Chad,
Samir Selmanovic was a challenge for me. In a good way. I had to listen a few times myself to catch what he meant… so when someone like PB states lies as he did about Samir, I can tell they did absolutely no research but just read one of KS’s “mistakives” and believed the BS he said.
ODM’s seem to be on the level if not worse than the National Enquirer… worse because they claim to be christian and state the truth… but it is lies wrapped in the veneer of truth… or as Hank Hanegraaff says it, “lies in the skin of truth”‘. What they say sounds good on the surface, then if you dig deeper you find a profound lack of knowledge in Christian History, doctrines… and most of all the actions from the fruit that is of Jesus.
I see Jesus as loving toward sinners and the unlovable… and angry at the judgmentalism and condemnation of the Pharisee… ODM’s desire that others be like them and judge and condemn others and justify their unloving actions.
I see these people as sick… if not hinging on demonic.
iggy
This is absolute bluster on your part pastorboy. You don’t really believe this, and you said it because it made you feel like you were an ODM superhero, fighting for the culture of your grandfather by pretending to be fighting for the faith.
This is easily demonstrated with this question: if someone accidentally or unknowingly positions their body in a yoga pose are they worshiping a pagan god?
Bo,
I can write at length, and have done so, in other places.
This is a forum focussed on bait and switch.
We can take this to e-mail, and I can produce VOLUMES.
But if you just want to snipe, I understand.
Careful, PB, you just might be on the verge of disproving yours and everyone elses baptisms…
PB, was your baptism in Christ or was it rooted in the cult of Enke, lord of Eridu? Since you seem to argue that nothing is redeemable, even yoga, than this must hold true for the ancient practice of baptism, right?
Chad:
http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
TONS of em. Too many to list here, just because this is a OP about bait and switch.
PB,
I promised not to address you anymore…
Yet,
You have a multitude of witnesses who agree you are a slanderer and an liar… please stop.
So…
have a great day and stop lying about me and others.
iggy
Pastorboy surrenders in two consecutive posts, glad to see this is over.
Chad,
Watch out, your ignorance is showing.
Mine is based on the command of Christ in Matthew 28:18-20 where Jesus command us to go, make disciples, baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
When I am baptized in the name of the triune God, that means I am baptized in His name. Just because pagans dip in water and name their false gods (like yoga practicioners do) does not make the practice evil. What makes the practice eveil is it was founded by them for the worship of their false deities, and the mind emptying that happens with the rhyhmic breathing allows demonic spirits to enter in.
Much like the breathing Rob Bell promotes.
huh…thanks PB for looking into my mind and heart. Maybe there could be a power sharing arrangement for you Chris P…
I don’t think there’s any secret knowledge, etc. etc. and neither do any of my friends. If you’re talking about Brian McLaren…then keep it about him…but you don’t know these people in all these “networks”…
So that demonstrates right there you’re talking out of your backside.
btw, There are no EV networks of “churches”….it’s a network of personal relationships.
But keep digging that hole PB…
I don’t have any cronies, so again I don’t know what you’re talking about precisely because you don’t know what you’re talking about.
another thing: “ancient practices’…yeah, that fasting, praying the psalms at regular intervals throughout the day for sake of punctuating our day with intentional prayer, retreats for silence and listening to the voice of God in Scripture and prayer (something you clearly need to do…i.e. stop running your mouth)…
yeah…those evil, pagan things.
honestly, PB, you have nothing to stand on but your cultish assertions of the party line of your guru (Ken), High Priestess (ingrid), and the various blogging imams and their propaganda.
frankly, if this represents your “masters” level work, I’m not too confident in your undergrad training either.
seriously…cronies?
Who talks like that?
breathing that let’s demons in?
And YOU’RE critical of the middle ages?
I guess body piercing is also bad because it creates more entry points into the body too?
Yeah…and the “charismatics” are the culprits…
yeeeeeesh…
PB-
Ok, I really am convinced now that you are just ignorant and do not understand how to have an intelligent, reasonable, honest conversation.
Linking to a blog is NOT a primary source.
If what you claim is true, and there are LOTS of these smoking guns, it should be VERY simple for you to offer up even ONE of them. So please, once more, where it the smoking gun that you claim proves that MANY emergent leaders believe they know more than God and the Bible and that there are MANY paths to God?
This isn’t Mike Ratliff’s blog where you can just call something or someone stupid and then ban them for being insistent on the truth.
I would really like to see all this proof from the horse’s mouth that justifies your judgments.
Thanks,
Chad
NC
Anytime you want to discuss church history at length, or any of your compadres, friends, peers, whatever, my blog is open for all comments, even when they do display ignorance.
Iggy,
You lie about me. I won’t sue you for slander, but it would be a demonstration of Christ in you if you would please stop it.
the only thing that makes me sad is that PB will use this exchange to prove that “the world hates him” because he follows Jesus…
excuse me while I go puke.
Actually, puking might be good…isn’t that how the demons come out?
PB,
It’s the least you could do since this site lets you display yours all the time.
Okay, Chad.
You will have to take this up with Chris L
Why? So you can lie about it also?
I got it straight.. you lie and slander others… and slander me…
Tell me one emerging/emergent that denies Jesus is Lord? If anything they call Him King… for we are out spreading His Kingdom… again you lie about people.
Most likely I wont even be there… as I miss most Sundays due to my work schedule… so… what’s the point… You can go to any Vineyard and see what we do… we are more conservative than most and definitely not “reformed”… so what will you say?
Even if I am there, I may say hi, but not engage you as I believe you are a man of violence and have publicly threatened me… then denied it… but you did.
I do not hang out with people who purposely harm others.
Come enjoy the worship… enjoy Pastor Allen… he is teaching through Mark right now… hey… maybe you will even get saved! Maybe you will find JEsus and have a changed heart! Maybe you will be filled with the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues! Maybe you will find the loving kindness of God and come to repentance! Maybe you will learn to extend grace and mercy to others… to see Jesus in the other…
Salvation is at hand PB… even for you.
I have had enough of your lies and hate today… sorry I interacted. I am still praying that Jesus changes your heart for His.
iggy
Here is more Chad,
Again, not my fault Chris L
PB-
lol. I hope you know I really do find you funny. You have just argued that yoga in all its forms is evil and not of God. You then say this about baptism:
Correct! Now, what does make it evil, PB? You answer that as well:
So the pracitce of baptims (or yoga) is not evil in and of itself, as you have now proven (while contradicting yourself in the process). What makes something evil is the object of its desire. Yoga can certainly be an “idol” that can lead one to look to other gods. So can baptism, as you have pointed out. However, just like baptism that has been redeemed by Christ, so too can yoga be used in such a way that Christ is glorified. It can become a form of prayer where the object is Jesus Christ, not some pagan mystic.
Still waiting on those primary sources.
peace.
That is great stuff PB… too bad you cannot read with comprehension and understand it.
iggy
huh…
so your example is McLaren…which means your issue is with…McLaren.
just coma-inducing.
3-4 people…out of thousands.
3-4 people…out of thousands
yikes…
Faith house Mission statement:
Is this a statement or an organization that you could align yourself with biblically? Believe it or not, there are several ‘christian’ groups, mostly of the NCC or the emergent brand that have. What is it, that keeps us as the Church doctrinally pure enough to be able to recognize things as apostasy..or do we not?
The CMA Statement of Faith vs. Rob Bell’s Velvet Elvis:
So, Pastor, should you show NOOMA videos? Should you allow the youth pastor to do so? Only if you want to produce little universalist followers of Rob Bell who question eveything and do not believe in a tock solid interpretation of the Bible.
PB-
I don’t know what you are trying to prove by the above quotes. You show a portion of an interview that we have been round and round many times and then rather than showing McLaren’s full view (he was only repeating back to Leif what Leif had just asked) you insert the commentary of others who are just as clueless as you seem to be on this matter. That is not a primary source.
Nothing in the Pagitt stuff you showed suggest mulitiple paths to God either. It does highlight the truth, however, that the Holy Spirit is working in ALL the world, not just in Christianity. That is marvelous news!
Remember how easy I said it would be for me to point you to a quote from Oprah that talks about all paths leading to God? Why is this so difficult for you?
“Should a Christian practice Yoga?”
Here are some quotes from the Bhagavad-Gita, regarding the practice of Yoga being in terms of proof of devotion of God. Read this article and see if Hindus think Christians should practice yoga:
Well, then we’d best not celebrate Christmas, or participate (or watch) the Olympics, or refer to the days of the week by their pagan names honoring the gods, etc., etc.
Let’s see, we won’t believe the hindus when they tell us anything else (they’re pagans), but if they say “you can’t sit in certain positions and meditate upon scripture without being in Hindu worship”, we’ll believe them because they just told us what we wanted to hear.
Are you really that obstuse and stupid? Really?
Well, perhaps we’d best tell that to Christian kids who participate in track and field, because I can guarantee you that most of the body positions they use while stretching for warm-ups (to prevent pulling muscles) are also yoga positions.
What sinners!
Idiocy.
nc
three or four LEADERS out of thousands of FOLLOWERS
three or four LEADERS out of thousands of FOLLOWERS
three or four LEADERS out of thousands of FOLLOWERS
three or four LEADERS out of thousands of FOLLOWERS
He is called an EVANGELICAL!!
Can’t you see the danger?!?!
Please pray for the family of my friend Russ Noland who died yesterday. If you knew him you can write some words on his wall at his Facebook account.
iggy
Who cares what they think.
Part of the problem is that our culture has adopted the word “yoga” to cover things that Hindus wouldn’t consider yoga. In the cultural parlance of the day, yoga is stretching and relaxation with meditation (non-specific to religion). So, when Christians participate in yoga, they can stretch, etc., and meditate upon scripture. However, when you’re around they’d best not talk about it, because they may lead their weaker brother to stumble…
I’m in the middle of my third wave of the NOOMA series now. Come by some time.
What does “do not bleieve in a rock[sic] solid interpretation of the Bible” mean? lol, PB. There is no such thing.
Bell believes in the centrality of Christ. Faith House is doing something unique that may or may not pan out. I am not as familiar with them but from what I have read thus far Samir is a Jesus-believing CHristian who is serious about spreading love to the “other.” As I recall, Jesus did the same thing.
You said MANY leaders believe they know more than God and believe there are many paths to God. You haven’t shown one primary source where an emergent leaders confesses this. All you have done is insinuated based on your own mis-interpretation of them (further proof that NO interpretation is “rock-solid” – that is the very definition of interpretation, PB).
Still waiting.
Possibly because it does not confirm his hatred of Christian brothers and the spirit of Torquemada that still lives today…
followers?
I don’t follow them…neither do any of the people that I know…
who, I repeat, you don’t know…
again, the “drones” aren’t in the EV
RE #104 – You’ve posted this before, PB, and we’ve dissected and proven your lies are just that – lies – before.
Sheesh
Praying for Russ’ family
I love my Christian brothers, Chris L
I hate false Christians who change the Gospel for a lie.
I’m in the middle of my third wave of the NOOMA series now. Come by some time.
Sadly, that explains a LOT.
Why not just read and study the scripture?
Oh, that would be too ancient.
This is like saying “of you ask a true Christian, they will tell you that you cannot remove the spiritual significance from baptism, so every time you take a bath, you’re participating in baptism.”
And it’s just about as true…
And now we have the justification for treating those Jesus died for like garbage. Simply define them as “false Christians” and then kick away.
Then perhaps you should demonstrate it by ceasing your neverending misrepresentations and outright lies about them…
Too bad you’ve added to what your “gospel” is when you get upset for them disagreeing with it… The Gospel, itself, is pretty short and sweet – all the cultural trappings and traditions of the past 200 years are not the Gospel – Calvinism isn’t the gospel (not even close)…
More primary sources
Chad, tell me when it is enough….
PB…
Man oh man… I wish I would not waste my time with you…
Now take all your CMA doctrinal stances and tell us in your own words from a personal stance and as if you were talking to someone who knew nothing of these… explain it as if you were a person talking to a person…
I bet you will sound a bit like Rob Bell… I mean I have heard you talk before and you are like jello nailed to a wall… you are more all over the place than Tony Jones on a bad day!
Really… your judging and condemnation and incapability to understand things not to menation how you can even add more to the slander you have stated is almost overwhelming…
May Jesus help you.
iggy
Each NOOMA is filled with scripture. What you are advocating will make preaching obsolete as well. Why not just tell people to stay home and read their Bible?
PB,
Enough is enough…
You have grossly taking Doug out of context and twisted his quote to mean somethign opposite he was saying…
I already pointed this out and you refuse to see that you are wrong.
Again… you lie and slander Doug Paggit…
Repent…
iggy
huh…
worse than mistaking an enemy for a friend is the mistaking of a friend for an enemy.
PB…you don’t know anything about my position on the gospel or any of my friends…
You can take issue all day long with your 3-4 people that you have a negative man-crush on…but you don’t have any right to sweep us all away…
sorry.
you don’t know me.
you dont’ know my friends.
you don’t know my theology.
huh…
worse than mistaking an enemy for a friend is the mistaking of a friend for an enemy.
PB…you don’t know anything about my position on the gospel or any of my friends…
You can take issue all day long with your 3-4 people that you have a negative man-crush on…but you don’t have any right to sweep us all away…
sorry.
you don’t know me.
you dont’ know my friends.
you don’t know my theology.
you don’t know what you’re talking about.
false christians…
seriously…you really wish you got that job didn’t you?
maybe you can be the deputy assistant Holy Spirit, PB?
or the Holy Spirit, first runner up?
In the event that Chris P cannot perform his duties, you can step in.
ick.
PB…
I regret interacting with you again…
iggy
Chad,
Because we are commanded to fellowship, around the preaching of God’s Word, preaching will not become obsolete.
Of course, the sermons in the emergent/seeker/purpose churches just have some scripture sprinkled into a topic, so I can see your point.
The old bait and switch.
Iggy,
I don’t.
I love fellowshipping with you!
Nc,
Why don’t you share then? I would be VERY interested.
Amen. That is how it ought to be. Sadly, in the last 100 years or so, some Christians have elevated the Bible to the same level as Christ. Johnny Mac, in his new book, puts Scripture and Christ on the SAME LEVEL! That is heresy, sorry.
The Bible POINTS to the ineffable and infinite. It is not that in and of itself.
Amen again. That is what salvation is about, at its core. What do you think salvation is about?
This is great wisdom. We are not to make followers of Christianity, PB, but disciples of Jesus Christ. That is Brian’s point – and a great one. What do you disagree with?
You are getting better at at least quoting from the source. Now, find those MANY that claim they know more than God and that ALL paths lead to God.
Thanks,
Chad
More factless meanderings on your part, PB. Prove it.
huh…so glad to know you’re at all those sermons, PB.
I mean, how do you do it?
Because heaven forbid that we actually apply scripture to everyday life instead of keeping it in its pristine, abstract form where we can do all sorts of mental gymnastics and make pronouncements that make us feel a whole lot better that our version of “the Truth” is equal to God’s truth, and everyone else is on the verge of hell for disagreeing with us.
When we do a NOOMA we have great fellowship and interaction with people engaging God’s word and digging deeper into a life with Christ.
You make the sermon obsolete because you suggest the only thing important is for people to go read their Bibles. My point to you was that not even you believe this in practice, as your insistence on sermons and preaching shows.
Heading out with the fam. PB, I look forward to finding more of your primary source “proof” when I return.
peace.
Who knew that my being immersed in scripture all week when I preach really isn’t what is happening…?
Chad,
Well stated on all points.
Jesus himself backs up what Parker states.
So what I hear PB saying is that he disagrees with Parker who agrees with Jesus… so PB disagrees with Jesus.
Paul also stated in Galatians.
Worse… PB wants what was given to us by Angels to be equal with God!
The Bible is important… but truly worthless without Jesus. It then is a book of rules without life. As Jesus stated, the scripture cannot give life… and people like PB seem to refuse to go to Jesus for life and keep going otthe bible to get what it cannot give…
PB, Come to Jesus… come to life in Christ… forsake you own ways.
Also, instead of lying and slandering others. learn what the bible says… and try to understand it’s meaning…
iggy
Why is pastorboy busy visiting churches in Billings Montana? Did his church finally get fed up with him?
Chad…
PB wont give you proof cuz he can’t and if he does you need to check it out as he twists facts like pretzels.
iggy
PB -
Another area that you seem to misunderstand is missiology. Your critique of followers of Jesus who live in Muslim contexts does not appear to be very well informed. There is a growing (albeit controversial) movement sometimes called the insider movement which seeks to evangelize from within a Muslim context, not in order to make Christians, but to make followers of Jesus who can follow faithfully while still carrying on many of the cultural practices of their Muslim heritage. This would be similar to groups like Jews for Jesus who are not trying to create Christians, but Messianic Jews.
In growing numbers throughout the middle east, there are “Jesus mosques” which continue to follow the patterns of prayer and fasting but who have redirected their worship to Jesus.
I understand that you will find this abhorrent, but I want you to recognize that there are very prominant evangelical scholars who believe that this is a faithful approach to missions and evangelism. I also want you to recognize that there are other reasons besides fear that someone who follows Jesus might remain in a Muslim cultural context. Before you jump in and criticize these poeople, you might want to take some time to get to know them.
Corey,
As you know, I am familiar with missions and contexts. i know many missionaries in these closed nations personally, pray for them, with them. I understand the difficulty.
However, comparing Jews for Jesus? Comeon. There is a natural transition from Judaism to Christianity, and having the ability of being a fulfilled or completed messianic Jew, as one who stays in their jewishness having found the Messiah.
None of my friends in Muslim Countries would ever conceive of making a Jesus mosque. They find that abhorant. They certainly would not go to a mosque to save their skin like some do. They would be those like Ghassan Thomas who lives as a Christian amongst Muslims, loving them the way Jesus would, and being able to practice with no apologies, His faith, even having them at a commissioning/baptism service. We can practice disciplines of fasting and prayer without compromising and calling ourselves messianic muslims. The Muslims I have spoken to personally even find that ridiculous.
Bo,
I visit churches all over, especially ones that have those who used to hang out with the Hells Angels as bouncers in the church.
Fascinating.
PB -
I knew you wouldn’t like it!! Anyway, while some might go to the mosque to save their skin, that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about people who remain culturally Muslim (as Messianic Jews remain culturally Jewish) in order to better reach their friends and family for Christ. (I seem to recall even Paul making vows and visiting the temple…).
I know that your worldview does not allow you to see that there might be other reasons for remaining culturally Muslim apart from fear of persecution, but maybe that’s a problem with your worldview and doesn’t match with reality.
There are many ways of approaching missions and evangelism. I would never denigrate someone like Ghassan Thomas, whose story is absolutely incredible, but the last I heard, he was in exile while those who remain culturally Muslim while faithfully following Jesus are still able to effectively evangelize their people. Just a thought.
PB-
Still no primary sources? I am disappointed, though not too suriprised.
Let me ask you this: Unlike your friend Mike Ratliff who bawked when he was confronted with the truth regarding Bell’s belief on the virgin birth, would you be able to listen and/or read McLaren, Bell, Pagitt, Kimball or any of the MANY other emergents out there and take them at their word? IOW, if you were shown that these people actuaully DO believe in the centrality of Jesus Christ and that that scriptures are authoritative would you even care? Or would you do what Mike does and call that stupid and choose to believe the critics over the person? Would you at the very least admit that MANY in fact DO believe Jesus is the way to the Father and that to say otherwise is ignorant on your part at best and just plain lying at worst?
Chad,
You are so busy slamming Mike Ratliff, I do not even know what you are asking.
I have read, for example, Doug Pagitt. He says he does agree with the central tenants of the Christian faith. He says he is not a universalist. But out of the other side of the mouth, he states that all people regardless of faith will be reconciled and restored on the last day.
Which Doug Pagitt do I believe?
In the same vein, Brian McLaren calls himself an evangelical, holding to the central positions of the faith, yet he approves of the homosexual lifestyle, not to mention how he views the cross of Christ. Not only this, but he shares views about universal atonement which are simply not Biblical
Which Brian McLaren do I believe?
pastorboy has been spot on accurate in each of his statements in this combox and methinks the veracity of his comments has stirred up the residents quite a bit.
pastorboy,
Keep contending for the faith. It may be that by God’s grace someone will stumble upon the truth that you’re sharing and will be delivered from darkness unto light.
On a somewhat related note I couldn’t help but notice that some commenters demanded for “names to be named” with respect to emergent/emerging error and when PB named names his claims were simply rejected out of hand. Is this “team politics” at play or is it “bait and switch”?
Since there seems to be an active crew of participants in this thread may I ask a direct question to each of you? Maybe in this manner we can avoid the frequent objection of “misquoting” and “misunderstanding” the statements of others, yes?
Here we go:
According to you understanding of the Holy Bible what is the primary purpose for which God created mankind, and by extension you personally? By this I mean the most fundamental and foundational purpose for your personal existence?
Thanks in advance to those who are willing to answer this sincere question in a precise, straightforward, and clearly worded manner.
In Christ,
CD
Interestingly, I find that emergents are the exact opposite. I know Tony Jones and Doug Pagitt somewhat well and have met Brian McLaren, Peter Rollins, and others. In all cases, without exception, I find them to be people who are absolutely convinced that they know less than God and His Word and therefore approach Scripture with absolute fear, respect, and humility.
The dilemma that has been created in this conversation is kind of fascinating. PB has made this assertion and Chad has asked him to defend it. Yet in order to defend it, PB’s only possible response is to say “I know more about the truth of God and His word than they do, therefore my understanding is right and they are wrong.”
In other words, in order to defend your position, you have to speak for God. To me, that’s a pretty terrifying and tenuous position to be in. Do you really want to claim that you are speaking for God in your attacks on emergent Christians? I’m much more comfortable with a more “emergent” position of humility toward the text and those who disagree with me.
PB-
Now we are getting somewhere.
If you know this, PB, then why do you insist on spreading lies about what he and others believe?
I am not so sure Pagitt is wrong here. But even if he is, there is no reason to say he believes there are many paths to God. This is not universalim, per se, PB, and I wish we had the time and I wish I thought you had the desire to actually hash this out in more detail.
To be very brief: Jesus is Lord of ALL. In Christ, God is reconciling ALL things to himself. God desires that NONE should perish but ALL have eternal life in him. Jesus died for the sins of the WORLD. We have been reconciled to God.
All of this is scripture, PB. Now, you can claim that you know better because people have to go to hell or else your Bible lies. But I would disagree. Hell may be a very real reality but that does not trump or negate God’s sovereign desire and love of all creation – the creation God made and declared “good” and has been striving since Gen. 3 onward to woo it back unto Him and did so in Jesus Christ. When Pagitt says that one day all things will be reconciled back to God he is quoting scripture and he is not saying that ALL paths will get you there (as if WE could do it on our OWN) but rather GOd, in Christ, has ALREADY made the path and if God so chooses to save those you would love to damn than glory to God! It will be because of Jesus that He does so.
As for universal atonement and the view of the cross that is answered above. So what if McLaren “approves” of the homosexual lifestyle? Lets assume he is mistaken, ok? So what? Does that make him a heretic? Does that mean he is not saved? Does this mean he believes that ALL paths lead to God? No! It means he is interpreting scripture on this issue differently than you do and has a different ethic in this area.
None of us are perfect, PB. If you have no sin in your life or if your theology (and therefore, you knowledge of the infinte God) is so perfect than feel free to throw stones. But if you are human, try to learn to show grace to other Christians. You have been shown much grace, and of such much will be demanded.
peace,
Chad
CD-
Sorry, but this sort of self-righteous rhetoric makes everything you say afterwards moot. You lose all credibility when you stand on your high-horse.
Amen, corey. Great observation.
Isn’t irony sweet?
God created everything for His glory and according to His good pleasure. In today’s parlance, “because that’s what He wanted to do”.
As for my personal creation, it is to bring unassailable truth to the world and provide a constant source of irritation to as many people I can, most of whom remain woefully incapable of digesting even the simplest form of communicative grace I continue to offer without financial remuneration.
I hope this helps.
Rick,
I am not sure I understand
No, Chad. Paul was speaking to those who are in Christ…the elect. He has reconciled the elect NOT the whole world. He died for the whole world, it was effective for the whole world, but it is only efficient for those who are the elect, those who would believe.
Methinks I understand why you like McLaren and Pagitt..you agree with them, or so it sounds, in terms of universalism.
Not all will be saved, reconciled, or restored on the last day. The Bible (not my Bible) is very clear about that. We must repent and beleive- both coming from God- in the Christ. No one else will be reconciled and restored.
I show grace to all, because I am but a flawed human being saved by grace. I am wretched, nothing good in myself. I can and have been wrong. But when I see clear unbiblical teaching, I must speak out.
Chad – I appreciate your honesty which of course reflects the obvious. The limits of my literary condescention are being sorely tested, and I definitely am sympathetic to your plight, especially since help from others is unavailable due to the perfect symmetry of their condition to yours.
Keep pursuing, it’s all you have Luke.
Obi-Wan Frueh.
Why?
Corey – because the Scriptures exhort us to reprove and rebuke with all longsuffering and doctrine. Galations and Colossians are entire books written by Paul to refute unbiblical teaching. I am not sure why you would question it.
Well, I disagree, PB. But I am not suprised that you would twist the clear meaning of scripture to fit a systematic theology like Calvinism.
The cross is so000 scandalous it offends even many Christians.
Maybe, maybe not. The point, however that IF THEY ARE it will be because of Jesus Christ and no one else – THAT is the point of Pagitt, McLaren and any one else whom you mistakingly call universalists. Therefore, your accusation that MANY believe that all paths lead to God is incorrect.
I guess my question is more related to practicality. If I were to speak out every time I read or heard unbiblical teaching, I would find myself doing nothing else. And I would argue that both Galatians and Colossians (especially Colossians) primarily correct by teaching proper doctrine and practice, not by tearing down every false teaching that could possibly exist. In Colossians in particular, scholars debate the nature of the Colossian heresy because Paul is not very explicit about what it is. Instead, he writes an encouraging letter about the supremacy and centrality of Christ, etc. While rebuke is certainly part of Paul’s rhetoric, it isn’t the only (or primary) way that he corrects. I would love to see a lot more teaching than rebuking. As the scripture in 2 Timothy indicates (which you notably left out Rick…) we are to correct, rebuke and ENCOURAGE.
Corey,
Its what we can do when our message is done!
OK – How you rebuke, etc., is different than not speaking.
So the message is rebuke followed by encouragement?
Corey, haven’t you heard? They will know you by your rebuke-iness
I would say rebuke is done in love and grace, which is encouragement itself. We should not wait to show grace until AFTER any disagreement, grace should be the currency with which Christians communicate.
The deeper the disagreement, the greater the canvas with which to showcase God’s grace.
But I would still argue that there are plenty of times when not speaking is the appropriate response. The ODM-type websites that list ministries, churches, pastors, etc. and publicly rebuke them are not confronting false teaching in the way Paul was describing. Paul was writing to people that he knew and confronting the teaching that was happening within a church where he had some degree of authority (whether positional or relational).
The desire to publicly rebuke “false teachers” where there is no relationship, no connection, seems silly to me. I don’t understand what it is supposed to accomplish. It clearly isn’t intended to correct and rebuke the false teacher, because it is not directed to the teacher. At that point it stops being about what Paul and Timothy were doing and becomes more like angry gossip (or clanging gongs if you will).
I believe in the podcast Rosebrough was addressing the teaching or seeming lack thereof in a certain church. I saw no personal rebuke of the pastor.
In the context he was addressing a certain movement or ecclesiastical structure.
I was speaking more generally than just referring to this post. I’m really trying to understand why some people feel the need to rebuke false teachers and teachings that they have no connection with.
I would add that “love and grace” should include at a minimum of first knowing who and what you are attempting to rebuke. Like I said elsewhere, this is something that ODM’s, by their very nature of being “online” will always fall short of doing. Most of them don’t even know half of what they are “rebuking” and only jump on the band wagons of their “trusted friends.”
I would bet the ranch on the fact that PB and others could not articulate for me or anyone else what McLaren or Bell’s theology is, let alone their soteriology. And yet, they feel totally confident to rebuke something the can’t even get their head around.
Great point, corey. I don’t know either. Paul was dealing with churches he began in many cases and if not he was dealing with people he knew and situations that were connected to him and the people he cared for.
So much more good could be done if we would just love God and love our neighbor. If it is false, it won’t last – it’ll fade away eventually. Is God on the throne or not?
Where is the ranch located?
I do not feel that it is such a stretch to believe there is a problem when people answer question like the survey showed. That to me is not nitpicking. I’ve seen much worse.
I have seen Mrs. Schlueter criticize that same church (I think) for inviting a beauty queen to give her testimony of restoration and redemption in Christ about which IS was ignorant of the facts.
That is nitpicking.
“If it is false, it won’t last – it’ll fade away eventually. Is God on the throne or not?”
Then why does anyone post here about others? Isn’t God on the throne?
A sucker’s bet since he’s already shown he has no idea what they teach.
Chris L responded to this already. The first few quotes PB used have already been responded to on this site. I searched the first few and then got bored with the predictability of the exercise.
Which again points to the shoddiness of his research, and I suspect the shoddiness of the thought he’s put into the issues.
How purpose driven of you. ¡Qué malo!
Next to the boat I’ll sell you.
Well then, PB, what is Rob Bell’s theology? I’ll be specific even: Please articulate Bell’s understanding of salvation.
Rick, I ask myself this all the time and come closer and closer to making the decision to not log on anymore. That day is coming.
In the meantime, I post here because I learn something from engaging with all of you. I also count most of you as friends and enjoy our banter. It also gives me a chance to air out some thoughts and ideas I have regarding God and life, two areas I am keen on. And on some days I hope I can show to the reading public that not all Christians are sticks in the mud or so wrapped up in getting their doctrine straight they forget that the gospel is about healing the world.
ODM’s post to prove I am going to hell and they are not. I post to show that despite their self-righteous judgements I look forward to the day when we will feast together at God’s banquet.
Although Paul did rebuke false teachings, his main mode of operation was to go make a bunch of converts and teach them. It seems to me that at some point it becomes unproductive to yell at the Titanic as it goes down.
Build your own boat and invite everyone who isn’t yet on a boat to “come aboard!” Bring lost people to Christ doesn’t seem to get much mileage as a vehicle to confront error by discernment ministries.
Well said
Have a great evening everyone. I’m off to hang out with Peter Rollins and his friends from Ikon at Solomon’s Porch. Fun with heretics! Maybe I’ll get an opportunity to confront false teaching!!
huh…
PB,
Colossians 1 explicitly states that the whole created order is being saved by Christ.
How do you explain that?
Seems “the plain meaning” is, well, the plain meaning.
Methinks, that pesky thing called the bible you claim to love is a stumbling block to you.
CD,
yes, pat yourself and PB on the back.
Such faithful contentiousness…ooops…I mean “contending”.
FYI:
What stirs people up is broadbrush strokes, mischaracterizations and the insistence that you really know what’s in a persons heart.
In other words, sin.
So much for “emergents” being soft on sin…
yeah, we love it when people bear false witness, lie and try to dominate others…in the name of Jesus.
get over yourself.
sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESH.
Oh and I forgot to answer this rather Warrenesque question. So here goes: To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with God.
I mean how obtuse can some of you people be?
The issue to me is not things you can find wrong with 3-4 people…you can find something lacking/mistaken in anyone’s theology.
what bothers me:
it’s the attribution of those mistakes to me and my friends and then assigning motives, intent and status before God, simply because I won’t bow to the domineering demands of people who have no spiritual authority in my life to “come out” from people I actually know and they don’t.
corey,
come out and be separate. Be ye holy for the Lord is holy.
I’ll pray for your false christian soul. It’s more than an ODM would actually do.
Bo…
Oh no…Bo. You didn’t add all the stuff about “all to the glory of God” and “only if I’m elect” and “if you don’t like it then you are unregenerate”.
PB,
Nope you are simply wrong and diminish the finished works of Christ by your theology…
Note the bible says.
Romans speaks of the reconciliation of “the world”… note it includes those not elect?
Note again…in
Funny that once again if you pull back from your myopic theology… and look at what the BIBLE teaches… it is bigger and more beautiful than how you paint it.
All are reconciled… yet, not all are saved… that is the good news and bad news… but it is also the power of the Gospel and the Blood of Jesus. By cliaming that only the Elect are reconciled, you call Paul a liar and thus God a liar… as He states otherwise.
iggy
iggy,
stop defending the unbiblical false christianity of Paul who traded the gospel for a lie!
just stop!
If you loved Jesus you would hate Paul…he’s a false Christian.
nc,
I know… If I would just toss out Paul and John and Jesus… I would then be a great Calvinist… but I can’t for some reason.
iggy
Apparently you don’t know PB all that well. It’s his stunning lack of grasp of truth that so often makes folks here do a facepalm, in embarrassment that such illiteracy passes for Christian commentary.
Nc pretty much summed up the truth of the “commentary” provided by PB in this thread:
While I’m not emerging or emergent, I understand quite well the truth in their observations of the modern church. It’s just sad that it takes people lying, mischaracterizing and playing GBA against brothers to feel good about themselves.
The same as the purpose given to Abraham – God has blessed us, so that we in turn will pass his blessings on to others. And I would also echo Micah, that we are to act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
PB,
I might add that not only are you at odds with Paul and Jesus… (the short biblical list) But A.W. Tozer disagrees with you also.
From the Pursuit of God
Again, you confuse reconciliation and Salvation… you confuse justification with salvation as a whole… You need to go back to bible college or attend one that teaches the bible…
iggy
PB-
I guess you weren’t really interested in that ranch afterall, huh?
Funny how ODM’s seem to not answer when scripture or their own hero’s disagree… I quoted a man who was really mentored by Walter Martin who stated WM called himself a Cal-minian… you see that is a “semi-pelagian” in Ken Silva’s heretic dictionairy… yet, Ken gave not answer… His hero according to Ken’s definition is a heretic.
So, here we have PB who was shown scripture which stated the opposite of his own theology… and a man who is one of the greatest in his own denomination.. and PB seems quiet… why?
When faced with truth it seems the ODM is at a loss for word if they cannot rationalize it away or justify their unbiblical actions.
iggy
Actually, Boys, I have a life outside of your little play area.
I gave multiple primary sources Chad, and all you did was dismiss the ones you didn’t like and agree with the ones you did. The unfortunate thing is, none of them agree with scripture.
Iggy,
You scream misquote and out of context, but you do it to Tozer oh so well. I thought you were not engaging me? Promises promises. I love Tozer, but I love scripture more. Again, reconciliation is NOT salvation. There is the opportunity for all men to be saved, for Christ’s blood is enough to pay for all sins. However, if you do not name Christ, do not trust Him alone for salvation through repentance and faith given by God, you cannot be saved from Hell. Pagitt, Bell, McLaren, et.al. believe this reconciliation means that we will be able to be reconciled and restored with all the Muslims, Hindus, and Jews on the last day into the ‘forevermore’ as Pagitt calls it.
Your emergent Oprahanity surprises even me, Iggy.
PB proved my point again… rationalizing it all away…
Nope not out of context at all… it is as I stated how he stated… as also the biblical text I gave you….
So twist away as you want, but the truth will set you free.
Forgive me for trying once again… but really I can see that with this one only prayer can cast it out.
iggy
Probably because all your “source material” has been debunked like a bad urban legend.
Perfect verses.
…who reconciled us to Himself through Christ…That is that through the death of Christ, reconcilialtion was God’s purpose, desire, passion…whatever. And Christ’s death paid the imbalance found in mankind’s accounts
and gave us the ministry of reconciliation… Gave who? Christians. gave what? The ministry of reconciliation…to bring people into agreement with God through repentance and faith through the atoning death of Jesus. That God (in the death of Christ) was reconciling the world to Himself- again, it was effective to reconcile the entire world. but some will not choose it. Only the elect- those God has chosen WILL BE SAVED!!!! and this is via the proclamation of the message of reconciliation- which God has entrusted to us. He has given us the ministry and the message of reconciliation- the good news that our sins can be forgiven us and we can enjoy peace with God.
PB,
So you deny the words of David?
And I guess you should heap Jude on the flames with those you mentioned…
Again, scritpure exposes your bad theology…
iggy
PB-
If you don’t recall, I asked you to articulate Bell’s understanding of salvation which you are so quick to condemn. I bet the ranch you could not and you asked where the ranch is, implying you could easily tell us what Bell believes in his own words. Apparently you cannot. Since you cannot even regurgitate the theology of another Christian the last thing you should be doing is regurgitating your own uninformed criticisms.
Iggy, you cannot pull two verses out and make theology. They must be seen through the lens of the rest of scripture. What opens the door of salvation is repentance and faith~ given by God- in the One who purchased it for us- Christ.
So what that means is that salvation is not universal.
So Pagitt, McLaren, Some of the church fathers, and Bell are WRONG.
Once again, you deny scripture… and based on a word you dislike… send people to hell… so sad PB…
Yep church fathers like David and Jude… are wrong according to you…
WOW! BTW there were 5 verses that are pretty sound…
iggy
Almost, PB. Change the “can” above to “have” and you are much closer to the biblical proclamation of the Good News.
All THINGS HAVE BEEN reconciled. God, through Christ, was reconciling the WORLD to himself.
The point you don’t seem to get over and over and over again is that IF all people end up being saved it is because of Christ’s work on Calvary and nothing else. This is true of you whether you believe it or not.
The Truth About You
Why do you assume there is “no connection” to men who are considered false teachers by some? Practically everyone whose teaching is brought up by ODM’s has made it’s way into some church, some Sunday school, some youth group, some college, some family member that I am connected with.
A teacher/writer/television personality doesn’t have to be personally involved in a church to make an impact in that church.
Chad,
All I could do is to ‘regurgitate’ Bell’s own statements form his own books, interviews, etc, which I have done repeatedly here and on my own site.
If this is Bell’s understanding of salvation, I am saddened. It is very loosely based on scripture, (there is none quoted here) and it has just enough truth that it is dangerous. Yes God wants to make us whole. It is part of the restoration (sanctification) process. Sanctification is a part of salvation, but salvation is by grace (which Rob does not mention here) through faith (which Rob does not mention here) Man does have a part; God accomplishes it all, but we must respond (and He gives us the faith to respond). Rob does not mention ANY of the essential elements of being engaged in salvation here. Besides, He does not really even believe in salvation, because what are we saved from? He does not believe in Hell:
After all, he does not even believe that we have a sin problem:
Why can’t I find scripture in Bell’s view of salvation? a low view of scripture- its all ’stories’ you see…
HT thinkerup.blogspot.com/2007/ 03/rob-bells-unbiblical-views.html
PB,
Once again… your reading comprehension skills are very much lacking…
Good grief… I am not even sure I should take you serious anymore… and I don’t.
Bell states we should live as believers now and not just wait for heaven… and you disagree.
He states that he does not want Hell to come to earth… and you state he does not believe in hell…. hmmm don’t even get that one at all… why would he not want something he does not believe in to… well I most likely would waste a good part of the day trying to point out your major oversight on that one…
You claim he does not believe we have a sin problem when he states that we do sin… hmmm…
Bell affirms the scripture by stating that we must trust the Holy Spirit was there while the bible was being put together in it’s current form… so he affirms that we must trust the Holy Spirit to truly trust the bible…
and you claim that is a low view? It is a high view of both the Holy Spirit and the bible….
So, you have just shown yourself to not be able to read and comprehend… and shown that you are lying against Bell who in the very quotes proves you lie…
Good job!
iggy
PB,
How about we give a more complete quotation, rather than prooftexting to create a straw-man?
Picking up from where you left off in VE:
Giving part of the truth for the purpose of deception is lying, PB.
Repent.
Pastorboy,
You seem to have a heart for God, but you are unsuited to the type of ministry you’ve set up for yourself. Perhaps you should be pursuing different ministries that are better suited to teh way God has gifted you.
PB-
I’m sorry, PB, but you do not understand Bell at all. The reason you don’t like him is because you have already declared him a false teacher and now you refuse to listen to what he has to say. The TRUTH, PB, is that Bell believes salvation is by grace through faith alone in Jesus Christ. The truth, PB, is that Bell does teach sanctification and our being conformed to the image of Christ.
Also, Bell DOES believe in hell. He simply wishes we would emphasize what Jesus emphasized.
As far as scripture? I rarely see a pastor who grants more authority and inspiration to scripture as Bell does. It is a collection of stories, PB. I dont see why you take issue with that.
PB, in your so-called Masters training, if it is in theological studies, they should be teaching you how to read the works of such and such a person charitably (that means, in such a way that you try honestly and earnestly to understand their position and why they hold it). After doing this, they should be teaching you how to articulate that person’s theology in a way that is true to that person (regardless of whether you agree or not – at this stage in the process you should not be inserting your own opinions of right or wrong). Once you have done this, you would be graded on your ability to comprehend the nuances of a person’s thought and if you have done a good job (i.e. you havent misrepresented the person) you can then move on to critical analysis and begin sharing your own opinion.
My guess is that your program does not teach this. That is a shame. It is a terrible thing to watch a person who does not understand a person attack a person. That is just pure ignorance.
FYI, a couple more notes on the quoted section from VE:
The only sola Scriptura and “inspiration” being denied by Bell here is the strictest interpretation of this extra-Biblical doctrine which suggests that the Bible is completely independent of the context in which it was written and the manner in which it was canonized.
In footnote #64 from the above section of VE, Bell states:
ChrisL
Thanks for sharing those passages in their context. My copy of VE is on loan to someone now.
I think PB once again owes Bell an apology…
And I am sure we will wait until the forevermore that PB denies will come… to come before it happens.
Weird to condemn someone for believing in the forevermore and claim that one still believes in Heaven… That one is truly mysterious to me…how can you affirm and deny the New Heaven and New Earth are not forevermore?
iggy
Chad,
This is a quote from your sermon. It’s a bit difficult in some of your sermon to know if you are talking only to those who have chosen to recognize that they are reconciled or to everyone including those who have not yet chosen to recognize that they have been reconciled.
Anyway, could you make the statement that you made above to unbelievers (your pov – those who have not yet chosen to see themselves as reconciled), or only to those who have chosen to see themselves as reconciled?
If you could make the statement to those who have not yet chosen to see themselves as reconciled, what “light” are you talking about?
Amy,
Everyone has been reconciled. This is true of you whether you believe it or not and whether you accept it or not. Paul’s point is that you are already reconciled to God – peace has been made. Therefore, BE reconciled. That is to say, live a life or repentance (a changed life), one that does not trust in the world or its idols but in the Living God who loves you and died for you while you were still a weak, sinning enemy of His.
Those who “come out of the bunker” and live into the reality that is true about them are to be a beacon of light to those who continue to disbelieve the truth about them. We are to be ministers of reconciliation – that is, we are to bear witness to the love of God in Christ and the defeat of sin and death so that others too might live fully into the image of God in which they were created. God desires we become fully human and have life abundantly. The beauty of the Good News is this life can start for you today – now. AND, it can last for all eternity with our Maker.
I’d be happy to extrapolate further if you wish. But that is it in a nutshell.
Good question.
peace.
Of course the ultimate irony here is that most of these people couldn’t even refute these so-called false teachers well enough to keep them out of the churches where they had friends, family, and other relational connections, much less do so well enough to convince anonymous web visitors. I would guess that there’s far less convincing and far more gathering of the already convinced.
Chad: Everyone has been reconciled. This is true of you whether you believe it or not and whether you accept it or not. Paul’s point is that you are already reconciled to God – peace has been made. Therefore, BE reconciled. That is to say, live a life or repentance (a changed life), one that does not trust in the world or its idols but in the Living God who loves you and died for you while you were still a weak, sinning enemy of His.
Sorry, I keep hitting “submitt” too soon:
Chad, you keep conflating reconciled with born again/justified/saved. They are not the same thing. Reconciliation **can** lead to justification/salvation, as is a prequisite of it, but is not the same thing as.
I agree that the whole of mankind is reconciled (i.e., God is at peace with). Mankind can now approach God in faith in order to receive justification/salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. Reconciliation makes this possible and is in an integral part of the salvation economy, but until one is born again/justified/saved they have no light to share. You have to be a citizen of a country before you can be it’s ambassador. Being at peace with a nation’s ruler does not make you a citizen. It does allow you to approach the ruler to seek that citizenship however. God being reconciled to mankind does not make one saved. The emnity between the two has been removed from God’s viewpoint, but unless one believes in faith in His son one will still die in their sins.
Yes, I did say that.
I am guessing there is a technical problem with quoting at the moment?
jh,
too bad you hit submit too soon…I thought you’d finally come around…
John,
One might call this, in the lingo of the scriptures, a life unto repentance.
Echoing Calvin and Barth and so many others before and after I see the main proclamation of the gospel as being this: You ARE saved, therefore REPENT! (note that this is different than how the message is often sent: REPENT, and then you will be saved).
The latter puts the onus on man – it turns salvation into a work. As though God is just sitting in heaven waiting to push the “saved” button if we make a good choice.
Rather, we have been saved. Many of us are being saved. Many of us will be saved.
What is salvation? Is it just getting to go to heaven and getting out of hell? Or is it much more than that? When we can get our understanding of salvation sorted out than this make perfect sense…at least it has started to for me.
peace,
Chad
lol nc
Chad is this coming from a Calvinistic eternal election perspective?
I would agree the definition of salvation is much more robust than “avoiding hell”.
“What is salvation? Is it just getting to go to heaven and getting out of hell? Or is it much more than that?”
Salvation is expansive, but if you begin to remove elements of it one by one, I petition the court to leave “get out of hell” intact, even if it the only element that remains.
Thank you.
Chad,
Thank you for your answer. But I don’t think you answered my last question.
Let me word it a bit differently in light of your last explanation. Do those “reconciled ones who have not yet recognized that they are reconciled” have a light within,” in light of this statement:
I see where you are going with this. You want to know if we are dead in sin or not, correct? Why not just ask?
We cannot make the first move towards God on our own. The good news, however, is that God has moved towards us. There is not a “light within” the person who is still locked in the bunker refusing to step out into the reality Christ has won for them – not in the same sense as the person who has repented and is now reflecting the light of truth. However, we are ALL created in the image of God. So in that sense, one might say there is a “light” in each of us. We are all here by God’s grace – period. The sad hell of it is that so many people live their lives in complete ignorance or flat out denial of that “light.” They do everything to extinguish it or replace it with some other idol. They are missing out on the salvation that is theirs to grasp and live into. Sadly, this could have eternal implications.
I hope that sheds some “light” on it
peace.
John,
I’m not a Calvinist. I believe in free grace to all. I was only pointing out that even Calvin caught this gem of the gospel and what its inherent message really was – you ARE saved (by the finished and completed work of Christ), therefore, BE reconciled (i.e. repent!).
I am Calvinist in the sense that I DO believe in election – its just not individual but corporate (all of creation).
peace.
Chad
Chad,
Just to make sure I can state your position correctly before agreeing or refuting it: are you saying you believe that you agree with classic evangelical theology that there is only one way to God — i.e., Jesus, and therefore you reject the label “universalist” in that you can’t get to God through Buddah, Mohammed, Hari Krishna, et. al. , but you diverge from classic evangelical theology in that in the end, at some undetermined time in eternity future, all will be saved BECAUSE of what Jesus Christ did. Is this a fair restatement of what you believe?
“you ARE saved (by the finished and completed work of Christ), therefore, BE reconciled (i.e. repent!).”
Semantics. What happens to those who ARE saved but refuse to believe they are?
Rick,
they burn in hell…to the glory of God…
John-
Thank you John for being so charitable.
First, let me applaud you. PB, if you are taking notes, THIS is how you should be reading and commenting others. John shows how one properly comprehends another’s thoughts before stabbing them in the heart
Yes, I affirm the first part of your statement. As to the second half I would adjust it by not being so certain of the future salvation. I would say that IF God chooses to save all people it will be BECAUSE of the finished work of Jesus Christ and nothing else. And to be sure, it will not be a free pass. There will be judgment. This judgment could be a refining fire. One so pure and so holy and so powerful and so mighty that it might just cause EVERY knee to bow and confess that Jesus is Lord.
Is there a hell? Yes. But to repeat a quote by C.S. Lewis – the lock is on the inside.
peace,
Chad
They live a lie, sadly, and never realize who they were created to reflect and enjoy for ever and ever. As for the future? I dunno. But I have hope that the Hound of Heaven will not give up on us and may just surprise us all.
peace.
That is so very emergent of you, Chad. I remind you, I am a pastor teacher who is OLDER than you. I refuse to be rebuked and I always know when I am speaking without error.
So here is a sentence I am sure is without error.
Every sinner who winds up with Christ in eternity will have arrived there 100% by grace.
No good works – no church membership – no baptism – no doctrinal slants. All grace, which is what grace is all about anyway…
Pope Rick,
I agree.
Did you think I would not?
Chad – you are such a legalist! BTW – who cares what C.S. Lewis believes? Did you think I would let you get away with that?
Now Wesley, he’s a different story. He actually WAS a legalist as opposed to my favorite preacher Charles Finney who was a perfectionist, (actually a doctrinal heretic)
Chad,
You and I hold much the same view…
Have you read Maj Ian Thomas or Bob George?
Bob was the one that I hated so much, I dedicated my life to take him down… then I read Hebrews… then I read Classic Christianity… and was found by Grace.
I had been saved at least 5 years or more before this happened.
iggy
Iggy-
I have not read either of them. Should I? The only stuff I read outside of Scripture is Rick’s musings
I was originally going to phrase my question that way – dead in sin – but I decided to reread your sermon before I wrote the question and noticed this:
So I asked you the “light” question. And I think, by your answer, I understand this:
You believe that:
1)People can only come to God through God’s initiative. They are indeed dead in their sins, unable to respond to his sacrifice.
2)And yet, they do have some “light” in them that would cause them to choose God, because they are created in His image.
This is what I think you’re saying, though I admit I don’t really know.
Furthermore, your last sentence as well as your response to John adds more confusion:
And yet Scripture says,
So why did the hound of Heaven provide us with His Word that has these kinds of ideas in it if he wanted us to have hope that all would eventually be saved? Was he simply trying to scare us into accepting him?
Was He lying?
Or are these and other similar ideas all to be interpreted differently?
“Have you read Maj Ian Thomas or Bob George?”
I’ve read Maj Ian Thomas and Boy George, does that count?
Amy,
You dont have this hope? What is God’s desire (hope) for all of creation?
I would hope that every Christian would hope and pray that heaven be busting full and hell be empty. Why hope for anything less?
From a human viewpoint, yes, why hope for anything less?
But I have the Holy Spirit and I have Scripture. I have hope that all who truly believe/trust in Jesus Christ will be saved, because of Scripture and the Holy Spirit.
To believe that hell is not real and that God will eventually save everyone I have to turn my back on that same Scripture which I believe.
It’s Satan’s work to rip verses and whole concepts out of Scripture.
And by the way, my previous comment on Duke? It was the way Scriptures were treated that was an attack on the men’s faith.
God’s Spirit will not always strive with man. Being oft reproved will one day be cut off. It is one thing to have a human hope, it is another to believe God’s Word even when unpleasant.
Amy-
I am glad we can both claim scripture and the Holy Spirit as our guide.
Perhaps you should take a lesson from John and ask me before making statements like this. I did not say hell is not real or that God WILL eventually save everyone.
As for your Duke comment I responded to you on that. Perhaps you missed it, as you have missed my meaning here.
You didn’t answer my question: What is God’s desire (hope) for all of creaton?
“What is God’s desire (hope) for all of creaton?”
That they would all shut up!!
Rick and Amy
This has nothing to do with a “human hope.” If this were human driven we would LOVE to see justice the way we humans meat out justice. If it were up to me I would love to see those who are wicked and evil burn in hell. But it is not up to me. It is up to God. And the God of Scripture leads us to see again and again that He is a God that continues to pull us with chords of love and feeds us even when we reject his oustretched hand (Hos. 11). He is the God that cries out “forgive them” to the very people that murder him and the God that calls us to love our enemies and pray for them when I would much rather curse them to hell. The God of scripture leaves the 99 to find the one and does not stop searching until the lost coin is found. And at the end of the story we hear of a great throng of people, too many to count, around the throne and a river of life flowing out of the city with trees of life on either side….for what? This is a great mystery but one that I think speaks to the God who’s love in far more expansive and infinite than my own (or even your’s, Rick) and should he choose to save the entire human race from beginning to end I will praise Him even more. We have all of eternity to watch this unfold.
If you want the human hope of justice look to our court systems or capital where might is right and justice means elimination of the guilty. If you want the hope of the Bible and the sort of justice God brings about look no further than Calvary where the innocent was slain for the guilty.
That’s scandalous.
Rick – LOL!
Gonna go watch some Olympics. Shutting up now
peace.
Doug Pagitt Bait and Swtch:
Bait: God will deal the same with buddhists, Muslims, Jews, and Christians- they will all be reconciled and restored on the last day and enter into the new heaven and the new earth.
Switch: I don’t believe in universalism.
PB – sometimes I wonder how you can sleep at night telling such whoppers…
PB,
Once again… as if it matters as you cannot seem to comprehend this… Doug is not saying one that follows Allah is saved by following Allah…. or the Buddhist that worships his family and does not believe in a “God”… will be saved… or a Jew who rejects Jesus will be saved…
He is saying that one can believe in Jesus and live culturally as a Muslim, buddhist, Jew as you do as an cultural American Christian.
You constantly twist this into your own perverse little idea. Then commit libelous slander against Doug…
So maybe this is way above your head and comprehension level as to even begin on the basics to explain this seems too huge a task…
Please just go and preach Christ and leave the discernment to someone more gifted.
iggy
I notice that pastorboy disappeared as soon as his poor reasearch about Bell was revealed for what it is. I suppose he felt that enough time and comments had passed that no one would notice his gaffe.
bait and switch…
Bait: PB: “Rob Bell… blah blah blah”
Switch: PB: “Doug Pagitt… blah blah blah”
iggy
Iggy: “Blah blah blah PB is terrible blah blah”
Joe C,
Now, PB is not terrible… I would never state that about him. I am sure there are some redeemable factors about him…
It is that all he ever says, is blown over by the slightest breeze… he builds huge cases that tumble when one even glances at his “facts”…
But, I would never state PB is terrible…
iggy
Chad,
Please don’t talk down to me and tell me to take a lesson from John.
I said this:
(Chad’s response):
No, you did not literally say that “hell is not real or that God WILL eventually save everyone.” But you’re doing all you can to present salvation for all in the end as a legitimate belief. An empty hell. You’ve basically tried to turn the discussion into “Why don’t you want to have hope?” instead of discussing scriptures that say differently.
What I feel or hope isn’t the issue at all. Whether or not I can accept God and His plans on His terms is the issue. Understand Him or His plans absolutely? Certainly not. Treating Scriptures that present His Justice as things that I can ignore because I don’t like the results? No.
Chad’s earlier comments:
Plus 246 (too long to copy)
As for the Duke comment, I did see your answer, and that’s what I’m responding to. I thought you were implying earlier that men at Duke learned orthodoxy without orthopraxy, but that now there is a marriage of the two.The men I mentioned earlier were not lacking in “orthopraxy” – it was the shaking of their “orthodoxy” that has caused their root faith to be less strong. Oppresive, in one case.
So…since God allows people to go to hell then we should just be ok with God’s justice and not see such an ending as the tragedy that it is?
It’s a tragedy, Amy. It may be God’s will to let people go, but nonetheless it is the consigning of the imago dei to eternal damnation.
I don’t think there’s anything in Scripture that says God will be happy abou it either.
And I think that’s what Chad is getting at…
Is it such a betrayal of Scripture to want all people to know the redemption of Christ?
If he’s mistaken, I doubt that Chad will lose anything simply because he wanted everyone to love God and to be with God for all eternity….
If anything it makes Chad the kind of Christian that my lost friends will actually want to listen to because they’ll hear about the God who would rather die than live without us…and that’s exactly the way made for us by Jesus.
I don’t see that being unscriptural…
In fact I see it being faithful to the letter and the heart of what our texts tell us.
Perhaps you should stick with what people actually say, rather than pretending they said something they never did.
first rule of dialogue:
I get to interpret me.
I get to say what I mean.
second rule:
I get to say who is a piece of crap, usually in a way that will allure them to Christ.
PB asked which Brian McLaren and Doug Pagitt we are to believe…
Not the one’s he misrepresents.
Again… you totally miss-read Doug…
And Brian has never affirmed Homosexuality as OK… he states we need to look at human sexuality as a whole and further more states that we need to practice purity….
So once again… PB is shown to be wrong… wrong… wrong…
But will he grace anyone with an apology? Will PB ever admit he just cannot read with comprehension and takes a single quote out of context to build his house of lies and libel slander?
We can only pray he does…
iggy
third rule:
once said status as crap is established, I get to interpret you and rule 1 no longer applies to you.
Amy,
This is an honest question. What do you hope to accomplish here? In order you’ve gone from one contributor here to another and we’ve all wronged you (just about). First, I wronged you, then Chris L, then Tim Reed, now Chad.
We’ve all misrepresented you, talked down to you and been intellectually dishonest. I don’t get it. How can we all do that?
I forgot the whole Nathan flap…
There’s only one person common to all those conflicts, Joe.
Brings this to mind:
ouch.
and I’m snarky…
Oh, SNAP!
Chris, I was trying to subtle.
despair.com is one of my favorite sites, right up there with bumwine.com
This is for anyone who has made a comment about my discussion with Chad:
Once again:
Chad
I NEVER SAID HE DID.
I made the following statement because it is what I believe. The statement is ABOUT ME and what I cannot do:
Why did I make this statement? Because I felt like I needed to explain why I CANNOT agree to the kinds of ideas that Chad had suggested.
(Amy)
________
(nc)
Nor do I.
Then why hasn’t he said so? That’s not what the discussion is about, whether or not God is happy.
I have never pretended that anyone said something they never did.
Joe,
It is amazing, how you can all do that, isn’t it? And not just to me . . . . I will say that Chad has treated me with respect generally, as I have him and I don’t think it’s helpful at all for you to lump him and make a big deal out of my asking him not to talk down to me.
I see the quote about taking a lesson from John H as disrespectful, just as I did when he made it to Pastorboy. I have taken a lot of time to try to figure out what Chad is saying, especially regarding the way he uses the word “reconciliation.” I asked him respectfully to please not talk in such a way. As a counsellor-to-be I don’t understand why you have a problem with that.
Chad is a little slippery, but a good brother nonetheless!
oy…
talk about keying off of 1 part of the whole comment…
sometimes, Amy, I feel like discussions with you is an adventure in missing the point…
And church history is my graduate degree…
Neil
OK – I’m hopelessly behind on this… but I did find it interesting the pastorboy quoted the Bhagavad Gita as an authoritative source… what if one of our “cronies had done that – WOW, there’d be blood in the blog for sure…
Neil
My doctrate is in humility, and my thesis on Practiced Humility is without a doubt the best and most comprehensive treatise on the subject in church history.
yeah…given the take on history by some on this site I’m not too impressed with people and their training in “history”….
it always ends up sounding like really rabid propaganda sometimes…
Amy-
I am sorry you took offense to my suggestion you imitate John H. (psst, John, I am sure you are worthy of imitation!)
However, Amy, you DID say this:
Why would you say this if you were not offering an interpretation of what my beliefs? You later admit that this is NOT what I was saying so why say it at all?
Amy, what is your problem with holding out hope that hell will be empty and all will be saved? Does it make you a better Christian or more “in” with God to hope the opposite – to hope that many will be in hell? How is this constructive? Do you fear that there will be no need to tell anyone about Jesus if you can’t be convinced that their eternal destiny is entirely dependent upon you convincing them they are headed there unless they convert?
Does God desire that none should perish?
Does God show mercy on whom He will show mercy?
Did Jesus die for the sins of the whole world?
In Christ, is God reconciling ALL things to Himself or not?
Does God desire all to be saved?
Then why can’t you?
Do you imagine that when Christ returns he will be upset with those who thought him to grace-full? Can you imagine Christ, the one who asked forgiveness for even those nailing him to a cross chiding those who hoped and prayed for the forgiveness of those who still crucify him to this day? I am trying to picture the God you are wanting me to believe in – the one who says, “Shame on you Chad – you thought I was love? Hell no. You can burn with the rest of them just because you erred on the side of grace over wrath.”
We ALL should be praying for an empty hell if for no other reason than to hope like hell we (I) are saved from it.
peace,
Chad
Rick,
I shaved all my body hair as a tribute to Michael Phelps! If you thought I was slippery before….
Since Chad stops short of universalism, I look at his view as a balance to the “God only chooses a few” people on the other side. And while Chad “hopes” all might be saved, the other side rejoices in the fact that most will de damned.
Wow Amy,
I like Chad, he’s pretty much a friend of mine so “lumping him in” is pretty much OK. And Amy, your counselor statement is pretty much out there so I’m going to let it go. Nah, no I’m not. As a Counselor to be, if I saw this situation play itself out I’d point out what I see to be a glaring “coincidence” that everyone who disagrees with you eventually gets smacked down.
If you didn’t like it, well sometimes that’s Okay too.
Peace
Joe,
This Yuengling is for you
Cheers.
Chad,
I had one last night buddy. A black and tan. Hey, serious question, can you mail that stuff through UPS? If you can, can I front you the dough?
Joe,
I imagine the beer would get through fine if I wrapped it in anthrax.
Actually, I imagine it is fine to UPS it. Shoot me an email if you really want some – I’d be happy to help a friend in need.
Rick F said: “the other side rejoices in the fact that most will de damned.”
Who precisely on “the other side rejoices in the fact that most will be damned”?
In my mind that’s a pretty bold juxtaposition to place over and against the “near universalism” of Chad so I’d ask for you to back that up with some evidence. Something really basic like quotes or objective verifiable statements where actual people on “the other side” (whatever that means to you) are rejoicing in the damnation of souls.
The reason I’m asking is that I would very much like to know specifically by name those whom you are describing (and for which you can provide evidence to back up your claim) so that I might openly rebuke them at DefCon for their virulently anti-Christ and unscriptural behavior.
In Christ,
CD
Chad,
What is wrong with believing that Scripture teaches that there is a hell where people suffer forever? That is what I believe. Why can’t you handle my belief? Does believing that make me some sort of person who WANTS people to go to hell? That’s what you seem to imply.
You talked on another thread about people wanting people to be damned and said it had come up in a recent discussion. Were you talking about this discussion? If so, why are you so completely twisting this conversation?
That idea isn’t in Scripture.
I absolutely do not HOPE that many will be in hell. Where have I said that? Where have I ever said that? I simply believe it’s going to happen, because of Scripture.
How is this constructive?
Since you’re presenting me as one who hopes that their will be many in hell then ICAN”T answer that question, because the “THIS” in the question is a false misrepresetation of who I am and what I believe.
If you want to talk about how/why my accepting Scripture about people rejecting Jesus and about hell is constructive – well, it’s constructive simply because it shows that I’m willing to accept what I believe Scripture is teaching, in faith, EVEN THOUGH HEY honestly if I were God I would have done things differently. But indeed what an awful thing to think, that I could do things “better than God.”
And whatever in the world makes you think that I would think that someones eternal destiny is entirely dependent upon my convincing them that they are headed there unless they convert?
You keep bringing up the “hope” issue and keep presenting me as one who is at fault because I don’t “hope” that hell will be empty. Why do you have such a problem that there are many scriptures that I simply can’t cast aside?
I imagine one can hope hell will be empty of humans, because God desires that none should perish. However, the Bible clearly teaches that will not be the case.
In this instance, I would say hope needs to be tempered by the reality of what Jesus had to say about hell.
The “Calvinist” in me reads and answers Chad’s questions in this way:
- Does God desire that none should perish? All of His Elect.
- Does God show mercy on whom He will show mercy? Absolutely. He has chosen who he will save, the Elect. Those who are not “elected” to salvation are simply passed over.
- Did Jesus die for the sins of the whole world? No. He died for “those who would believe, the “whosoevers” are a limited group by virtue of the fact that not all will believe</strong>- In Christ, is God reconciling ALL things to Himself or not?Not if “all” means every single human being ever born or that ever will be born. I don’t find that in Scripture.</strong>- Does God desire all to be saved?All of the Elect WILL be saved.
Not looking for a discussion here, just throwing that out as a point that not everyone reads things the same way. Doesn’t make them good/bad/better/worse…as long as we’re nice about disagreeing with each other.
I don’t revel in the thought that people do and will go to Hell. I just accept it because I read it in Scripture. I wish it weren’t true…but don’t can’t find a loophole.
I love you my brother in Christ, Keith. I continue to pray for your doctrinal growth!
Man, sorry about the tags. I didn’t get one closed somewhere…God closes tags on those whom He will close tags.
Right back atcha, Brother Rick!!!
Whoosh!
Keith, that was another Keith doll being burned.
Patiently waiting on your reply to #283 Rick Frueh…
I thought it was getting hot in here.
I’m off to start reading “The Doctrines of Grace” by JM Boice. Good night all. Behave, Rick!
That was funny. Good reading and good night, Keith.
Well, nothing in and of itself. The problem comes when you insist that it must be so. I do not believe scripture is as definitive on this point as you make it out to be.
The point is we shouldn’t be so quick to think the cross was some nice thing that happened in the past whose power is only realized and applied if a person is lucky enough to “get it.” Christ died for ALL the world (sorry, Keith). God IS reconciling ALL creation unto himself (sorry again, Keith). These are truths that are far more definitive than our suppositions about hell.
I ask:
And you say becuase it isn’t in scripture? How can you say that? You haven’t answered any of the questions I have asked – for starters – what is God’s desire for humanity? Is it that they be saved or that they go to hell?
Why shouldn’t you hope for the same?
What else are you saying then, Amy?
Let me ask you this. Amy, what is salvation?
What is salvation for the mentally handicapped who cannot accept Christ or never heard the name?
What is salvation for the orphans I know in Ethiopia who will never live beyond the age of 13 due to HIV they contracted by no fault of their own?
What is salvation for the teenager raped and burned at a stake in Darfur who has never heard the name of Jesus?
My problem with your rendering of a few pet verses of scripture is it makes the gospel myopic. It suggests that God in Christ is not doing something absolutely mind-blowing in all the cosmos! Amy, the Good News is not good news just because
people (those we convince to convert) can now be saved. It is GOOD NEWS because God has done something phenomenal in the world out of his undying love for the world.
I have no doubt that the suffering in the world will be made right. I have no doubt that the teenager in Darfur who knew hell on earth will have her tears wiped away by her heavenly Father. I have no doubt that the orphan who dies of AIDS will be ushered into a HOME where they will know love that has no limit. I have no doubt that the mentally handicapped will be able to one day confess the name of Jesus and worship him for all eternity. This is GOOD NEWS!
I do not doubt these things because the God of scripture IS love and has reconciled the world to himself in Jesus Christ. This is why I hope hell will be empty. Not because it is “nice” or because it is what I would do but because it will display the magnificent grace and glory of a Sovereign God who has declared that this too shall be made right.
peace,
Chad
Well, at least you can admit that this is the Calvinist in you and not scripture
I think this would be your epitaph, Keith. Gonna say something that will rock the boat but hey, not looking for a discussion
Chad,
Those are some great questions. I hope you make it to Mi someday. Actually, you know if you could get UNC/Duke Tickets I’d come down there. Just saying…
Chad,
Because of your many comments in different threads here, tonight I recalled what you’ve been saying about your hopes for hell (being empty). While my friend and I were singing, worshiping and praying tonight, I mentioned how it was my true desire for hell to be empty, and that God’s will is done no matter what. We prayed hell would be empty. And it wasn’t wrong to pray that. Thanks man.
Joe
Joe M – You could come down in Sept. and we could camp out for 3 days in hopes of getting a lottery ticket that will give us a 1 in 1 billion chance of getting one ticket for the game
Sound fun?
Joe C – That made me smile. I wonder what the church of Jesus Christ around the world would look like if every Christian prayed that hell be empty and loved everyone as though we were practicing to spend eternity together in God’s kingdom? My hunch is we would see just how big the harvest really is.
peace,
Chad
I didn’t realize the women’s soccer games were that popular
POM!